I Have kind of a tickelish question,
ClarkCustoms
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hello Everyone,
I was just curious to know if we as everyday fellow woodworkers hold ourselves at the same level as our TV brethren or do we think their better than we are?
Keep in mind,I know what they do is very nice work on the projects that they do build but what we see is not always as it seems because we as everyday woodworkers don’t have people being paid to edit out our mistakes.
So What do you all think? Do we hold TV woodworkers at some kind of higher level?
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
Edited 6/21/2007 11:16 am ET by ClarkCustoms
Replies
To some level, I think communities generally hold people of celebrity status at some level of awe. As a photographer, I admired people who appeared to create beautiful images all the time. Then I paid a bundle to study with one, of international acclaim, for a week and realized he had very little on me. I saw his mistakes. And in the same situation, I got award winning prints too!
Norm & David Marks are fine craftsmen. To some degree, they are able to accomplish things a little faster or easier due to the corporate support - aka free tools. They obviously have knowledge and skill. There are plenty in this community who are just as talented. I admire the TV personalities more for having the talent to stand out in their profession by promoting themselves to get to a position of fame. Marketing is my greatest challenge.
Greg
•••••••
Exo 35:30-35
Loaded ? While Norm has done very much to promote WW and his sponsors, He doesn't go into the Fine woodworking aspect as much as David Marks, who's work is far superior to Norms and he never promoted and particular Sponsor. Then there is Matt Fox(Room by Room) He made me cringe and "laugh"
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I can't speak for anyone here, but imho, I do hold those guys higher than myselft. Why? Because they are better than I am....for now I hope. But here's the deal. I give great praise to D. Marks because without TV, I doubt that I would be woodworker, so I feel I owe him. Also he is a great person that I have taken classes with. The great thing that seperates David from the rest is, he is not "given" any tools. Most of his tools he bought at auction and refurbed. Even the $2800 multirouter was bought at an auction and was all rusted up. I just enjoy watching him woodwork without having Delta tools shoved down my throat, like the tool belted one.
Those guys are on TV for a reason. I don't necess. think they are better than all of us, just check out Rob's work!!!! But for now, they are better than I am and I think they are due my respect for what they build. There is a lot of Knotheads here that also deserve our respect for what they build. I have seen some gorgeous work here. I am just honored and happy I get to participate in this craft. I think all of us woodworkers are lucky in life. That's just MHO.
Jeff
No. The're just woodworkers and people just like us. More skilled than I ? Don't know. Less skilled ? Don't know. It really is hard to tell given it's a TV show and we get to see only what the producers want us to see. But I still watch what I can , when I can. Sometimes it's fun just to watch woodworking. I might even pick up a trick or two, although it's been sometime. I'm still waiting for more intricate and complex projects to be aired. Maybe that could be a new show entirely ? ( Hello PBS, are you listening ? )
Paul
Paul,
I think your observation that:
"It really is hard to tell given it's a TV show and we get to see only what the producers want us to see".
is the essential point.
You can extend this realisation to magazines and any other published media. I enjoy many of the projects within FWW, for instance; and much of the reader's work even more so. However, who knows whether the woodworkers involved are better, worse or exactly equal compared to.....?
Sam Maloof, James Krenov and so forth were just woodworkers that happened to get publicised. Personally I don't care for most of their furniture but this is merely personal taste, not A Final Judgement of Arbiter Lataxe (cue the rumble of the guillotine, etc.) requiring they be Banished to Obscurity or Worse.
Anyway, such famous woodworkers are better (or worse) compared to who? Is it not a queer habit of Western thought (embedded in the language really) to insist on putting everything and everyone in a huge hierarchy, with sub-hierarchies down to a depth of N levels - The Great Chain of Being, as it used to be known?
Television Producers and other would-be manipulators of our minds often try to re-order their protoges within some hierarchy of popularity, as they know we Westerners tend to approve The Higher Ups (as they were once known) whereas we may sneer at the hoi-polloi. Where once The Higher Ups were automatically popular (famous), now one may become a Higher Up by gathering popularity points from many fans.
Personally I never compare the inherent value of sandcastles over 3 feet high with purple tulips (to give one example). So why should I so-compare the work of, say, Ray Pine with that of Richard Jones? They are just different, not more or less highly placed in some Great Book of Worthiness. I can like some examples of both their work and never have to fret about where they should go on an imagined Great List.
Of course, sometimes a comparison is relevant; but usually only to serve another motive, such as a buying choice. Such choices are based on completely subjective criteria, serving personal desires for the most part. So why assume they are somehow universal and that all people of good sense ought to agree with our criteria?
Not having to decide where to put things, or individuals and their products, in the Great Chain is a Great Relief. I recommend to all that they wash this hierarchical way of thinking out of their heads. Suddenly one sees clearly a zillion things one had previousy dismissed as too "low" to be worth one's attention.........Also, the products of some Appointed Woodworking Emperor suddenly themselves turn out to have no clothes (ie lack pleasing proportion, shape, texture or other essential aspects of design).
It is, anyway, a dangerous thing to become a fan, as you find yourself screaming hysterical approval for whatever the object of your ardent admiration does (including the Bad Thangs) and dismissing his or her rivals out of hand, even when the rivals make products or recommendations that would, in fact, be useful to you. Norm, for instance, is useful to some and a trap for others, depending on who they are and what they want their woodworking to achieve. Why appoint yourself his fan or his enemy? He offers what he offers.
As to celebrities, I fear the very label tends to cause my lip to curl so any objective judgement of mine, concerning their doings, flies out the window straight away. It's a feeling of anti-fan-y . :-) (Oh dear, I have swung too far and may have to prevent myself barking in the marketplace).
Lataxe, a democrat (small "d")
Well said...like asking who is/was the greatest rock band, classical composer, director, diva, writer,etc.
I blame Dante for this hiearchecal thinking.
Now, who makes the best chisels?
Neil
Well said...like asking who is/was the greatest rock band, classical composer, director, diva, writer,etc.
Stones, Copeland, Hitchcock, Midler, Homer.
Very well put, Lataxe. We can certainly learn from others but when it comes to " doing " it's a one man show where we're all different.
Paul
Hi Jim,
I don't watch TV all that much anymore, would rather be in the shop.
Years ago I used to watch The Woodwrights Shop (my favorite), This Old House, New Yankee Workshop, and a slew of others including some done by D. Marks (can't remember the name).
I can't recall one piece that I could seriously compare in quality, execution, you name it, that would compare to what I've seen from the woodworkers here in Knots.
So I guess to answer your question, Do we hold TV woodworkers at some kind of higher level?, I'd have to say they aren't even close (meaning they have a log way to go), except in my case, as I'm just getting started in Fine Woodworking.
Also, I've never seen any of these TV gentlemens pieces posted in The Gallery in Knots either.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 6/21/2007 1:54 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I think you could hand Norm the blueprints to a fifteen thousand square foot custom home and he could lead a crew that could frame it for you (complicated stairs, roof plan, the works).
I also think you could hand him a drawing of almost any piece of furniture and he would be able to knock out a reasonable facsimile. It may not be an authentic reproduction, but it will look reasonably close.
I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Norm's, but he can build. He has the spatial gift.
And he has an enormous portfolio of completed work - carpentry, millwork, furniture, etc.
You have to give him his due.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/21/2007 2:25 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Poster,
Yeah, but he can't hold a candle to Red Green, who can do the same thing, but with duct tape.
Ray
True...Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
I have personally seen Norm Abrams work at a woodworking show in Louisville a few years back. The stuff may look nice on camera but once you look at it up close you may be surprised at the quality. I've never seen David Marks work in person but I would imagine his work is top notch. Roy Underhill doesn't really make anything other than an occasional chair or small table.
I'd like to start with a survey...did anyone read AtLAX'S writing?
a bit lengthy, no offense.
As far as these TV WWers, it is obvious that they are very skilled. They also Dumby it down a lot. I am sure that there skill level goes way beyond what they do.
they are doing projects that the guy next door can do, not what the FWW subscriber can do.
Its all about the marketing. Who, aside from us, would want to sit though a 30 part series on how to make a Chippendale tilt top table?
All the best, and Atlax, just busting your chops...http://www.gedaliahblumfurniture.com
Yes-I always read the writings of that person, who cannot be described as a sycophant. Trouble is , half the time I am unable to understand what he is saying....Philip Marcou
Clark, Its great to see Norm and others go to a particular museam take pictures and measurements of a piece maybe 150 yrs old and build a replica piece in the workshop for us to admire.
What I would like to see is thoes pieces been built with the tools that were available to to the original craftsman. Then one could make genuine comparisons. Regds. BoysieI'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
They are better than me. I don't know that their projects are as good as 80% better than projects we see in knots gallery. They are definitely smart wood workers. I can't think of a time when I could have come up with a faster, quicker, or better way of doing something. I would love to be a fly on the wall during the show just to see what really happens. If the ever put out a bloopers show, I would love to see it.
I've seen guys post photos of their work and it is really hard to know if it is good unless I can see it in person. Alignment of joints and finish tell a big story of wheather someone knows their stuff. But you just can't see it in most photos.
I belonged to woodworking club and one guy produced a lot of work but he was a slob in his work. I can't stand slobs who pass themselves off a craftsmen.
It's either right or it's not and it shows!
You are so right. My early stuff looked fine until you got up close to it. I never too mush of a problem with joinery, but finishes were a stumbling block. I've attached a photo of a piece I made almost 10 years ago. It was pretty poor from a finish stand point, both in color and quality; yet today, applying what I've learned about photography, I could have that thing look like it belonged in museum, as long as I didn't take any close ups.
The other photo shows a close up of a tea caddie I made. Shots like that will give you a more reliable way to judge someone's work.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I agree... not enough emphasis is put on finishing on ww tv shows yet it is the single most important step in a project and it makes the biggest impression when a person looks at a piece of fine furniture.
Rob, tell the truth you took the Photos in one of the Muesems Norm, visits .BoysieI'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
I think TV personalities have talent, but not as much as they would like us to believe. True, Norm is good, but if he didn't have a personality, he would never be given a TV show. In other words, personality and TV presence is the most important thing. I see it on the cooking shows when they show behind the scenes of how the show is made. Cooking is not the most important. You could say that with some cooking skills, ther're just actors who can cook. Their staffs do all the work to make sure the recipes come out as they are supposed to. (See Emeril). I know they can cook better than I can, (or at least faster), but cooking is a personal thing. I don't think that everyone would share the same enthusiasm over a dish. But back to woodworking; I see examples of work by woodworkers on this forum who are as good or better than D. Marks, but could that person get his own TV show? I don't think so.
Norm has a personality ? :)
Paul
But you miss the point, that the ones with cooking shows, did their time as the prep cook, line cook, pantry chef, etc., to get to the point they are at. Now, someone is doing that for them.
I seriously doubt that the old master cabinet maker, did his own rough sawing and planing to get the wood to the point it was ready to cut to size and joint. Or, sharpened his own tools. He certainly knew how, it was part of what he did as an apprentice, on his way to being a master.
And, despite what Norm cranks out in the "Workshop", he is capable of truly fine work. But, as another poster pointed out, very few people would tune in to see him do a piece of furniture in a season. And regarding his on screen presence: Have you seen any of the early shows?
Hiya Jigs ,
So you seriously doubt that the old master cabinet makers sharpened his own tools ,,,
I wonder where you got that notion , what do you think they did ? Called the Village sharpening services to pick up the dull ones and by Camel or Donkey or Horseback it would be done .
Really now , your ideology is interesting but without factual collateral .
When an apprentice on his way to becoming a Master ,he would sharpen his own tools but when he reached Masterhood he no longer did his own sharpening , totally absurd thought pattern Mr . Jigs .
dusty (the sharpener )
I think that master's time was more valuable than that of an apprentice, and that the majority of such "grunt" work the apprentices did. They also swept the shop, and did the other work that didn't require much skill. I could probably research it and give an "authoritative" answer, but economics is economics, and it drove business then as now.
Even today, if you look at what an apprentice machinist does; for months all they do is sharpen tooling, clean out "T-slots", sweep the floor, clean the particle trap for the cutting fluid, and occasionally oil something, and wipe it down. Nothing resembling skilled work.
The cubs in any trade do the grunt work, then slowly get taught a little more. But, always the basic start is sweeping, sharpening, and tool maintenance.
Edited 6/21/2007 7:52 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
Maybe now I understand why you made the statements ,
You were referring to "Master cabinet Makers " comparing a machinist apprentice to a cabinet makers apprentice is sort of a switch a roo don't you think ?
According to you , " the Masters time was too valuable to do grunt work or any other work that didn't require much skill ".
From that it could be interpreted that in your opinion sharpening wood working tools requires little or a limited amount of skill .
Sorry but ,, honestly who among us has the new guy ( apprentice ) sharpen our most prized edges of our woodworking tools ? Perhaps in the rest of the new world it is done this way but this is news to me .
I agree that as an apprentice some ( I did ) do learn to sharpen tools . I was told the very first things I would need to learn were how to sharpen a chisel ( my chisels ) and how to draw . At first I did not see the wisdom , after about a year or so my chisels were awful sharp and my level of personal craftsmanship had risen as well as my ability to draw a picture of a potential project .
I was taught to set and sharpen hand saw blades as well as sharpen circular saw blades and most other cutting edges , also to grind and create shaper cutters .
A person capable of maintaining and sharpening a craftsmans tools is a true asset and added value to any shop , I guess since these skills take so long to become proficient at your statements struck a chord within me , and imo are inaccurate .
Maybe you are gifted at sharpening and drawing and other meaningful tasks , consider yourself lucky if that's the case .
dusty
Edited 6/21/2007 8:35 pm ET by oldusty
All you say is true concerning the value of the people that do the dirty work dusty. I find myself in a position where I seldom make furniture anymore, although I consider myself a furniture maker and designer.
Someone has to organise a work force or, in my case, organise all the teaching and programme management of a furniture making course. I simply don't have time to make furniture because I have to organise the working lives of twenty or more other people.
So, I suppose in a sense, I've become a 'Master'. I know how large, intricate and busy workshops work. I know how a vast range of furniture types and styles have to be made. I can make all of those types and styles myself to a greater or lesser degree-- but I don't have time.
My essential roles are varied, e.g., to make sure the workshop and the course runs efficiently: to manage a range of disparate characters: to direct workers (students) to do jobs correctly, etc.. I must say though that I make 'suggestions' to students rather than demand they do a job a certain way; it is, after all, a learning environment, not a work place as such for learners, if you get my drift.
I do, when it's necessary, get the tools out and show people how it's done. I do, also when it's required, set up the machines and demonstrate techniques. I seldom see a making job through from beginning to end, but I do oversee dozens of jobs in a year.
I miss the daily tasks of creating a single piece of furniture for a single client, but my role is different now to the ones I've been through over the last thirty five years from trainee furniture maker, to furniture student, to skilled furniture maker, to workshop manager, furniture business owner, etc.. all the way up to what I suppose is a form of management role, ie, running a furniture making course. Someone has to do that essential job.
I know several other very fine furniture makers that also seldom make anything. They are too busy running the business, just as I am in many ways to do any serious making. But we've all got one thing in common---- we've probably forgotten more about furniture making than most people will ever learn in a lifetime, which is not said in a boastful way at all. It's just a fact. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 6/22/2007 3:51 am by SgianDubh
Hi Richard ,
I don't really believe you have forgotten too much of what's important as your everyday routine must tax the old brain far beyond just making furniture .
Dealing with customers in your case students can be more demanding than the actual act of wood work imo .
You have made me feel so sorry for you and your loss of time to build furniture that I would like to extend an offer to you , sneak out West and bring a satchel of your favorite hand tools and I'll save a custom piece for you to knock out on your visit . In between making dust I'll drag you down River for a beautiful scenic white water experience then fill your gullet with some Western ale or three and all the while no fee will be incurred to you , consider it a retreat of sorts if you will .
I get a day off on the river and you get to make dust , what a deal !
come on down or over er out
very dusty
That sounds very enticing. I could almost take it up just like that. The retreat idea rather matches something I've got planned for a year hence. I'm going through a particularly busy period; writing a book on trees, timber and wood, a very big project, and going through a teacher training programme.
Both should be finished a year from now which will leave me with time on my hands, in theory. That's when I plan to start building furniture in earnest again and get a new range of stuff out into the public eye. I've a lot of designs in my mind I want to make.
We all need goals. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Now Richard,
Take it from an old newbie, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, you're so darned right. I work far too much, and I'm very dull. I never even say a controversial word in Knots anymore. You know it's true,..... don't you. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Ok,So can I take it from some of you that the reason a lot of the fellers that's woodworking on TV is because they have a good personality and can create projects pretty well? I can agree to some degree.
So,What I'd like to know is; Who on earth over at PBS thought that an old guy with a bump on his head and his kid(neither one I must say has absolutely no personality what so ever ) was a good idea to be the hosts of a show to create projects using only routers? They can't even finish a candle stand in a half hour on their show. Alls you have to do is turn the channel just once to the show,it's pretty evident by the routers that their using who the manufacturer is of the tools the old bump headed guy and his kid are advertising, and it's also evident who's the manufacturer putting up the bucks for the show.
Also what about all the want to be woodworkers on the D.I.Y. shows?, My goodness,by the time the shows over I think without exaggerating (ok just a little) I've pulled out almost every hair on my head do to idiotic mistakes that even a journeymen woodworker should know and understand in his/hers first few hours in a shop.
Also,why we're at it, how about that Ty fellow that used to be on D.I.Y. doing woodworking projects but now he's on ABC on Sunday nights hosting his own show helping poor families build some unreal homes in just 7 days? Personally he to me acts like the energizer bunny on some kind of high speeeeeeeeed drug or something. I'd,someday like to go in person and check out the quality of their 7 day build.
So from the sounds of it,and from watching certain so called woodworking professionals on TV,Almost anyone can be a Woodworking TV star making $2500.00 an hour? IF THEIR LUCKY.
Where do I sign up?????I've been at it for over 25 years, Am I still considered a journeyman?
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
I think the question is how did they get their own shows?
Norm got his show because he was on This Old House as the master carpenter and the people of WGBH wanted another show to produce so they offered him The New Yankee Workshop.
Roy Underhill promoted the idea of The Woodwright's Shop to UNC Television about 30 years ago only to be turned down. It wasn't until a year later where they called him back and offered him to do a short part series about the old ways of woodworking and he ended up shooting several episodes in an old blacksmith shop (which happens to be the very shop he uses today to shoot his show).
David Marks was approached by the DIY Network to shoot a woodworking show when he was with a woodworkers association in California. It apparently was only suppose to be a temporary thing where they shoot a bunch of episodes and stretch them over a period of years because there aren't anymore new shows. Wood Works is pretty much over except for the reruns.
I'm not sure how Scott Phillips ended up with his show American Woodworker but I've heard he was approached by a PBS station about working on his wooden boats. Later they offered him a show which strangly enough his wife has taken over and is now called American Homeshop with Suzy...??? Someone out here probably knows the story.
As far a Bob and Rick Rosenthal on Router Workshop goes, your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea how they started but they have their own forum on their website. Maybe some info about them is there.
I guess the thing is, if you want your own show you have to go out and shoot some episodes yourself or hang around in the right places and wait for someone to offer you a show (which will never happen). In this day and age, making your own show is easier than ever with You Tube, Glue Tube and TheWoodworkingChannel.com. Just got to go out there and do it yourself like Marc Spagnuolo does. I have a lot of respect and admiration for him... I wish I could do what he does...maybe someday I will. Plus you never know, five/ten years from now you may see Marc on HGTV or DIY or even PBS if he ever gets backing from a big sponsor and he'll be rich and famous like sexy heart throb Ty.
Edited 6/21/2007 10:48 pm ET by mvflaim
I haven't seen David Marks, so my remarks are based only on the Norm show.
I feel the work I've seen Norm do is not "Fine Woodworking" . It is good finish carpentry. I've been a carpenter, finish carpenter, and a cabinet maker/furniture maker. I have an idea what is expected of each job, and have respect for those who do any of these jobs well.
I would like to think that if I had a staff of woodworkers behind the camera, the tools he has, and the chance to edit out all my mistakes, I might look skilled to others too.
My real problem with Norm is that I feel that his show targets the woodworker who's skills are below his own. The weekend woodworker, not the pro with 5000 sq ft shop and a staff of 8 woodworkers. The weekend woodworker in most cases can't afford the tools he has, and often can't even afford the materilas he uses. Not to mention space or time. These woodworkers learn little from Norm's use of a $7K panel sander or the other pricey tools. When was the last time you saw a $7K tool under the tree Christmas morning? Most of these woodworkers want a chance to learn, not just be entertained..... A high five with a man with no arms, is nothing more than a slap in the forehead.
Aaaaaaahh.. Thanks. I feel better now.
Morning Everyone,
All this talk about TV WWing shows got me thinking.
Who has the resources to put together a REAL show, even a FINE one. I know a lot of folks already know where I'm headed with this, and you're right.
FWW, in my mind is in the best position to put together the FINEst woodworking TV program ever. Just within Knots look at all the resources! I also think that everyone would agree that all the editors/contributing editors have our respect and/or admiration.
The prospects have me salivating!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I personally think people relate to David Marks and his show a bit better than any of the others(including Mr NewYankee Workshop himself,Norm Abrams) Because like some of you have said;Mr Marks is truly an awesome creator of fine furniture in his own right, not only can the man do a nice job using older equipment(Like a lot of us have) but he doesn't have to try and recreate what others have already done.
In other words he has what some of us call an (OK now say it with me) "IMAGINATION" and the ability to create what he imagines. "David doesn't recreate" even though I'm sure he could if he wanted to. I think he probably likes to do his own thing instead of re-doing what's already been done(or recreating the wheel,so to speak)
Quite personally I've seen Mr Norm (on his show)go to an antique store and turn his back on a certain piece of furniture because according to him, his fans or as he called us "followers of the show"would not be advanced enough to build such a piece. To me, the mans turned his back quite a few times, on pieces that were created with hand tools and "ONLY"hand tools. But he with his shop full of every advanced "electric" tool and almost all the jigs known to man, thought the project would be to difficult when the piece in question was created with a "hand" saw, "hand "chisels also with a host of other "hand" tools. And here's the biggie,"a hammer and nails) But to him,for us,it would be to difficult.
Friends, Now I don't know what all of you think of all of this? And please don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bash Norm because,Yes,it's very true Norm is a very good carpenter and woodworker and do to TV has done a lot for the field of woodworking.,(probably more than anyone else) But, to me, A true woodworker has to be more than just a person that's able to copy what others have already done,( Yes,I know Norm's created some of his own stuff)
For my money,I personally like to watch guys like David Marks, I guess not only because the man can create, but he can do it without having to have a shop full of up to date bright shiny tools.(Just like Norms first episodes before, Delta and PC took over his shop)
Yes," I have to admit,it would be nice to have a truck back up to my door ,every few days to unload another new up to date tool but lets face it, In the real world ,the majority of us use what we have and can afford. And that's why,for me personally,I like David mark's and shows like his because his equipment looks like what the majority of us would have and use.
As far as the so called woodworkers /carpenters on the DIY channels goes," Well,"You all didn't give much of a response so I guess in a way I got my answer, THEY TRULY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY aren't very good!(Ahhhhh I got ya!,I bet you thought I was going to say something more harsh about them!)
I have to say,My most absolutely favorite show, that was on for just a couple times on DIY around Christmas time was(ummmmmm oh darn I can't remember the guys name, But I do know he looked a lot like Santa Claus,You know,white beard and all)No I'm not joking, The guy was very good and knew what he was doing. If one of you saw the show and knows who the guy is and if he's had any other shows other than at Christmas time,Please let me know. Thanks,
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
As an amateur woodworker, whose first project was building a house 30 years ago but who was always intimidated by furniture and cabinetry, watching Norm has inspired me to attempt stuff I never thought I could do, like build a set of kitchen cabinets and some office furniture. I'm sure to the real craftsmen here, he is no big deal, but he needs to perform for a larger audience than just experts. I almost always learn something when I watch his show. He's probably responsible for making a lot of people into woodworkers, some of whom may become fine woodworkers.
His tool collection is admittedly beyond the reach of most of us.
lawman ,
Don't be intimidated or made to feel less viable by any collection of tools and such .
One analogy : take all but 3 or 4 of your set of golf clubs out of your bag before your next round , you may find your score to be the same at the end .
All the machines and tools in the world can make tasks much easier but in the end " it's what you know that counts " not what you have .
regards dusty
Please,Don't get me wrong,I'm trying not to be a Norm basher and I apologies if it comes off like that.
It's just with The NewYankee Workshop for instance,A person see's someone like( Norm)perform a certain task with a certain named tool( Delta and Porter cable for instance)so in his or her mind since (Norm) was able to perform the task at hand with the certain brand new bright shiny tool they believe if only they had that exact same tool that (Norm)was using,they think they can do the exact same task as (Norm) did. So they run out and purchase the exact same tool that(Norm) was using, All brand new and bright and shiny,But for some reason the freaking thing won't perform or do what (Norm) was making it do. (SOMETHINGS JUST GOT TO BE WRONG WITH THE TOOL, in their minds) But Since Delta among others sponcer of The NewYankee Workshops bottom line is$$$$$$$ it's evident Mr Abrams has been making them money for quite some time since he's been on for a day or two. As far as the tool company that sold the tool goes,They couldn't care less who buys their tools just as long as they have a good sales quota, And that's only business.
As for the person that spent their hard earned money goes? I'd hope that they come to relies Knowledge and Natural ability plays a huge role in being a woodworker also a bit of common sense goes a long,long way.
I think that's why Norms been on for so long,it's because he's making lots of people money. As for David Marks,He hasn't made the choice to go the way of big business,He has made the choice to make do with what he has.
Is anyone guilty of anything? Not really, Norm,David, even the guys on the router show has all made their personal choices. Is anyone of them better than the other????Well you be the judge.
My personal choice is to watch guys like David Marks. I personally prefer not to support big tool manufacturers. I buy a lot of tools at Auction as well as Estate sales. I'm guilty of being a tool junky,(According to my wife)While it's true they are still the same brands it's just mines well broke in and has already been used by someone on other projects.
I prefer to think that "My"tools have experience and are well broke in, mine are seasoned.........
OK SO I'M A CHEAP A** AND CAN'T STAND SPENDING ANYMORE MONEY THAN I HAVE TO................That's my story and i'm sticking to it...........
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
You are not supporting the big tool manufacturers when you simply watch a television program on PBS. You would either have to actually buy a tool from one of the manufacturers you say you don't want to support, or perhaps send a donation of money to WGBH Boston.So, go ahead and watch Norm guilt-free. You know you want to.Norm's a pretty talented guy. He could build a complicated set of stairs from 9 to 5 and then turn the legs for an 18th C. reproduction to unwind after dinner.If it's made from wood, I wouldn't put it past Norm to be able to build it. You guys don't honestly think that he couldn't chop a mortise, saw a tenon, or cut a set of dovetails by hand, do you? Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/22/2007 2:12 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
In response to your original questions: Yes, in general, I believe that most viewers will see the tv personality as being "better" than the viewer. This is, I think, a natural response. People on TV are usually perceived as being above the masses in terms of intelligence and looks. Their personalities are envied by many. TV and movie personalities satisify the fantasies of people... they offer a deviation from their reality. Do I think the TV hosts/craftsmen are better then me? Not a chance. Norm et al are very talented people but so am I. If I could edit out my mistakes and misspoken lines... why, you all would think I'm a god.
I guess everyone has their little pet peeves with these TV shows. I enjoy most of them but occasionally when I watch some on HGTV it drives me crazy that the "experts" on TV won't follow basic safey stuff like wearing safety glasses. At least Norm and others like him practice safety in the shop. My $.02 worth anyway.
I could be as "good" as those guys if I had $100K of equipment and an unlimited wood budget.
Seriously though, one thing often overlooked in the "skill" of woodworking is an artistic eye for design and wood color. Pretty much anyone can accomplish any woodworking mechanical task if given the time and tools. However having that artistic eye seems to be something you're born with or not. Quite frankly in the time I've been frequenting these forums I've seen some things that were well crafted, but looked not-so-very-good. In particular, the over use of highly figured lumber in a piece actually detracts from its appearance.
And yeah - we never get to see the scrap wood piles these guys create while building something.
Other than for the large sander, what is it you machine tool woodworkers don't have that Norm has?You don't have a tablesaw, jointer, planer, bandsaw, a router or two? Maybe a lathe, as well? Nailers, biscuit joiners.... none of this is unusual in a hobbyist's shop. I haven't seen much on TNYW that the average machine-stoked hobbyist doesn't have.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
I agree that the majority of serious woodworkers do have a lot of the same tools that Norm or any other personality for that matter,(Even the woman that comes on at 10:30pm on the DIY channel on Saturday evenings) has "BUT" the big difference is, Mine are or for that matter any regular joe's tools aren't just dropped off to us just by using the phone or for that matter telling our producer and "POOF" like magic they appear.
If we want/need a tool we have to save up our pennies to go get it, How nice it would be to be able to go pickup the phone,dial a number and wa-la,the tools that's desired are there........WITHOUT HAVING TO CRINGE OVER THE SIZE OF CHECK WE'ER WRITING.Now that my friends; are what dreams are made of.
As far as; am I or anyone else jealous of what many of the woodworking shows have? the answers ,Yea, I for one am definitely jealous of David Marks BiiiiiiiG lathe or his monster "12 jointer and lets not forget that big ol' band saw that he uses, I keep my eyes peeled for auction sales for these items but lets face it,The True Woodworkers,I mean the true down to earth woodworkers- with sawdust in their veins and do woodworking every single day of their lives,The woodworkers that eat,drink and sleep woodworking and have the types of tools that I described above don't just sell those kind of tools. (These kind of tools are like their children)To me the woodworkers with the tools that I described above are the Leonardo DaVinci of woodworkers. Their the woodworkers that- Well, when you see a project that they build;It's a pure thing of beauty and perfection.
I'm not trying to suck up but the projects that I just mentioned are created by a lot of you here on FineWoodworking. Many of you here are a cut above and deserve the praise you get. BUUUUUUUT THE true woodworking geniuses needs no praise,Because he knows that what he does is as close to perfection as he/she can get it, so when they do grace us with a look at what they created,it's not because their looking for praise,Oh No, Their showing us how things should be done. To Them I say T H A N K Y O U!
Oh yea, As far as all the woodworking personalities out there goes:Well alls I can say is; When their careers are over, the lights are off, And when the directors are gone and the editing of their work is all over with, This is when the real world begins, Alls I can say is:They have a lot of catching up to do to catch up to the many Artists that's already here.
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
Jim, Norm can build.
His isn't better equipped than the average serious hobbyist who has chosen to go the power tool route.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
I agree with you. Except perhaps for that huge bandsaw with what looks like a 5 inch wide blade he uses for resawing ;-)If I had that I would probably end up sawing myself in half.Cheers,Peter
<<How nice it would be to be able to go pickup the phone,dial a number and wa-la,the tools that's desired are there........WITHOUT HAVING TO CRINGE OVER THE SIZE OF CHECK WE'ER WRITING.>>I'm sure that if you could help a manufacturer sell a ton more of their tools, that manufacturer would be happy to provide you with every tool you could ever want. I don't understand why you have a problem with Norm's arrangement with his sponsors. They give him tools so that he can do his show and make a buck, and he showcases their products, which helps them sell more tools -- and they make a buck. It's a beautiful thing. On top of that, those with an interest get to watch the program. So, it seems to me that everyone gets something in the deal.Mike
While I understand that Norm can build furniture(I wasn't born yesterday, Ok,Evidently with some of the condescending responses that I got, I must have been born the day before yesterday)If Norm or any of the other woodworkers on TV couldn't get our attentions using certain manufacturers tools so they can make money for the manufacturers,people like Norm wouldn't be on the air for even a millisecond because lets face it, It's all in the bottom line and that lines always money. If that wasn't the case,How come Norm's already under contract talks for 2008, As for David marks,No body's really sure about him,could it be because he won't sport only one manufacturers tools? I sure hope that's not the reason,I sure hope to see him back on the tube creating new projects really soon.
No, I personally don't have a problem with TV personalities persay or any of their shops, We're getting way away from the original meaning of what I asked at the very first post. Lets now get realistic for a second though, What they, with their big dollar shops and brand name tools build today, The same projects were built over a hundred years ago using only hand tools. Yes, it's true, The same projects can be built just as good or maybe even better with todays more modern tools and glue's But lets also not forget our forefathers and the way they did things because after all,Isn't that what Norms shows based on? The reproduction of what was built years ago.
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
Jim,
Some people may think the TV woodworkers are better than them and some of us may not feel that way , what's the difference ? Some TV wood workers may be better than some folks and some may not be .
What is mostly true is the fact that they get paid to show the viewers how they can do a particular task or build something . These personalities have the opportunity to get paid to do this , we get paid to do similar but not while on camera .
We are much more dependent on our audience (clients) being satisfied with the end result , on TV if we don't like it we don't have to watch , and they still get paid .
To the general public It may not really matter what brands of tools and such are being used as much as it seems to matter to you. The viewers tune in to learn and watch .
The DIY movement is huge , the brands being used are less important than the process shown imo . There are Cooking , Sewing , Remodeling , Oil painting amongst a few of the various DIY shows that promote and try to inform and teach and spark interest in these topics .
The skills shown and taught can be emulated by viewers , in turn folks may try something new or a different way to go about things , perhaps with a tool they have never seen before .
Why is Norm already under contract for the future , " the bottom line " I suppose plays a major role .The sponsors are confident and pleased with the shows . Is there something not right with that theory ?
I disagree that the purpose of Norm's show is to do things the way our forefathers did , rather to show the unskilled laymen wanna be that they too can accomplish many projects themselves .
On the other hand Roy Underhill indeed shows how things were done in days gone by with many of the same old tools , a completely different way then that of the modern TV DIY gurus .
What does frustrate me is when Norm or any other is shown at the start of assembly , and then they cut to " o.k. now that part is done and we can move on to mounting the hardware . Just once they should show a clamp monster of an assembly and a hand too few while a clamp drops off and the sub assembly with glue oozing out of every orifice and joint , with the mic on , can you feel the cuss words ?
regards dusty
Dusty,
Your frustration is one felt by many people that watch DIY shows, Thats why "They sell video's" of the same programming only in more depth becouse they want you to be curiouse enough so you'll spend your hard earned money to see if they actually do the things that you want to see them do.
I guess another good "post" question would be: What on earth did we do before the DIY networks came on? Either A: We called some one that was a professional to do certain stuff for us becouse that person was willing to take the hard knocks "AND TRAINING/SCHOOLING" that it took to be a professional. Or B: We tried to do the stuff ourselves , taking the hard knocks that whent along with whatever it was we were doing. We either fixed whatever we were trying to fix or we didn't Or C: We forgot about it all together and whent and played nine holes of golf.
I'm not saying DIY's a bad thing,But my goodness whatever happened to not learning everything from a freaken TV or dare I say it: an internet screen?????(I FEEL SO OLD)
Listen,Please; I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, I agree TV woodworkers have their place and i'ts a good one. And "YES" I'm very aware that Norm's a good carpenter/woodworker But the way some people come to his defence when they "think" a person might be saying somthing negative against him or his shop is unreal. Norm: If your reading this buddy,? Have you ever thought about the "CHURCH OF NORM"???? You for sure definatly have enough worshipers.......... I'd only be a member but only if we all got a New Yankee Workshop of our own...... But Norm,buddy, If you ask me to drink some funny colered kool aid; YOUR ON YOUR OWN................
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
<<Evidently with some of the condescending responses that I got...>>I hope that you didn't take my response as condescending -- it certainly wasn't meant to be, and I apologize if it came off that way.For me, TV woodworking shows are mostly entertainment and I don't really think too much about how many tools or what a great shop Norm or any of the other guys have. I think Norm is really good at hosting his type of show, and I think the main value of The New Yankee Workshop is in creating interest rather than teaching. It's difficult to cram a whole lot into a half hour show, but he does a pretty good job. As for your original post, I feel my skills are equal to Norm's, maybe not so much with others -- I've seen old Norm make some pretty sloppy joints -- but then, he does have a show to get on the air. And on another note, I met him many years ago, just before he started doing The New Yankee Workshop, and he's the most down-to-earth, nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. He was late to the event because he was putting a new muffler on his truck -- pretty humble for a PBS star.
I like to watch Norm but I couldn't tell you what products he "sells" personally I like David Marks and Roy Underhill's shows alot better...David's show is one of the major reasons I got into woodworking...all three are good at their craft and probably are better than the average woodworker (hobbyist)...which begs the question: what is the "average" woodworker....just reading this forum, it's very obvious that there is a wide range of skills and interests...even as a novice I can handcut better dovetails and MT joints than some of the seasoned veterans simply because that's the direction I chose and they would rather do it on a bandsaw or use a router jig...I'm just disappointed that there are not more woodworking shows.
Neil(watching my Rob Cosman, David Charlesworth, etc DVDs for the twentieth time)
You just put a "period" on the whole post;"Good job".
No matter who's better than whom,or who has more experience than whom, "I HOPE" We can all agree on one thing;(GOOD ,BAD,RIGHT OR WRONG)
We all fall under the same title "W O O D W O R K E R"
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
Thanks Jim,
I wasn't trying to end the post although it seems we've heard nearly all sides of the issue plus the usual asides. The other point is that we can all learn from anyone who's been at it for more than a few years...every question I've posted has had a wide array of answers on how to do a particular task...incidently, I sure like the title woodworker a shole lot mor than"wood butcher" (although looking at some of my early projects......)
Neil
neil,
My wife calls me the Wood Torturer!
One day she came into the woodshop and saw a glue-up of a birdhouse I was making for her that had clamps everywhere due to its shape and remarked, "What are you doing with that, torturing the wood?"
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Uncle Cornelius insists that we are all woodspoilers. "How can what you make be better than them majestic trees?" he asks. "Also, you have made some errors in that carcase and the drawer sticks.......".
A judgemental uncle keeps one on one's toes, of course, although that's the last whiskey cupboard I'll make for the old ingrate.
Lataxe, also a wood-fetishist (but only in a nice way, no wooden briefs for me)!
PS I bet Norm hasn't got any of them Martin machines that Jonesy has access to. Now those are Real Boys Toys - the Tonkas of the woodworking world. It must make the house clearance a binde when you pop your clogs, though. The widderwoman will need a crane, if she is to rid herself of such shed clutter.
But I digress.
Jim,How do I judge Norm?I judge Norm the same way as I judge any person. I have a metric for judging every person's life, and for being able to compare every two persons. With my rule, I can tell you which of two people is "better". Unfortunately, for my metric to work, the person must be dead.My metric is: "The person who dies with the most toys is the winner."My belief is that with this metric, Norm is the BEST. He will have collected (been given by sponsors) more tools than any other woodworker.Thus by my metric, Norm will be the all-time, no-one comes close, WINNER over all woodworkers who ever has lived or will live.Of course, if you use a different metric, he might not be the winner. But as I learn more about the folks on Knots, they are very proud of the number and cost of their toys. They may talk about skills and other things, but TOYS are VERY IMPORTANT to the Knots crowd.So, given my metric, we have concluded that NORM IS THE BEST WOODWORKER WHO EVER LIVED OR WILL EVER LIVE, INCLUDING LATAXE, SGIAN DUBH, and JOINERSWORK.NOTHING ELSE NEED BE WRITTEN ON THIS TOPIC. THIS IS THE FINAL WORD.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:Clearly your suggested metric is ideal and who can argue with its intrinsic value as a measure of a man's worth?A couple of suggestions:As you correctly point out, the winner can only be determined once their tool buying ability has ended, i.e., upon death. But the metric makes it very easy to track progress and make definitive judgments at any point in time based on the accumulated toys to date. So we can say that today Norm is the world's best woodworker.I do think the metric, to be totally fair and accurate, must take into account original cost. So for example, a purchaser of a Karl Holtey smoothing plan at a mere $7,399.95 would be well ahead of a purchaser of a Lie-Nielsen at $265.00. In fact the L-N buyer would have to acquire some 27 planes to considered an equal in the woodworking pantheon.The advantage of this metric is that there is no need to spend time assessing the accumulated body of work. A simple shop inventory is all that is required!Regards,Hastings
"Am" I missing something here? Truly, I can not believe the turn that this post has taken.
Evidently, The Fine Woodworking crowd (or at least a couple of you) must be having an off day "or for that matter an off life",or maybe your meds need to be adjusted if you actually think that you can judge a woodworkers worth by the tools that he has and the brand of them and the number of them.
I'm sorry,To me, quite personally there's something pretty "WRONG" with that way of thinking, BUT,HEY,if this is what rocks you all's world then so be it.
Honestly,I like Norm as well as the work that he does; but to say he's the very best that there is,is reaaaallllllyyyyyyy stretching it a bit. Yes;he is good at what he does, also he's trying to improve and incorporate hand tools in his projects more and more to prove that he's a well rounded woodworker and not just a power tool junky.
In his older shows he used power tools the majority of the time but more and more he's slowly but surely fazing in some carving as well as doing some other woodworking by hand.(But he's still nothing like David Marks)
I hope he as well as other's in the TV woodworking field are tying to show more and more that there's more to woodworking than hear the wwwwwrrrrrrrrrr of a power tool,
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
Jim:The only thing you missed was the use of irony. Merriam-Webster defines it thus:Main Entry: iro·ny
Pronunciation: 'I-r&-nE also 'I(-&)r-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirOnia, from eirOn dissembler
1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony
2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play -- called also dramatic irony, tragic irony.Mel's post and my response came under use #2 above.As you know, there is a lot of emphasis on tools in Knots that seems to drown out the importance of skills. I should really let Mel speak for himself, but he does like to poke fun at the tool folk. I find his dry, ironic wit highly amusing and just added a little gasoline!So, the meds are OK and I think you will see that we were both in agreement that acquiring a particular skill is probably more useful than the next "gotta-have-it" tool.Hope this clears things up.Regards,Hastings
Jim,
Wot meds do you recommend? One hears that there are many exotic if expensive kinds available in the USA. I don't think I want yours, though, as they seem to have turned off your humour-detector. Perhaps Hasting's excellent lesson will help?
Of course, the world is governed by serious men and look how well they're doing, with their frowning and tutting at those not of their Party. I blame the grey suits they wear; and the ties, which cut the blood supply off to their brains. Or perhaps it's their meds?
Lataxe, who listened to over much Goon show when young and now finds everything a joke, especially stuff on the IdiotBox (TV).
Neil,
Thank-you for posting that you are watching your Rob Cosman dvd's for the umteenth time. I thought I was the only one! I have a beutiful Leigh D4 Jig with the Whiteside dovetail bit set sitting five feet from my workbench collecting dust. It's just something about handcut dovetails that gets you hooked!
Jeff
Jeff,
I agree, those things are addicting, at least to some...another co worker commented to me than he spent four hours once trying to cut dovetails and went out and bought a jig, never looked back....my Craftsman dovetail jig sits on a lower shelf gathering dust, having never been used...I made a tool box in a class with Chris Gochnour out of butternut..although there are several mistakes that apparently only I can see, the dovetails came out really well...my wife has commented several times that it is too pretty to be a tool box (I disagree...if you have some really nice chisels, planes and saws, the next best thing to having them on open shelves to be seen is to house them in a nice looking box) sure do like looking at those tails..
keep cuttin'
Neil
Jim,
I think it's ahuge misconception that the people we see on TV are experts, or even that good in their field.
It's hard to say anything about their skill. Up here in Canada they recently had a show called 'Handyman Superstar Challenge'. The had 12 contestants compete for their own show. Each week they did a skill challenge and a presenting challenge. Although the all had talent, the two most skilled people were knocked off for poor presenting skills.
I've seen better furniture done locally than I've ever seen Norm do. But I think he really deserves credit for getting new people into the craft.
Essentially people on TV are teachers, and teachers are not necessarily the best in the fields. That said, the best in a given field may not be a very good teacher, and in this case may not make very good TV...
Buster
Buster,
Thanks for your input,No truer words were ever spoken,Nice job.
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
I have to thank you for this post, Jim -- I haven't had an experience like it in the 39 or so years since I last enjoyed Stanley Owsley's classic concoction. Thanks again.
Edited 6/27/2007 5:24 am ET by Mike_B
All,
Since Norm has kind of become a big part of the subject here, I don't watch his show a lot but has he been ill? He has lost quite a bit of weight since I've last seen his show. Doesn't seem as chipper as he was. He is , however, a skilled craftsman in his own right.
Paul
I haven't noticed his weight loss nor have I heard of any illness he was suffering from...maybe he's on the Adkins diet.. He didn't look like he'd be in best of shape on his show... maybe his doc told him to lose some weight, start eating healthy...
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