Dear All,
I was in Tools Plus (Waterbury CT) today and they had a Sawstop on display. There wasn’t any altar or kneelers set up, and I didn’t see any candles to light, but it could be a new display. There was no blade in it, so I couldn’t jam my fist into the spinning teeth to see if the blade stop works or not. All that aside, it sure looks like a well made saw. I have a six or seven year old PM66 with “Made in the USA” stickers all over it and I can tell you that the Sawstop has much better fit and finish. The fence seemed every bit as good as the one on my saw and the mechanisms seemed smooth enough. At $3800.00 it is a bit pricey, but it is on my shortlist to replace my saw.
Best,
John
Replies
John,
It was indeed a new display. A bunch of us followed the original down to Guyana for a Kool-Aid party. No candles or anything, just the Kool-Aid and half hot dogs.
Seriously though, as you're in construction, why not consider adding a real slider to your shop and keep the 66 set up opposite it for ripping only. If you work with a lot sheet stock in your business, it would make life a breeze-- if you have the room. Just a thought.
Mike
Dear Mike,
I'm with you. The other saw on the list is a slider. I am partial to Mini-max, but I am open to options. I'm not sure that I would keep the 66 as I would be looking to recoup some of my investment in the new saw. I think that if I really had to pull the trigger on a new saw, I would be more inclined to go with the slider due to :1) The Sawstop uses an electronic "gizmo" to overcome what is really a design issue.
2) Sawstop is a new company and may or not be in business in twenty years when the afore mentioned "gizmo" stops working.
3) The Sawstop is a much improved version of the basic tablesaw where as a slider does seem to open up some new opportunities, in particular, processing sheet goods.Overall, I like the Sawstop, it was cool to see one in person, with or without the Kool Aid, but I think that you are correct. A slider is the way to go.Best,John
John,
I finally got enough money saved to pull the trigger on a MiniMax slider. I put money down on it at the Las Vegas show and it should be here in another week or two. I got the S315WS Technomax with an 8.5' slide. I got the 1 Phase so I didn't have to mess with the 3 phase rotary converter. I too have the Powematic 66 and am still toying with the idea of selling it. If I can, I'll keep it and use it for dadoing. We'll see after I set up the new saw. I'll let you know how it goes with my slider. Maybe I'll send you some pictures, unless that would make you to envious. Now I'm trying to decide which 18 or 19 inch bandsaw to purchase. So far it's between the Grizzly G0514x, Steel City or Rikon. I'm leaning towards the Grizzly, because of their excellent customer service.
Danny
Dear Danny,
That sounds cool. Please send the pics. You didn't want to go for a two tool package with a Minimax bandsaw?Best,John
John,
I know they have one of the best bandsaws out there, but I just don't use it that much to justify it's extra cost. Nice thought though!
Danny
Dear Danny,
That's my take on them as well. If I used one that much, I might get one, then again , if I had one, I might use it more....... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....................John
I have one, live it. It's a great saw.
After an accident the wife insisted. Who am I to argue with that.
BTW the only reason I could afford it is I changed jobs and sold a bunch of leave to my old company.
I don't have anything to add to this discussion except for the attachment below.
Ben, thx for that ... I literally laughed out loud.
My kids (6 /8 / 11 /13 ) have just started showing interest in woodworking now that the shop is up and running so a SawStop is a no-brainer. I popped my thumb 15 years ago and the 10 stitches down the middle of the pad were easily worth $200 each to avoid (good god the injections to "numb" my thumb almost killed me). I can't imagine one of my kids going through that (much less me). New SawStop in January ...
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. How's the new saw?John
Yes the safety is nice, but it comes at a price that some people may not be able to afford. And if you do not have a saw at all you may not be able to save that much money. Of if you could that still may be more money that some people could spend on the saw (hard to save up that money and then us it if you have other demands, but a smaller amount you may be able to get away with)
Not saying the saw is not worth it, but the owner of SawStop know they have the only game in town and they charge accordingly. The say may be worth the cost but it is NOT a low end/inexpensive saw. And while it would be nice to have one it is hard for some to justify the cost. Yes safety is nice but considering how many people use table saws in any given year (and how many times they use them) it is not as dangerous as some make it sound (not saying it is safe, but be DO use it and the do so with out cutting off parts that are needed) So it is something that each person has to decide for themselves. Is the cost something they can afford or not.
Doug
"The say may be worth the cost but it is NOT a low end/inexpensive saw."
I think from a marketing point of view, it has to be that way. You have to first introduce a new (and fairly expensive) feature on a top-of-the-line model. Otherwise, people will just say, "Yeah, it's got feature X, but it doesn't do Y or Z," and the product gets written off, before it even has a chance to prove itself. Once you've established yourself, then you can put the same feature on a less expensive model (which is apparently what SawStop is planning to do--a contractor-style saw and also a band saw).
-Steve
I think from a marketing point of view, it has to be that way. You have to first introduce a new (and fairly expensive) feature on a top-of-the-line model. Otherwise, people will just say, "Yeah, it's got feature X, but it doesn't do Y or Z," and the product gets written off, before it even has a chance to prove itself.
That's generally what I have seen. I am feeling good about this and I hope it "ups the ante" so that others will re-engineer to a higher level. It reminds me of the Texas Instruments calculators when they came out and the guys like me with the slide-rule just took pot shots at the cost. They got better and the price improved too. I think it will follow that path in time. Yea, I got one as soon as the GI Bill approved them(cheap or not).
The difference is that Texas Instruments had Hewlett Packard and Casio to contend with. Patents didn't seem to have an effect. I wish I still had my old TI 59 with cartridges.
We've already seeing the largest impact of the safety momentum--that's the riving knives that will be on all new tablesaws--high and low priced--within a few years.
But in any event, if one were serious about reducing tablesaw injuries, an hour of hands on instruction with an expert on saw safety when you buy a new saw would do more than anything else to reduce injuries.
"But in any event, if one were serious about reducing tablesaw injuries, an hour of hands on instruction with an expert on saw safety when you buy a new saw would do more than anything else to reduce injuries."
................ you've hit the nail on the head. Anyone can walk off the street and buy a tablesaw, take it home and use it without any training whatsoever. A concerted education effort by industry would do a great deal to reduce injuries. I still recall an accident involving my jobsite saw. Someone in the shop with no woodworking experience used my saw without permission and attempted to cut a 2"x2" diagnally freehand without the guard, the fence, and without beveling the blade. The results weren't pretty but fortunately after some surgeries and rehab he still has all his digits and they work pretty well.
Anyone can walk off the street and buy a tablesaw, take it home and use it without any training whatsoever.
This is so true. I was out for some beers with a friend last week and he related a story about his days in the door shop.
A new employee showed up from out of province, he was supposed to be experienced. Gets his cursory shop tour, and is set to work.
A little while later an awful noise is heard, so my buddy goes to investigate. He finds the new guys feed some plywood into the saw... backwards and apparently with a small amount of success. I guess he had managed to work his way about a foot into the plywood (of course the board was a mess), before the board caught and flew the length of the shop.
Anyway the best part of the story my buddy says 'What the h*ll were you doing?' and the guys response: 'That's how we do it in Manitoba...'
There can be no doubt that the sawstop invention is a step forward. Yet I will never understand why the American market tricks saws out to be more dangerous than our saws of fifty years ago.
You use a full length fence, and make virtue of it being absolutely firm and parallel. I use a fence ending level with the saw blade, no binding of work.
You do not have riving knives. Mine rises with the blade and I make them to fit the blade kerf.
I make zero clearance inserts out of shatterproof plastic.
My guard is a rectangle of security grade plastic held over the saw blade. I have to use push sticks, I cannot touch the blade, but I can see what is happening.
The saw is part of a twentyfive or so year old Lurem three phase combo with three HP motors running from a phase converter.
All the above may seem nitpicking, on the other hand I think faster than I can react and so do all I can to stay arranged as born. I will not use a dado set, although I was stupid enough to buy one!
I did spend some time in a pro workshop, not being part of the operation, and their fences and guards were on the above lines.
A complete mufti.
Mufti,While my saw is configured completely the opposite of what you describe as correct and safe (except for the inclusion of zero clearance inserts), I can see your point -- for the most part. I really don't understand the fear of the dado blade you folks seem to have over there. I find it a very tame, safe and useful tool. Even a wobble dado can be used safely, though I can't imagine why one would want to.Mike
All in one piece, but not complete.
For my part, Mike, setting up a dado would be a nightmare. The saw does not have a trunnion, it has a bolt. I use an Elu B/Joiner cum scriber which has a four inch cutting blade and a router to clear the waste. Or a chisel and plane.
I have used a wobble blade years ago and it worked after a fashion. Such things may be useful if they can be left set up, but by the time I have reconfigured everything I have forgotten what I did it for. An age thing!
Doug said:
"Yes the safety is nice, but it comes at a price that some people may not be able to afford."Doug,Quite honestly, I'm tired of this illogical line of thinking as a response to the price of a SawStop. I don't own a Sawstop, but if and when I buy a new tablesaw, I will buy a Sawstop.The issue is not whether some people can afford it, it's whether or not they choose to put their limited resources (most of us have limited resources) towards purchasing this item. As we all are aware, a power saw has the capability to permanently fold, bend, mutilate and spindle the human body. This is something NONE of us can afford. If one of us puts a hand through the blade, we'll rack up thousands of dollars in medical expenses, miss weeks, if not months of work and we'll still have to still have to deal with the physical and psychological impact of the accident.I'm not advocating that everyone has to go out and buy a new saw. Many people aren't willing to spend $1000+ on a Unisaw, much less, $2000+ on a Sawstop. However, instead of rallying around the "it's too expensive" flag, simply acknowledge that a percentage, possibly a large percentage, of the population will not make the CHOICE to purchase the inherently safer, but more expensive, product.Jim
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
Just to give some perspective, I had my first kick-back in 40 years about 2 months ago. I still have all my fingers, but the retail cost of my injuries is 3x the cost of a Saw Stop. Do I hope it's another 40 years? Do I gamble? To me it's no contest. I was going for the PM2000 until my accident, now in my mind I have no option.
If the cheap TS I was using had a riving knife, my accident would have been prevented (I think). Every TS needs a riving knife as a minimum.
Jim
I don't quite understand your post. You say a riving knife would have prevented your accident, but then say that you were going for the PM2000, but now apparently have no option but the SawStop? At least that's how I read it. But the PM2000 does have a riving knife.
I think the riving knife would have prevented the accident. I'm not going to risk my hand again thinking the knife will prevent the next accident. If I can afford another level of safety (along with more caution, better techniques, etc) I'm going to do it. No one should see what I saw when I looked at my hand. It's a life altering sight.
Jim
I am sorry Jim but if anyone is being arrogant it is not me.
Anyone that says that all you have to do is decide to use your "limited resources" to get a $2000 tool and thinks that covers all people is out of touch with the reality that a LOT of people live in today, and most likely does not have very limited resources. As stated else where some can not afford half that much for a Delta, but you think they can just up and buy the Sawstop? I do not think so. A lot of people if told they had to pay two grand for a saw (in order to be safe) would just stay out of wood working. And here is the Key, Yes it is safer, but it would be safer still to just not use a table saw, so if you want to be as safe as you can be, don't use any saw. To be really safe take up knitting.
The argument that it may cost more for getting yourself fixed is biased. It assumes that you are GOING to have an accident, and if that is the case how did we all live before the saw stop? It is like airbags. I would not buy a car with out one today, but then again I did not buy the first car (that I owned) that had one until it was not anymore expensive then other cars. Not because it was not a good idea but because I could not afford one when you needed to buy the top of the line expensive cars to get it.
To assume that people can just decide to spend the money is not realistic. It is the same idea that says just because we want to do something (Be it personal, or the government) and just because it is a good idea, we can do it. I wish I lived in that world. At the same time we may as well say that anyone that does not go to a top of the line school, just needs to allocate the recourses to do so. Alas their are many people that can not afford this, just because it is a good idea. This is the same idea that makes a lot of people think that $3:50 for gas is not hurting anyone, It may not hurt some people but others are really hurt buy this. So to assume that you can just decide to spend the money seams to be a bit out of line.
Note I never said it was not worth the cost, I just said that each person has to decide these things for themselves. Personally if we convinced every person on the planet that has a piece of junk saw keep using it until they can afford the Sawstop I have a feeling we would hurt more people then we helped. It is better to have a Delta today, then to use a POS today and save up for the Sawstop way down the line, as we all know the worse the saw the more likely it is to hurt someone. Yes it is a good idea, and if you can afford it, more power to you, but not everyone can.
Doug
Frankly, safety IS that important.I would advise anyone whose budget did not permit buying a safe saw like a SawStop, or at least a saw with an integral riving knife to not buy a table saw. Buy a 16" BS instead. It will be safer, and aside from sheet goods, very capable for most applications. No kickbacks and very safe for ripping. You can resaw and cut tenons, not tendons. In time, other manufacturers may come around and prices will moderate. In the meantime, you can hang on to all 10 fingers and both hands.I use one in my shop (18" Steel City). With a jointer and a shooting board, I can dress any stock coming out of it. No worries.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Safety is important, but it doesn't have to have a $4,000 price tag.
The most important risk is kickback, and using a splitter does an excellent job of dealing with that. You just have to use it. Riving knives make that easier, of course, and all new table saws will have them soon. Saw Stop doesn't have an advantage in this category.
Running a hand into the blade is mostly a matter of using proper techniques. I always imagine where my hand or body would go if the wood instantly evaporated. I also use shoe type push sticks. Avoid dumb things like reaching around the blade. Provide support on the outfeed side so boards don't get out of control when the cut is finished, creating an opportunity for dumb, but reflexive graps.
If you must spend money on the safety, you can get a Brett Guard for as little as $200, though $430 buys the convenience of the overhead model.
All that SawStop is really offering is convenience in not having to keep thinking while you are in the shop. It's by no means necessary for keeping all body parts intact.
<"All that SawStop is really offering is convenience in not having to keep thinking while you are in the shop...">Not at all. The most important safety component is always the mind of the person using the tool, but additional safety features are not "conveniences". By your logic, the airbag in my car is a "convenience". After all, all I need to do is be a careful driver- pay attention to the road- and I wouldn't need an airbag, a safety belt, a padded dash or a crumple zone. But all of these have the effect of further reducing my risk of serious injury, even if the worst were to happen. In the 19th century, many factories had no belt guards- after all, the workers just needed to keep their hands away from the belts, right? Why should the factory owner invest in "conveniences" that took money out of his pocket because his workers were careless?The same could be said of SS. Most of the time, its safety features will be unused, but when the worst does happen, they could prevent serious injury. Your model of safety is based upon the notion that all human error is preventable. My experience tells me that it is not. In the end, faulting an injured WW for being less than perfect is not a reasonable alternative to better safety engineering.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
So let me see if I have the right, all of us that are using existing saws (non Saw stop saws) should just park them until/if we have the funds to replace them with a saw that is safer? If you think that someone that can not afford a Saw stop should not guy any ts then those of us with them should not be using them either. I mean if it is unsafe to use it is unsafe.
I can not agree with this. Yes it may be safer, but I still say that most users of a standard TS are not hurting themself.
As for being able to afford it or not, and as for a lawyer being better off them others I will not go to much into this other then to say that I bet the Lawyer makes more then a grunt on the line.
Doug
Surprise. You didn't get it right.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
If you are trying to say their is a Lawyer making less then 24 grand a year I would have to say that he/she is either doing charity type work (for a really good cause) or their is something really really wrong and maybe he/she needs to look for a new job. (and yes a lot of line workers are making less then $12 and hour now of days) A friends mother keeps saying she is poor and under paid but then says that another school wants to hire her for twice the money but she does not want to leave (she would not have to move) well, in that type of case she chooses to be under paid. So I stand with the post, I doubt very many lawyers are paid less then a guy working in a small shop is paid.
The point of that post was that, what one person considers low pay another would jump at, and I still doubt that many lawyers make less then very many guys working blue colour. Or say at Wallmart. So the point was that because a "low paid" lawyer can safe up for it does not mean a guy working at a small shop (or wall mart) can. So should we limit woodworking only to those that can afford the safest/best tools?
Doug
Glaucon you said:
"I would advise anyone whose budget did not permit buying a safe saw like a SawStop, or at least a saw with an integral riving knife to not buy a table saw. Buy a 16" BS instead. It will be safer, and aside from sheet goods, very capable for most applications. No kickbacks and very safe for ripping. You can resaw and cut tenons, not tendons. In time, other manufacturers may come around and prices will moderate. In the meantime, you can hang on to all 10 fingers and both hands."
Yet, you now say Doug didn't get it right when he characterized your advice as calling for parking existing tablesaws in favor of using only bandsaws. Seems like an apt characterization to me of the only logical conclusion to be drawn from your statement.
No, and you didn't get it right either. My original post said:"I would advise anyone whose budget did not permit buying a safe saw like a SawStop, or at least a saw with an integral riving knife to not buy a table saw."Note that I did not say that someone should "park" an existing TS. That's Doug's confabulation.I also did not specify that they only buy a SawStop, but that they consider at least buying a saw with an integral riving knife (to minimize kick back injuries). So I see Doug's characterization as inept, and your conclusion as illogical. Since you seem, in general to be fairly intelligent, I would conclude not that you did not read my original post correctly, but chose to alter its meaning to suit your argument.Doug on the other hand, has chosen to make this into a rant about the "nanny state", lawyers, liberals and soon no doubt, black helicopters from the UN. Can a second amendment argument about our rights to keep and bear table saws be far off?I also pointed out, that for many operations, a BS is cheaper, safer and more versatile than a TS, unless sheet goods are involved. I think that that is a defensible argument. I also don't believe that a jointer is more dangerous than a TS, and moreover, there is no need to use a jointer- a handplane is fine for dressing stock after band sawing. While this point can certainly be debated, a number of master WWrs have ranked TS as much less useful than other power tools, and have written articles in both FWW and PW downplaying the emphasis that tends to be placed on the TS.The central tenet of this argument is one of values, not of facts (or lawyers). Where on a list of features does one value safety? I place it near the top, others might not. Since the market has been largely ineffective in bringing safer designs for TS to Americans (as opposed to Europeans), one can make an argument that there is a role for government regulation to foster safety. The fact that one has to buy aftermarket guards and splitters demonstrates 1) that current safety features offered by major manufacturers are inadequate and 2) that there is a desire by WWrs to have these features, even if they have to purchase them separately.That seems to me to be both apt and logical.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
A lawyer walks into a Sawstop store. The clerk says, "we don't see many lawyers in here" The lawyer says, "at these prices, you won't see many more"
On one hand you say: Where on a list of features does one value safety? I place it near the top, others might not.
But then you leap to the opposite conclusion in the very next sentence: Since the market has been largely ineffective in bringing safer designs for TS to Americans (as opposed to Europeans), one can make an argument that there is a role for government regulation to foster safety. This essentially says we should ignore individual values in favor of government imposed values. It also ignores the fact that safer designs (from Europe) have long been available in the American market, and that the European safety features are not strictly market driven, but have been buttressed by regulations.
Then you state: The fact that one has to buy aftermarket guards and splitters demonstrates 1) that current safety features offered by major manufacturers are inadequate and 2) that there is a desire by WWrs to have these features, even if they have to purchase them separately. Again the conclusion doesn't follow. All that is your example says is that while many (likely most) believe that the standard guards and splitters are adequate, some desire to buy after market accessories. The market is not failing, it is providing options for people who have differing opinions about the worth of certain safety features without having to pay for them whether wanted or not. I own a Brett guard (actually two of them) and I don't use them. Why would I want to pay extra for something I won't use? I certainly wouldn't be forced to do that.
In your most recent post you say: Note: that I did not say that someone should "park" an existing TS. That's Doug's confabulation.
In your original post you actually said: I would advise anyone whose budget did not permit buying a safe saw like a SawStop, or at least a saw with an integral riving knife to not buy a table saw. Buy a 16" BS instead. It will be safer, and aside from sheet goods, very capable for most applications. No kickbacks and very safe for ripping. You can resaw and cut tenons, not tendons. In time, other manufacturers may come around and prices will moderate. In the meantime, you can hang on to all 10 fingers and both hands.
Since virtually everyone reading these posts already owns a table saw, and only a few of them have integral riving knives or the Saw Stop feature, the only logical interpretation of your advice is Doug's and mine. Surely, if you mean what you said about not buying, you must also mean to stop using existing saws which don't have your idea of minimum safety features in favor of using the bandsaw. No logical difference as far as safety between "not buying" and "not using" existing table saws.
It's hard to know which is safer, the tablesaw or the jointer since table saws are used so much more often than jointers. Of course for me, the only power tool I have ever been "bitten" by was a jointer. I've never broken skin using my table saw. My only close calls have been from kickback not blade contact. That's why I now have, and use, the Biesemeyer splitter.
Glaucon, the fact that you appear to disagree with my opinion on other maters (that you seam to want to bring into this) is your issue not mine. I did not go into a rant about the government. But you seam to be suggesting that the government should mandate safety features. So........
As others have said I can only conclude from what you are saying that TS are not safe, there for you should not be using them (unless they are the safe SawStop version, that many can not afford) Tell me in your schooling did they teach you that if B is a subset of A and C is a sub set of B then even with out being told it you know that C is a sub set of A? Thus if it is to dangerous for a person to buy a new (non SawStop) TS because they do not have safety, then you can conclude that any non safe (SawStop, Europe style, or at least a riving Knife equipped saw) is not safe. There for all of us that have these should not be using them (I mean if they are not safe they are not safe) The logic holds up.
By they way (not knowing the cost) can you get the BS you talked about for less then the SawStop? I don't use BS all the much.
Also on that line, is the TS the most dangerous tool because so many people that have no idea how to use tools own them? I mean if that many people owned and used Bandsaw would they be any safer? Or jointers for that matter?
Maybe we should all give up this woodworking as it is to dangerous and take up golf.
And last but not least I did not start in on the lawyer, I only responded to the post that tried to say that is a poor under paid lawyer can find the money for a saw stop then everyone should be able to. This is a point that I find utterly absurd. To equate a lawyers ability to afford a saw stop with others (that may be working at Wall Mart for all we know) is just over the top. My point is was and always will be, that you can use a standard TS safely (you have to be careful) and that if you can not afford a SawStop buying the best you can afford is the safest thing to do. (short of taking up Golf)
Doug
1. You can buy a decent BS (17”, 2 hp) from Grizzly for less than $1,000. Steel City is a bit more expensive, but it is still less than the cost of most TS, and much less than a SawStop.2. Bandsaws are safer than TS. It’s not an opinion, its physics. Bandsaws drive the blade straight down into the table- that tends to force the stock flat onto the work surface- there is no chance of a kickback. In addition, the power generated by a bandsaw is less than that of a TS: the mass of the blade is less, the width of the cut is less, and the velocity of the blade is less. A bandsaw does not need to develop the power (work over distance) that a TS does to do the same job (the classic Delta 14” BS was originally supplied with a 1/3 hp motor). Both of these factors make a BS safer. Yes, you can still injure yourself by putting your hand into the BS blade, but you can avoid that with some care. If the blade breaks, it stops. If the spinning wheel of a TS fractures under load, look out.3. Logic (and mathematics and spelling) are not your strong suit. I will not derive the transitive property here (A and B vs C). I simply said that safety is important, and I would not advise someone to buy a TS if they could not get one that (at least) had a riving knife. As a physician who has seen more than a few cases of traumatic injury, I stand by my recommendation. I would also advise motorists to wear safety belts. When I run in the early morning, I wear bright reflective clothing. I wouldn’t scale a fence with a hunting rifle without engaging the safety first. YMMV.4. I am not just suggesting that the government should review and mandate safety. It already does. You can’t buy a new car without airbags. You can’t buy paint with lead in it. If you want to drive- guess what, you have to be licensed and insured. To prescribe controlled substances, I have to have a DEA number. If you want to remodel your bathroom, you have to get a building permit and have code inspections of the work. Power tools are no different. Get used to it. 5. My house is 80 years old. It has the original knob and tube wiring in the attic. If I put an addition on my house, I won’t be allowed to use knob and tube wiring. If I were to sell my house, I would need a certificate of occupancy before it could go under agreement. My town won’t require me to change all the old knob and tube wiring to get one. But they will insist that all the new work be up to code- no knob and tube. In the same way, I don’t insist that everyone with an existing TS should junk it and buy a SawStop or safer TS with a riving knife. But if you are looking to buy a new TS, that’s exactly what I would recommend. If a saw with a riving knife is not in your price range right now, buy a bandsaw instead. And wait a bit- the Grizzly TS with riving knife is $1795- I think more saws will offer riving knives in the future and the price will come down.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Yes, conceivably the CPSC could mandate changes to table saws to make them safer (not this CPSC however but that's a different story). Mostly the table saw regulations now derive from OSHA rules. And current saws do meet those rules. The shortcomings stem not from the inability to provide safe sawing, but from the lack of convenience that makes users remove the safety devices. If used there would be very few injuries. Again it comes down to tradeoffs relating to convenience. Table saws will soon all be sold with riving knives, the reason is because of a new UL listing requirement. UL requirements are essentially based on industry consensus so essentially the saw makers have already banded together to mandate this particular safety feature . In my opinion, this is much, much more important than the saw stop feature.
I fail to see how you miss the illogicallity of your position concerning new versus existing saws. If certain new saws are so unsafe that they should be substituted for by using bandsaws, then any saw with the same unsafe characteristics should also be substituted for by using bandsaws by exactly the same logic. Who owns what at any given time makes no difference to what is safe or not, only to the economics of the situation and then only because of the depreciation of saw prices sold into the resale market.
Your comparison of the safety of BS and TS makes little sense. When bandsaw blades break the power to the blade certainly stops, but they don't always just simply stop, they go spilling around, sometimes inside the case, and sometimes onto the floor like a snake. Shoot, you can get cut just folding or unfolding a bandsaw blade. But since when is it a common mode of failure for the tablesaw blade to fracture. People are mostly hurt because of kickback. Occasionally if you are ignoring safety basics kickbacks can generate startle reactions that cause hands to go into blades. And rarely, but occasionally, people are injured the same way as on a bandsaw by simply running the hand into the blade. But I'd bet this happens as often on bandsaws as on tablesaws.
As a minor point, you certainly do need to have a building permit for certain home improvements, and even, in some cases, if the improvements are extensive enough you may well have to upgrade the knob and tube in areas not otherwise being touched. But once those improvements are complete and successfully inspected, in all the jusristictions I know, you don't again need to be inspected and apply for a new C.O. when you sell your house. Buyers may, and should if they are smart, require building inspections, but those are private affairs not involving the governmental building department or a C.O.
Edited 11/14/2007 4:29 pm ET by SteveSchoene
<"I fail to see how you miss the illogicallity of your position concerning new versus existing saws.Ummmm... I guess I fail to see the "illogicallity" (sic) because my point is not illogical. When airbags first appeared in cars, I did not advocate that everyone trade in their existing Fords, Packards and Minors to buy a new car with airbags. But if I were buying a new car at that time- I'd make certain to get one with an airbag. Similarly, if I was giving a car to a son or daughter new to driving today, I might buy an old beater for them to start out with- but not so old that it didn't have an airbag.If I were buying a new TS today (and will be soon, if I can find the room in my shop), I'd buy a SawStop or at least a saw with a riving knife. Why? Because I'd want the safest saw I could fit in the shop, as I would plan on having it for at least 20 years- and perhaps turning it over to a son or granddaughter- and would want them to be safe as well. I'd be making a safety decision for decades to come.The fact that so many schools and production shps are buying SawStops reassures me that the company will be around for a while, and that the standards set by the saw will raise the bar for other manufacturers as well. Thta means we all stand to benefit.Your remarks regarding the BS-TS comparison are pretty lame. My comparison is sound- if you ask any high school shop teacher who has been at it for more than a few years whether he worries about TS injuries or BS injuries more, I have no doubt what the most common reply would be.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
If the spinning wheel of a TS fractures under load, look out. Very, very occasionally carbide tip flies from a table saw blade. Saw blades don't fracture under load. The additional safety from bandsaws comes almost entirely from the absence of kick back. That does make them considerably safer than table saws. But aside from kickback, and kickback related injuries I'm not sure that more people are cut by the blade of table saws than by bandsaws. I do recognize that tablesaw cuts are likely to be much more traumatic.
...because my point is not illogical. Surely you are kidding if you don't see the inconsistency in the idea that it's OK by you to keep your unsafe tablesaw and only buy a safe one if you don't already own one. It certainly is an inconsistency, that you defend only by arguing for a different inconsistency, albeit somewhat more defensible only because the market for used cars discounts them even more relative to their expected life than the market for used table saws. The only reason that it makes any sense at all is, as I said, a purely financial one, derived only from an economic inefficiency in the market for used saws.
The fact that so many schools and production shps are buying SawStops reassures me that the company will be around for a while. How many is that-- and how does the number compare to the breakeven volume for SawStop. You, or I, clearly do not have enough information about the SawStop company to assert that the company will be around for a while. Data are not available about SawStop's financial status. How many have been sold in total? What is the gross margin? What are the terms of their manufacturing contracts? Does does the company have debt outstanding? Have they ever made a profit? I presume the only asset is intellectual property and a few saws in inventory. Against that there is reason to suppose that they could face dramatic liability issues should the device fail on some occasion. And, complicated devices do fail upon occasion. What kind of liability insurance does the company have, and what percentage of sales goes to pay for it? Some young surgeon may own the company if he or she were to lose a finger.
As you note, a high quality saw should be around for a very long time (my Unisaw has a 1945 date on it.) Current Saw Stop sales may well be picking off the low hanging fruit, but that may not tell us much about the long term viability. What happens to SawStop when the patents expire in less than 20 years. Don't expect to see much direct competition until patents near expiration.
That new saws will all have riving knives is a done deal. If kickback can be dramatically reduced by these much simpler and less expensive devices, what impetous is their for expanding share of the much more expensive SawStop however well it does at addressing the smaller issue of direct contact with blades.
You are in a poor position to argue logic. Your reasoning is false, in fact it is a well known fallacy: that of the false dilemma. In this fallacy, one argues that there are only two possibilities- no others may exist. Your fallacy states that if I assert that someone planning to buy a new TS should buy a new saw with a riving knife, then I must either 1) replace any existing saw (even if I were not planning on buying a new saw at all) with a new safer saw or 2) buy a TS without a riving knife or braking mechanism. Thus, by your rhetoric (it's not logic), I must insist that everyone must immediately buy a new safer, replacement TS or never buy one.The argument falls apart when one realizes that there are more than two options- one can,for example, simply resolve to buy a riving knife saw when it is time to replace an existing saw, or, if a newbie, when one plans to buy a first TS. You could also buy a BS instead which is another safer alternative. Or you may decide to buy a new, safer TS for changed circumstances. It might be reasonable for an experienced WWr who is less concerned about TS safety at present to consider buying a safer saw when his adolescent son enters the shop. The argument is utilitarian: even if someone waits a year or two or five to replace a saw with a safer model, overall the risk of accident declines as safer saws replace less safe ones.I am struck by your inability to address the substance of my original argument. You seem to be intent upon putting words into my mouth or tatting up tired rhetorical tautologies. It seems to me that you would like to paint my original mild assertion as a mandate- and not just a personal one, but one that reflects darkly future intrusion by the government.Finally, you said "But aside from kickback, and kickback related injuries..." Huh? Excuse me? Aside from kickback? Isn't that a little like saying "Aside from cancer, handling asbestos isn't so bad", or "Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" Kickback is a major safety issue, not an aside. To say that aside from kickback (the major risk factor of a TS), a BS and a TS have similar safety profiles is just inane.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I see you are working hard to shift gears out of your original position, which was hardly that of mild assertion. You went for the dramatic-- Frankly, safety IS that important. in response to a concern by Doug that for some that the $2,000 increment for a saw stop was not feasible or necessarily a desirable choice. It is in that context were you proposed that if one couldn't afford the added costs that they not buy a tablesaw at all but use a 16" bandsaw instead. Nor did it seem a mild assertion when you, not I, brought up the issue of what you now call "a dark future intrusion by government" You said: Since the market has been largely ineffective in bringing safer designs for TS to Americans (as opposed to Europeans), one can make an argument that there is a role for government regulation to foster safety. Emphasis added.
I'm glad you are coming around to the more flexible view that realizes that financial positions can be quite important for individuals. I'm glad too that you are now saying that you don't favor mandates, viewing governments role as a "dark...intrusion" That's my point. Safety is important, but the cost of safety isn't a matter to be dismissed lightly. Individual choices in a nuanced world are important too, safety is only one of many competing interests that can be addressed over time as circumstances change.
The point about comparing tablesaws and bandsaws "aside from kickback risk" is a simple one. I must not have been sufficiently clear. I believe that kickback is the major tablesaw risk and the primary factor that makes tablesaws riskier than bandsaws if not addressed. However, it is a controllable risk. I use a splitter with kickback pawls (Beisemeyer) religiously and believe that by doing so I have substantially reduced the kickback risk. Riving knives do it even better--to a some degree because their position closer to the blade is more mechanically effective but mostly because there is almost no reason to remove them, so that they are in use more of the time. So, if one has reduced kickback risk from the tablesaw, the other risks are much more comparable to the bandsaw--it's the same dumb inattention that lets you push your thumb straight into the path of the blade on either bandsaw or tablesaw. I'll refrain from the personal invective.
I love these Sawstop threads. They've been going on for over two years in various forms, each time the same arguments are stated and maybe one knew twist. In the end it almost always goes back to the attempt at getting it mandated. I say, who cares! Get on with your lives. If you want a safe saw this is the safest on the market. Is the SS mechanism that important, only you can decide.
I have to agree with Glaucon (as I read him). People in the market for a new table saw should get the safest saw possible. At the very least they should get a saw with a riving knife, which I consider the biggest improvement in safety. (From his initial comments, I never thought the he was saying I should ditch my current saw in favour of a Sawstop.)
In the end I've never read an argument against the Sawstop that holds any water. Mandate and the cost, don't change the fact that the saw is the safest saw on the market. Argument regarding people using it unsafely because it has a computer... there is no proof. All the Sawstop buyers so far, seem to be proponents of safe table saw usage in general. Finally the addition of guards etc to other table saws, still will not change the fact that you can add these to the Sawstop and again increase it's safety.
Ideally, you never want to activate the brake... Its kind of like the life insurance policy I just took out...
Buster,You should ditch your current saw in favor of a SawStop.LOL,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You should ditch your current saw in favor of a SawStop.
I'd like to but I can't; I'm opposed to business, government, I'm incredibly reckless when faced with safety devices and I'm cheap. I also hate lawyers.
LOL
Buster
PS: For the record, when I upgrade the new saw will have a riving knife.
<" I'm opposed to business, government, I'm incredibly reckless when faced with safety devices and I'm cheap. I also hate lawyers.">And also airbags. Hate airbags. And I'm opposed to fluorinating the water supply. And to world government. This whole SawStop thing is nothing more than a European conspiracy to force red-blooded Americans to buy them imported slider saws. Like Felder. Damn Frogs...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I'm new to woodworking. I had been repressing the desire to do woodworking for years because of safety concerns. Out of the blue, I just decided to take the risk.
Through my job, I meet the public. An amazing number of men have hand injuries--partially missing fingers, scars, etc. Naturally, I ask them what happened. Every accident described was "just one of those things," totally unforeseen, i.e. not something the individual could have avoided.
The second group are woodworkers or others who know about somebody else's injury. One morning within the space of about 2 hours, I heard three independent stories of horrible injuries (one guy cut his arm off with a chop saw). Some of the stories that bother me the most are the ones about guys who have done woodworking for 30 years and never had a problem until one day. . .
I find the cost of all things "woodworking" to be astounding--not just the Saw Stop. How a regular guy with family responsibilities can ever afford to equip a shop is almost beyond me. My approach has been to take a woodworking course at the local community college ( the regulars sign up quarter after quarter) and start accumulating hand tools and small power tools. One day, I will buy a Saw Stop.
At the risk of sounding elitist, my position--after hearing dozens of injury stories--is that one should do whatever is necessary to have the safest saw. I suspect the incidence of serious injury is far higher than most people realize.
z3
I took a similar approach- WWr courses at a local arts college- and slowly collected tools for a shop. I remember when I first saw the price of a LN handplane and couldn't for the life of me figure out why anyone would pay that much for a plane... now I have a few LNs and wouldn't part with my 4 1/2.As for injuries, I don't know whether there are reliable numbers for serious trauma from WWing equipment. What bothers me about some of the posts I've seen here is the attitude adopted by some that such injuries are the result of human error, and that by being careful, they can be avoided. I think this is more a way of assigning blame, than of avoiding accidents- and seems smug. From what I have seen, the SS seems to be not only safe, but well made. I can't recall a post decrying the quality of the saw or its fit and finish (and have seen more than a few on both Deltas and PMs). I would hope that other manufacturers such as Steel City might adopt similar technology- and increase its footprint in shops around the U.S.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Dottorre,
While I agree with most of what you and others have said about safety and the SawStop, there are thousands of woodworkers who have never had a serious injury using equipment that I would avoid at all costs. Perhaps they've been lucky, but more than likely, they use safe routines and are cautious by nature. My grandfather never had a serious injury and worked around saws all his life. He contended that the most dangerous tool in the shop was a chisel. Distraction and inattention are likely the most common precursors. I saw a middle school girl the other day who cut her thumb on the bandsaw in shop class. When I asked her what happened, she related that she was cutting an antler and the bell rang. She looked up while still cutting. Fortunately, the laceration could be closed with steristrips.
When I think about it, I have had more injuries in the kitchen, between kitchen knives, graters, mandolins and broken glasses than I ever had in my shop.
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy"_Ben Franklin
Neil
The point about not understanding the setting aside kick back when talking about the BS vs the TS is that the saw stop's main feature does nothing to stop that. It only stops the blade if you touch it. This is a danger on the BS also.
As for the knife, all well and good, but you still have the issue that not everyone can afford a saw with them. If you can fine, buy one, but to suggest that you should either buy a high end saw or nothing at all is extreme. And will in the end kill this hobby we all love. How? Buy keeping new people out of it. It is one thing to pay a few hundred for a saw, it is another thing to have to pay a few grand for one. A fact that will keep out a lot of people if the suggestion is taken. As for the BS substitute there are things that you can not do (or do as well) with a BS. Also would you not be more in need of a jointer? Or else do a LOT of hand planing/sanding? Either of which would require more money, more skill, or more time. Something that newbies are not known to have in large amounts.
The point I originally made and still stand buy is that you should buy the best and safest you can afford to buy, but for many that would not be a Saw Stop (or a top end saw of any brand) I still stand buy the fact that you are safer buying the best you can afford then going cheep to safe up for the day when you can (hopefully) buy the best.
By the way, I like the part about my spelling issues, not sure how that helped your argument but as long as it makes you feel better. Of course the fact that some of us may have valid reasons for said spelling issues seams to have escaped you. So in short before picking on someone for something not related to the subject (and spelling, is not what we are talking about on this post) you may want to stop and think about the other guy. This is at least part of your problem. You do not seam to be able to look at it from the other guys point of view. Because you can afford to get a top end tool, you seam to think that everyone should or they should stay out of the TS market (and frankly for most this means staying out of wood working) And in the case of my spelling (or lack of same) you assume because you do not have issue with spelling that anyone that does is free game. Not sure what you where trying to say buy pointing out my spelling (presumably you were using it as an example of lack of IQ) but you failed to consider the other side of the issue. Like say the fact that I may have what is today called a learning disability with spelling and that there is only so much that spell checker can do for you. Of course we would not want this to effect you so. please feel free to continue commenting on it. While you are at it (commenting on things not related to the topic) I stand about 6'5" and have a bit to much weight on me so you may want to comment on that. Or the fact that I have glasses (I could get my eyes fixed for only a few grand), or perhaps the fact that I have a broken nose? So how about we stay away from comments designed to make the other guy look small and just stick with the topic at hand?
Doug
all right, I'm going to give this a try...I'll be lucky if anybody reads this.
'Afford' seems to be the basis of much of this argument. Few of us can really afford this as a hobby. I'm not talking about a $4k saw or $400 plane. I mean that few of us can afford the risk that goes along with it. Who has the hobby-inflicted ER visit budgeted into their monthly expenses? which of us can go 3-6 months without work due to a hobby? I think that the answer is probably 'few.'
I have been lucky enough to save a little money in case of an emergency. I don't think my wife would like the idea of this including a tablesaw related injury. If I need to go without a paycheck due to a car accident, I can afford that. If I need to go the same period without a paycheck due to my desire to make furniture that sits in my basement unupholseterd, I can't. But I still go to my basement every single night.
I don't think that any of us that are uninjured have monetized what we're actually risking, it is quite significant regardless of how safe you feel. What Glaucon is saying (please forgive me if I'm wrong) is that if we choose to take on this significant risk, he would advise, due to the new technologies and improvements to safety in general, paying up for ss or riving knife, reducing it with bandsaw, waiting for it to be cheaper or we have more money to insure against the unexpected. The last thing a person with $500 in the bank can 'afford' is a $100 table top table saw. They're risking bankruptcy for a hobby, even the careful ones.
Saving for the proper equipment will make this hobby much more affordable. Buy insurance only for things you cannot afford to lose. It may cost more out of pocket up front, but one's expectancy for total out-of-pocket cost throughout a lifetime of enjoyment will be reduced. It's an insurance policy that all should consider.
The one thing that Glaucon REFUSES to acknowledge throughout is that every time I change my bandsaw blade my fingers get pricked. This doesn't happen with my table saw blade:)
Edited 11/16/2007 3:00 pm ET by MattInPA
Well said.And wear gloves.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Gloves? just another accessory to your bandsaw solution...
Doug,Here is a listing of some of your recent statements:"And perhaps if we all wished it really really hard and clap we can bring tinker bell back from the dead." (I was unaware that she had been that sick)."Second off Medicare IS socialized Medicine, it is not called that but it IS THAT. It is just a form of it that discriminates against the young.""Tell me in your schooling did they teach you that if B is a subset of A and C is a sub set of B then even with out being told it you know that C is a sub set of A?"I think they range from the uninformed to the inflammatory. You tend to run your mouth, and you shoot form the hip. All of which is jake with me until you start re-characterizing my words to suit your own ends.See, I tend to think and chose my words carefully. I check my spelling. And I try not to make blanket statements- which is why I really take issue with you when you rewrite my posts.The other thing I don't like is the whole bully mentality. The idea that you can blow smoke and rant, and when someone calls you on it, you reinvent yourself as the victim- an object of pity. You don't consider the effect your words might have on others, how inflammatory some of them are- but boy, you sure don't like it when someone hurts your feelings.I have not noted any correlation between education and good sense here at Knots. Some who haven't gone far in school seem to have a world of experience and insight and I enjoy reading their posts. But, I don't like it when someone takes cheap shots at the elderly and their health care, or someone else's bank account or even lawyers. Try being more civil, you might be treated better in return.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Doc, the last 3 paragraphs are well stated.
P.S. I also enjoy your footer or tagline at the end . . . .I chuckle everytime I see it.
Away from the forums for awhile and everyone's talkin' Sawstop again. Didn't we beat this horse to death a couple of years back? I'm not complaining, just an observation.
Anyway I feel compelled to toss my hat in as a user of one of these saws for nearly two years in a pro shop.
MY opinions:
1. Sawstop saws are a better quality than the Unisaws and Powermatics in the same class having used them all in a professional setting
2. Sawstop saws are NOT perfect (there are bugs that need to be worked out)
3. ANY equipment can be dangerous
4. Sharp tools are safe tools
5. Commercial duty equipment is expensive
6. Purchasing a high quality tool does not make you a better woodworker
7. Education is your best defense against injury regardless of which equipment is being used
8. If you have any questions regarding the safe use of any equipment, put away your pride and ask someone with the knowledge for help
I have to wonder sometimes: Who exactly is the target audience for the Sawstop? I'm just not so sure hobbyists are at the top of the list.
-Paul
The End. hard to argue any of that.
Exactly.
Wish I could take credit for the tag line- but I think it belongs to Ted Williams.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Okay, I'll bite. How in the world do you chop off an entire arm with a chop saw? I tried it. The best I could do was three fingers on my left hand. Just kidding.
yellowtail, I may have my saws mixed up. Maybe it was a sliding miter saw. Anyway, the guy was using his left hand to hold a workpiece on the right side of the blade. He was wearing a bulky coat/shirt/? When he brought the blade down (forward?), the blade caught the sleeve. There was a little bit of skin left holding the lower arm to the upper arm.
More than you wanted to know?
Human error can't be eliminated, but there are many ways to reduce its impact, not just the SawStop method of relying on a kind of software coupled to a mechanical device. Direct hand contact with the cutting blade is one of the easiest forms of table saw injury to avoid. Safe practices can do it pretty well--not the case with automobiles where the actions of others are a much bigger influence.
But if you don't want to do much thinking or use safe practices, the Brett guard, and I presume other quality guards, reduces that risk to almost nil, for less than $430. That is doing the same job as the Saw Stop for an incremental $2,000 over the cost of a very decent cabinet saw, with a good guard. Using such a guard is, as I stated, a matter of convenience. It's use pretty much eliminates injury from the momentary lapses caused by human error. All human error isn't preventable, but the errors can be reduced to those of almost deliberate choice.
Besides, using only a band saw isn't always feasible, and where it is also exposes the user to greater use of a different form of accident producing machine--the jointer. I suppose hand saws are a bit safer, though I've been cut more often with them than with my table saw. (Several minor cuts compared to none at all.)
For a good many folks, saving up for a SawStop just isn't an option. The increment may mean several house payments, or the ability to send a kid to college. It's exaggeration to compare the costs of an injury directly to the cost of the Saw Stop. The comparison should really be more like comparing the cost of the injury with a 1 in 10,000 chance (or some such probability number--I have no data for any particular number) with the certainty of spending the incremental dollars. We can't live in a world without risk-we can only balance them.
Alas we have a world today that things we can/should/must eliminate all risks and that if we/you/the gov/companies don't then some one did something wrong. Sometimes you just have to take a risk, can/should you minimize it? Yes, but we have to be reasonable about it, and realize that their are other options (and other safety concerns) and that not everyone can afford the best and safest.
And in saw stops case, their are concerns that need to be considered. Such as cost, chance of and accident that this would prevent, other safety options, the cost of a miss fire (they do happen) and other things, I may not be thinking about at this point.
Doug
There is a misconception concerning the SawStop: people relax and don't worry about the potential danger of using a tablesaw because there is a computer that will prevent any serious injury. That is just not so. Before I bought a SawStop a year ago I used a Delta contractor saw for about two years. The saw always made me nervous and after a kickback injury, really nervous (read scared)...I do not ever feel relaxed using the new saw...I do not believe that anything is 100% reliable and don't believe the riving knife will prevent every incidence of kickback...I also believe that someday, somewhere someone will get seriously injured using the sawstop..personally, I like my body parts too much to be that person...I would prefer intactness to a large monetary settlment..so I use every bit as much caution today as I did the day after the kickback incident...at some point I plan to get an overhead blade guard because I don't use the stock guard as much as I should...
There are alot of people who can never afford or justify the cost of a SawStop and who will exercise reasonable caution and will never have a serious accident..being a someone impulsive, inattentive guy, I don't trust myself to always do the right thing in terms of safety...I would like to BELIEVE I will but experience has taught me otherwise..
If one goes back through Knots discussions, everything that can be said about the SawStop, both good and bad has already been said, over and over again.
Neil
I look at it a little bit differently. The inventor of the Saw Stop mechanism (and it is a pretty amazing mechanism) really hit on something that would revolutionize one of the most inherently dangerous shop machines. He tried to market it to all of the saw companies, but was turned down by each and every one of them (think auto manufacturers lobbying for seat belt laws when mandatory air bags were proposed) because they didn't want to retrofit their saws (and more importantly didn't want to pay any licensing fees). So, they set out to make their own saw from the ground up, and yes, it is expensive. But at least they had the decency to make a top notch saw to wrap around their safety device. I am sure given their resources, Delta or WMH could have made the saw a little bit cheaper. But the Saw Stop guys started from square one and totally re-engineered the table saw. There is a lot more reflected in the price of that Saw than the commodity values of the components. Plus, it's not like they're trying to force schools and pro shops to fork over $10,000 for these things. When you come right down to it, there is an approximate $800 premium over a comparable Powermatic. And it might even be $800 better than the PM without the safety. I think that this device will be in most table saws ten years from now, just like air bags are in virtually every car now. They started with the top-end cars, now most people would not buy a car without air bags.
good stuff Jim. From a guy who took one in the hand on "something that should not happen."
Which one! I also just finished setting up my Mini Max S315WS sliding table saw. The band saw is great. I messed with the factory settings before I read the directions, which may be the reason I have a little more vibration than I'd like, so I need to get some in here to tune it up for me. Now the panel saw is a cut above any thing I've ever owned. It took me longer to get it off the pallet and into the shop than it did to assemble and tune it up. It's machined so well that everything goes together easily, although it would have been a little faster had I some help. I did it all, by myself, except to push it into the shop. I'm on my way to get some 12" blades this morning. The Mini-Max Co. has been an absolute pleasure to deal with. Once I got the panel saw in there I realized that there was just no way I could keep my Powermatic 66. So if there's any one reading this in the San Diego area that would love to have a tricked out Powermatic then pay attention to Craig's list some time toward the end of this week or next. I'll also be selling my Delta 14" band saw which is in mint condition. Thanks for asking!
Danny, in tool heaven!
Dear Danny,
Hey, that's great news! OK, can we get following:1) A review with pictures of the slider.
2) Same for bandsaw. By the way, what bandsaw did you end up getting?Best,John
I ended up getting a Jet 20" 3HP band saw that takes 150" blades. Pictures with a review are forth coming. I would also like to include in my review a summary of my experience in dealing with Mini-Max vrs. Felder. I'll give a brief summary of that now. Mini-Max was far easier to deal with and pleasant in doing so. Similar Felder units were significantly more costly, which IMO make them not nearly as good a value as the Mini-Max sliders. This opinion is not based on the use of these units, but on having talked and dealt with sales people from both companies over a three year period and having inspected these saws at two different woodworking shows over that same time. The sales staff at Mini-Max were knowledgeable, friendly and professional. Their sales staff were genuinely interested in seeing that I ended up with a saw that was right for me and my situation. They did not try to down talk the competition. They let their products speak for themselves. Their sliding panel saws IMO have a simpler and cleaner lay out than the Felder units. The Mini Max web site is much easier to navigate and understand. I like the demonstration videos that they have on line. Seeing them in action helps a lot in making a purchase decision. Their pricing is straight forward and uncomplicated vrs the Felder site. I am not alone in this opinion. I have a friend who does a significant amount of business for a very large corporation that had a similar bad experience with Felder and said he would never do business with them again. Enough said!
"Sawstop is a new company and may or not be in business in twenty years..."I guess the best way to ensure that doesn't happen is to buy their products. :)I'm with you on the slider, if my shop could accommodate one I'd take out the credit card in a heartbeat. My lust grows with every sheet of MDF I muscle onto the table!
I agree, the Sawstop is a “bit pricey”. However in their defense I suspect they are in the process of stock piling cash for the inevitable lawsuits that will fly as soon as the idiots of the world have one too many drinks and try to impress their friends by slapping the running saw blade. Have you bought a ladder lately and seen all the warning stickers that have come about as a result of lawsuits? “Don’t stand on the top step”, “Don’t give birth on the ladder”, etc.. Since the Sawstop is built around the concept of safety, I suspect they will be more vulnerable to lawsuits than others. I can see the court case now - “did the Sawstop people tell you not to stick your manhood into the running blade”? “No they did not!” Guilty! - 10 million dollars because he can no longer make babies.
In all seriousness, it takes guts to build a new product around the concept of safety.
Dear Wood,
Oh, now we can't even have birthing on a ladder!!?? I hear you and you are correct, although my understanding is that the developer IS a lawyer............ go figure........Best,John
Ain't it the truth! Can't buy anything these days without reading fourteen pages of warnings/disclaimers/waivers etc. My spray gun came with very explicit instructions never to "point spray gun at any part of the body or at anyone else".
What do you call a boat load lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
A good start
Thought you might like these lawyers.
So you hate lawyers, fine. Next time you or a loved one get sued, be sure to call a bus driver, a bartender, a plumber, or tree trimmer or farmer. Next time you get screwed on a business deal, just smile and thank your lucky stars you didn't waste any money on having a lawyer review the contract documents before you signed away your rights.
Gosh, aren't lawyers responsible for the dramatic decrease in serious injuries in auto accidents due to seatbelts, and more recently airbags? Most of the consumer safety laws are due to lawyers being concerned about people getting injured when it would have been relatively easy to guard against the injury.
Does safety add to the cost of manufacturing? SURE it does! Does preventative medical and dental care cost more in the SHORT term? SURE it does! Is it worth it to you and society? I think so, but what the heck do I know, I'm just one of those lawyers you all seem to love to hate.
Jeez, is this the first time you have been exposed to people making fun of lawyers? Sure there are good, responsible lawyers out there, and when you need one you had better get one, because they can save your a#@. But you know as well as the rest of us that there are also plenty of ambulance chasers and other assorted shysters who bring frivolous lawsuit after frivolous lawsuit, and that hurts the economy and the legal system in this country tremendously.
sure, there are the proverbial jerks in every profession or calling, just as there are the good guys/ladies too.
but what i get tired of are the inane and gratuitous slams against lawyers. it used to be that we would do the gratuitous and unthinking slams against the Polish (no, i am Irish), the Blacks (yeah, lily white too), the Japanese, the homosexuals (sorry, i'm married with 5 kids), the whoever and whatever that was different than the speaker.
my point is, what the heck did the lawyer comment add to the post?
so, who peed in my Cheerios today? I don't know, but it gets a little old and tiresome to always be reading the "lawyer crap". Are the people posting these comments well versed on the subject? Do they want to enter into an intellectual debate about the societal values that are reflected in the laws of the land? . . . . or do they just want to take cheap shots at someone else's expense?
Fair enough.
Hey as long as we are talking, I have a cousin who cut his arm pretty severely while breaking into a house with the intent of robbing said home. He is interested in filing a lawsuit against the homeowner to pay for his med. bills and 20 or 30 thousand for pain and suffering. Want to take the case? Juuuust kidding! :-)
Rob
One of my favorite urban legends is the notion that we live in a time of increasing litigation due to lawyers filing frivolous law suits. People accept this legend as if were gospel. But in fact, where I live the county law library that is partly funded from the filing fees of law suits can't afford to keep its holdings current because of the great decrease of law suits filed, and thus, its funding.
This may be due to the general publics distrust and disgust with our legal system. I have had one situation where I went to court in a lawsuit... I sued the other guy. I won... after legal fees it only cost me $30k. (I won $5,000) my attorney who is a nice guy was motivated and encouraged me to take this to court as I could not loose... I did not... He got $30K in legal fees... I got $5K for a problem... a loss that cost me $80K due to improper and fraudulent misrepresentation by a property seller where I unfortunately could not find 2 people who had signed a complaint against the seller prior to my purchase with the county health department. (without them it was heresy evidence which was not admissible and without that our case was substantially weakened which was not mentioned by our attorney.) The real issue is the attorney gets paid. Had we known what we were in for... guaranteed win or not I would have not gone through with the suit though I am glad the guy gets punished by paying attorneys fees and our $5K it was just not worth the process... I have been an expert witness in about 4 Real Estate cases... I have never seen a single suit go the way I expected. In the future... If I get screwed... you guys heard it here... Ill push, cajole, threaten and bluff but will never go through with a suit ever again.That now out of the way. I did trade a new unisaw (for sale here in the classifieds) for a Sawstop... what convinced me you ask... a tool related injury... from a paddle bit in a drill. The pin pulled out of the side of the block (tore through) and bounced and a paddle scraped across the back of my thumb... worst tool related injury I have ever had. It cost me $800 for stitches and such... If I could sawstop my drill as well I would. Working with tools is an inherently dangerous activity. I may never get hurt... I hope I will never use my spare cartridges. But I guarantee that one trip to the hospital... would pay for the difference between a PM 2000 and a sawstop. I hope I never look down at my hand and say... wow... what a good investment. But I am not going to trust that there will never ever be a chance that I could find myself in that situation...Drew
Sorry to hear about your legal adventure- someone once said no one wins going to court- except the lawyers. So negotiating down to a court date may often be your best play.As for your observation about safety- I concur. I think the cost of a safer TS is worth it. I'm not sure those who see this in terms of profit and loss sufficiently appreciate what a nice and useful thing an uninjured hand is. Hopefully, options will increase going forward- but I still prefer to rip on a BS.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I saw the 'hot dog' demo a couple of months ago on the SawStop. Man was it impressive! The sucker really worked and didn't even draw blood on the hot dog.
Just wish it was a little less expensive<g>...i know, I know...it is still cheaper than a trip to the emergency room!
Skip
http://www.ShopFileR.com
Dear Skip,
For the record, I think that the "Sawstop" is fully worth its price. I am not a big "safety" guy, but the feature is the first real improvement to this style of saw (As opposed to Euro) that has come along, probably since the 1930's. If I were looking for a saw, I think that a Euro slider would be my first choice, if that was too expensive, then the Sawstop. If Ii didn't have the money for a Sawstop, I would save up for one as I really think that for the extra $ it is really worth it. You get what would appear to be a top-notch saw plus the safety feature. Best,John
They have Sawstop table saws at the community college in Oakland and they are really nice saws when I am feeling flush and have the cash I will probabley get one. I am very impressed with the fit and finish of the saw in general. In weired sort of way I think the saw break makes me more aware of the blade. Anyway good luck with your purchase.
Troy
OK, I just read this thread for the first time and feel I have to add my two cents.
Guess what. I am a lawyer. And damn proud of it. People come into my office every day with horrendous problems and I do my best to make those problems right. And most of my colleagues do the same thing every day. It is a TOUGH job. I walk in the house at night exhausted. I don't really mind the lawyer jokes; I get a kick out of them. But the various comments from people who are uninformed or just like to spout cliches about lawyers are bulls---. There are various laws and enforcement mechanisms which are designed to minimize frivolous lawsuits.
Now to the Sawstop. I am dying for one (poor choice of words, perhaps). I am not wealthy, even though I practice law (another common misunderstanding). I love making furniture. It is my therapy when I am not in a Courtroom. When I have the extra money, I am buying the Sawstop. It is absolutely a no-brainer. So it's a thou more than a powermatic. Just the peace of mind is worth that to me. And if the unexpected does happen, how expensive would be the cost of medical bills and lost work.
So as I toil in the Courtrooms of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, thinking of woodworking while I am waiting for trial, I look forward to the day when I can spring for my Sawstop. Patrick M. Morris, Atty. at Law
I was not the one making comments about lawyers, some of my best friends are lawyers:). I do like the sawstop saws.Troy
Morning Troy:
Thanks for the note. I was not implying that you made the comments about lawyers. You were simply the last poster in the thread when I made my comments.
PMM
Guess what. I am a lawyer. And damn proud of it.
Me too.
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