I spent less time picking out my wife!
A few weeks ago, I posted a question here about the Ridgid 3612 Table saw. Got pretty positive feedback from respondents…thank you all for taking the time. I bought the saw and, frankly, it does not cut straight. I’ve narrowed the problem down to a bent arbor. Called Ridgid, they referred me to local service techs who are of no help. I’m giving up on this saw and returning it!!
Now that I’ve learned the lesson (again) that you get what you pay for, I’m looking for recommendations for a good quality table saw with the following features:
– Cast Iron table and extensions
– High quality Biesmeyer style fence
– 30″ rip capacity (Minimum)
– 2 hp motor
– left tilt
– Cabinet style preferred but not required
– dust port
– Under $1000.
So far, I’ve looked online at the General 185LM1, Grizzly 1023, Jet Xacta, Powermatic 64A, and the new Delta x5 Contractor’s saw.
I’m leaning toward the General. Anyone got any experience with this saw? I’m a little nervous about the local dealer I’d have to buy it from, he’s got a bad rep for service.
Replies
Ron,
That has got to be frustrating. I've got the Grizzly 1023s and can't say enough good things about it. The General is supposed to be heavier and better quality machine if it's made in Canada and not General International. Good luck
It's funny you mention General International. I just got off the phone with the General rep and he was very careful to point out that the tool I'm looking at is made in Taiwan for General International....this concerns me a bit.
How is Grizzly to deal with on big stuff like this? I've never bought a big machine from them. What happens if it breaks? Do they have local service techs?
Ron,
Grizzly lives or dies based upon it reputation. Generally speaking, they are very responsive to customer issues....no questions asked kinda responsiveness...
The big fear is always how will I get the box off the truck and into my shop...and what if something is broke. The trucking company makes you inspect the outside of the box well upon delivery...that covers their backside. The trucking personnel can be very helpful...however, I opened the box and seperated the cast iron leafs (about 50 lbs each) could have removed the top (another 100lbs about) and then moved the cabinet quite easily (about 100 lbs),,,the rest of the weight is the fense and stuff.
Most studies have valued the Grizzly as the best value on the market.
Ron,
Just a couple of other comments that may be of use to you. First of all, I looked at saws for over a year. I came to the conclusion that I wanted a cabinet saw...not because I absolutely needed it but because I wanted it...and quite frankly, there comes a point in ones life..blah, blah, blah.
Of course, I'm also a cheap sob...some call it yankee frugality...its being cheap. After careful study it came down to a used Delta, Powermatic or General ..or a Grizzly. The problem with used is finding one....and I don't have enough knowledge or experience to buy a saw from another user...I need a dealer who will guarantee the product ..at least stand behind it....or else I could be just buying someone else's headache. That is why I went with the Griz.
Do what you have to do to avoid Taiwanese made tools. I'd buy used before I bought Chinese.
"Made in Taiwan" does not equal "Made in China." Absolutely no intent to hijack this thread, just making a clarification.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
A distinction without a difference in everything but geo-politics.
A distinction without a difference in everything but geo-politics.Not really. I've been to China. It isn't Taiwan.
I lived in Taiwan for fifteen years.
Are you sure? Sure it was Taiwan, and not China? <G>!!!!
Hey, BossCrunk-
Cool for American pride and everything, but the Chinese are going to be on the moon in a few years (and we couldn't go back for a long, long time), and the computer you are typing on wouldn't be there if it wasn't for Taiwan. In short- saying Taiwan and China are "without a difference" is... near sighted.
And Ron-
Go for the Grizzly- I have the 1023s. They make excellent tools, and the ones I've had delivered have made it all the way into my shop before I touched them. Their customer service is far beyond anything I've ever received from Jet or Delta. Honestly there just isn't a huge difference having worked on all of them, except for price and that Grizzly has consistently gone out of their way to get, and keep my business.
While I mentioned old Powermatic and Delta as better than new Grizzly, if I were buying new it would be European for sure.
There is no free lunch. Cheap is cheap and will always be cheap.
The Taiwanese do many, many things extraordinarily well, but producing an extremely high quality woodworking tool at a discount price point is not one of them.
Edited 10/9/2003 2:48:09 PM ET by BossCrunk
"producing an extremely high quality woodworking tool at a discount price point " -- Near as I can tell, no one is saying they do or is expecting them to. I believe the gist of the testimony from satisfied 1023 users is that it is a quality saw that will perform accurately, dependably and with very low vibration for a lower cost than comparable saws. Even if it's only a difference of $300 or $400, that can be significant for many of us. I wouldn't expect to get an "extremely high quality" cabinet saw for less than $3000, but I'm not expecting the 1023 to fill that niche either.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you go with the Grizzly, keep in mind there's a big fence difference between the 1023S and the 1023Z. Usually, the Z models are better, but (IMO) not in this case -- the 1023S has the Shop Fox Classic fence, which is a Beisemeyer clone and, from what I've read, way better than the newer SF fence that comes with the Z-model.
With regard to your problem with Rigid, no surprise you want to return the saw (or already have...) but 'twere I you, I'd raise Heck with Rigid about the lack of service you got from the techs and Rigid's seeming inability or unwillingness to put the situation right. Someone's head needs to roll on this one.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Ron!
I really don't think you'll be happy with anything less than a unisaw quality tool. In order to keep price down , something has to give somewhere and it will show up sometimes all the way through a machine in ways that will affect performance. It's one thing if you are trying to upgrade from a skilsaw, but quite another when you are trying to do quality joinery. I would also suggest looking for a used machine of a better quality. The left tilt may be harder to find but for what I paid for my two unisaws, I've learned to live with the right tilt and keep my eyes open for the lefty. ( I got one for 50.00..... ya gotta be quick!)
Good Luck!
Tai
Can I buy the lefty from you?
Ron,
I have a Grizzly 1023ZX I bought used. It works great and the guy I bought it from is a real Grizzly fan. He was moving to Florida from NY and it was going to be cheaper to sell the heavy stuff here and re-buy from Grizzly rather than paying the freight.
Based on my experience the last 6 months I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them.
BTW, I suspect that even the "Made in the USA" labeled products have a significant amount of foreign content. Made in Taiwan doesn't mean the same today as in the past.
Ron, I bought a General 260 Lathe 16 to 18 years ago, there have been several things I have been unhappy with through the years. Back then it was one of the largest lathes I could purchase and the price was up there also. I had used a general TS and Band saw quite a bit back 35 years ago and didn't seem to have any problems with them, but they were not mine.
Marsh
Take that saw back to the HD and get your money, Then go pick yerself up a delta contractors or a jet contractors. you will be happy with either.
Darkworksite4: Subterráneo en la república de gente de Calif
Looking for the perfect table saw is like looking for the perfect spouse. You look, and you look, and you look. After a while you get tired of looking and you just pick one. :P
Hi Ron I have the General Intl' 185 and have absolutely no complaints. The manual leaves alot to be desired and took alittle head scratching to figure things out. The fence is made in Canada under licience from Beisemeyer. I looked at all the models you listed and more. What sold me on the GI was the local Dealer who was excellent. It sure was nice to phone somebody who actually took an interest in my problems and was knowledgeable enough to offer solutions.
Regards Mike
Hey Ron
I've got a Delta 36-650c and I'm pleased with it, cast iron wings and all,you can get the same contractor saw with the Beis. and more horsepower, the Delta X5 comes with a free tool or rebate you might want to check it out.
Slim
RON-
Picking such an instrumental piece can be tough. After doing about 6 months of research and penny pinching I went with the Grizzly 1023, the 2hp 110v version. I wouldn't say I settled for this saw because $900 is $900, but if I had an unlimited money supply I would have purchased a better saw. I called the shipping company and had them hold the saw at their loading station in town instead of having them pull up to my house. I borrowed a minivan and we were able to pretty easily get it in and I was on my way. Started putting it together the following day and there weren't any hangups. The wings were flat and it all went together well. Started using it that day and it was definitly an upgrade from the 1 1/2 hp craftsman saw I had used for the past 2 years. cut through 2" maple without hesitating. From the beginning I have been happy with my purchase and know I made the right decision.
Needless to say I just bought Kelly Meher's (?) updated table saw book. A good addition to any woodworking library. After reading the book I realized my saw probably isn't working as well as it could for me. After properly tuning up my saw I am amazed at the percision I can get now. It wasn't bad out of the box but now I have it at the strictest tolerances and it cuts perfectly. I am very happy with my purchase and expect it to be my workhorse for another decade.
I bought my G1023 in 1996. had to drill some holes that were missing in the fence assembly. Also was (is) something whacky with the arbor adjustments - the blade won't lower to the point of going below the table surface. There was no local tech to come and fix it. They were willing to pay for shipping to do the repair work (replace some shaft), but I couldn't afford the time - needed it for work.
It's not a perfect tool, but still a decent value. Just wish they could get a few techs on the road.
"the blade won't lower to the point of going below the table surface." Do you mean the top of the table surface or the bottom of the table surface??
1996 was a long time ago. I get the impression their quality control has improved, even in the last 7 or 8 years.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
ForrestGirl,
I don't spend a lot of time or concern with the bottom surface of my TS top ~ you? lol,
mike.
I doubt she does, but it would help with making zero clearance inserts a little easier. I've seen more then one question about making them, or installing store bought since the blade hits em before cutting them.
Don
Thanks - I'd forgotton what a pain that was!
had to start mine with a smaller dia. blade!
cheers.
I asked that question for a reason. If you were noting that the blade didn't drop below the top surface of the table, that's a problem and not acceptable. If you were noting that it wasn't down below the bottom, that's normal. Hence the zero-clearance insert pains when making them in the shop.
I guess they just want to keep us thinking.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think there are many ISO certified manufacturering facilities in Tawain, and I don't know if there are any in China. I've never heard of any. That is a big difference.
There are a number of people over on Woodnet that have the GI saw and all seem quite happy with it. But I'm sure you will be happy with any brand name saw. Myself, I never though of Rigid as anything but glorified craftsman. Just my opinion.
You might also want to consider the hybreds. Dewalt's or Jets clone of the Dewalt. Not my cup of tea, but I can't remember anyone who bought one of these saws complaining about their decision and there are a lot of appealing options available for both saws.
Don
Ron I have the saw you mentioned and have had no problems with it. I bought the model with the stamped steel wings and if I had my time back I would of bought the cast iron wings instead.
Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Hi Ron,
I bought the Grizzly 1023 left tilt. It's 3 hp and is a monster. I love it. For the money it CANNOT be beat. I've done the trick of balancing a nickel on the top and turning it on. Very little vibration. When I received mine it was missing the latch for the motor cover door. I called and they sent one immediately. Their customer service was excellent. I would not hesitate to buy another Grizzly machine and probably will in the next year. Good luck.
Owning a Grizzly tablesaw is now an ambition worthy of fortification by a quote from Mark Twain?
You've drunk the Kool-Aid - must have been the lime flavour.
Just for curiosity, what other brands of tablesaw have you used? Be honest.
Thanks to all for the advice. I appreiciate everyone's input very much. This forum is like walking into a perfect stranger's shop and interviewing him/her about tools, projects, etc....I love it!
Grizzly 1023 looks like the way to go. While I think I can guess what BossCrunk will say, what do the rest of you think about an old Walker-Turner Cabinet Style saw?
I have the opportunity to buy one but I'm really concerned about buying a 50 year old machine.
While I am intersted in saving money if I can, my main concern is buying a saw that my grandkids will inherit in solid working order....or sell at my estate sale!!!
Something that I didn't catch anyone else comment on:
Even with a bent arbor, that would cause the blade to wobble and probably induce significant vibration, the saw ought to cut straight. I can't understand how a blade wobbling would cut a curve.
Are you sure that there wasn't something else wrong?
It's not cutting a curve. It's cutting a slant. Even when I put a square to the blade.
I think I'll try to put a square to it while it's spinning....just kidding.
I am still confused. I fail to understand how a bent arbor can result in the slanted cut. Are your cuts consistently the same slant? Do you live in a haunted house?
The only way I can possibly see it happening is if the arbor is effecting the torque from the motor and skewing the cut, and then relax's when the motor is shut off. I've heard of this being a problem with contractors saws that didn't even have a bent arbor. It's also hard to correct since you can very well adust the saw while it's running.
Just a guessthought cause I really don't know either.
Don
You're letting the fact that it's new and shiny and cheap get the better of your judgement.
Maybe a little. But I also want to be able to pick up the phone and get parts if I need them. I don't know much about how to build/rebuild power tools and my concern with buying old is that I'll be spending more time "refurbishing" the machine than I will cutting wood.
Thanks very much for your input.
LOL. You're killing me. Now that was funny! That happens to be my favorite quote. I haven't had koolaid in a while. I did have a few brews last night watching the Sox. I've owned a Delta Contractors saw and used a unisaw about 15 years ago. My Grizzly has performed very well, as I expected....and was a great price. Thanks for the humor.Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.-Mark Twain
Why don't you get a Delta and not worry about it - you know you will be Happy
Ron
Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins
Edited 10/9/2003 8:35:24 PM ET by Ron
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