I am trying to equip a small shop with the tools required to make furniture as a hobby. I know I will stub my toes but aim to keep at it until I get it right.
First obvious stub was to let the words “small shop” and “120volt” drive me to a contractor’s saw when it should probably have been a hybrid. I bought a Bosch 4100DG. Guess I need to know that a hybrid is really the correct way to go and what a good brand would be. Anyone?
Replies
I have a Craftsman, about 10 yrs. old now. It's made a lot of cabs & furniture. The fence is basically junk -- it needs to be adjusted for parallel every 10 minutes or so, but I've gotten so I can smack it with the heel of my hand and get it "good enough", LOL. I did convert it to linkbelt and put better pulleys on it. If I was going to buy a similar saw today, I'd probably look at the Craftsman "Zipcode" saw or upgrade to a Sawstop contractor's saw. http://www.sawstop.com/contractor/contractor_home.php
Look for weight (more is better), decent fence, and smooth operation of the controls and the ability to adjust the blade parallel to the slots as a starter. What you bought is a jobsite saw and not what I'd consider a contractor's saw -- a good saw for its intended use, but perhaps a bit too light for your intended use.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike, I have a Craftsman contractors saw that is about 20 years old and performing well. When I first set it up I went for a 1/3 hp motor and 200 volt. Yes, the fence was basically junk and after about 5 - 10 years I bought a General after market fence, mounted a router table on the right side. I can now use the fence for router work as well as the saw.
Edited 2/25/2009 4:44 pm ET by sinsin
I too am just hobbyist, getting into this hobby with a passion about a 1.5 years ago. I have a Ridgid TS 3650, a big improvement from my craftsman benchtop saw. The Ridgid is rock solid and consistently gets good reviews. I think for its price you can't go wrong. The saw is heavy (about 350 lbs) but the integral mobile base is fantastic. The fence is great and has provided me with good results for a stock fence. Their new granite-top hybrid looks even better. Again, for the price I don't think there is a better saw.
Edited 2/25/2009 2:59 pm ET by atm
I started building furniture with a straightedge and a circular saw. If you have any table saw at all, I think you should be looking at getting more experience, and a band saw as your next purchase, not replacing the TS.
Pete
If the requirement is shop space the cabinet saw takes no more space than the hybrid. If the hybrid is the choice because of the 220 .vs. 110, If you can get 220, go with the cabinet saw. I've had the Grizzly now for a long time and its been a great saw. Cost wise you will pay about the same, but the power is more. Again, if you can swing the 220, do it and go with the Cabinet saw. As to brand preference you will get a lot of poinions its a ford/chevy thing.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I have had a Bosch 4000 for about five years now and find it quite capable. It is actually pretty easy to tune and surprisingly accurate. Invest in a couple of decent thin kerf rip and crosscut blades and make sure it is adjusted properly and try it out for a while. Ibet you will be surprised at what it can do.
I have gradually been investing in more and better tools, just bought a Laguna band saw, but I don't plan to replace the Bosch table saw any time soon.
Chris
dave,
...as in coos bay oregon?
driven through there a few times, very beautiful.
i'm on the same page as bones is. the grizzly g1023 and a 220volt shop have worked well for me. however, before purchasing the machines i have today, i did all of my ww on the cheap. couldn't help myself. also, if i had it to do over again, starting out, that is, i'd focus a great deal of attention on hand methods. seems as though most of us wax towards hand work eventually, might as well start sooner.
welcome to knots.
eef
When I first started, I had no room for a table saw inside. I bought a bench top Makita and would drag it out to my deck when I needed to make cuts. I bought the Rouseau stand, mostly because it drastically upgraded the fence. You might consider that.
http://www.rousseauco.com/bTS2775.jpg
You can also build your own stand from wood. I know there are magazine articles on how to beuild caddilac stands the roll and dust collect outfeed, etc.
At $700 you were most of the way to better saws, if you have the room. Even contractor saws like Powermatic's 64A and like saws from General and such come with much better trunnions and fences. As for hybrids, you are talking twice the cost.
Edited 2/25/2009 2:43 pm ET by Samson
If I may make a suggestion, find a copy of The Woodworkers Bible by Alf Martensson and read it before spending money.
On reading that book I bought the Elu biscuit jointer and groover. I use it a lot, for grooving, cutting dadoes, rabbets, mortice deliniation on large work and rarely, biscuiting.
The point is that fixed machines are good but the work can be unwieldy, and I have many heavy machines which, these days, I just cannot manoeuvre to allow me to work. My wife did help, but too many near misses when I delegated the real risky stuff to her have left her with the shakes. The doctor says it is the booze, but she never spilled a drop in the old days and she had all her digits then!
Edited 2/25/2009 2:48 pm ET by mufti
I really don't know anything about that Bosch. But, I went through the same thing as you when I started with a less than adequate contractor saw. I think you will generally get good advice on a thread like this, but remember that every woodworker has their own perception of what accuracy they are trying to attain, and how they want their tool to perform.
That being said, the guy who is using a PM66 doesn't want to take a step back to a contractor saw, and a guy using a Felder doesn't want to go back to a PM66. There's a reason for that. You just have to decide, but if your gut is telling you this thing isn't accurate enough for you, then you have probably already made up your mind. So, when you are ready to sell your saw and chip in the extra cash for the next level, I can tell you my advice. You would need to spend between 1000 to 1400 for a (new) cabinet/hybrid style saw to get a noticeable difference. The hybrid saws (most characterized by the more beefy straight leg open bottom design) are a good improvement at about $1000. But a lower end cabinet saw (runs on 120v, and trunion connected to cabinet instead of connected to table) can be had for about 1200 to 1400. (Steel City, Woodtek, Grizzly) A saw like this could very well be the last saw you ever buy... or not. You could turn out to be a german sliding saw type of guy.
Dear Dave,
I used a Makita 10" saw in a Rousseau table for years and it can be quite accurate and robust. I still use it on jobsites, along with the outfeed tables and although it does not have the raw power of my Powermatic, for processing most materials it is almost as accurate. Any deviations tend to be when ripping, say 8/4 hard maple and such, but for plywoods and materials up to 5/4, there is almost no difference. I am not sure that Rousseau makes a table for your saw, although they do make one for the Bosch 4000.
http://www.rousseauco.com/
Best,
John
PS. Hybrids tend to give you the worst of two worlds, such as an underpowered, larger saw.
What a loaded question. I use a Big-Box Ridgid that will do anything I want or need. The only thing I do not like is that motor hanging off the back and gets in the way!
OK so I would like a saw with a riving knife and a motor inside the cabinet! As far as cutting.. It will do as is! No I hardly ever cut 4 inch thick maple. Maybe a common thing I do is 2 inch thick Jatoba or Hickory that my be like that?
And your words.. First obvious stub was to let the words "small shop" and "120volt" drive me to a contractor's saw..
I also had a Ryobi 3000? long time ago. Little slider thing. It WAS A WONDERFUL saw!
OK so shoot me!
I guess there is ALWAYS something better. No matter what you spend at the time.. Can you live and work with less?
Edited 2/27/2009 4:19 am by WillGeorge
Edited 2/27/2009 4:22 am by WillGeorge
coos,
I picked up on with the tools required to make furniture as a hobby and thought I'd offer some perspectives for you.
Lot's of folks make really fine furniture with hand tools so for them 120 vs 220 might not be an issue. How much space do you have available for your hobby?
Another BIG consideration is dust collection. If you see yourself using power tools to any extent then dust collection/management, in my opinion, needs to be high on your wish list.
Also your needs will evolve/change over time so I guess I'd have to ask what lead you to believe that you need a hybrid? How much time have you spent using the Bosch? Have you experienced problems with it? Two axioms in woodworking are more than one way to skin a cat and it depends.
Depending on your situation I'd be willing to bet there's a cat skinner out there with a solution for ye.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'm with Bob and Pete on this one. Use what you have, it can do a lot! We all worked with a lot less for a long time, and turned out some great stuff. By then it will be obvious to you what you need.Woody
I think your saw is perfectly adequate for your needs starting out. It is a staple of many trim carps and pros who saw every day. If you are finding jobs that tax the limits of your saw or your safety then it is time to consider other options. I have worked in shops of various sizes and various tooling for a long time. What is the particular issue with your saw? As Bob stated they are may different ways to get the results you want without changing your saw. Some problems and alternate solutions:
Cutting Sheet Goods - Build large work support table or get circular saw guide systemUnderpowered for thick lumber(8/4) - Consider a bandsaw or quality jigsawDados and rabbets - A router and guide does a fine job for most of this workTennons - Again, cutting by hand, bandsaw, or routing all makes senseBest of luck!Ty
You are a beginner so you should have gotten an $85 Home Depot special: not the $600 machine you bought, and not the $1200 machine you want.
Farkel, I started out with the $85 special, from Ace, and I must say: I disagree. The small, light-duty (underpowered) benchtop saws leave alot to be desired when it comes to safety, especially for someone who's making furniture, trying to handle large stock or sheet goods. If it's a person with lots of experience, they know how to work safely with a light-duty saw, but a beginner might well learn the hard way.
Then there's the whole problem of not being able to use a decent dado set, probably not being able to fine-tune the fence, etc.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 3/1/2009 10:46 am by forestgirl
Amen to that! I had a lowes < 100 buck special. Did it work, yes. Did I cuss it the whole way and think times of challenging my ability to do woodworking, yes. The day you get to work with a good cabinet saw, its like an AHHHHHHH moment. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
There's not much doubt a cabinet saw is a cut waaayyyyy above, but even a contractor saw or hybrid should be fine. Experience has taught me that a lightweight (literally) and underpowered saw with a pretty flimsy fence is not meant for the type of work it sounds like our OP would be doing.
If he's going to explore hybrids, I'd encourage him to look for a model that has the top mounted the way cabinet saws are, with the trunnions attached to the cabinet. Ease of adjustment and fine-tuning to the fence. Table adjustment and motor shifting at a 45 degree tilt were the big drawbacks to the contractor saw I owned.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG said: "If he's going to explore hybrids, I'd encourage him to look for a model that has the top mounted the way cabinet saws are, with the trunnions attached to the cabinet. Ease of adjustment and fine-tuning to the fence. Table adjustment and motor shifting at a 45 degree tilt were the big drawbacks to the contractor saw I owned."
I agree...hybrids with cabinet mounted trunnions would be the two Orion made (Steel City) Craftsman models (22114/22124), Steel City models, and the new Ridgid R4511....both the Ridgid and the newer Steel City models have riving knives.
Hi f_g,Your abbreviation of farkel's name gave me a chuckle.Cheers,eddie
Edited 3/1/2009 3:20 am by eddiefromAustralia
Hmmmm, I changed it -- don't want to get in trouble with fark.com for one thing. Perhaps, also, I shouldn't presume to be so familiar as to dole out a shortened nickname. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I was actually a little flattered by the familiarity because I am a hobbyist who mostly lurks here, while you are probably my favorite poster.For 27 years my job has been helping businesses and individuals in financial distress, and my point is that financial responsibility is more important than owning state of the art tools, ESPECIALLY FOR A BEGINNING HOBBYIST.Otherwise, you end up with an empty bank account, and a house full of unused expensive stuff like treadmills, and maybe even state of the art woodworking tools, most of which was bought based upon the false argument that you need fancy equipment to enjoy a hobby.
Thanks for the compliment <blush>. I hear ya on the Treadmill syndrome -- saw a guy just the other day, hauling one around in his fancy new truck, LOL.
If you ever saw my old Jet saw, you'd know I'm not dedicated to the best and fanciest tools -- it was given to me by the owner of a frame shop who had not treated it kindly.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
but Farkel what if your hobby is enjoying fancy woodworking tools. I for one when I am too old to woodwork will hobble out into the shop and sit and remember the day when....
Nae dramas,Now, reading between the lines, do you prefer f_g, FG, forestgirl or your real name?CHeers,eddie
Ah, Eddie! I'm flexible, but have grown fond of FG. Real name is fine too. fg (lower case) doesn't fit -- kinda like pastels and tiny-print dresses with cute short sleeves on my 5'7" frame.
There wasn't anything hidden between the lines, though..... forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thank you all, especially Forest Girl. All showed interest in an ignorant new-comer and provided me with much to think about. I thank you all - except, of course the self promoting farkel. He sits there in his own ignorance of my financial means and dedication to learning. He seems to want pinching pennies (which he claims to understand)to be more important than safety, or shortening the learning curve. He needs to lurk somewhere else where he can talk down to people who are paying for the pompus lurker to put them down in a an unhelpful manner. Such imputs tend to drive truely nice newbies off the site.
Coosbaydave: I am sorry for blurting out my gut reaction without reflecting on how offensive it sounded. Please accept my apology.
Apology accepted but its motive is questionable. I am saddened that farkel's stated gut reaction is to haze and put down the newbie. I spent most of the day angry about farkel's "help". Do not expect an inexpensive apology to make up for it. Saying Farkel is sorry doesn't motivate me to run out and buy an $85 table saw, nor run from a Sawstop. Farkel's two inputs to me and the ingratiating one to FG take time and space in this forum and leave the reader without enlightenment or good cheer. Apology aside, Farkel needs to practice being helpful; tactful too. From the Newbie: Farkle must set his bar higher and be helpful or keep a sock in it.
Coos, I know sometimes a quick, glib or abrupt non-helpful response can sometimes just sit there "under the saddle blanket" as it were, and aggravate the heck out of you. That being said, I'd encourage you to give Farkel a little slack here. He's a much better man than some who get gleeful self-entertainment from posting in such a way deliberately. He's apologized, sincerely near as I can tell, and has most likely learned somthing about the ways of an internet forum -- pitfalls and all.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie, well stated!Woody
I just read this entire thread and had to chuckle at the range of opinions. Most of us give advice based on our own experience, and here's two more cents from a perpetual newbie:No way I could afford a hybrid when I started out. I had no idea what I was going to end up doing with woodworking—or even whether it was going to stick—so spending $1,000 on anything related to it would have put me in divorce court. Besides, I wanted to try a lot of different things to see what I liked doing most. So, yes, I too started with one of those $85 big-box specials, got things as close as it would let me, and then got things precise with a couple handplanes picked up cheap on eBay. I learned what the saw could do and couldn't do, and used hand tools to compensate. The worst part about working with that saw was the dust, which you need to address sooner rather than later. It can make you very sick.One day, when the saw died while I was in the middle of cutting some boards, I got in my car, drove to the nearest Woodcraft, bought a General International hybrid they had on sale, loaded it in the back of the Outback, set it up back home, and resumed sawing. How's that for analysis?A word of caution: most of what I know about woodworking I've learned from magazines, books, and the internet. This is a great thing, but one pitfall is that you can overanalyze everything when you're just starting out. Spend as much time as you can making dust; it will teach you more about what that Bosch can and can't do and about what equipment YOU may or may not need than any one of us can.Norman
Farkel,
I disagree with the concept that you should buy tools priced low if your experience is limited. I believe you should choose tools in proportion to your commitment to woodworking. If you are a beginner and only desire to build one or two projects, I could agree with you. But the cheaply designed/built tools often make it difficult to maintain quality due to poor calibration and alignment. If he is committed to learning to become a craftsman, I recommend buying as much tool as your budget can afford.
Don't overlook good used equipment or equipment that can be refurbished/rebuilt.Greg
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Just remember the table saw isn't the only tool in the shop. I'd rather have the Bosch and a good jointer, planer or bandsaw than only a high-end cabinet saw. Incidently, I do own the Bosch 4000 (and a good jointer, planer and bandsaw) and replacing it is not my first priority, though it is first on the list behind a larger shop. Mines 350 sf. I cut up the high-profile riving knife to make a sleek low-profile one, and the dust collection is pretty good.
Brian
Just remember the table saw isn't the only tool in the shop.********The table saw is the main tool in the shop is my way of thinking. I had a Sears $149 special and was sorry I did so I went out and got a Jet 10" contractors saw and haven't look back since. That was 8 years ago and I am seriously looking to get the new Delta Unisaw but I have getting (a lot ) of resistance from the Mrs. LOL. I mentioned it a week ago and have been on the couch ever since.
Hi Dave,
I considered buying the Bosch 4100DG, but instead went for two of these, a rip and a cross cut, both 26" because I don't really have anywhere to put a table saw. Approx. $200
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=BIGP&description=Pax+Hand+Saws&fullimagepath=/prodimg/pz/big/PZ-HS303XX_big.gif
I find that they work for me, with what I do, and minimal setup time. If you're just starting out, like me, you should be able to do plenty more with lots less effort with your Bosch.
Go make stuff and worry less about your tools!
Best regards,
Paul
I moved up to the Grizzly 0576 a few years ago. It came with the Shop Fox fence which works exceptionally well. Upgraded the miter gauge. Added the table extension with the router hole. I had to drill and counter sink holes for the screws to hold the router to the table. The brackets that come with the extension suck. It comes pre-wired for 220. So I looked up on how to add a 220 line to the saw and did it. The motor has never bogged down. Vibration is minimal.
The arbor has no measurable runout. The bolts on the table extensions are a bit touchy to get the table flat at the seam. I ended up using pieces of paper for shims between the table ends for a completely flat table.
Getting the blade parallel to the miter slot is tricky with the trunion bolts supplied so I removed them and added studs with locktite with nuts and washers. That did the trick.
My next saw will probably be a larger Grizzly.
Hi Dave, I have been setting up my first woodworking shop, after having worked in the garage, basement, dining room, driveway or deck for the past 30 + years. I purchased a small Sears 10" table saw with a optional stand 25 years ago... So just about any saw would be an improvement in terms of accuracy. However I got a lot of experience and use out of it.
For my new shop I purchased a heavy Delta Hybred from Amazon and once I got it down to the basement and began to unpack it I discovered damage to the baseof the saw where it attaches to the stand. This gave me an oportunity to rethink my plans. I realized I would be getting a band saw, and began to question my need for the large stationary table saw. I plan to cut sheet goods up in the garage with saw horses and a skilll saw, so I won't need the tablesaw and infeed/outfeed tables. (Lots of space being used up here) I went with the Bosch cantractors' saw because of the positive reviews,it's accuracy/quality, and mobile base. So far I have been very happy with the results. I ended up purchasing one of the new Jet 18" band saws, but I have just set it up and have not started using it. For me I decided to shift from the Tablesaw as being the major purchase to the band saw. I think this will be a good balance for me. Good luck
Thank you for the nice input. As other posters said, once I got some use of the Bosch, I got very nice cuts. The most important input was to "make sawdust". I did. It just took practice. Like you, I will do initial and other large panel cuts on a fold-up picnic table leg jig with a straight-line clamp and skill saw.
Hi Dave, I,m glad that you have been getting used to the Bosch and have been having some good results.I forgot to mention in my first message that i have a Dewalt Miter saw and stand as well as a freud router table, fence and router, which I believe will provide the versitility of cuts that one can do on a big table saw. I am working on building two workbenchs for my shop and have gotten to the point where I need to begin the mortise and tennon joints. So I have begun to lap and sharpen my new chisels and plane blades. This is another whole discussion. I enjoy the learning and being able to have the patience and the self forgiveness to accept my mistakes and in this case end up with an understanding of how to create a blade. Thanks for your reply, Dave
This has been a very interesting and confusing discussion for me, as I'm a total beginner trying to tool up for my first prodjects, and looking at buying my first stationary shop tools. As a beginner with other finantial responsabilities, and no idea yet what the extent of my interest in the hobby will eventually be, budgeting $5000+ for a cabinet saw, bandsaw, drill press, and who knows what all else seems almost intimidating enough to give me second thoughts about the hobby altogether. With no experience to fall back on, it's hard to know what I should and shouldn't scrimp on. When to make due, and when to go for the best I can afford. The advice here, seems to be all over the place. I'm so confused!
As a beginner with other finantial responsabilities..
I DID THAT,,, My Wife and her Babies came first..!
it's hard to know what I should and shouldn't scrimp on.
Cash flow and what you like IF THE WIFE Approves
Lots of good tools are being sold today ,I imagine because of the economy more than just upgrading to a better machine. In your situation, I would check your local want ads . I have seen decent contractor saws go for $100.00 when they sold for $500.00 new. Same with 6" jointers and drill presses. Do not buy sight unseen, thru ebay or anyother online site. Is there someone,family or friend that knows machinery that can assist you ?
If you fill in your profile, then someone near you may be willing to help.
mike
I think I bought the wrong table saw
I bought the original Ridgid (Yes a big box) I think it is a wonderful saw for the price.. AND THEN SOME..
NO .. Was just a owner and not a sales rep!
Edited 10/9/2009 5:35 am by WillGeorge
I thihk I bought the wrong table saw.
My advise buy the best saw you can get your hands on the first time. Plenty of guys buy their first saw (tool) and decide tyo upgrade.
Me I bought 3 table saws, first one a contractor grizzly, next a mid level Jet cabinet saw, finally a Powermatic PM2000.
Made the same mistake with my jointer and may not be done yet.
I sold the equipment to upgrade but I wish I would have made my last choice my first.
I sold the equipment to upgrade but I wish I would have made my last choice my first.
And I bet you had limited funds!
Yes to some extent, I wish I would have skipped the middle saw the Jet and went right to the Powermatic.
I didn't make the mistake on my shop though, I'm just putting the finishing touches on a 35 foot by 28 foot beauty. Moving from the basement to a 980 square foot building in the back yard. Radient heat in the floor, five foot high windows on the east and south sides with 12.5 foot ceiling.
Dave... STOP reading so much and START using the saw. I use a Rigid contractors saw for building lots of cabinets. Your only problem will be cutting to the center (2 foot) of a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood. USE the saw, get experience with it and I'll bet after a while you will not want to give it up, unless you're doing projects that require 4 inch thick oak. An old (metal) ironing board without a cover makes a great out-feed table when you're taking long cuts. The two suggestions I would make are... 1 - invest in a GOOD rip and a BETTER crosscut blade. The combo blade that comes with the saw is nice, but not great and 2 - make a zero clearance throat-plate for the saw. Both of these items will help give you a nice clean cut.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
Might help if you explain why you think you made a mistake. Too little power? Tool lust? Accuracy?
You might be getting useful advice if more was known.
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