Hello!
As part of our bathroom remodel, I have been converting an old (40’s?) maple desk into a vanity. I stripped and sanded it, enclosed the center “sitting” area with a shelf and doors. We decided we wanted a black stain, with a durable polyurethane finish. Since pigment stains (Minwax Ebony) didn’t produce the desired depth of color in the hard maple, I decided to go with a black dye stain. I found a paint store in the area that would sell me a pint (poured off a gallon), so once home I proceeded to brush it (straight) onto the vanity. I have to say, the paint store gave very little instruction on the use of dye stain, and in retrospect, I probably should have come here first. The stain dried almost immediately, but rubbed off real easily (like I’d stained the vanity using charcoal drawing pencils!). I sanded the vanity smooth, giving the surface the “rubbed-through” effect I was looking for. Next, I proceeded to use an out-of-the-can satin spray poly (Minwax), 3 or so coats. My thinking was, that brushing might disturb the “rubbed-through” effect. Generally, the finish layed out nicely. Today it’s been 3 days, and I was going to lightly sand the finish, and possibly add another coat or two.
Looking at one of the drawer faces, I noticed the stain was a little thick under the poly. I scratched at it with my fingernail, going through the poly, releasing a nice load of dry stain on my finger. Now I’m thinking of the disaster waiting to happen if (after I have finished installing the vanity) someone nicks the surface, or just from wear and tear, the finish wears through, and a guest gets this nice black stain on their white dress, or we get it on the travertine tile.
I guess my question is, should I strip the vanity and use a solid body paint, or are there any other ways to save this disaster?
Thanks,
Gregg
Replies
Well, it seems to me that the real issue is the stain. Any finish or paint is going to wear thru eventually. The fact that you could scratch the poly off easily is a different issue. I wouldn't worry about that since it sounds to me like the poly simply isn't cured out yet. Spray can finishes have a lot more solvents in them than sprayed or brushed finishes. Letting each coat of any finish flash or dry properly will speed up the total finish because trapped solvents take longer to gas off. My guess is that another week and those first three coats of sprayed on poly will be much harder to scratch off - ie. much more durable.
So, the real question is the stain and whether you can live with it when the finish does ultimately wear thru on corners and such from being used. It's hard to say without being able to look at it, but it sounds like it's just one drawer face that you're concerned about. Sanding the stain down to get that worn thru look probably has left a thin enough stain layer that any exposed stain from a wear thru wouldn't be as big a deal. No?
You might try just stripping that one drawer face and refinishing it. Give the entire thing another week to cure out and then sand and put on more coats as desired. Just keep in mind what I said about the total cure time.
For future reference, I wouldn't use the Minwax Ebony as an indicator of all pigmented stains. It's actually a mixture of pigments and oil-soluable dye. I've worked with it on both Maple and Oak and know that it doesn't impart very much color. I've had good success with M.L. Campbell's WoodsongII pigmented wiping stain (black). It imparts a great deal more color than the Minwax does. Sherwin Williams water-based wiping stain concentrate (black, pigmented) also imparts a great deal more color than even the M.L.Campbell one does. In fact, Minwax's "ebony" stain is the single most disappointing ebonizing stain that I've ever worked with. It simply didn't live up to the advertised color. I'm not at all surprised that you weren't satisfied with it.
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.
Kevin,
I guess my fear is that the dye hasn't penetrated and bonded with the wood, effectively preventing the polyurethane from doing so either. I am thinking I probably should have mixed the dye in some thinned brushable poly.
A little while ago, I used a methylene chloride stripper to remove the finish from a shelf (for the same bathroom). Needless to say, the finish (being only three days old) came off easily, mixed with the black stain. A fair amount of the stain came off the wood, but I can still get some color rubbing a paper towel on the surface.
GreggF wrote: ".... I used a methylene chloride stripper to remove the finish ...."
Gregg, I would suggest that you look into using "Citristrip" or some other "safe" stripping compound. These new strippers are not only safer that methylene chloride based strippers, but are more effctive, as well. They can be left on the surface longer without evaporating and losing effectiveness. Citristrip has even shown itself effective on epoxy based coatings.
There was an article on this in FWW in the last few years, but I can't recall the issue. If I can think of it, I post again.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
After using the methylene chloride stripper did you THOROUGHLY clean off the residue? Strippers usually contain wax to prevent too-fast evaporation of the meth and if not removed will interfere with subsequent finishing steps. I would strip everything to bare wood, use naptha to clean the bare wood and then apply the finish.
Did they sell you tinting color rather than dye? Dye does not leave much, if anything, on the surface. If you got tinting color, it does not penetrate, has no binder and no adhesive qualities. It will come off.
Bob,
Since they poured it off a gallon into a quart can, I can't tell. I'll call the paint store tomorrow to clarify. I can tell you that after application, it had a purpleish hue, and had the quality of a film of graphite, almost. Shiny in the thicker locations, too.
Gregg,
Whatever you got from SW, it doesn't sound like dye. SW sells a universal dye concentrate that can be reduced in alcohol, lacquer thinner, or water. A little dye goes a long way. Even undiluted, it won't sit on the surface of the wood like pigments will.
I'd strip the piece and start over. If you get dyes from SW, make sure the can says Sher-Wood Universal Dye Concentrate.
On a side note, these dyes are not directly compatible with oil-base varnish/poly.
Paul
Paul,
The dye wasn't purchased at Sherwin-Williams, but at another local paint store. I'll go by or call today to get more info on the product I used.
When you say the SW dyes are not directly compatible with oil based varnish/poly, does that mean I cannot add the dye to the poly, but can use poly over dry dye?
Am I correct in assuming oil based polyurethane would be the most appropriate finish for a bathroom vanity? If I end up stripping this piece, I can go with another stain/finish combo (as long as it doesn't require a professional paint booth, etc.). For instance, would it be possible to add the dye to a laquer, then top coat with poly? Seems I remember hearing this was possible (as opposed to laquer OVER poly). Maybe the laquer would bind, or lock-in the dye (guessing here, I am NOT a chemist, obviously...)?
I'm pretty sure residual wax from the stripper did not play a significant role in the dye problem, as I had the same result with some shelves made from unfinished hardwood plywood.
Would a photo be helpful?
Gregg
Gregg,
This kind of dye doesn't mix directly into oil-base finishes to make a colored finish (toner); though you can reduce the dye in acetone and mix a little in the poly/varnish (1 part dye, 4-5 parts acetone; up to 2 ounces per quart of poly/varnish). But you can apply any finish you want over the dye once it dries. If you're padding, wiping, or brushing the finish, there's a good chance you'll pull some of the dye into the finish but it shouldn't be a big problem.
Varnishes, including polyurethane, are a good choice for a bathroom vanity. I'm not too crazy about the Minwax brand, but that's my personal opinion. I'd be a lot more likely to use Waterlox (available at True Value or Ace hardware), General Finishes' Arm-R-Seal (http://www.generalfinishes.com/finishes/oil-base-finishes/sealacell%20oil.htm), Old Masters Super Varnish, or Pratt & Lambert #38 (available at their paint stores). There are other top-notch varnishes available as well (e.g., Behlen "RockHard").
A good approach on the vanity (once it's stripped) is to dye the wood, spray a seal coat of shellac, then topcoat with the varnish (wipe, brush, or spray). If you use a poly, make sure the shellac is dewaxed (Zinsser spray can shellac is dewaxed as well as their "Seal Coat" or you can mix your own from flakes). Spraying (instead of padding or brushing) the shellac avoids lifting any color and increases the vapor barrier properties of the finish. Topcoating with varnish give you the durability, including protection from water.
I have a pretty good idea of the problem you have; you gave a good description and I don't think a picture will add much in this case. I had a similar problem one time when I was trying to get too much color from a glaze; the finish didn't adhere and I could scratch it off with my fingernail. That's a sure sign of a bad finish.Paul
Paul and all,
Thanks so much for the interest in helping. I went to the paint store today, and as it turned out, the stain was WoodsongII Dye Stain Concentrate. I think the problem was that I applied it straight, outside in the sunshine, and it dried so fast that I was not able to spread it thin enough. In some cases, the dye was actually shiny. Of course, I fairly agressively sanded it, but it's my opinion (and the paint store owner's opinion as well) that the polyurethane has not "bitten" the wood, but is probably floating like a shell over the stain. At this stage, stripping seems inevitable (if only to relieve my mind). Once stripped (and neutralized), my options are to restain with an acetone-diluted dye stain, or to use a solid body alkyd enamel (thinned a bit), which when dry would get the "sanded-through" treatment, then a satin poly topcoat (are the ones you recommended available in the spray can?). While at the paint store, I did pick up a pint of Benjamin Moore Impervo alkyd High Gloss Metal & Wood Enamel, just in case...
Once stripped (and neutralized), my options are to restain with an acetone-diluted dye stain,
WoodsongII dye stain is acetone based.
or to use a solid body alkyd enamel (thinned a bit), which when dry would get the "sanded-through" treatment, then a satin poly topcoat (are the ones you recommended available in the spray can?).
That's actually a pretty good idea. I think you'd be happy with the look and the adhesion.
The Independent Voter.com
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.
Gregg,
The dye you got is a good dye; but too concentrated to use without reducing. You can reduce it in lacquer thinner or acteone as Kevin pointed out. I use these dyes a fair amount and usually mix 1 1/2 ounces of dye with a quart of lacquer thinner. That'll give you a pretty strong color, though you can thin it less if you want/need it darker.
Whether to use dye or paint just depends on the look you want. Dye will allow the wood grain to show no matter how dark while paint will hide the grain everywhere except the places you sand through. If you use the paint, make sure the clear coat is compatible. In spray can finishes, the oil-base poly is probably the best choice for durability; I'm not sure what's available in a waterborne finish but resistance to water would be my first concern. There are some very good waterborne finishes, I'm just not sure they come in a spray can.
When stripping, I like to use a semi-paste stripper. You can slop on a thick coat (picture on left) with a $2 natural bristle brush and let it sit until the finish softens (it should crinkle). Don't brush it out too much or the solvents will evaporate. Liquid strippers evaporate too fast for my liking and cross-linking finishes like varnish take some time to soften. Once the finish softens/crinkles, scrape it off the flat surfaces (a plastic scraper is less likely to scratch the wood; if you use metal, round the corners). Use scothbrite or a stiff brush to remove the finish from the recessed areas.
View Image
Thick coat of stripper
View Image
Remove softened finish
After getting all the finish off I can, I use lacquer thinner to clean the piece. Lacquer thinner will help remove the last traces of the finish as well as the wax from the stripper. Use scothbrite if there's a lot of residue or rags if there's not too much. Finish up with rags and lacquer thinner (Scott box of rags works well). Swap out the rags until all the residue is gone. Let the piece dry overnight and then sand lightly to remove any raised grain.
Once stripped, the wood will be very dark, if not black. You can re-dye if you need to even out the color or just paint over it if you use the paint. The varnishes I listed aren't available in spray cans, but can be wiped if you thin with mineral spirits until you get the right consistency.
BTW - it's a nice looking piece. It's going to be very nice when you get done.
Paul
Paul mentioned this point in his post (#10 in this thread), but I think it is worth emphasizing:
SEAL COAT (Zinsser) IS THE ONE OF THE BEST THINGS SINCE SLICED BREAD.
Since always professional finishers have known about the virtues of dewaxed shellac as a seal (or barrier) coat between finishing products that weren't compatible. It is particularly useful to lay down a coat of dewaxed shellac over any stain you use, and then proceed to coat with whatever finish you have chosen.
Before the introduction of Seal Coat a couple of years ago, one was compelled to do your own dewaxing -- which itself is a simple, but rather mysterious, uncertain process.
Aside from sealing a stain, the best use of Seal Coat is as a sealer for anything where you plan to use a water based polyurethane. It does not raise the grain, and will give you a perfectly smooth finish. Before I started using this stuff, I would wet down the piece, let it dry, and sand off the raised whiskers. Even so, the finished surface was rougher than you would get with a oil-based finish.
Seal Coat can be found in any paint store, and it seems now to be finding its way into a few home centers.
Paul is correct too about the shellac in spray cans. It is dewaxed, and can be used in the same way as Seal Coat. But for reasons only known to Zinsser, nowhere on the spray can do they tell you the product has been dewaxed.
Here's a shot of the vanity as it is now.
My current plan is to strip it, and neutralize (and de-wax?) the stripper. Next, paint everything with the BM enamel. When that's dry, do the "sand-though." I think It may be best to let it dry a bit more at this stage, as I've exposed less-cured paint with the sanding. Next, a coat of spray shellac, then lastly, the topcoat of a spray polyurethane. Do I dare open the oil-based-vs.-water-based-poly can of worms? I've never used a water-based poly, but would try it if there were a good reason to...
One other question: Is there any reason to use the shellac after stripping/before enamel (sealing residual stain in the nooks 'n' crannies)? Might be cheap insurance?
Are you sure you want to paint this beautiful piece?
Either way, I would suggest you remove the present finish with liquid stripper (as opposed to the semi-past variety). Get a common spray bottle rated for garden chemicals, and use it to apply the stripper, wiping the surface with paper towels as you go to remove the finish. 2 or 3 rounds should do the job.
Dealing with the wax in stripper:
There is much less wax in a liquid stripper (wax is what gives semi-paste stripper its "paste-like" quality). Whichever you use, I would scrub the piece with paint or lacquer thinner, and then give everything a careful sanding with 120 grit.
Ordinarily, you are then good to go with paint. But in your case, I would do exactly what you are suggesting, and spray the piece before painting with dewaxed shellac. You have a lot of crevices to be concerned about. It takes only a few minutes and will insure good adhesion of he paint.
Use whatever primer Ben Moore recommends on the can (some of their paints are "self priming"), and proceed with your top coats.
I'm not sure if I understand your "sand through" step, but if you want to finish with a polyurethane, you can safely skip the shellac Seal Coat. Either oil-based or water-based poly will adhere to a painted surface that has been sanded, assuming the paint is alkyd.
For extra durability on a piece I've painted, I always brush on a coat of water-based poly after sanding lightly with 220 grit. It would be best to let the paint cure for at least 2-3 days (a week is better) before you sand and apply the poly.
Good luck. This piece will make a wonderful vanity.
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