Replies

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Sep 07, 2003 07:12pm | #1

   Richard

      I like Kirby's bench. It's simple and gets the job done. I am also building a work-bench at the moment ( the fifth even though I have built quite a few for others ). I took an idea from Kirby, Klaus, Mattson, Hammacher-Schlemmer, Ulmia, Chappelle, etc. and in-corporated them into exactly what I need in both features and size.

     (1) Kirby chose to leave the bottom rails not wedged or pinned because he has around 60 square inches of glued tenon in the connection (look at the blue-prints in the back of the book and do the math). That should be more than suffieient for his design. If you want to pin or wedge it, your choice.

   (2) Gauge an mark your mortice hole. Drill out the centers and do the sides with a mortice chisel. That wet wood is going to be a problem. Doug Fir is stringy anyway, the moisture is not going to help matters. I would have chose to let the wood cure and dry before I started. Since you have already started, I would build the base and let it sit till it drys somewhat b-4 locking the top down. It's going to move. You have no choice now but to let it and then square the settled results. If the wood is extremely wet, cut the mortices tight. They will contract even more when the wood drys. Cut the tenons long. You can size the exposed end grain later with a block plane. I hope you have not used wet wood on the top.

      Mortise chisels are called mortice chisels for a reason. They are thicker through the iron for the entire lenght an carry a different angle on the tip than paring chisels. They have strong handles meant to be hit an usually have a shock absorber between the handle an iron entry. They are longer for better leverage when scooping out waste.

      If you do not have one, I would not buy a very large timber-framing mortice chisel just for this job. I would get a 1" mortice chisel and compromise for that particular Kirby design. You will not likely need a 1 1/2" or larger timber-framing chisel latter. The 1" might come in handy down the road, though. 

      Good luck with the bench and I'm sure some far wiser than I will add some good info. A suggestion I recommend is to buy lumber in advance and let it dry properly. That will eliminate many problems you will have in the future with movement. Not all, but many. Wood will always move with changes in moisture content. Getting it close to where you want it before you start and seal just makes more sense.

   Regards...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   rckendall | Sep 08, 2003 02:05am | #2

   SARGE,

   Thanks for the reply. I've already thought about buying wood for the next bench so that it will be dry when the time comes.

   I used a small commercial top made from hard maple so no problems there. My point with the particular joint is, it has the least area for glue, if I'm reading the plans right, and no mechanical aid.

   I'm hoping to get further input on this type of constuction (timber framing ???). I'd like to do better on my next bench.

   Richard

1. 
   ChasStanford | Sep 08, 2003 03:24am | #4

   The thickness of a mortise chisel, as contrasted with a standard beveled-edge bench chisel, helps the chisel take care of the walls of a mortise as the joint is chopped. 

   If you're using the tool correctly, the walls of your mortise(s) will be smooth enough for no additional touchup.

   The thickness of the chisel also helps to keep the mortise itself from being cut off the vertical.  Pay close attention to the tool as you work and you'll see what I mean.

   Learning to use this tool, which amounts to understanding why it's designed the way it is, and allowing it to work as designed will open another world for you in terms of freedom from corded tools and the flexibility arising from 'cutting the cord.'

   I used to really tussle with my chisels until one day I went in the shop in a half-assed lazy mood and cut some mortises.  The process went really well, and it opened my eyes.  My lazy mood had allowed me to let the tool do what it's supposed to do, instead of fighting it. 

2. 
   RANGERP75R | Sep 08, 2003 04:54pm | #5

   Richard

      When you say that it has the least amount of glue area, you tipped me off to the fact you were not talking about the long stretcher that has the additional 3" block glued to the ends. That mortice has approximately 60" of glue in one leg, which is the most glue area anywhere on the table.

      You obviously mean the short stretcher that runs from front to rear of the bench. It only has about 30" of glue area. I looked at the blue-print again an see it was not pinned. The long stretcher is double wedged. Will revise what I said in this way.

      The joint should be sufficient, but I notice I put a tremendous amount of vertical force from front to rear of a bench when I hand plane. If I did this on Kirby's bench and got the slightest amount of movement, I would pin it. As a matter of fact, I would pin it anyway as I tend to build as if I lived on a fault-line. ha..ha..

      Keep in mind you do not have to follow a blue-print exactly. I just sit down with a cup of coffee and design my own. I have looked at everyone elses bench and in-corporated some of their ideas in what I want. If you see room on Kirby's design for improvement, then so be it. Improve it to meet your own personal criteria. The pins or a wedge will make that particular joint sturdier. As it is a work-bench, the exposed pins or wedges do not play a factor in asthetics. A work-bench is designed to "get the job done". What comes from it's surface should be where the asthetics are considered. IMO

      I will post a picture of mine will I get it finished. It is made from almost all scrap. I did buy some vise hard-ware and about 60 bd. ft. of maple as I came up short of donations in that area.

      Yep, joints are important in the "big picture". I took a week off years ago an watched Japanese carpenters build a "steak-house" here in Atlanta. I learned just how important joints are in the over-all structure of things. Those guys can cut some nice sturdy joints you don't see every-day here. They make the joints to last a while and they don't use glue.  ha..ha..

   Regards...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   rckendall | Sep 09, 2003 03:07am | #6

   Sarge,

   Thanks again for the reply. I did do some things my own way, including epoxy glue. I come from a background of high tech boat building and epoxy is a natural for me.

   BUT, I don't know how the old craftsmen did things. I do want to learn. A couple years ago I was visiting my son and family near Columbus Ohio and they took me to a resurrected barn that was used in a basket business. It was huge, and I remember seeing some large beams jointed with mortise and tenons that were pinned. I was impressed to say the least. It is Amish country and they built it originally and were also called on to rebuild it (I think maybe they moved it).

   I've not yet had a good bench to plane with, so all this will be new for me.

   Thanks again,

   Richard

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Sep 09, 2003 09:20am | #7

   Richard

      Yep, the older framers had some definite knowlege that got passed from generation to generation. There is an old Methodist camp-ground in my home-town that was built right after the Civil War. All was done with timbers and pinned joints. Still "rock-steady" and probably will be for years. Most of the barns in my area have given way to congestion we call "progress". ha..ha..

      The most amazing thing I have seen is the Japanese carpenters and the truly unique joints they cut. Some are nothing short of fabulous and very intricate. These guys would make about 12 to 15 pull strokes and re-sharpen their saws. Only took a few seconds to re-hone an they were back to cutting. The Ichaban Steak-House here in Atlanta was done entirely by them as they were brought from Japan.

      BTW, if you're just getting started, learn to sharpen. You will amazed at the higher level of work and reduction in effort you will attain when you do.

   Have a good evening...

   sarge..jt

2. 
   rckendall | Sep 09, 2003 03:51pm | #8

   Sarge,

   I agree with the importance of sharpening. Before I bought my first L-N plane I bought their video on sharpening, and found that it was not too different than what my dad taught me when I was a kid. All I needed to do was DO IT (and practice). So now at least my planes and chisels are in good shape. I wish I could say the same for drill bits.

   Cheers,

   Richard

3. 
   Mackwood | Sep 10, 2003 06:39am | #9

   Richard,

   You spoke of drill bits needing to be sharpened.  I used to have hundreds of dull drill bits around my shop.  I bought a "Drill Doctor"; got the medium one, think it's the "500".  I was so impressed that I called the company and ordered the bigger chuck (up to 3/4") and about two life-time supplys of the diamond wheels.  The thing really works well!!  Does cobalt, carbide as well as HSS.  Easy to use and it's not a problem if you only use it once in a while.  I consider it one of my best tool investments!

   2 cents worth (maybe 3)

   Regards,

   Mac

4. 
   rckendall | Sep 10, 2003 03:42pm | #10

   Mack,

   Thanks for the tip. I've seen them advertised but not really looked into them. Speaking of cobalt, I've always seen a different point on them than standard twist drills. So now I wonder if this machine will do different points, like brad point?

   Thanks again,

   Richard

5. 
   UncleDunc | Sep 12, 2003 10:55am | #11

   It will do standard 118 degree points and 135 degree split points, but AFAIK will not do brad points or anything else unusual, like the step on step drills.

2. 
   MitchRoberson | Feb 20, 2004 12:02am | #12

   Sarge,

   I'm working on my own version of a bench that will be similar to Kirby's bench.  Regarding the those short stretchers (from the front legs to the back legs), I thought of doing the following:  On the bottom stretcher, I'm going to make instead a trestle with the legs wedged into it.  On the top stretcher, instead of the bridle joint, I was thinking of making a large through dovetail to provide some mechanical resistance.  Do you think that would be better or worse (or the same) as a bridle joint with pins?  I guess I could even pin the dovetails if that would help...

   Secondly, I'm having a hard time finding Douglas Fir.  I live in NYC.  I haven't finished looking, but I keep hearing that Douglas Fir isn't available, unless you get the virgin growth stuff that would be very expensive.  Is DF more readily available in the West ?

   Does anyone know of a source of Douglas Fir in the NYC area?

   Thanks,

   Mitch

1. 
   ChasStanford | Feb 20, 2004 01:18am | #13

   Hell, I'd build it just like Kirby did.  If you've seen his shop, or pictures of it, he has several of these.  They seem to hold up fine.  There's nothing wrong with doing a step-by-step on a proven design. 

   Make your workbench a means to an end, not an end in itself.

2. 
   JohnWW | Feb 20, 2004 02:31am | #14

   Mitch,

   Just go to any lumber yard/Home Depot and buy ordinary construction lumber, especially the larger sizes, 2x10 and 2x12 etc. and you'll very likely be getting Douglas fir.

   It is possible that they'll have yellow pine construction lumber but I haven't seen it in the NYC area.

   Try to buy kiln dried, generally not available at Home Depot, to cut down the amount of time it will have to be allowed to dry out sufficiently for your needs.  Stickered up in a heated area, the kiln dried Douglas fir will be dry enough to work with in a month or two.  Seal the ends of the boards to prevent serious end checking.

   John W.

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Feb 20, 2004 06:41am | #15

   Mitch

      The trestle would be OK, but I have to agree with Charles on just building it like Kirby's. Kirby has several of the same in his shop and used the same desgin to make a veneer clamp table from. It's a good, un-cluttered basic design that is solid as a rock. If you do it like Kirby, it won't budge.

      Doug Fir is readily available in the south and west. Have you checked with any sources in Pa. or NJ if you're close enough for picking it up? Southern yellow pine would suffice also. I would even cosider a base of poplar or cabinet grade clear pine. Wouldn't scare me.

   Good luck in the hunt...

   sarge..jt  Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   vacabby | Sep 08, 2003 03:21am | #3

   Sarge's replies are always good so I will add this for your further information.    On a worktable as with a simple chair the stress of any weight forced down from the top be it straight down or with a side to side, front to back force causes the uppermost portion of the legs to want to spread or deflect.    The forces are quite a bit less on the lower joints.    There is alot of glue area on your lower M&T joints but the majority of stress from hammering, chiselling, etc., is on the upper joint assemblies.    Even when someone leans back on a chair the most stress is placed where the seat assembly meets the back and at the front of the seat assembly not at the bottom rungs.

   Don't know if that answers all the questions in the universe but I hope it help you a bit.

   BTW.   Standard chisels will get you through most jobs unless you are working wide or deep mortises.   Sharp, off the shelfers will get the job done.    If you want mortising chisels keep your eyes out at estate sales or auctions.    You can often pick them up for next to nothing.

   Good luck to you.

   jb