Replies

1. 
   danmart | Nov 11, 2007 08:35pm | #1

   from the numbers you wrote and the dimensions of the plane, you should be able to bring it back into use. clean it up a little, fix the handle as best you can. the handle would really be nice to save and get it looking good. seems like the old handles have so much character and feel, it's worth spending some time. if i had  the parts for the plane i would send them along to get the parts and plane back in use. part of the trouble is getting a chip breaker and blade to match. once you get that you'll be in business. good luck

2. 
   JeffHeath | Nov 11, 2007 09:42pm | #2

   muddler

   It's definately sized as a #4 smoother.  If you have a #4 around, or have a friend with one, try the cap iron and blade from it to see if it fits.  If not, buy a replacement pair from some place like Woodcraft, and try it in the plane before you sharpen it to see if it fits.

   Good luck.

   Jeff

3. 
   highfigh | Nov 12, 2007 04:55am | #3

   From the raised area at the front, it looks like a post WWII #4 smoother. From the standpoint of collector/non-collector, it's not rare or expensive. The more important value is in who owned and used it before you got it and being from your favorite grandparent, money means nothing. Use it if you want and don't worry about what someone would pay for it, just enjoy it.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
1. 
   muddler mike | Nov 12, 2007 06:47am | #4

   yeah, I don't plan on selling it. It has WAY too much sentimental value for me to even think that. It would be nice, however, to at least know who made it and around when. Knowing my grandfather, he had little money to spend and would've bought a used, budget model and made it work. It's just that I have a thing for history, and I'm just trying to satisfy my own curiosity.

   thanks guys!

1. 
   highfigh | Nov 12, 2007 06:52am | #5

   As I mentioned, the raised area at the nose would make it a post WWII model, if it's a Stanley. There's no reason to even think about selling it.If you can post a photo of the chip breaker, that would help."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   Edited 11/11/2007 10:55 pm by highfigh

2. 
   BobinBagotville | Nov 24, 2007 02:49am | #6

   Hi Mike

   The plane shown, is not a Stanley. I can tell you that by the lateral adjuster and the frog face. There was a bizillions planes made but they mostly came from these 4 prolific makers, and this is How to tell them apart

   Stanley lateral lever always had the ever familiar two piece construction at the end (the small fin like tab)

   Sargent has a one piece tight U shape, like yours look like

   Union, has a one piece lateral twisted at the end , at 90 degree to make the tab, and finally Millers Falls, tab was made as one piece bent tab at 90 degrees.

   As far as the missing blade goes, the dimension you gave sound like a No 4 (in Stanley Numbering system) plane. Replacement blade would be easy to get.

   Suggest a good quality aftermarket blade (that frog could use a thick blade)

   but any old fashioned run of the mill Stanley No 4 blades from wherever should do.

   Note, this frog indicate its not one of the best Sargent planes (e.g., 409 etc) but with some tuning it should work fine.

    

   Good luck

   Bob

    

    

1. 
   muddler mike | Nov 24, 2007 03:22pm | #7

   thanks so much Bob. That's the most direct answer I've gotten so far. I wrote to Patrick Leach after reading his "Blood and Gore" site, and he mentioned it is probably a Sergent or Miller's Falls but no reason as to why. Those tidbits will certainly help for future purchases as well as satisfy my curiosity about grandpa's plane. I was thinking of getting Hock replacements for the CB and iron but was going to look around for some used ones first. After Patrick's mention that the plane was of "lesser quality" and your info on the frog and suggested improvements, I'm sure I'll be getting the Hock replacements now! It's fitting that I will be honing my hand plane skills on this one. I hope this plane will become a good user rather than a decoration.

   Thanks for taking the time, Bob.

   Mike

1. 
   BobinBagotville | Nov 24, 2007 07:23pm | #8

   You're most welcome Mike, glad to be of any help.

   Now, about Patrick and I, comments on the plane being of lesser quality, judging by the frog.  The big three's Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls, and to some extent the British Record, all produced various quality lines of planes. But all their better ones share similar characteristics, were it mattered the most:The frog

   The better ones, have a solid face on the iron bedding surface of the frog. Yours has numerous relief surfaces to minimized the amount of surfacing required after casting. As started with Stanley type 16

   How the frog attached to the bed, is also critical for good operation, it must be solid. The best design in this area is the Stanley Bedrock design, which also happened to be the one used by moderm makers LN and Clifton.

   Yours seem to be based on an older Stanley design (H shaped) which providing the mating surfaces are clean of rust and sit without rocking should be fine.

   Next we come to the blade and its support. By the way, I forgot to mentioned that your lever cap is missing its spring behind the lever, you will need a new one as well. Again, should be easy to find, and im not even sure yours is the original, if you indeed have a Sargent. (need more pics for better ID)

   If you use a thicker replacement blade such as a Hock or a LV, beforewarned that depending on the mouth opening, you may have to do a bit of filling to allow shavings to escape properly. Also, you may have to do some fiddling to engage properly the Y lever used to adjust cutter depth. I would then reccommend that you either fit in a blade lifted from another commun No 4, and learn to use your plane, or make sure you can return/exchange your new (Hock, LV, etc) blade if it does not fit right, before you try to modify either plane or blade to fit!

   About replacement lever cap iron, the correct type for yours would be the tear drop hole, as opposed to the kidney shape hole, althouth it matter not for its fitting and operation. Millers Falls has a better designed articulated one, which provided better contact area, and Record in their older Stay Set (SS) planes had a thicker iron/chipbreaker with a removable nose piece on the cap iron (reprised today by Clifton) These older Record SS by the way, are the far better ones in the Record line up IMHO

   In any case, like someone said earlier, fix the tote, clean the rust, lap the sole to the point where it matter most (I am not a member of the plane flat sole society :-) Put in a freshly sharpen blade and have fun. Yes, it look like a keeper, and no it has very little commercial value, even on the 'Bay

   Bob, slowly getting out of a third snow storms in a week

    

    

    

    

2. 
   muddler mike | Nov 25, 2007 08:21pm | #9

   Wow - thanks again, Bob. That all makes sense. Hopefully I can get it working well. Again, I figured my grandfather's plane didn't have any collector's value knowing how frugal he was. Looking around his shop for the missing pieces, I was reminded about all the handmade tools and modifications he made. He lived through the depression, so you get the picture. Still, I did find an old Starrett micrometer on his bench, so I guess he appreciated quality when he could afford it. 

   I was just at our local flea market and found a handfull of #4's and what looked like two #6's. Most of what I found were Miller's Falls planes. Do you have any suggested online resources for parts as well as history on Sergent and Miller's Falls? I figure it would be helpful to know a little about what I was potentially buying.

   Thanks again,

   Mike

3. 
   BobinBagotville | Nov 25, 2007 09:12pm | #10

   Sure do

   Millers Falls made some fine planes, some will say they were better than most run of the mill Stanleys. Thats because they always had the solid frog surface, unklike Stanley, and they sported this unusual patented articulated lever cap. Recognisable by the arched, shoe horse logo

   But...like all others, as years went by, and the hand tols market declined, they too, manufactured cheaper tools. In the planes, they would be mostley the grey/black ones (Shelburne, Mohawk, Value priced etc)

   The best reference on line to learn about MF tools is http://www.oldtoolheaven.com/index.html

   As for Sargent, their oldest and best ones were probably the VBM, Very Best Made.

   There is unfortunately not as much info on line about them, but the best resource is David Henckel and the few books he wrote on them.

   Their is also a bit of their history here http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id141.html

   As far as Stanleys planes goes, THE reference remains Patrick Blood & Gore http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

   As far as finding parts for completing older planes with missing or broken parts... In the words of Sponge Bob: Well, good luck with that :-)

   Forget it and try to buy complete, unbroken tools, it's cheaper in the end. If not, buy junker planes for parts only. The usual missing parts fetch sometimes higher prices than the complete tool!

   One last piece of advise when buying planes on line such as the 'Bay, the more you know about what to look for, the better buy you can make. You can spot lots of key details in the pics, and tell what it is, and its condition (like I could ID yours by the lateral lever) The blade should always extend past the lateral lever, if not, it means that the blade may not have much meat left on the cutter edge for example. The top shape of the Stanley Frogs, having an Ogee shape, vice being round over, always means a post Type 16 plane, one with a recessed surface frog similar to like yours, Record SS planes always had the solid frog, unlike the newer ones, and etc.

   Caution, sometimes parts are interchanged. Do your homework, ask lots of questions (here or on other forums)and shop wisely. Good luck.

   Bob, the old plane guy

    

    

    

4. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Nov 27, 2007 09:54pm | #13

   Hi Bob,

   I have a #9 and a #15 M-F planes and would surely like to add to my herd.  I spent a fair amount of time tuning and they work beautifully.  Am looking to add more MF's to the herd too.

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

4. 
   PaulMassachusetts | Nov 26, 2007 12:51am | #11

   My similar Millers Falls plane was fixed up using a Leigh Nielsen blade and chip breaker-their thick version.  LN was helpful on the phone with repair parts.  If my memory is correct Millers Falls used a numbering system based upon inches for their plane. Yours could be a #9 because the plane is nine inches in length. They are not uncommon on eBay-good tools: you can do a search for "Millers Falls Plane". Millers Falls is an old mill town in northeast Masachusetts on the Millers River.  

1. 
   DanCC | Nov 26, 2007 04:51am | #12

   Look real hard on the sides of the body.  Miller - Falls often (not all the time) stamped the model number on the sdies of the body.  It is sometimes hard to see until you start the clean up process. Dan Carroll