I have a vintage (40s-50s) Delta 1460 Wood lathe. I had used it for some small spindles but recently tried turning a small bowl. With the larger diameter turning I realized that the headstock shaft is not running true. I may have inadvertently damaged the bearings when I first bought the lathe while putting on a new drive belt or else they were damaged when I bought it. I had no manual then and may not have followed the right procedure to knock out the headstock shaft. On each bearing are some dents on an inner ring on one side that look like they aren’t supposed to be there.
Hoping that it is not a bent headstock shaft I thought I would replace the bearings. Online research gave me a an owners manual and a supplement that gave the proper method to change the bearings. Delta no longer offers replacements so I thought I would go to an online supplier I saw referenced several places, McMaster-Carr. I have sized them with a caliper but once on their site I was unable to decide from their descriptions and illustrations what type of bearings I have, other than that they are sealed to some extent. Until I am sure that the problem is the bearings I don’t want to buy the best but on the other hand I don’t want to buy low-ball and then find that that is the problem.
The bearings currently in the headstock have these markings:
POLAND
6205Z
HDL or HOL
FLT ISKRA
Thanks for any suggestions!
Replies
Take the bearings to your local bearing supplier and have them cross them to what they stock.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
Thanks for the suggestion.....I considered that but I live in a rural location and the local supplier is the local tool repair shop. They are the only such show in town and the lack of competition shows. In my own and friends experiences with them are to be used only when all else has failed. I was down there last year needing a pulley and all I got was " We don't carry those any more". I wouldn't trust them to get me the right bearing.
Are you sure it is not a 6205ZZ?
This is a double sealed ball bearing and what I might expect for a lathe spindle.
Here is a link with dimensions:
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7124?gclid=CJbLs7b25JkCFQoMDQodmxWoRA
Can you mic the shaft near the inner race to verify that it is 25mm and the outer bearing race to verify it is 52mm. The race width is 15mm.
If it is press fit into the lathe headstock, you may need a bearing puller to remove it.
Greg
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Thanks for you input.
I am surprised that you think they are metric. one inch equals 2.54 cm and 52 mm = 2.04724 " according to metric conversions.org. To me that would also equal trouble, or close, but not close enough. I have removed them and then reinstalled without a problem. The fit seemed good, neither too loose or too tight but I am not a machinist so have nothing to compare my observations with.
Cincinatti and All: For your information: the ZZ means Dust SHIELD on each side.When there is RS after the number it means SEAL so if you have bearing as follows:-
6205 = no seals or dust shields
6205Z= one shield
6205ZZ= two shields, and these shields are easily removed if one needs only one side to be shielded
6205 1RS= one seal
6205 2RS= two seals.
The last mentioned is what is commonly available and is meant for maintenance free operation ie no greasing.
The ones with shields are designed for use in applications where the inner ring is to rotate.
As far as I am concerned woodworkers should just use double sealed bearings unless there is a specific need to grease them or run them with oil in which case high speed extra accurate bearings are specified.
The best thing I ever got for myself when maintaining machines is the SKF Bible which packs all the information one needs, plus some. It was free from SKF where I come from.Philip Marcou
Edited 4/11/2009 6:55 pm by philip
Sounds to me like someone seated your junk replacement bearings using a hammer. In the 40s-50s, your lathe would have used 88505, which are the same ID and OD as 6205 but are wider with an extended inner race. I suspect the previous hacker replaced with 6205 best he could.
It's hard for a bearing to get so bad it causes noticeable wobble. You could have a lot of axial slop due to the wrong bearings. It could also be the shaft was bent when the aforementioned hacker hammered the bearings. If you're really lucky, it's something simple. I'd take a look at how you had the bowl mounted and whether your chuck was seated in the taper properly.
Check out the forum at http://www.owwm.org They'll help you get the bearings sorted out.
Pete
Edited 4/9/2009 9:31 pm ET by PeteBradley
Edited 4/9/2009 11:15 pm ET by PeteBradley
A dial indicator would be helpful. If you don't have one, you can pick one up at Harbor Freight for about $25. Get a magnetic base for an additional $7. You can check the runout at various locations.
A machinist friend may be able to assist you. I'm guessing from your observations on the bearings and by your tackling the replacement process, if you are not already familiar with the dial indicator, it's use would become obvious to you very quickly.Greg
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Yeah, I have been thinking about getting a dial indicator and base for years but have been put off by the the ratio of price to frequency of use. I have never bought from Harbor Freight after seeing the quality of some of the "bargains" a friend's elderly father boasted of buying there, but maybe I should go for it. As to a machinist, after posting here I realized that there is a woodturning club about 60 miles from here and I found their website and emailed their contact person to see who their members use for repairs. I got a name who I will use as a last resort. Of course he is located another 20 miles on the far side of their realm. Another one for my file on the perils of rural living............
There's not much I would buy from HF. But my Starrett is packed somewhere, and in a pinch I bought the $30-$40 package from HF that included a magnetic base. It worked fine and I was able to troubleshoot a lathe problem with my son's Jet Midi lathe.Greg
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Unfortunately the wobble is not dependent on having a bowl or just the Nova compact chuck mounted. With a 6" faceplate mounted on the outboard as a hand wheel and a 3" faceplate on the inboard, no wood mounted on either I notice the most runout on the 3" and with the pulley uncovered the pulley displays the same. The 6" seems to have less. Since the 6" has always been there as a hand wheel I would have noticed appreciable runout during my brief small forays into spindle turning when I bought the machine.I am hoping that the metric bearings are the problem. I just registered at owwm as per your and another's advice.
Most small machine bearings are metric. The correct ones for your machine are metric. Philip points out that there are some oddballs with English sizes like 6203 with a 5/8" bore but that doesn't apply to the your lathe and even that bearing has a metric OD.I didn't go into all the gory details last time but if your dates are correct your machine either came with a pair of 88505s or an 88505 and a double-row inboard (much less common). The correct sizes are readily available by mail order. The OWWMers will give you the straight scoop.Pete
I pulled the bearings back out tonight after answering all the great feedback. Yes, they are metric, 25.0 mm. inside and 52 mm out. I also took note of the fact that when I put the inside diameter reading prongs in and then I rocked them around, once they were fully tight, the inner sleeve could be tilted in relation to the adjacent ring or whatever it is called. that didn't seem right.
I also learned this afternoon that there is a bearing supplier in my small town in northern CA so I will be making a trip down there on Monday. Thanks for the help!
The easiest thing to do is what Don Green has suggested, but for your information a #6205Z is a common metric single row bearing size with the following specs:- inner diamter = 25mm,
outer " = 52mm,
width " = 15mm, and the Z indicates one dust shield only- note dust shield and not seal. BUT
As far as I know Delta machines of that vintage would have had New Departure bearings as original-and they would have been extended width as Peter Bradley said. AND they would have been IMPERIAL, so those 6205's could be the wrong fit on either the shaft or the housings or both- which could explain the run out.(One inch = 25.4 mm.....)
There is nothing wrong with fitting standard width bearings provided the extra space is accounted for by spacers if end float is taken up by exact shoulder lengths.
I am sure you could get the exact situation by looking up the OldWoodWorking machines site.
Just because they are made in Poland does not mean the bearings are inferior, but it would be better to get double sealed (not shielded) bearings then there is no fuss with lubrication.
Run out can be due to many reasons apart from a bent shaft which is not likely unless the machine has been butchered somehow.You can easily check the shaft for straightness once you take the bearings off it, and the housings to confirm that they are not damaged by bearing outer rings turning in them.Philip Marcou
Edited 4/11/2009 6:12 pm by philip
Yes, there are spacers there on the inboard side taking up slop on the 1" shaft where it shoulders up to the 1 1/4" for the pulley stretch in the center. There are large diameter (2") shims to space the bearing back from the headstock. .The metric does seem wrong to me. Close may be fine for some things but not for this it seems to me. I will head to the Old Woodworking Machines site.I will own up to my big mistake which got me into this fix to start with. I blew it when I traded a Woodfast short bed 20" swing bowl turner for the Delta. The Woodfast was bought helping out a friend who needed some money. I had never intended to get into turning. I decided a more general purpose lathe would suit me better. The Delta seduced me with its vintage castings, especially the legs. The Delta gathers dust and then I find myself living in the country and seeing all that beautiful figure in the firewood rounds I am splitting. I found my crystal ball the other day and it told me that after spending some skill building "facework" time on the Delta I will be in the market for a lathe better suited for bowl turning.
New Departure commercial bearings were almost all metric, only their "R" series was in inches. The standard for the industry is metric. The automotive industry in the U.S. used a large number of inch size specialty bearings such as wheel, gear boxes, that were inch series. However most electric motors etc. all used metric including car alternators and transmisson bearings. The bearing you call out would be a 7505 New Departure equivalent. I have a 30 year old Rockwell/Delta lathe and it has two bearings which appear to be 5 bore. The manual shows both front and rear bearings to have the same Delta part no. From the picture they look like single row bearings. The 7505 has one shield and if replacing I would get a sealed bearing for better grease retention. If money isn't a problem specify an ABEC spec#3 rather than the standard 1 grade as the 3 spec has better runout. New Departure no longer produces commercial bearings. FAG, SKF, Hoover, NTN are all good quality bearings. Check the housing for wear where the outer ring is seated.
The difference in rounout between ABEC 3 and ABEC 1 is a few tenths (.0002-.0003). There's no point in putting ABEC 3s in this machine.Pete
Edited 4/11/2009 12:27 am ET by PeteBradley
The ABEC 1 is ok but a 3 has better pathway finishes, sound quality and in general is a better bearing for the money. Any bearing that did not meet ABEC3 then became a 1 if the imperfection was not too bad. You are right a one is acceptable for this application but if you can get a 3 for a couple of dollers more it is a better product.
> The ABEC 1 is ok but a 3 has better pathway finishes...and in general is a better bearing for the money.This is a common fallacy promoted by people selling skate bearings. The ABEC scale defines specific tolerances. That's it. Take Slater's lathe for example. In this application, ABEC 3 and 7 will be indistinguishable in use from a good-quality ABEC 1. The price difference however can be substantial.Details on ABEC here:http://www.engineersedge.com/bearing/ball_bearings_tolerances.htmPete
Edited 4/11/2009 7:43 pm ET by PeteBradley
Here are two tables listing the dimensions of common bearings, many of which are found in woodworking machines.The designation or identification number is the column on the right.Philip Marcou
I was involved in the manufacturing of commerical bearings and there is a difference in pathway quality. The OD and ID tolerances and run out are a little tighter but the significant difference is in pathway geometry and quality of finish. ABEC 3 had better honed pathways and the in house specifications for parhway roundness, lobing were much tighter. In addition sound quality was much quieter as a result of better honed pathways, less lobing and less runout of both raceways. Reject 3 spec became 1 spec bearings. One spec will be fine but if the cost difference is slight you gain a lot of unseen quality with the 3 spec. also slightly improved runout at the spindle face.
If you were involved in bearing manufacture you know nothing in ABEC says higher numbers have to have a higher quality of finish, and the differences are meaningless in this application. Using a higher rating isn't going to hurt anything of course.Quality does vary by brand. I usually use NTN but I've had good luck with Nachi also. For some applications like bandsaw guides quality doesn't matter (since they'll be chewed up long before the internals wear out) and cheapest is best.Pete
Edited 4/11/2009 11:13 pm ET by PeteBradley
Got to the bearing shop yesterday and bought a pair of skf 6205 rs2 bearings @$17 a piece. They helped but they didn't fix it. There is no more noticeable movement when I pull up and down on an end of the shaft. Still have a little run out on the outboard side and an problematic amount on the inboard. It is very noticeable on the stepped drive pulley too. The drive belt has a noticeable flutter which I forgot to mention earlier. The pulley on the motor shaft is spinning true.
I may not have mentioned it but I notice all of this at very low rpms. I have a counter shaft set up so we are talking 200 rpm. Prior to setting up the counter shaft (a craftsman double ended motor with the original 4 step pulley on the output side and an 8" pulley on the in put side coupled to a 1.75" on the 1hp Leeson drive motor) the lowest rpm was 915, way too fast for bowl turning. I can understand how the wobble might not have been noticeed turning spindles at that speed by the prior owner....
I may spring for a link drive belt and see if it helps a little by perhaps cutting some vibration. I don't expect it will do much. I saw a drive shaft for sale on ebay recently but since I wasn't sure what was up I passed it by. I hope another comes up and that it isn't bent.
Unless someone on the Old Woodworking Machines site has some new insight on my problem I am going to assume that I have a bent shaft.
It sounds like you've got runout you can see by eye. Given the other things you've done that points to a bent or damaged shaft. It's possible you could get it straightened, but your best bet is a replacement part. You could post a want to buy ad on OWWM's "Bring out your dead" forum. You could also check with Plaza Machinery in Vermont, who will likely have it but will be on the high end of the cost scale.Were you able to get axial play out using 6205s? This is important also. There should be a bearing spring on the "inward" side of one bearing, most likely outboard.Good luck!Pete
I pulled the bearings back out after all the great feedback and yes, they are 25 mm i.d. and 52mm o.d.. I must say that surprises me. I wish that trend had caught on and we had abandoned the imperial measurements when there was some momentum for it in the 70s but that is the beginning of a rant on my part.....The housing displays no conspicuous signs of wear but I noticed on measuring the inside diameters that the inner sleave can be made to rock (with the prongs of the caliper inserted and tight) in relation to the rest of the bearing. That doesn't seem right. I found that I do have a bearing supplier here in my small northern Ca town and I will pay them a visit on Monday. I'll get the abec-3 grades if the differential isn't too great, and then report the results here. Thanks!
I purchased dial indicators for work and home from Enco. http://www.use-enco.com Currently 0" to 1" dial indicator (enco brand) #605-4080 priced at $7.99. They have several magnetic bases to choose from. All have worked well.
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