If you could have just two planes…
lumberjacksson
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
If you were to buy two planes would they be:
Block Plane or LA Block Plane
LV 4 or LV 4-1/2
I expect that these will be the only planes I own for quite a while so versatility is very important.
Thanks in advance…
Andy
Replies
If this is what you have narrowed it down to, just from my own personal expereince and YMMV, I'd ge the LA block and the 4 1/2. The LA helps on end grains and does just as well on long grain chamfering and the like.
As for smoothers. The slightly larger size is nice just because it smooths the surface a touch quicker because it covers more area in a pass.
If the question was only 2 plane generally, I'd get a LA block and No. 5 jack plane. The jack really can do anything, especially if you buy an extra blade to grind for smoothing and finer work. It joints, it smooths, it thicknesses, it shoots, it scores!
Lee Valley sells what they call a 5-1/4 or junior jack. This may be a nice comprimise as far as a bench plane goes. Do you see it having the same versitility you were refering to?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=45156&cat=1,41182
I don't own a junior jack size plane, so i can't speak from personal experiece. I always thought of the junior jack size as something that was found in school shop classes in the 1950's where they were a convenient size for adolesent hands and perhaps a little cheaper for the scholl districts to buy. That's just my own weird association for the junior jack.
That said, it all depends on the user and the prime uses. Are you a smaller person, who might find a smaller plane more comfrtable to use? Do you buy your lumber presurfaced? What do you think you will use the plane to do the most often? I mean versatility os nice to have, but really only if you might ever use it. For example, if you thought you might be jonting edges often, I'd say the extra 2 inches of the 5 would be beneficial. Those 2 inches would also help in rougher surfacing applications where spanning more board for blade reference is useful. On the other hand, if you thought smoothing was what you'd being doing most, the shorter sole is probably better. At the extremes, bench planes are not interchangable - a 7 won't do the work of a 2 and vice versa, but in the middle ranges, its really a matter of preference and and work habits. Hope this helps some.
Patrick Leach has put together a web page he calls his Stanley Blood and Gore that goes through all the Stanley planes from 1 to 608 or what have you. Here's a link to the page on the bench planes so you can see some of his thoughts on the 4 1/2 5 and 5 1/4:
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm
A scrub and jointer if you intend to get real work done with a two-plane-only lineup.
Trust me, I work wood exclusively with hand tools and you can do without a block plane for a while. Well, a good while really. I rarely use one anymore. I use a smoother for shooting ends. I guess I'll run a bevel with a block plane from time to time.
In following up on CStan's message I noticed that Lee Valley is running an introductory special on their new scrub plane for those interested.http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=51871&cat=1,41182,48944
Hi Cstan,What do you think of the idea of using a LA Jack as a jointer (with a high angle blade to provide a york pitch)?Andy
I think it's too short to shoot long edges well.
My own choice would be a nice low angle block plane and a shoulder plane.
It would be toss up though between the block plane and a smoother.
What type of work do you see yourself doing. It is next to impossible to choose a set of planes without knowing this. Are you working from rough wood? Are you only doing trim work? Mostly plywood carcass work? Peter
Peter,I primarily intend to do stand alone furniture to start. I want to build a blanket chest type settle, bookshelves, and a framed mirror to match a bedroom suite. So far I've only built a workbench, some shop cabinets, router table with fence, crosscut sleds, a gripper lol, and a few other jigs. I'm hoping to joint rough lumber with a sled for my 12" planer as well as thicknessing. (Though I'm not adverse to doing it entirely with hand tools CStan...)I'm looking to use the planes for final surfacing, touch ups and for joint work (I'd probably need to get a shoulder plane for mortise and tennon work but I plan on floating them for now.I don't want to spend more than $400 - $500 (CAD) which would by two bench planes or a bench and a block.Sorry for the long windedness but its clear from the variety of responses some detail is probably neccessary!Andy
Andy,
Even without knowing exactly what you intend to do, I'd heartily recommend the first two planes be a #5 jack and a low angle block...As Samson mentioned above, the jack can do virtually anything, with an extra iron, a radiused bezel, it can be made into a very effecient scrub. The low angle block will come in real handy for end grain work.
As to any particular brand...In truth it's the Indian that shoots the arrow, not the arrow that matters. So, I'll leave that debate to those who actually believe otherwise. Another suggestion is to pick up a copy of Garrett Hack's The HANDPLANE Book. One thing that I can say with absolute certainty is that planes are like rabbits; they do multiply. I'm fairly certain that my buddy Charles (cstan) would agree on that point.
Good luck and have fun.
Dano
"Form and Function are one." - Frank L. Wright
Edited 6/10/2005 10:55 pm ET by Dano
Hi Dano,I picked up the handplane book tonight and am starting in. Thanks for the advice, it is much appreciated...
Good to 'see' you again.
Without knowing what power tools you have I would suggest that you get a 4 or 4 1/2 smoother-my preferance, and a 7 or 8 jointer. This will blow your budget of coarse. The smoother you need for your finishing and you need a straight edge for everything. The 7 or 8 is also excellent at shooting. Peter
I heartily second your recommendation; were I to add a third plane, I'd add a shoulder plane before I'd add a block plane - which I seldom use in furniture making.
Although I splurged on a LN #5, my Bedrock #7 was found at an antique tool swapmeet, in mint condition, for the bargain price of $60 - so one needn't mortgage the house to obtain great planes, especially if prepared, observant, and cash is hard to come by.
The first project I'd recommend for a new hand-plane user is a pair of winding sticks; they're invaluable when hand-planing, and making a pair solely with a hand plane is a good beginning project.
What would you select as your third and fourth planes?
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Edited 6/11/2005 1:14 pm ET by jazzdogg
Well I hadn't thought about it, but yes I agree that winding sticks would be probably the best first project for a hand plane user. For a 3rd and 4th plane to the initial poster I would recommend a shoulder and a scrub. Not necessarily in that order. All that I have and use on a regular basis are my scrub, #8 and my 4 1/2. This takes care of all my stock prep, from initial flattening to straightening, smoothing and shooting. I also have a low angle block and a low angle rabetting block [not overly fond of that one]. My next plane will be a shoulder [ I am currently trying to make a infill shoulder], if this does not work out well enough I will buy the LV medium shoulder. I am not a big Veritas fan but I have used the medium shoulder and thought that it was fantastic. So, all that I will probably ever own are a scrub, #8, #4 1/2, shoulder, low angle block, and the rabetting low angle that will probably end up in a yard sale one day. [ I also have a cabinet makers scraper plane, but I don't consider that a plane ] Peter
Peter,
Yep: Jack or smooth, plus a jointer, followed by scrub or shoulder ( I have the LV medium and like it, but wish it was a little narrower to allow me to clean up the occasional dado bottom cut to accommodate today's thinner plywood, scrub is old , anonymous & wood-bodied with a much-used iron). I love the adjustable mouth on my LN low-angle block plane - much quicker & easier than adjusting the frog on a bevel-down bench plane.
And yes, although the poster asked specifically about planes, I'd start with card scrapers and eventually add a scraper plane with toothed blade vor veneering, a variety of spokeshaves, as well as a good drawknife, travisher, etc.
Another good beginning exercise is a pair of pinch rods - good practice, and, like winding sticks, they'll be used.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
"I love the adjustable mouth on my LN low-angle block plane - much quicker & easier than adjusting the frog on a bevel-down bench plane."Now, take that idea and apply it to a 14" bevel-up jack plane; the mouth works exactly the same as your block plane, quick and easy. That's one of the features that I like best about my low-angle jack (the LN # 62). The Veritas even has a set screw to allow repeatability of settings and prevent slamming the mouth into the edge of the blade. Between that, the lower price, and the versatility of the bevel-up system, I'm confused why more folks that want to try to get by with only a couple of planes don't go that route. Now, I can see how it would be a specialty plane if you had a full set of planes, and could just grab one set up and ready to go. But If you're going to get by with just one bench plane, Deneb Puchalski, the L-N rep convinced me that low-angle is the way to go.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
"The single most useful tool is a low angle block plane. We have several, and any of them would be used every day in the shop. Next, I would consider our Low Angle Jack Plane. It is a very versatile tool, and in many peoples hands it can double as a smoothing plane. I t is also a unique tool with no other equivalent. With those two tools you can do a lot of work. Third, I might like a dedicated Smoothing Plane."From Lie-Nielsen's website, FAQ section
Charlie,
I've been considering a low-angle jack or smoother because so many folks at school have gone that route and are very pleased with the performance and versatility of them. That your recommendation is among several other very positive comments contributed by fellow "Knotheads" encourages me further.
I'm not sure I agree that "the most useful tool is a low angle block plane" for the work I do, as asserted above. But, my LN LA block plane, with its adjustable mouth, is a terrific tool that I'm glad I own on those occasions when it's called for.
The Veritas/Lee Valley LA jack & smoother are looking more attractive, based upon what others have said. However, I'm one of those people who has to see how the tools feels and operates in my hands before I buy items, like hand planes, with which I interact so closely over a period of several years; I guess I'll have to ask to test drive a few different makes & models when the new semester begins.
Thanks for your encouragement,-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
What do you do at the school? Peter
Peter,
We offer 56 classes, of which I have taken perhaps two dozen so far; while I continue to take classes, I instruct students and assist with machine maintenance, the urban forestry program, and provide logistical support (in my former life, I was a CFO) for the program. I am happy to report that, although I am now on the downhill side of my life, I am now fully invested in my life's passions, instead of watching from the sidelines as a hobbiest; it's a great priviledge to be immersed in a college woodworking program while designing and making my own furniture and playing music on the side. When I took my first woodworking course, after making sawdust for 30-odd years, it was an exercise in cognitive disonance - I was constantly amazed at how much I didn't know. Now, I am no longer surprised at how much I have yet to learn, how much life has to offer, and what a blessing it is to find one's passion and jump in feet first - even if, at first, you jump in way over your head!
Here's to sawdust in your shoes,-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Well said.
If your budget is about $400, I'd buy the LN rabbeting low angle block plane (60 1/2 r) and the LV number 4 smoother.
The rabbeting block plane does double duty for cutting tenons.
Don't lose too much sleep over the 4 vs 4 1/2. Either one will work fine.
If you want something bigger, for rough work, you can pick up an old stanley #5 1/2 or #6 for real cheap ($30) on ebay and throw in a new hock blade and chipbreaker (+$65).
Matt
Since you didn't set any constraints beyond just the 2 planes... I'd have a Sauer and Steiner adjustable panel plane (3 thou mouth, york pitch) andddddd... hmmmmmm what else don't I have already.... ummmmmm.... the new L-N medium shoulder plane...
If you meant to restrict me to only having two planes, they'd have to be L-N's; #40 1/2 and #6 with a york pitch frog...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
If you want Veritas planes, I'd get the new bevel-up smoother (basically a low-angle smooth plane with a variety of blades and a heavy iron body) and some manner of rabbeting plane, like a shoulder plane or the LN rabbetting block plane. You could choose the low-angle jack over the bevel-up smoother because it's longer and therefore better at flattening, if you prefer.
This setup would, I feel, give me maximum versatility, becaue the cutting angle of the bevel up plane is easily adjusted allowing me to adjust to get maximum results for whatever figure or hardness of wood. The length is a compromise that allows me to joint flatten, etc, as well as smooth, although not so easily. With a toothing blade, I can scrub, although not nearly so fast as with a scrub plane. The shoulder/rabbeting plane would allow me to smooth trim, pare rabbets and dados, etc.
I use my LN #62 (low-angle jack) non-stop. Most versatile plane in my set, and I have a few. Quick to adjust, light, affordable.
Happy to get more specific if it's helpful. Also, there is nice documentation on the LV site re: their bevel-up smoother that explains the adjustability of the bevel-up (a.k.a. low-angle) set-up. The principles they describe there will apply to any bevel-up plane, even a LA block plane.
Charlie
A plane is like a new bride... Ya got to know how to WORK with her!
Thanks to everyone who's helped me spend my lifes savings. In the past two weeks I've learned alot about the basics of hand planing through the forum as well as Hacks book. I've come to realize that for the work I want to do, two planes is just not enough.
As a first step I've purchased the bevel up smoother from LV as well as a low angle block. This will allow me to smooth machined pieces.
The scrub was on for an introductory sale price so I purchased it as well. Eventually I'll get a jointer, and the scrub will see some use. A 4-1/2 will also be on my wish list, as well as a medium shoulder.
I made my first shavings last night and it was a good experience. The scrub plane was tough to use but I found when I used a pull stroke I had far more power and control. The block plane felt nice in my hand and made some nice shavings in both ash and pine. I had problems with tearout because of the low angle in the long grain but closed the mouth which helped. The smoother is in the mail and comes with a blade honed to 38* for a net angle of attack of 50*.
I'm going to start sharpening with sandpaper because it's cheap and I've heard good things. I got some of the green stuff from lee valley and use leather attached to a wood block to strop.
Thanks again for the advice, I hope the thread has been helpful to others that are wading into the world of hand planing. It can be intimidating at times but after making my first shavings I know I'm headed in the right direction.
Andy
I'm not sure what kind of scrubber you bought, but using a traditional western scrub plane on the pull stroke sounds like madness to me. I think maybe you have too much cutter exposed.
Your learning curve might be shortened considerably if you bought some videos showing hand planes in use. Maybe a book or two as well.
Good luck.
I think maybe you have too much cutter exposed...
Not necessarily.. I do that for the tough stuff... I find it easier to control the plane.. But I'm strange.. I know that..
Haha, to me madness is driving the wrong way on a freeway not moving a plane the wrong way across a board. You are clearly a man who takes his planing seriously...
The plane is western style and not too much of the cutter was exposed. Less than was exposed to produce the catalog photos. It seemed very hard to push the blade smoothly through the wood but pulling I could go one end to the other. Of course the blade isn't all that sharp I'm betting and could probably use some work.
I'll look into the videos, there are probably some at LV.
Another question for you Cstan, if I was to get a #6 fore plane at 18" (2-3/8" wide) would it be adequate for your scrub/jointer combo you suggested earlier?
Thanks again,
Andy
A scrubber is properly used at a 30* to 45* angle across the face of the board just to clarify. On tame wood you can stroke straight down the board but it is contrary to efficiency really and most likely will result in planing low areas which is what you want to avoid with a scrubber in your hand. The sole is too short to bridge high spots - that's why it is used across the face instead of down the face and why, generally, you have to be very, very careful with this tool as it it super easy to remove too much wood or remove wood in low spots. With an eighth of an inch of cutter showing you are removing more wood in one pass than you typically would with your average portable planer or jointer. A scrubber can lay waste to a board very, very quickly if you don't know what you're doing.
Still trying to picture using a western scrubber on the pull stroke.
I think the cure for this pull stroke disease is a pile of about 100 or so bd. feet of hardwood lumber that you need to flatten and thickness in one day. If you're still working on the pull stroke at 5:00 in the afternoon then I'll gladly eat my hat. Gladly.
I don't know about 100 bf but I did "lay waste" to 3 bf last night... I decided that I would cancel my gym membership after that.
I'm going to need to joint the edges of 4' boards so I'll hold out for a larger plane (#7 or #8).
Andy
Andy...
unless you're seriously masochistic, a #7 will be more than enough. I've used mine for anything up to 8ft (about as big as my shop can handle) and it's like just another day in the office... More important is getting a good quality long straight edge; I use a 6' builders level simply 'cause it was the longest straight edge I could find...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
If you are having trouble visualizing using a western scrub plane on the pull stroke, then ge the Rob Cosman DVD "Rough to Ready" from LV.
You use the scrub on the pull stroke by turning the plane around so that the front is pointing toward you and then you pull. Saves turning the plank around when planing 45 degrees across the grain. Also uses different muscles than "pushing" all the time. The plane is still cutting in the same manner.
Chris
A western plane is simply not set up to work efficiently on the pull stroke, IMO.
One or two boards fine but not a whole pile.
Edited 6/16/2005 6:18 am ET by cstan
Gotta agree with you.. I've used pull stroke to get around awkward angles of attack... but...
<shrugs>.. whatever works I guess...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
A western plane is simply not set up to work efficiently on the pull stroke....
I use a pull stroke a lot.. AND a Push... Depends on what I am doing... I'm sure there is some difference (not smart enough to know what) but seems to work OK for me?
You can substitute a fore plane as a jointer on boards of up to maybe four feet long or so. Much over that and it is a very inefficient tool to use for edge jointing. You can do it, but you'll spend a lot of time with a long straight edge checking your work.
The first two planes you need to own are a jointer and a scrubber if you intend to process stock by hand. If you're simply following up after machine tools then a jack and smoother start to look like more reasonble first buys.
I think you've chosen wisely. For your smoother, I'd add an extra blade or two with different bevel angles to maximize its flexibility. I think your planned next purchases are on the money too. If you're interested, L-N has a low-angle jointer, which can be used in a similar way to your bevel-up smoother (it's a bevel-up plane) in order to maximize it's performance, and it costs far less than a standard jointer. And, the Veriats medium shoulder is a gem; I own one.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Thanks to all for the advice. I've now completed Hack's book and am hooked.
In my search for an adequate jointer I conducted a little espionage work and managed to sneak into Lee Valley's R&D department. (It was early in the morning, thus the coffee.) I found a casting of their new jointer. It appears to be longer than a number seven and is a low angle bevel up style as is the recent smoother they released. The documents in the filing cabinet suggested a release date of late August.
If someone were to own the LV LA smoother, LA jointer, and LA jack I believe the blades would be interchangeable, an interesting concept.
Any thoughts on the LA jointer?
Andy
View ImageView Image
Are you trying to get arrested for breaking, entering, and tantalizing?-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Thanks to all for the input. I now own five planes and am contemplating the purchase of several more. Have collected a LA block, LA smoother, scrub, Miller falls #14, Miller falls #9Need to get a #7 but damn they're expensive, (over 200 for a decent one on ebay)Also looking at getting a shoulder plane but that will have to wait.At the end of the day, the answer to my question was you cannot have just two planes if you intend to do alot of the work with hand tools. Andy
If you could have just two planes...
I'd have a 747 and a Aerobat plane...
Here's my choices:
One of every Stanley ever made.
One of every Lie-Neilsen.
A complete set of vintage molding planes (whatever a set is).
Oh!!!! Did you say two? I thought you said two thousand. My mistake.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled