Replies

1. 
   DonStephan | Dec 07, 2010 08:37pm | #1

   My guess is that the bevel itself in a bevel up plane functions as the chipbreaker.  On curly cherry I've had much better results with my LN bevel up with blade sharpened to 48 deg than I have with my smoother and the middle frog.

1. 
   penderwoodrat | Dec 08, 2010 12:43am | #2

   Don

   I will have to think about that.  I am not sure the wood knows anything more than the cutting angle on the top of the blade. I assume the bed angle is 12 degrees for a total of 60 degrees cutting angle.  I have not tried more than about 50 degrees but with a bevel up it is easy to sharpen a steeper angle.  I really don't know why they work but i have a good success with bevel up.

   Bob

2. 
   roc | Dec 09, 2010 01:30am | #3

   Good thing the king didn't walk by with no clothes on

   Bob,

   you would have been taken away to the dungon. "chip breaker" is just a term for this extra hunk of metal they piled on the bevel down planes to add some chatter dampening to a less than ideal design. Started with wood body planes that can not be made bevel up. Now that we have iron (or metal for that matter) body planes we can go bevel up, put more support underneath the blade at the blade bed closer to the edge of the blade and viola ! No chatter and a simpler assembly that works better. Yep you are thinking right but there are still plenty of people swearing they see clothes where, in fact, there are none.

   Sure there may be other considerations in selecting a plane configuration but from long periods of experimentation on walnut, purple heart and bubinga I am convinced that the chip breaker does not "break chips" and I will add . . . a very narrow throat opening, for these woods anyway, does nothing of value. The accuracy of the blade sharpening, no rounding over from stropping or sloppy stone to bevel angle variation, and correct upper cutting angle in relation to the sole for the wood being cut are the key to thin consistent curls and no tearing on the most reversed or hard to plane figure.

   Welcome to the forum by the way.

1. 
   penderwoodrat | Dec 10, 2010 11:52am | #4

   The Kings got no chip breaker and doesn't need one

   Roc

   Thanks for the comments they certainly support what I have been finding with my bevel up planes.  What I really like about them is the ability to have both low angle and high angle capability with the change of a relatively in expensive blade.  The reason I started thinking about this is I have been giving advice to a budding woodworker and she is planing to buy a good quality plane.  I told her that bevel up planes have a lot of advantages and afterwards started wondering if there was a negative in not having a chip breaker.

   Bob the Pender Island Woodrat

1. 
   roc | Dec 11, 2010 06:30am | #5

   Greetings from an early hour

   I fell asleep on the couch too early and woke up at an ungodly hour and found your reply so went looking for some old posts you might like to read.  Due to the limitations of this new search thing on Knots it took for ever to find what I was looking for.  The old search thing was fantastic; could enter all kinds of parameters and things to look for.

   anyway . . .

   check these links out ( ah the good old days of Knots ! Pounding the key board; saliva and coffee flying I miss them)

   :   )

   http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/bevel-down-plane-angles

   http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/plane-truth-or-fiction

   http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/testing-sharpness-high-angle-blades?page=2

   Notice that the anti bevel up person who makes bevel down hand planes for a living still doesn't need a "chip breaker" to produce a first class hand plane.

   and this next link is to a FWW article from back in the day.  Worth reading this even if you have to track down a used magazine or sign up as a FWW online member

   https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2091

   The internet, a couch and coffee ice cream make for some very strange sleep wake habits.  I wonder how the human race will evolve ( or devolve) as a result.  Well I am off to bed.

   PS:  I usually try to stay out of John White's hair in this part of the forum.  I kind of strayed here from the Recent Topics list and started answering questions just like I was a big old dog before I realized where I was.  Sorry JW.

1. 
   lwilliams | Dec 11, 2010 09:21am | #6

   Richard Newman, in that old article, was working with a 20º block plane which has better clearance than a 12º block plane. Even so, he was setting it up for only the lightest of cuts.

   Here's another link about clearance angles in bevel up planes. This is by another plane maker who makes both bevel up and bevel down planes:

   http://sauerandsteiner.blogspot.com/2010/07/up-down-bevels-that-it.html

   In the comments about this blog, even one of the most ardent supporters of all this bevel up stuff admits the problems associated with obtuse bevel angles in bevel up planes.