I am getting long in the tooth, and I simply do not have time or the disposition to review all the excellent reviews available in the resources of FWW…so, will some brave soul out there, who is qualified thru the hard knocks and exiginces of life, tell me what are the very best straight or carpenters chisels so I can make this last purchase before I cross over the Jordan? ( There is no chance I will have time to wear them out, but I will leave them to my most promising grandchild, or failing to identify such a one, I will leave directions to my executor to find some young fellow in Nebraska, who loves woodworking, and give them to him or her.)
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Replies
Well I have direct experience with the Lie Nielsen bench chisels and they are fine. I gave my sons each a set of Ashley Iles bench chisels (English pattern) and they are also very good at roughly half the price.
The LNs are shorter and arguably better for chopping dovetails and light morticing. The Iles chisels are longer and are perhaps better suited to paring, but sturdy enough for light mallet use.
Iles makes an "American Pattern" which would be a better comparison with the LN, but I've not tried them.
If I had to buy one set, and money were not a deciding factor, the LNs would be my first choice, but you would be fine with either.
David C.
hadley
To add to, and 2nd, what Dave said, I can highly recommend the Lie Nielsen chisels. If you go to their website, you will see that they not only make bench chisels, but also longer handled paring chisels. I have both sets, and they are very good chisels. I am not a hobbyist, and use them almost every day. They sharpen well, stay sharp long enough to be considered an upper end chisel, and the handles feel well in the hand (although that's really something you'll have to determine yourself.
To compare, I have an $800 set of Nishiki dovetail chisels (just 6 chisels), and a set of Two Cherries bench chisels. I'm going to sell the Nishiki's, and I replaced the Two Cherries only because they are metric, and I work in inches, not mm. I got tired of the sizes not being a perfect fit in rabbets and dado's, etc....
If you work in metric, the Two Cherries are terrific chisels at half the price.
Jeff
Not to make anyone feel bad about buying two sets of anything but buying the paring handles will work for someone who can't afford two sets but needs to pare and chop. At the show last year, someone asked about this and Deneb mentioned that marking the taper on the handles with chalk helps the handles stay in place when they become glazed from inserting repeatedly.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Jim
My wife was suffering from "what to get Dad for Christmas" itis, and she got me the paring chisels. I emailed LN, and they said what you just said, that they are exactly the same chisels. Since I love both sets, (obviously) and the bench handles are hornbeam, and paring handles are cocobolo, I'm regrinding the bevels on the paring chisels to 20°. That will render them useless for chopping, but perfect for paring.
It's nice to have a great wife who knows how to spend my money very, very well.
All smiles,
Jeff
See I think that may be the issue I don't have one of those wife's to buy me nice wood working stuff. So I have no "enabler" for my addiction. Sigh........
Doug Meyer
"and she got me the paring chisels"Oh Darn! A bit off topic but do you know of any good suppliers of bearings for machinery? I got the motor for my spindle shaper back together and the pulley bearings are toast. I think I mentioned that the end of the shaft was boogered up when I bought that oak. I just looked in the Yellow Pages and they go from beads to beauty. Maybe they're still the same places but assume everyone knows who they are.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Jim
In the past, and it's been a while, I've had luck with Buddy Bearings. They are in Wheeling, Elk Grove Village, and Cary. (sorry all in Illinois). It's been a while, but it's a good place to start.
Jeff
I don't know were you are located, but in Texas we have Purvis Bearing. I don't know if they are nation wide, or even state wide. I do know of two stores that are 150 miles apart. So maybe they are a chain, I don't know. They have every bearing or seal ever made or they can get it. Well I just got the yellow pages to check the spelling and they have a web site. http://www.purvisbearing.com
P.S. hope that helps.
Just looked at the web site, and they are in TX and AR. I am sure you can call one of the stores, give the old bearing number or dimensions, and they can ship you one. I hope this info helps you.
http://bearingengineering.com/"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Hadley,
You are looking for the "Very Best Chisels". But you never said what you mean by Best. Do you mean most expensive?
There was a great thread in Knots a few months ago on chisels. The conclusion was that it is impossible to tell the difference between the good sets of bench chisels. Of course, the owners of the most expensive chisels probably dont care for that finding.
I have used lots of different bench chisels and conclude that the main difference between the cheap ones and the "good" ones (there are only two groups) is how often you have to sharpen them. You can get a nice set of Marples, which are now called Irwin, and they are just fine. You might have to sharpen them more often than the Lie Nielsen. It depends on what is important to you.
If you are just choppin dovetails, then a shorter set of chisels is easier to hold than a taller set. Look at Frank Klaus' video!!!
I have a set of Hirsch chisels that I got at Lee Valley. They come off the same line as the Two Cherrys chisels. They work fine for me.
HOWEVER, they have, like some of the sets of Two Cherries, and other brands, been highly polished. Some folks say that causes the long edges to become a bit rounded, and they don't like that. Well, I flattened the backs of the chisels, and that took care of that.
Hope that helps. If you are loaded with money, just buy the Lie Nielsens. You'll impress all of your woodworker friends. It's hard to go wrong with Lie Nielsen.
Have fun.
If I were you, I wouldn't worry much about whether I had the best set of chisels. Ashley Isles, Two Cherries, Hirsch, Henry Taylor, Pfeil, etc etc etc. or even Lie Nielsen. They are all fine.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Metod,
I just read your message back to me. I always enjoy hearing from you. Now I plan to give you a LONG answer. The reason is that yesterday I had my gall bladder removed, and today I am not to move around much. So I am stuck in front of this computer looking for things to do. By the way, things went well in surgery, and I should be back to full throttle in a few days. Today, however, the four holes in my stomach have left me a bit stiff. So here goes my long answer on good tools and good skills -- a topic that I dearly love, even though not everyone on Knots shares my strange blue-collar feelings on.
In the NRA, they say, "Guns don't kill. People kill."
In woodworking, we say, "Tools don't make furniture. People make furniture."
I have seen superb woodworkers use Marples chisels to make fine joints. I have seen poor woodworkers use expensive tools to make poor joints.
If I have my choice between a piece of furniture made by a fine craftsman with cheap tools, and one by a poor craftsman with fine tools, I'll take the former (without a moments thought).
On Knots, one often hears that phrase "Buy the best tools". Some folks seem to thrive on that statement. To me, it's a cop out. My advice is pay the most attention to your skills. Good tools are secondary to good skills. Of course, it is nice to have both.
Back when I was studying "Instructional Technology", I read of this guy who had a theory that he called the "Closet Theory". Others pushed for one type of media or another. He said that if you have a good instructional approach, you can use whatever media falls out of the nearest closet. That's pretty much the way I feel about tools. If you are a good woodworker, you can do well with whatever set of tools is on the nearest bench.
If I am going to put a chamfer on a board, and I can only do it with a $200 Lie Nielsen, and I can't do it with an old Stanley that I bought at a garage sale (and later tuned up), then something is drastically wrong.
So what is the value of "The Best Tools"? To me, most people equate that with the most expensive tools. Is a Holtey that much better than a Lie Nielsen? If I had a Holtey, I would hermetically seal it in a glass case in the living room and have it protected by an electronic alarm system.
BUT, if I am very wealthy, say I am Bill Gates, then why not buy two of each of the most expensive tools that are available. It does feel good to have "bench candy". I drool over the stuff. I look at the sheer beauty of a Holtey or a Marcou or even a lowly (in comparison to those two) Lie Nielsen, and wish that I had them to use.
I love the finest furniture. I love the finest tools. I don't need either. I cant afford to buy the finest furniture, so I seek to make it (I am not there yet.) I love to use a really nice Veritas or Lie Nielsen plane for the same reason that I like nice furniture. It's just nice to have something that the maker went the extra yard to make as nicely as possible.
So what's better than owning a fine tool? My answer is "making the fine tool". I have gotten started in tool making but am limited by time. After I retire, I will share my time between furniture making and tool making.
SO How does one get the skills to get the maximum out of a tool? That was your question. I think you know the answer. Use it with a critical eye and ear. Tune it up first. THen try it out. In the quiet of your shop, listen for the sounds of the tool and feel the movement of the tool. If there is a person around who is expert in the use of that tool, have them give you some pointers and some feedback. Then use it and use it and use it and use it. With time, we get better at it.
Another "theory" back in my days in Instructional Technology was "Spiral Learning", which held that you don't just learn something. Rather you never stop learning it. Each time you do it again, you notice different and more subtle things about it.
That explains to me why it is kind of silly for a newbie to buy "the best", say a set of Lie Nielsen chisels. Just close your eyes and visualize the newbie putting that expensive and beautiful chisel up to a high speed grinder to get his first experience at sharpening. It hurts my head to even think about it. I recommend that newbies start with chisels they get at Sears or at a garage sale, and practice sharpening and honing, until they get a real feel for it. Then after dropping those chisels, and then learning how and where to put a chisel so that it is less likely to drop, he is becoming more expert. I believe that a beginning violinist should not start with a Stradivarius. The thought of it is silly, unless of course, you are Bill Gates, and then, why not buy two Stradivari and hack away at em.
I like Tage Frid's books because he focussed on SKILLS, not on "the best tools". I love Frank Klaus' video on dovetails. He just oozes with skill, and the tools are obviously secondary. When I attain the skills of Tage and Frank, and the money of Bill Gates, I'll build myself a separate building for my shop and it will have all of the most expensive tools. Also, I am going to hire Norm to keep them sharp. :-)
Well, I have just about worn out my keypad, and I am sure that I haven't said much that you haven't read before, but I have successfully passed another period of time while my body heals. Thanks for giving me something to do during this awkward time.
Come on, lets do a few more threads on sharpening, on dust control, on setting up a band saw, on ..... Naw, talking about sharpening is just too DULL. Talking about braces and bits is just too BORING. Instead, lets do a thread on the fine points of the differences between Marcou and Holtey planes. Now that would be fun. Of course, before I get into that, I have to actually see a Marcou and a Holtey plane. So far, all I have are pictures of them with drool all over them.
Have fun, my friend. And thank you again for giving me something to pass the time for a while today. Just think, maybe someday I'll be lucky and rich enough to own a genuine Metod piece of furniture!!!
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have been reading this with interest. My skills are towards to low end of Knots participants, I am sure, but Ihave quite a bit more skill and experience at some other things like fly fishing and wing shooting, and photography. The key in all of those, as in woodworking, is....skill. You do need good quality tools to avoid a lot of frustration, but as someone said, the difference between good and best is...well...
In an odd way, a "best" tool, camera, shotgun, never performs at its potential unless operated by a master. The potential is wasted, as is part of the cost. On the other hand, a second-rate one will do nothing but frustrate.
Joe,
I agree with you. It is the same for photogtaphy, music, woodworking or flying an airplane. You say that you are on the low end of the skill spectrum in the Knots forum. Don't be so sure. And if you are, then look on the bright side, you have the exciting opportunity to learn more than the others. I am one of those who has been woodworking for four decades, but it has only been in the last generation that I have sought to really expand my skills, and Knots has been the thing that has open the windows and doors for me. I see the stuff that these folks do, and I figured, why not try new and different ways. For three decdes, I did my panel joints with dowels. They work fine. I have never had a door fail. But now I do mortise and tenon. I do my dovetails by hand now. I have started building tools. These are really fun experiences. It is great to try and stretch. One of the problems of a newer woodworker reading a thread in Knots is: which of all of those different opinions do you take? My answer is that one is better off to read them all, and them seeing what sounds best to you. If you feel like it, write back to the person who gave you an answer that seems good to you, and ask for more info. Of course, the best thing to do is to find a woodworking group near you and join the club. That way you meet local woodworkers and you can visit their shops and they can give you some pointers. There is nothing like learning from someone who is standing right there by you.If that isn't possible, then read, and try, and check your work, and try and try again. The psychologists refer to that as "discovery" learning, as opposed to "Didactic learning" in which you have a teacher present. Didactic learning is very efficient for quickly getting something across, but discovery learning, while it takes longer also sticks around longer. You don't forget what you taught yourself. So have fun. To me "learning" is the same as "doing". If you do a lot, then you will learn a lot. Making mistakes is part of the process. Just make sure that you are and stay safe. If you are thinking about doing something and it doesn't seem right, don't do it. Get some good books, and make lots of stuff, and enjoy every minute of it.Nice talking to you. Write back anytime.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Joe
Your post reminded me of an old friend of mine, Steve. I grew up with him, and we used to hunt together, ALOT! He has sinced moved out of the country. However, he was the most accomplished archer I've ever seen. The last time I hunted with him, (pheasant) he left his shotgun home, and brought his bow. He got 2! Absolutely one of the most amazing things I have personally ever witnessed (regarding hunting ability, of course!).
The biggest pain was looking for the arrows after he missed! Fun day, though.
Jeff
http://barrtools.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BST&Category_Code=CMCS
the lie-neilsens sure look good to me. heaven forbid that your grandson doesn't have an interest in them, but........if that's the case, i know of a middle-aged man in ct that could make good use of them. ;)
My mom always said "practice makes perfect", and I do belive she is right.
Hello Hadley,
I have used several brands of chisels and, generally, have been happy to have them and use them. This Christmas, my lovely wife gave me a set of five Lie-Nielsen socket chisels. The others I have, will see very little use from now on. The L-N hold an edge better, longer and have perfect balance and feel. I can say without reservation, the money spent on the Lie-Nielsen was well worth it.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
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