I am trying to set some finacial goals for myself and was wondering what the range of income was for Furniture-Makers/profesionals who use the craft as their main source of income.
Anyone care to share a yearly avarage or range or what you wish you made?
I love what i am doing and am going to do it regardless. There is just no “salery calculator” for this particular profession. Ive even tried looking up info on the IRS website.
Thanks in advance. dont be shy 🙂
–Cary
Replies
There were 42 replies in the general discussion thread. Lots to read:
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/income-poll
Strange that this post was located in both the general discussion and the business sections. Is this a quirk of the new forum? I followed the other thread and thought, at the time, that it was sure a similar post
It’s not the forum. I am the quirk or culprit in this case. I didn’t think it would get much attention in the “business” section (not much does). So, I put it in the general discussion area as well. Poor forum manners, I know, but 42 responses are much better than none. Sorry for the confusion.
--Cary
It is Possible, But...
Can a professional one-off furniture maker make it (into the middle class) in the US today? Yes and no - how is that for hedging an answer?
Yes, a skilled individual with much more than just excellent shop skills and expreience and one heck of a lot of hustle can make it. Multi-disciplined is the key. Marketing, business, schmooze, design ability, depth of knowledge, depth of skills are all part of it. The next most important ingedient is a mate with a real job and benefits. Seriously.
FWW unintentionaly (?) markets thru their magazine and its extensions, an indpendent woodworker lifestyle that includes: free spirit, casual intensity, experienced woodworker, retired (early), curious, successful, and educated. Flannel included. Sort of a concert pianist, turned neurosurgeon, then furnituremaker.
I think this is more myth that reality, therefore the low level of responses to the poster's query. Everyone can relate to the lifestyle of the FWW professional as presented in the pages, but few actually live it daily.
The reality is two-fold: Real furniture-making woodworkers, working alone, making one of a kind commissions are very few and far between. Secondly; they burn out early. Even those that do succeed rarely fit the myth/stereotype. Often obsessive compulsive, narrowly focused, heavily marketed, or just plain lucky is the norm. Transitory may describe others. The conditions that lead to their (short term) success also lead to their early demise. Those same conditions are also hard for an aspiring craftsman to duplicate in an effort to assure the best chance of success.
The FWW stereotype almost always ends up on the teaching track since it is far easier and stable than putting out original product year in and year out.. Go back and look at the various "cover boys' and you will see that every one of them does a whole lot more teaching than actual making today. Those that do not teach are running larger shops/businesses with an assortment of workers doing the work that they once did solo. And some are doing both.
Some slip into kitchen cabinetmaking, or architectural work as a more effective way to bring in security or just an income. This may be an effect of lost focus, weak markets or plain old pragmatism.
I do not think it is possible to craft a description or plan of action regarding the successful single woodworker. Find 20 of them, and see what is in common - spoken or otherwise. This may be as close as you can get, and the value of that may be questionable.
Having said all that, it is not impossible to do this. Someone has to be the one that succeeds at it. It might be you. I did it for a few years, but the money was not great, and the 'be creative now' demand burned me out.
Dave Sochar
Acorn Woodworks
Dave; this is the best response that defines the role of the single woodworker trying to exist in our society today and I think anyone that tries it should have a mate with a fairly high disposable income( the more diffcult challenge).e are many different equations that define what a woodworker really is, what their own individual values are and how they try to achieve them
ron
the Hebert-Applebaum report on the
Status of the artist in Canada ( this was written in 1982 as part of the proloque to the report0
you will hear people say
that poverty is the best spur to
the artist. They have never felt the
iron of it in their flesh. They
do not know how mean it makes you.
It exposes you to endless
humiliation, it cuts your wings,
it eats into your soul like a
cancer. It is not wealth one asks
for, but just enough to preserve
one's dignity, to work unhampered,
to be generous, frank, and
independent.
- from Of Human Bondage by
W. Somerset Maugham
there are some in this discussion who will have a problem comprehending this.
Dignity and Pride can be evasive when we are desperate
Ron , that hits home with me , so true but for some they can only read about being hungry and the effects it brings .
Living the scenario especially in this Great Recession has taken its toll on many , myself included .
To add to your list , from my lifes view another victim can be our Spirit can be damaged , I think that is where the meaness can come from , prolly not from our hearts or deep within our souls but more of a surface defense or knee jerk reaction .
yours in wood , dusty
Making a living
Excuse the delay - it takes a long time for electrons to travel to and from France. Excuse also the stupid name - don't seem able to fix this in my profile.
To answer your question, a 'pro' joiner here in France could expect to make the equivalent of 40,000 US dollars
Real Furniture Makers
...burn out early?
Like Sam Maloof? James Krenov? Alan Peters OBE?
Cary,
I started a thread a number of months ago about this, and another about a year ago. It is a fascinating subject. It brings out the nut cases who "do woodwork because they love it" and the kitchen-makers who get themselves mixed up with furniture makers, which is a completely different game. But it doesn't draw out the professionals, who just won't talk about it.
My last thread tried to get information on the chances of a new woodworker making it into the middle class by making one of a kind furniture. It generated a lot of heat, and virtually no light. I thought it was a very useful question. Heck, if you don't have much of a chance of making a decent living at woodwork, why not become an electrician by day, and do woodwork at night, just for the fun of it???????? I worked for NASA for over 30 years, and did woodwork in the evenings and weekends. I loved my job and my hobby. All three of my kids went to college and graduate school and got advanced degrees, and all did so without taking on any debt, and I paid off my house and cars, and am having a very good life, because of the career that I had, and it allows me to do woodworking full time now that I am retired. (But I don't sell anything that I make. The reason is that having to work to deadlines and to do what other people want, and what will sell, well that takes the fun out of it for me. I want to do what I want to do, and I want to do it my way. You cant do that if you are trying to make a meager living at making furniture.
If you want to make money in woodwork, I would suggest becomeing a home remodeler for the upscale crowd. DO NOT try do do this with lower and middle class clients. The economy is too bad to allow you to do very well there. However, I know w number of remodelers who are doing VERY WELL with the upper crust in the expensive towns of Virginia, Maryland and DC. You go to the rich people to loo for work for the same reason you rob banks to get money --- because that is where the money is. Well, banks don't buy much furniture. :-)
I work with one guy (part time) at Woodcraft. He got a degree in English, and then spent his entire working career doing woodwork. He has worked in the Smithsonian and in other great institutions in DC. But he never really liked doing woodwork. I can't understand why he did it. Now he has lots of skills and a great set of tools, and he doesn't do woodwork any more.
I know LOTS OF GUYS WHO DO WOODWORK MANY TIMES A WEEK, but they are either retired or have very well paying jobs, and it is their hobby. That is what I would recommend to anyone who loves woodworking. Get a real job that pays well, such as being a medical doctor or a heating-cooling technician, which will pay the bills and leave you plenty of money left over to be a woodworker.
IF BEING A WOODWORKER was a well paying field, I believe your thread and mine would have gotten a lot of positive results, but they didn't. We both got a lot of nothing -- beating around the bush, double talk, and ...........
If you really want to evaluate the chances of making money in woodwork, ask yourself why David Charlesworth doesn't make furniture, he teaches rich students. Why does Chris Schwartz make his money in writing and publishing rather than by building furniture? Why did Glen Huey leave the field of woodworking to get into writing and teaching rich guys? Why does a great woodworker like Marc Adams run a woodworking school rather than do wooworking for a living? Why do many of the Windsor Chair makers run classes rather than spend their time making chairs?
The big money in woodworking is NOT in making one of a kind pieces of furniture. I believe the highest incomes from woodworking come from starting up companies like Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley. One does not make money by making expensive infill handplanes for a few rich guys who think it will make them better woodworking hobbyists. Marc Adams is probably one of the highest moneymakers in the field of woodworking. His school is HUGH and his tuition is high, and rich guys love to pay him so they can come and take classes from well known woodworking names. And Marc has a lot of fun doing what he does. I talked to him a few months ago.
What about Rob Cosman? Look at his website? Do you think he makes money via those little wooded boxes he sells or by taking commissions? Not likely. And he has ten kids to clothe and feed and send to school. He makes money by being an entrepreneur. The makers of Festool are doing well.
There is a LOT OF MONEY TO BE MADE by selling tools and services to rich woodworking hobbyists. Look at the list of companies that advertise in Fine Woodworking. Do you think that LN and LV make their money by targeting out of work folks and the destitute. Not likely. They target the wealthier older folks with a good deal of disposable income.
MAKING MONEY IN WOODWORKING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAKING THINGS OUT OF WOOD.
If you want to try to make a go at making one of a kind furniture, then do not think of yourself as a woodworker. Think of yourself as an ARTIST, and sell to the artsy clientele. The best place to sell woodwork in the Washington DC area is at the annual arts and crafts festival in Waterford, VA. Look it up on Google. Waterford is an area of multi million dollar houses and gentleman farms that goes on for miles and miles. The people who go to that festival are not the poor and meek folks who are barely making it by in this world. This show is for the WEALTHY, and it is effective. There are very few pieces of woodwork sold at that show for less than a thousand dollars a piece! They generally have about three bowl makers who sell some stuff in the lower ranges -- that is, hand made bowls for $300 to $800 apiece. But that is the cheap stuff at the festival.
If you want to learn more about the people who spend money on woodworking stuff, get a part time job at a Rockler or Woodcraft store. As you wait on customers, ask them about what they do in woodworking. Almost all of them are thrilled to be asked, and they tell you. That will give you GREAT INSIGHT into who is doing the buying, and what and why they buy. I have been working part time (two half days a week) at a Woodcraft store since I retired. In that time, I have not met a single person who tries to make a living at making one-of-a-kind furniture. NOT ONE! I know guitar makers, home remodelers who work the expensive homes, contractors who do restoration on expensive OLD homes, and lots of older hobbyists. They hobbyists are of three persuasions: the furniture makers, the wood turners, and the carvers. I do not know a single hobbyist who focuses on doing home remodeling.
My opinions are based on my experience. Certainly others think much differently. I hope some of them write and try to give you information on how to make money in woodworking. Let me know what you think.
Have fun. ALWAYS REMEMBER TO HAVE FUN! Don't let the naysayers get you down.
Mel
Mel.. Geee... I am one of those nut cases who "do woodwork because they love it" (And to kill time.....)
Your "I would suggest becomeing a home remodeler for the upscale crowd." or the like has merit in my opinion. And I have a degree in English but I never use what I was taught if I can help it.... If I try I usually mess up all the rules I thought I knew when I passed all my tests.
I worked with the 'upscale folks' when I made/repaired fancy front and interior doors. Also, some interior woodworking such as repairing/replacing frames that held stained glass windows that were common at landings of staircases or at the end of a long hallway.
I had a full time job and I worked for salary out of my home at the time. I developed service and training manuals and I did that work mostly in the evenings.. I made about $4000.00 a month writing. Only about $2000.00 (MAX) profit on a very special door or other work AND I had to pay somebody else (a passed on old friend) that did any carvings I needed.
Yes, the 'upscale crowd' will pay big bucks but can get VERY fussy and even more demanding A-Holes. I guess these people get rich by intimidating others? Not sure? But I can say.. I never had a check bounce that I received for my work.
The only problem was getting started and the people you had to put up with.. Seems that most of my work came by 'word of mouth'.. I understand that gossip travels really fast... but NOT 'word of mouth' woodworking jobs!
My comment: "and the people you had to put up with.." I have met easied to get along with nasty person at a local bar and wanted to punch me in the nose for no reason...."..
And I will end with a very old Pogo quotation... "We have met the enemy and he is us. .....
WG,
One of the many reasons to stay out of making things for others is the customers, as you so rightly pointed out, can be a pain to work with. That problem is intrinsic to working for yourself. If you work for someone else, the boss can deal with the difficult customers.
Have fun.
Mel
Mel: A comment..
One of the many reasons to stay out of making things for others is the customers, as you so rightly pointed out, can be a pain to work with.
My best 'word of mouth customer at the time was very hard on me!'. She could be down right nasty but I always thought of her as something else.. Just nasty because she did not want to be ripped off. No real web/net then but I brought her estimates from local woodworking shops for the prices.. I was almost the lower bidder but somehow I got the job. Maybe she felt I looked like somebody she knew sometime...
I made little profit on her job.. But her reference made me a bundle untill the jobs ran out.. She was a bitch, but I always knew that she was not realy one.. She reminded me of my mother..Both had hard and easy lives.. I guess they get them mixed up at older ages...
I asked Kelly Mehler once at a Woodshow if it was even possible to make a go it as a business.
He just smiled politely(as anyone knows, he is a very nice and softspoken man) and said "No, its not possible." And smiled again at me.
I don't believe its an absolute statement and as great as Kelly is, he's not God.
I look at working for profit as one giant pain in the butt. Get ready to make a bunch of stuff you don't like...custom stuff that doesn't appeal to you. I commend those who can stay focused making pieces that don't agree with them. Frankly, I don't know how they do it.
I DO think the most ENJOYABLE form of work would be making what YOU want and selling it through galleries or Art Shows. But good luck. Galleries can be tough to deal with and they are going to grab 30% right away.
But guys, small business is tough all over. Large corporations rule the world, drive costs down so low by strangling suppliers and compromising quality. Why do you think Wal mart is packed every day? So its not just woodworking...its everywhere. And this economy makes it even tougher.
So all the pessimism aside, I think you COULD make it. Just let me know how you do it.
I had to reply to your comment
"Get ready to make a bunch of stuff you don't like...custom stuff that doesn't appeal to you."
Off topic but.....
I have not made anything for years while profit was the goal much less as a business. That said, I often make stuff I don't like...custom stuff that doesn't appeal to me. It often takes longer to make because of the style wanted or new challenges to solve.
I never let that get to me because I love working wood and other materials. In fact, almost every project turns out better than the last because of what I have experienced/learned making all the 'custom stuff'.
Will,
I commend any of you guys who can make stuff that is someone elses idea/creation. I've done it many times. I got real tired of it. I got so tired of using cathedral grain oak that I don't care if I never seen it again in my life.
I think I could make simple Shaker pieces...just very simple straight lined stuff...for the rest of my life and be content. But I know for many its just too bland.
hey, thats why we have all these different options. ;)
nomenclatures
Yes, "Wood Tart" has a certain ring to it, even though "Wood Slut" may be more truthful. ;-)
Yes , I resemble that remark .
I've described myself as "Mercenary Carpenter". I go to jobsites (the front lines) and install cabinets, millwork, flooring, tile, etc..
In my recent experience, I make more money installing than I do building stuff in my shop.
Still, not a lot of money. If I had more work lined up and a few good journeymen then I could make more dough. For now I'm enjoying the reduced stress of no employees. I'm at a point in life where I don't need to make a lot of money.
Bret
Income - what is that?
As one other poster said "you can expect to make about$10.00 per hour when you start and about another $1.00 per hour per year after that"
I am reminded of something from my own household: My wife wanted a chest of drawers for our (then) fourteen year old daughter, I didn't have the time available then to build a piece (for free) so my wife went to Wal-___rt and bought one. So when I saw what she bought (for nearly $300 bucks) I was none too pleased to be sure, but had to admit, I did not offer to build her a chest of drawers anytime soon.
So, our daughter likes to rearange her room about once a month. She does not however like to remove the weight in the drawers, you can alrady guess where this is leading... after three months the "new" chest of drawers was a pile of pieces on the bedroom floor. I was then called in to see if the chest could be "repaired". Here is what I found: the drawers were all MDF of various thicknesses and were just held together with knock-down style pins and staples. The drawer "glides" were just plastic runners that pined into the drawers and the chest side with friction fit plastic pins. The chest itself was MDF with a fake wood grain surface and the back (the failure point) was 1/8" hardboard stapled to the sides. I did repair that chest. I built new sides from veneer-faced plywood, a new 1/4" plywood back and repaired the drawers.
In looking at the piece I figured that we paid $100 per MONTH for that chest, $300.00 divided by the 3-month life it provided. If I had built a real chest of drawers it would have cost about $900.00 and would last at least 50 years (maybe 100 years).
At fifty years, this would be about $1.50 per month. (50 years x 12 months is 600 months)
Now if we woodworkers could just show customers that our work is far LESS expensive than the "cheap" furniture they buy now, then we would have a real market. Too bad society is so in love with the disposable lifestyle, maybe we can show people how much more "green" solid furniture is, think about it, if that chest of drawers lasts fifty years, we had time to grow another tree big enough to build its replacement !!
Robert.
Robert , What you say is so true about the disposible products that people buy .
The economic times have forced many to do without but I call it the Wal M##t mentality , it is the same thing when a weekend warrior goes to the big box to buy a few sheets of say Birch plywood ,,,they have some domestic Birch that is really not the grade we would use in a cabinet shop for about $65 a sheet or the C###a Formaldeply for $30 a sheet .
In that split moment the consumer forgets where the plywood comes from and what it means or what toxins are coming along with the plywood . The consumer gets blinded by price .
And the retailer is making dollars .
So we ask why will someone pay $300 for a chest that you could not sell for $100 once you leave the store but will not pay or save up for the $900 real chest that will retain much if not all of it's value ?
Necessity seems to over rule logic , I suppose it is human nature .
regards, dusty,boxmaker
changing society
Thanks for the reply dusty, I have to think there is a way to change the general attitude of the public, but it will be a big project and take time for sure. I have met people from Switzerland and Austria and they have a totally different view of Quality vs price. They have an attitude that if you try to sell them something that is not going to last at least 50-years you are trying to rip them off.
I have been wondering about the Custom Made link on FWW, and the ability to direct customers to woodworkers in there area that do the work they need (one of a kind commissions, repairs, restorations, turnings, furniture, cabinets etc etc etc.
It made me think of similar programs that link the public with say medical service providers, you contact the service agency and they provide a list of available providers in your area that do what ever it is you need. If FWW had a link like the CustomMade link but not for work already finished but to connect specific types of woodworkers with potential customers that might actually work.
If I was some family in say Atlanta and I wanted to find a woodworker that restores turnings, how would I fins such a woodworker. What if I have an heirloom and I want a copy made for my sister-in-law? How do I connect with the available woodworkers in my area and narrow my search?
I think there is an avenue available here, and it all starts with an association of woodworkers and using technology and networks we could create a means for the interested customers to find the available woodworkers, even for them to ask for price estimates online or see a portfolio of works done and so forth. Just an idea.
Robert.
thanks for the replies
I was labeled a romantic in the other forum but, I’m still woodworking full time and still in the middle class. I don’t think you need to change the public, just educate them. I like the comparison to “going green”. There are many people and households who are concerned with there environment. Their personal environment at home is just as important. Collecting quality over quantity is logical, economical, and improves your home atmosphere, resulting in a better quality of life.
Birchwoodguy, I know you are hoping for a website to connect customers with craftsmen before the products are built, but check these out anyway:
http://www.custommade.com/
http://www.etsy.com/
Cary, thanks for the link, very interesting stuff there.
Robert.
(we are all romantics, look at what we do!)
Robert.
Romantics
I was thinking further about the romantic nature of woodworking, am reminded of a definition of Sailing (I also like to sail) that I once read - here goes:
"Sailing: (verb) The Art of getting wet, and freezing while slowly going no-where at great expense."
After many many years I still remember this quote. Seems to have a lot in common with woodworking:
Maybe we can paraphrase as:
Woodworking: (verb) The Art of making sawdust, and noise while slowly creating wooden objects that only we can fully appreciate, at great expense... Aw but with knots and the FWW community we at last have an audience that does appreciate what we do. A whole gaggle of romantics. Just for fun anyway.
Robert.
Furnituremaking and money ...easy!
I raised 12 kids on our income while i built furniture full time for 12 years (till 9/11 attack). made a decent living and worked 30 hours a week and played with my kids on motorcycles the rest of the time. Get your priorities right, and the rest WILL fall into place. It was the best time of my life and i miss it, but have moved on. Most important in making it successful is having a designer outlet who represents your products and makes as much or more than you do on the product. There's always customers, but having a rep who will take care of the orders and sales is the key. We moved west and have our house, 4 acres, and shop for sale for only $120k if you want to move toward houston and give it a try! Wide belt sander , integrated vaccuum and other stuff to get you started. fwiw, I've had a feature on mesquite and a chair in FWW many years back.
Income Poll $$$$$$$
I woodwork part time and set prices based on competition.
If wanting to pursue this full time you may want to sit down and make a business plan.
For instance;
Your time, (hourly rate + health insure + income tax ) = $10.00 /hr;
Shop Overhead, (tools, electric, sales taxes, insurance, profit margin) = $2.00/hr;
Inventory, (wood, screws, glue, sandpaper + 2.5% inventory costs), = $2.00/hr;
if it takes 40 hours to make one piece then total costs = $560.
Just a thought!
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