I’m looking for an infill plane to work with some highly figured woods and burls and would appreciate any directions to useful reviews and comparisons which will aid in a tool selection. I’ve already read : High Angle Smooting Plane Comparison by Mangiameli but am looking for more.
Cheers
BJ
Replies
BJ,
Good question, I'm curious as well, hope you attract some good info. Here is a site you will get a kick out of.
http://www.shepherdtool.com
Steve
Steve,
I went up the the plane auction yesterday in Nashua, NH ...sponsored by Martin Donnelly. I never made it inside to actually see the auction, the parking lot was filled with tailgaters displaying all their old tools...and tons of planes....including at least two-three dozen infills with 5-8 Norris's and 4-6 Spiers(sp?).
What an experience ! Not only was the quantity and variety of things almost overwhelming but all the vendors were great people anxious to just chat and exchange knowledge. I've gotta look into joining this Mid-West Tools Collectors group.
Anyhow, I was very lucky that it was this weekend rather than last weekend. Last weekend I was doing the finish smoothing on my little A&C piece..I don't think I could have resisted the infills. This week I'm putting on the finish..and, as we all know, that makes us want to quit the hobby.
The prices on the infills seemed not all that high, quite reasonable even. Of course, my wife does not agree..."all that for one of those little things you push around on top of the wood"?
The quality and heft of the infills is quite extraordinary. Kinda like going from driving a Ford Echo to a Caddy or a Mercedes...just a completely different experience.
On the other hand, it made me think what an extraordinary thing the Bailey/Bedrock was/is. The infills are single purpose designed to do that purpose very well. Imagine carring a bunch of those things around to each job site..the smoother weighs about the same as a bailey jointer. Along comes Stanley, who not only provides versatility thorough technology, but at a substantial cost saving and darn good performance...so the woodworker can use a lot less in weight and cost to get satisfactory performance.
anyhow, fascinating day...
BG,
Now I'm jealous! You're a stronger man then I. How often do they do that sort of thing? I've gone so far as to fill out the MWTCA application form, this might actually get it to the mailbox!
There are infills on Ebay on a semi regular basis, how do the prices compare I wonder? Personally I guess I'd put a premium on the one I could touch. Do you suppose wives would be more inclined to not protest the cost, as much, if they pushed a Bailey then a Norris? Say a dull #3 then the well tuned infill? :)
Now that you have seen a few side by side, which one would you pick for a smoother for our basic available wood species? Would you lean towards a Spier or a Norris, or would it really matter which maker a guy chose?
Thanks for telling about it. I'll be enjoying infill daydreams all day now! Have a great day, and don't let the finishing ruin it. You're not fuming are you?
Steve
Steve,
Yes, it did take strength to walk away, as I mentioned, the finishing gods had helped strengthened that resolve with a royal screwing over while I was using transtint...reddish brown...only I can get that oh so hard to achieve purple hue ...
I have not seen on e-bay so I can't compare. But, my friend, when it comes to choosing which one(s), you are in for a real shocker...in addition to the Norris and Spier's planes there are also the craftsman infills...made by who knows...which are half the price (about) and awful good looking. My sense was the Spiers were a bit more substantial in the cap iron and maybe a bit broader...but I was not looking at with the intention of a purchase. Given the fact that there is no frog, and the mouth opening is what it is...I'd be looking quite carefully at what I wanted to achieve and if the tool had a good chance of delivering on that promise. But I think I would need to become much more knowledgable than I currently am.
In my dream world I don't make decisions...I've got them all....lol.
"Do you suppose wives would be more inclined to not protest the cost, as much, if they pushed a Bailey then a Norris? Say a dull #3 then the well tuned infill? :) "...I gotta admit, you can have bigger dreams than me...:-)
Okay, do a google on Newtown Bee. The calander details just about everything. Newtown is in CT....it distinguishing fact is that it has a telephone pole in the middle of the main intersection of the town...which you must avoid if driving...
Edited 9/7/2003 4:52:23 PM ET by BG
BG,
You found the secret to purple transtint!!?? On A&C stuff you might be onto something. It'd be unique at the very least. It's easy to see why some people can make a living doing only finishing isn't it?
I too would like some more education on infills. I wonder if anybody out there could recommend some reading material. Personally I'm surprised at the lack of attention this subject gets here.
So if I ever get in the position to buy one of these, its going to be a chore choosing aye? I'm looking forward to that day though. Hey even in your dream world, you still have to choose which one to use next :)
Your comment on the mouth opening kind of makes buying one off of Ebay a little scarier. How on earth could a photo be as good as holding one. I've thought about doing that, but you've got me leaning towards seeing some in person first.
Thanks for the Google fodder. I'll check it out ASAP. Are you serious about the pole? If so, that is just, well... I'm out of adjectives I guess. Have a good evening,
Steve
I wish I had been able to share your day. Thanks for the report. Could you give us some sense of the price ranges for the infills? I know that there is an Isles infill, for about $600, from the Museum of Woodworking Tools. I have spoken with the owner, and he collects older infills, including at least two by Norris that he mentioned. I just don't have any idea of what a good condition Norris might go for.
Thanks.
Alan
Alan,
I looked at so many different planes, many of which had no price tag ..its dangerous for you to put much stock in my memory..:-) I remember a couple of Norris's for around $485, $525 maybe....and craftsman infills around $280, $325. I don't remember the Spiers having a price tag. I also remember an Englishman who came over for the show with his tools..all brightly polished...he had a few Norris one that had a dovetailed sole...that was the only dovetaled sole I saw. He also had several craftsman infills. His Norris stands out in my mind because the blade was particularly sharp.
If you google Martin J. Donnelly you can see the auction catalogue on-line....I remember some infills being up around the 750 number in the catalogue. Again, I did not go inside the auction hall...there were a couple of classes of kids in there from the North St. Bennet school. I was having too much fun outside(and trying to catch my breadth).
Please check the Newtown Bee...I'm sure there is opportunities in the PA area.
BGI have the HNT Gordon smoother (which I realay like), and so cannot justify another (and spendy) smoother. I am not a collector. But thanks much for the information. Quite interesting prices (I thought they would be higher), since the Isles is about $600. I am sure the Isles is a great plane, BTW, although I have onle seen pix. The Museum of WW Tools in NYC has a bench set up to test drive all of their planes. I haven't been there yet, but will be in NYC this fall, I am sure, and will go for a visit. The owner, Joel, seems quite knowledgable, and like most WW, is certainly a friendly fellow, quite giving of his time on the phone. His is the store on the East Coast which carries the Shapton waterstones, which are GREAT!!!!!!Alan
Alan,
I agree. Like yourself, I'm a user not a collector and it is hard to justify several smoothers ..unless of course you need to have the mouth at different openings to get to the smoothest finish possible (hint, hint). At the prices I saw, however, it sure does make one stop and think a little before plunking down almost as much for a LN. For instance, given the quality of your work you might be thinking about a high angle (york pitch) smoother down the road. It would seem to me that is pretty much a single purpose tool...and a movable frog would not be all that useful...but the weight of an infill would be..
For me, I'll probably stick with my $15-60 old stanleys and keep trying to sharpen on the Nortons...sigh. However, I did swap out the table top for the cabinet saw last fall and it has made a world of difference ...maybe an infill would provide a similar inspiration...
The Gordon does have an exptemely high bedding angle. 55 or 60 deg., as I recall. It does curly maple w/o tear-out, which is why I initially acquired it. It is not heavy, but the cross member makes it a bit easier to push it as hard as required. And it was $160,I think, which is about 1/2 of the L-N.
Alan
There are a tremendous number of different infills out there. Some are pretty good planes and some leave a lot to be desired. Before you put a bunch of money into one it would be wise to educate yourself. The prices on some are user driven and some have their prices set by collectors. Collectors base price on conditon, rarity and on aesthetic features. Function usually doesn't have a lot to do with collectable plane values. Some of the most valuable tools in the realm of tool collecting were such failures and so nonfunctional that very few exist.
There were also makers other than Norris and Spiers, Slater and Matheison are some of the better ones that come to mind. I sold my infill for more than twice what one would expect for that particular model but the person who bought it knew planes and understood what he was looking at. I hadn't planned on selling it but found it hard to turn down the money. The reason I had that Norris was for demonstration purposes at shows. The main point was to show there are other non-infill planes that can out perform them on difficult grain.
The reality is that identifiable features of a plane account for its performance. Mystique isn't one of those features but it is the main selling point of many infills including many sold to woodworkers.
Larry Williams,
I wonder if you have any reference material in mind that might further ones education on this subject? I've read Garrett Hack's "Handplane Book", and I'd like something more in depth. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to try an infill, but like you said, identifiable features, not mystique, make a good plane.
Steve
Steve,
There are several books out there. One that's currently in print is Through Much Tribulation: Stewart Spiers and the Planemakers of Ayr by Nigel Lampert. Ken Roberts book Scottish and English Metal Planes is out of print but you might be able to locate a copy. Catalogs of both Spiers and Norris have been reprinted by collectors and you should be able to locate them through some of the antique tool dealers. It seems to me that Joel at http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com (a FWW advertiser I'm confortable mentioning here) once had printed a book on Norris planes but I can't remember for sure.
The one old infill I've seen that would have been a delight to own and use was made by Slater. It had a 55º bed angle, no tote and skilled construction of nice rosewood. It had about everything I'd want in a plane if I had a yearning for an infill. Unfortunately that plane was destroyed by airline luggage handlers when the dealer that had it was returning home after a collector's show.
Thanks for your time answering my question. I just looked at your website, wow! Some day I'd like to order a set of hollows and rounds. Beautiful planes. You mentioned that you had a "demonstrator" infill, so I assume you take your planes out in the public. Is there a place a guy could see some of your planes? I didn't look for a schedule of shows on your site, if it is there, don't bother responding to this, I'll find it. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Steve
Steve,
By necessity we've cut back on traveling this year. I'm just getting through some medical procedures that have had my work curtailed for months. If you're ever faced with it, don't take bone grafts in your arm and the effects on work performance lightly. I'm way behind and I can't tell you how thankful I am for patient understanding customers.
As of right now, we just returned from the last show on the agenda for this year. I really need to take care of existing customers before I go out hunting more. Fortunately, my partner makes our bench planes and doesn't have the back-log I have on molding planes.
Larry,
Thank you for the resources, regarding the planes. I noted your web address and will look at it soon. Thank you for the information and hope you head quickly.
Cheers,
Bill
Ouch! Hope everything is mending well. That sounds like something that would effect everything a guy does in a day.
Thanks again for your input here. I'm a reletively new woodworker and its great to have folks like you sharing their wealth of knowlege. I look forward to someday trying out one of your planes. Maybe a whole set? Take care,
Steve
Larry, From the tone of your reply, I assume you have a commercial experience with handplanes in general. Since I started this thread, I've spent much time looking at what's currently available for an infill to be used, not collected.
The range is significant from a Hotley at $5k, an Entwistle at $2k to a Sheperd at $650 or a St James at $400.
I'd be interested in your comments regarding these planes or other infills currently on the market.
Cheers
Bill
re Larry Williams
Yes, Larry has a bit of commercial experience. Here's the link to his site. After you've finished drooling over the planes, be sure to read the "Articles" section.http://www.planemaker.com/
Jeff
For current prices of Norris and Spiers planes, check out some of the British tool dealers. Two of them are Tony Murland(antiquetools.co.uk)-website http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/tools.htm, and Andy Stephens(Inchmartine Tool Bazaar) at http://www.toolbazaar.co.uk
I've dealt with the latter,and been pleased with the transaction.
Good luck!
Rick W.
I've got both the Gordon's and the Shepherd infill... they are both nice, but i have to say... that the heft of the Shepherd feels right... i can't tell any difference with either... they both leave an incredible finish... the Shepherd is easier for me to use... adjusting the iron was not big deal with either one.
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