Replies

1. 
   ring | Apr 02, 2006 08:08am | #1

   Try to identify the source of the problem. Do it when you're very cool and ready to take on a challenge :

   1. It could be the cases themselves. Are the faceframes in one plane before you even put the doors on? If it's the cases fault, then see how you could upgrade the sawing of the cabinet parts. If they're cut accurately they will pull up straight even if you're assembling on the front lawn.

   2. It could be the doors are not perfectly flat. If the door rocks when you lay it on a flat surface, then you need to examine what in the joints or the glue-up is causing it. How are you making the frame joints? Is there something systematic that is skewing the doors?

   3. It could be the hinge mounting, but I'd look hard at the other things first. If you're using Euro-hinges then it's trivial to do. But if you're using butt hinges, then mount with one screw each to test for fit. When it's right add the other screws.

   DR

2. 
   Dave45 | Apr 02, 2006 05:01pm | #2

   I would bet that a lot of your problems come from trying to work on the garage floor.  They aren't supposed to be level, and the concrete finishers just made them flat enough for parking cars - lol.

   Make yourself a workbench/assembly table that is as flat as possible.  It doesn't have to be dead-level, but flat is a must.

   Inset doors and drawers require that everything is flat.  If you have any twists, etc, it just ain't gonna work.  Assemble your carcasses face down so the front plane is flat.  Assemble your face frames and doors face down - and flat.

   Whenever I can, I attach the doors with the cabinet on it's back.  I clamp cleats in place to get the exact inset and tapered shims to hold the spacing, then attach the hinges.

   Door and drawer spacing is all about keeping things square.  I spend quite a bit of time and effort making things square because it's much easier than "tweaking" the doors or drawers and hoping it all comes out right - lol.

   P.S.  Please use the ENTER key once in a while.  Paragraphs make posts much easier to read.

3. 
   JohnH | Apr 02, 2006 05:24pm | #3

   In my experience with inset drawers (28 drawers in six chests), the advice from the previous posters is right on target. Let me rephrase it for a different perspective.

   Don't expect precision work if the final result (i.e. doors) are referenced to something else that is precision. There is too much chance for tolerance errors to build up. A smidgen of inaccuracy in planarity on the hinge mounting will completely throw a door corner off location. (BTW how about piano hinges? At least you know the hinge axes are on the same line in space.)

   I'm not sure how you do this with doors, but here is how I do inset drawers with 1/32" gap between adjacent drawers and to the carcass. Make the drawers as good as you can; make the fronts larger than rest (this overhang resolves the inevitable inaccuracies). Lay the drawers face down on a FLAT surface (e.g. dining table, table saw); tape shims of the appropriate thickness wherever gaps are to exist. Mark the carcass pieces around this foundation of drawers; saw; assemble in place. In this method, the drawer fronts are guaranteed to be in the same plane. Any inaccuracies are accommodated by how the drawer slides are mounted.

4. 
   Ronaway | Apr 02, 2006 05:36pm | #4

   Getting the parts to your case sawn very accurate and square is the first step to getting inset doors to lay flat in the case. The processing of your door parts is also critical. Straighten and flatten them to a rough thickness and let them rest overnight and then recheck and correct parts that have changed overnite, then plane them to final thickness. I assemble my door frames on a piece of mdf with everything clamped down to the sheet, I also assemble 2 opposing corners and then put 2 corners together to complete the finished door frame. Putting an entire frame together and drawing the corners together with bar clamps is a surefire way to wrack a door frame out of plane and out of square. Even with all this care you can still get some assemblies a little out of plane. If you have one corner that is protruding then try to set the opposing corner slightly inward to balance it out. Latching strategies can help align the edges where 2 door come together. If you have a corner that is set inward then install an inconspicous push block that doesn't allow it to go in when the door is latches. This whole process is a learning experience that is developed thru patience and careful processing. I never use anything but inset doors, and I think the look is worth the effort.

   Ron

1. 
   woodk2 | Apr 02, 2006 07:40pm | #5

   thanks guys.  Appreciate all the advice.  I am glad to hear that I'm not nuts...sounds like inset doors simply require more meticulous work, at least more than what I have been giving them. 

   (sorry for the run on paragraphs).

   I will keep working at it.  This is probably the most frustrating aspect of my current progress as a woodworker.  Nothing else frustrates me more than to get to the final stage of a large case piece and go to mount the doors and all is bad.  Very, very frustrating.

5. 
   mike4244 | Apr 03, 2006 12:25am | #6

   I will add one thing to the rest of the posts. You can twist a door when clamping and not realize it. Lay the doors you have made on a flat surface,saw table or the like. If the doors are not flat on the table all the way around,this is the problem. When gluing up,make sure the stock is flat,the clamping pressure only enough to close the joints.If the stock is 3/4 to 13/16" thick,use a 3/4" half round piece of molding between the clamp heads and the stock.This puts the pressure in the middle of the stock.With out the rounded piece you have a tendency to tilt the stiles slightly.Do your glue up on a flat surface.Only the center of the 3/4" round will make contact with the stock.

   mike

1. 
   webby | Apr 03, 2006 05:24pm | #7

   This may be a dumb question but I am learning too.

   I thought clamps like the K body really helped cut down on wracking and distortion when clamping? That is provided you acheived a square cut or shaped edge i.e. rail and stile cuts.

   Webby

1. 
   ring | Apr 04, 2006 02:34am | #9

   Good clamps can make it easier to get it right, but you still need to check after applying pressure that the door is in plane. Just to experiment, try setting one clamp out of plane on purpose (not parallel to the door) and see how much it can pull the door out of line. But I'd guess that the culprit is more often the fact that the edges of the frame pieces were not jointed at exactly 90º, or the tenon shoulders were not exactly equal. The slightest error here will multiply itself and cause the door to go out of plane, more so if you use a lot of clamping pressure.DR

1. 
   Dave45 | Apr 04, 2006 03:18pm | #11

   I use those Pony pipe clamps and they work just fine - if I make sure that my glue up is in continuous contact with the pipe.  I apply light clamp pressure then tap the workpiece down before I apply the final clamping pressure.  If I don't, things rack on me.  If I do, they stay flat.

   It's also importat to not overtighten the clamps.  Not only can overtightening starve the joint, but it can cause it to "buckle" slightly if the surfaces aren't perfect 90* angles - and they seldom are.

2. 
   mike4244 | Apr 04, 2006 06:00pm | #12

   Webby, I have not used K body clamps,can't say whether they will replace the rounds I use.Try the way I descibed without glue at first,stand the clamped up door and lean it against a wall. Sight the door, you should be able to see if it is out of plane. Parallels won't help because of the clamps blocking your view,otherwise they would work.

   mike

6. 
   Ronaway | Apr 03, 2006 07:54pm | #8

   There was one other things that I failed to mention on this subject and that is about hardware. Most think because hardware is a manufactured item that all pieces are identical. This is not so. Once you have your doors hung mark the location of all the hardware pieces as you are disassembling in prep for finishing. Make sure the same hinge goes back in the same place that it came from. I even mark which holes to put screws into first as this can have a big effect on how the door rehangs after finishing.

   Ron

7. 
   jerryport | Apr 04, 2006 06:20am | #10

   I had this same problem.  I finally realized I needed to invest in a jointer.  Although my tablesaw is very good quality and I checked for squareness, it is still a little off when it comes to gluing up doors.  I also make sure my clamps are on a flat, level surface, and I don't put too much pressure on the clamps.  Haven't had a problem since.

8. 
   jackplane | Apr 04, 2006 09:10pm | #13

   In addition to these replies, avoid measuring more than once when installing inset doors; use blocking of the appropriate size/depth for easy repeatability during installation and layout.

    

1. 
   cicero | Apr 06, 2006 06:27am | #14

   Are you using euro hinges?

   I find them the easiest to fit,sorts a lot of the probs you mentioned.

1. 
   cadiddlehopper | Apr 06, 2006 03:22pm | #15

   No one mentioned humidity changes though a suggestion was made to wait overnight before proceeding. In my house are two base cabinets made from air-dried walnut about 30 years ago.Doors are raised panel flush mounted. They are still in the process of stabilzing. One frame is twisted about 3/8-inch but it hasn't kept up with the doors!Personally, I always try to avoid flush mounting inset doors because wood never ceases to change shape with humidity changes unless you live in the desert somewhere.Cadiddlehopper

9. 
   WillGeorge | Apr 06, 2006 06:17pm | #16

   Sorry, I am digressing.

   Ya' derserve to do that once-in-awhile.