Friends, I was looking for interesting designs for boxes on EBay when I happened onto a woodworker who also makes infill planes. He has one for sale on EBay now. As of today (Feb. 9) it still has five days to go before bidding closes. I believe this man has tried to start a business making these planes by hand. As of now, it has 17 bids, and the high bid is about $178. I believe he has hundreds of hours into making this beauty (at least it appears beautiful to me). I have exchanged an email with the maker about an exquisite box that he made, but have not talked with him about the plane. I am sure that it is hard to tell how “Good” (whatever that means) via a set of photos, but I would like to hear comments by folks here on Knots, for my own edification. I noticed that the base and side are put together with pins rather than dovetails. My guess is that is not as “good” as dovetails. I wonder if it makes a difference in how the plane works or how it will hold up over the centuries. Anyway, we have a lot of handplane enthusiasts around here, so I thought there might be some interest in a discussion on this plane. I couldn’t copy the photos of the plane that are in the EBay ad,, so that I could put them here. I was able to save the photos as an HTML page. and I will try to upload that. If that doesn’t work, the item number in EBAY is 220551669593 The address of the ebay ad is: http://cgi.ebay.com/Lazarus-Infill-Smooth-Stanley-4-1-2-Sz-Prototype-plane_W0QQitemZ220551669593QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3359e76759 The maker’s name is Matteo. On EBay, his name is panzica13 He has a 100% positive feedback as a seller. Hope to hear from you. Mel
Replies
Looks like an interesting design, but my knowledge of infill planes wouldn't, uh, infill a thimble. ;-)
Until he establishes a reputation, he may be selling at a huge loss on eBay, however.
Mel, it is a rather handsome design. I would think the pins would do a fine job of holding the plane together. Especially since he used so many of them.
Two interesting features to note: the bed for the blade is metal. In all the infills that I have seen the blade is bedded on wood. Also, it uses a Bailey style blade adjuster. Any infill that I have seen that has an adjuster it is a Norris style.
Rick,
I appreciate your insights on the plane. Not having any real experience with infills, I didn't know what to look for. Now I am learning. Also I am glad to hear your idea that the large number of pins should be plenty strong in holding the sides to the base.
I wrote to the guy who made the plane and suggested that he joiin Knots. I believe he might be a great addition to the group.
Mel
Thank you.
Mel
Post deleted by user.
Derek,
Thanks for your thought provoking comments. You asked if I want to own the plane. I said in an earlier post that I am not going to bid on it. My interest was, as I said, in learning more about the differences between infill planes, and to get a feel for what are the important points to look for.
My thoughts on this plane are much more naive than yours. I come at it much differently. I applaud the maker for giving it a try. I have seen some of his woodwork. He is afraid of nothing. He is very down to earth in his approach to design and building, and he just goes and does it.
I suggested the builder, Matteo, join Knots. I hope he does. I believe he would make for some exciting interchanges. THE GUY ACTUALLY DESIGNS AND BUILDS COMPLEX THINGS. He seems to me to be more of a doer than a talker, so he might not join us.
I am in awe of people who build metal and metal/wood planes. Folks like Matteo, Philip, Larry astound me. But Matteo takes it a bit farther. I was impressed by the fact that he felt no compunction about being Holtey-ish. He was not trying to make things as fancy and good looking as possible. I get the sense that he was trying to build a Very Good plane without feeling the need to add things that are not necessary. It is always heartwarming to find people who think for themselves rather than just blindly following "the common wisdom".
I hope he gets $10,000 for the plane. If he does, my guess is that Philip will try EBay. I hope to hear from Philip on this plane.
Thanks for responding.
Mel
So Mel, are you a little touched by cabin fever yet? Judging by all your comments ated the last couple of days, I would say you are home and snowed in. My poor snow blower is just keeping up with keeping the parking lot and driveway open. Snow is up to the top rail of the garden fence. If I hand wanted to live with this much snow, I would have moved to Canada.(NORTHEN CANADA at that).
Dan,
You are very observant. You must be a lawyer. :-) I have been totally snowed in for a week. Must have more than 30 inches of snow in two quick storms. Have done a lot of woodwork. Made three dovetailed boxes and a coupla jigs. I have shoveled more snow than I ever thought possible. But I am looking to being able to get out of the neighborhood by the end of the week. I hope you fared much better.
Mel
You must have gotten a bit less than we did. I have run my snow blower more in the last week than in the last 5 years combined. Glad I changed in the oil and spark plug in it on Thursday. The snnow is up to the middle of the top rail on the garden fence; the top of the rail is about 40 inches above the ground. I have to get out there and open a path to the compost bin.
Dan,
No need for you to do snow blowing. The word on the street is that you don't even cash your paychecks regularly. You just put them in the dresser drawer. Why not just go in the drawer and pick one of them out and cash it, and pay some local kids to clear the snow. You can then take what's left and buy a couple of infills.
All seriousness aside. We have over 30 inches, but probably not as much as you got. Still we got plenty. My neighbor has a snowblowerr that he lets me use. Yesterday, just for the exercise, my wife and I went out and shoveled by hand. I slept good last night.
Ok now I am going to my dresser and pull out three of my checks and my wife and I are going to go out for a three course meal (burger, fries and a coke) :-)
When the warm weather comes, lets get together and go to dinner somewhere between your neck of the woods and mine. There has to be a good restaurant somewhere out there. I want you to teach me how to make secret dovetails and the houndstooth pattern.
Have fun,
Mel
Hi Mel
In the cold light of morning I ,looked to delete my post (above). It was excessively critical, and I disobeyed my Rule about posting replies in the early hours of the morning (when my fingers are no longer attached to my brain). The analysis was overcritical and did not convey my respect for the effort and thought that went into the design and construction of this plane. My apologies to Matteo for my rudeness. I did try and see if I could delete the post this morning (my time) but I am unable to do so.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Sorry you were not able to delete the message. This new system is a bit of a pain every once in a while. If you write a message to one of the folks at FWW, they will delete it, if that is what you wish. You are a gentleman.
I found your comment interesting that you were asked about that plane by someone on another forum looking to buy the plane cheaply. Based on Lataxe's experience and the other discussions about infill planes, I thought that those things were items that people were PROUD to pay high prices for. The other day, Lataxe said that he would take his Marcous to the grave with him. I don't believe he would be as happy with his purchases if he had bought them for the same price as you could buy a LN or LV smoother. I still find what I call "the lure of the Holtey" to be a very interesting phenomenon.
Have fun. Enjoy. Lots of good stuff going on these days, especially your armoire. VERY VERY VERY NICE.
Mel
Hey Mel, I have in my hand one Woodcraft business card that is inscribed on the reverse from one MM from Burke, Virginia. Can you guess who handed kit to me? Here's a hint - I attended the same talk as you did (only at my woodwork club, not yours). Heh!
Thanks. It was a nice touch.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thanks for letting me know that Greg passed the card to you. That was a fun encounter. Greg is a very nice guy in addition to being a sensational woodworker. Knowing you has enabled some fun adventures, including the one with Philip's plane, and the one with Greg. Three cheers for Knots! Without Knots, none of this would have been possible. I am amazed at how small the woodworking world is. One day, I was in Woodcraft and a guy buys some stuff. I asked him where he was from. He said Mt. Crawford, VA. My god! That is where Ray Pine lives, and I don't believe there are more than five families in Mt. Crawford. So I asked the guy if he knew Ray Pine. The guy said, "Sure, he is my neighbor." I asked if the guy could wait for two minutes. He agreed. I ran down to the local bakery and picked up a loaf of artisan bread, and gave it to the guy to give to Ray. He got a big kick out of it, and in a day, I got a message from Ray, thanking me for the bread.
I met a guy here on Knots who is from Orlando, FL, where I used to work. When he told me his address, I asked him if he know my old boss. He lived next door to my old boss for decades and the families are good friends. He came up to VA to take a course on making Maloof-style rocking chairs at "Rocking Chair University", which is only an hour from me. He and his wife came over for a visit and we had a great time.
I could go on (as you know :-) but you get the idea.
Life is good. Again, thanks for letting me know. If any more of your Perth woodworking buddies ever plan to come this way, please have them contact me. You have my email address. I will show them the local woodworking haunts, and treat them to a good meal. (This goes double for you. I want you to check out my Stanley 45, which is fettled to the hilt, and works like a charm ((as much of a charm as an open mouthed plane can work. Ha ha ha))
Have fun.
Mel
Mel, what's your guess on
Mel, what's your guess on whether the Woodcraft CEO will go "under-cover" on that new TV show?
Ralph,
"what's your guess on
Ralph,
"what's your guess on whether the Woodcraft CEO will go "under-cover" on that new TV show?"
That is one interesting and thought provoking question. It would be fun to watch. Why not write to him and suggest it?
Mel
"...I still find what I call "the lure of the Holtey" to be a very interesting phenomenon."
Really? In the words of one of the tool dealers I know, "How many people do you think buy a Rolex watch to be able to tell time?"
Larry,
Good to hear from you. I think of you often in my quest to learn more about the use of hand tools. Your question :"How many people do you think buy a Rolex watch to be able to tell time?"
The answer IMHO is: almost all of them, BUT they are not only telling time, but making a public show of having spent money on a watch. THis is an old topic on Knots. Derek wrote an interesting thought on the use of a very nice and expensive handplane. I believe he said something like, -- it may not make me a better woodworker but it makes me feel good.
So it is obvious that the reason that someone would pay more than $500 for a modern metal or infill smoother, is "the lure of the Holtey" - a phenomenon in which one buys something which is ungodly expensive just because one can. It may be to show off to others or just to remind oneself of one's success.
HERE IS WHAT IS INTERESTING TO ME. I know many people who talk big. They often act like big shots, and puff themselves up. Some might think these folks have a superiority complex. I believe just the opposite. The only reason they do that is because they are not happy with themselves. They have an inferiority complex.
So if a rich woodworker wants to puff up his image with a Holtey or two, this tells me that he doesn't have a good strong self image, but rather he feels the need to show off.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with a rich woodworker buying unnecessarily expensive tools just to try to puff up their self image or their image to others. I am saying that it is an interesting phenomenon. It says a lot about the human condition.
I believe that for the price of a Holtey, one could buy one of ever tool that you and Lie Nielsen sell, and still have money left over to buy some wood. !!!!!!!! Which makes more sense, all of those great tools, or one Holtey?
By the way, I think your tools are rather inexpensive. I don't put any of your tools in the Holtey camp, in which he polishes the underside of screw heads, and spends time and money just to make his tools have allure to rich old woodworkers who are more than willing to part with their money. I believe your tools are a great value for the price, and that some of them, the hollows and rounds, for example, are very underpriced for the value they give. I sincerely hope that you didn't think my "lure of the Holtey" comment has anything to do with your wares.
Enjoy. I wish you happiness and success in your work. You are one of the Gods of today's toolmakers. And you have been very generous to me with your wisdom and time. I am in your debt. I don't see Holtey haning around here helping folks who want to learn.
Have fun.
Mel
When I win the Power Ball, I might buy a Holtey - A) because I could, and B) out of support for his efforts. I'd also buy a full set of Marcous, to help fill the 40'x80' new shop I'd build. ;-)
Mel,
It didn't even occur to
Mel,
It didn't even occur to me that you might have been talking about the stuff we make and I certainly didn't even feel defensive. Your post did bring to mind a label of "vanity planes" for some of the shelf jewelery available today. But then the interest in that stuff has benefited me a lot. If not for tool collectors, there would be little information about the history of the tools. The tool collecting community has contributed a great deal to the woodworking community and a huge amount of knowledge about traditional tools and techniques is available today because of the collectors.
Gee, back when time of day mattered to me, I wore a Rolex for just that reason - telling time. It was, however, a less gaudy stainless/gold model, not one of the all gold models. I had bought my wife at the time a Lady's Rolex, and she insisted that I wear one, too. Sorta like being told to buy a SawStop. ;-)
Ralph,
Comparing a "common" Rolex (that is, one that is not diamond encrusted), is not a fair comparison to a Holtey. A common Rolex is quite a nice watch. You can wear it in the shower, or in the bath with your wife, and it can take quite a beating. I think of a common Rolex as more like a Lie Nielsen #8 - a real workhorse as well as being nice lookin'.
Indeed, I am thinking of writing to Tom Lie Nielsen and suggesting that he add a "time telling function" to his planes. When I use a LN, I lose track of time. It would be good to put an alarm in each so that you can stop scrub-bing (for example) after three or four hours. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
I am a big fan of LN, LV, Larry Williams, and a host of others, but I still have not seen a plane worth more than about $500.
An interesting thing is going to happen to tool collectors soon. Since they stopped teaching shop in the schools, all of the kids have no idea what hand tools are, so within about 20 years, when the geezer-woodworkers die, there will be no interest in old or expensive hand tools, and the market for them will drop to zero.
The only way to combat this is for Obama to give every high school boy and girl (who wants them) a full set of Lie Nielsens and a six month class at the woodworking school of their choice. It would also help to give each of them a nice LN workbench. In return, they would be required to spend one year making furniture for poor people. I refer to this as the "Wood Corps". This would move the US to the forefront of the woodworking world, increase the value of tools, and keep the bottom from dropping out of the collector tool market.
What do you think?
Mel
"What do you think?"
I think that if I said what I was thinking of saying about what you said (the person and program, bot you), I'd be doing all my saying in the Cafe, to which I'd surely be banished. ;-)
Ralph,
There is a BIG difference between the folks in the Cafe and me. THose guys are serious. I am just kidding around.
Have fun.
Mel
"THose guys are serious. I am just kidding around. "
Exactly. I'm way too old to start being serious about things that are serious jokes. Or, perhaps I have a secret serious ID I use for those posts. Senator, I do not recall, but might take an amendment to a fifth. ;-)
The looks of this plane don't
The looks of this plane don't do anything for me but it looks like it is well made and if it works well than I hope the seller/maker does well.
Troy
Pretty sad, and a sign of the times regarding Knots, that this is the only active thread in the Hand Tools section.
Maybe the trollish curmudgeon was right.
Jeff,
You said this is the only active thread in Hand Tools. Well, it is not a very active thread. I thought we might get a nice conversation going about the advantages of different aspects of the design of infills, and the advisability of using EBay to sell high class planes (eg Philip Marcou), etc. I asked Philip to weigh in on the Lazarus infill, but no sign of him. Derek added some interest to this thread with an incisive analysis of the Lazarus plane. I suggested that the maker of the Lazarus plane come over and join Knots, but he has not done so.
Oh well. The Lazarus infill plane auction is over tomorrow night. So far, it is only up to about $245. The maker put a lot of time into it. I would like to see him get a good price for it. We'll see.
You said you are from the school of hard knocks. The Lazarus plane maker went to the same school.
I hope things are going well for you.
Enjoy,
Mel
Mel
I looked at the plane. It shouts "Look at me!". Not very well designed, as far as appearance goes. In that market of the hand plane arena, the tool has to be very functional as well as look good. Aesthetics are judged in the eye of the beholder. I think that plane is ugly. I wouldn't pay as much for it as I would a used LN.
Philip's planes are very aesthetically pleasing to almost everyone who looks at them. And, it's very well documented, both in users we all know here at the Knots, as well as in print magazines, that his planes are of high quality as users, as well.
Frankly, the plane on ebay shouldn't even be spoken about in the same paragraph as Marcou or Holtey.
Just my opinion, and I think Philip is wise beyond his years to stay out of this conversation.
That's about as nicely as I can say it.
Good luck with your attempts at resurrecting this site. I spend most of my online time at my new favorite website, owwm.org. It is the location of the forums of the Old Wood Working Machines website, and it is all about old American woodworking machines. There are thousands of participants there, all with the same common interest.....Old American Arn. I've always been very mechanical, and very good at rebuilding cars, houses, etc....I'm going to try my hand at a 2500 lb. bandsaw shortly, as soon as I'm comfortable with my level of research. It's something new for me to sink my teeth into, now that my woodworking business is gone.
Cheers, and good luck with the pom pons.
Jeff in Crystal lake
Jeff
Jeff,
I will go over and
Jeff,
I will go over and visit owwm.com and check it out. Looking forward to seeing you there.
Disagreeing is not a bad thing. Having different opinions makes things interesting, as long as most folks have the common decency to "be nice".
The guy who made the Lazarus plane is a newbie to infills. That one is his first. He just got $835 for it. Not bad for a start. He seems to me to have a good deal of enthusiasm and willingness to tackle challenges. One thing I liked about his approach was that he was willing to THINK for himself and try what he thought made sense. He thought that a number of pins to hold the sides and sole together would be just as effective as dovetails, thought not as pretty. I am not sure, but I guess that he is correct. That is where I would have liked to see Philip make some comments - not to denigrate the Lazarus maker, but to comment on whether that design is just as strong -- we all know it is not as beautiful.
Matteo, who made the Lazarus, would probably like to have some comments from a professional maker. If I were him, I would. Helping out newbies is a good thing to do. But I can understand not wanting to have a discussion with a person who really wants to think things out instead of just following what has been historically acceptable. But then again, I am just one of those crazy people who really enjoys people who think for themselves and are willing to try new things to see how they work, and who are willing to take the plunge and attempt difficult new things.
My 30 years at NASA was filled with GREAT episodes of highly intelligent, well known professionals who had different opinions on how to solve a problem. I was lucky enough to be in on some late night sessions in which the engineers talked to each other about their differences. In all that time, I never experienced any of them being nasty to one another. In that respect, NASA is much different than Knots. But then again, that is to be expected. THis is a quite different group of people.
I do like an honest discussion of different points of view, and the acceptance that other views might just turn out to be better than the ones I hold now. I enjoy opinionated people who are willing to change their opinions when faced with good information.
See you at owwm.
Have fun.
Mel
I wish I'd seen Derek's
I wish I'd seen Derek's deleted comments. My quick analysis: workmanship seems OK, but the tool is way over-designed. Hand planes have 100s of years of heritage, and what works is pretty well known. Holtey hasn't elaborated, he's refined and improved (as has Mr Marcou).
All,
The Lazarus plane just sold on EBay for $835 !!!!!!!
Not bad for a guy's first try at making an infill plane. THere were 41 bids. Of course, he didn't make many dollars per hour for his work. But he did demonstrate that there is a market out there. I'll bet that if he puts a second and a third one up there, the prices will rise. I wouldn't doubt that when his reputation becomes more consolidated, he could get as much for his planes on EBay as Philip gets for his planes. I am very surprised that the China, where handwork can be done cheaply, hasn't picked up on the possibility of making real money by making FINE (not lousy) infill planes to rich woodworkers who want a bargain. Like Philip, the guy who made the Lazarus is a woodworker who decided to try his hand at Infill plane making. If he can do it, and if he can figure out how to do it just by reading and trying, then a Chinese entrepreneur should be able to figure it out just as easily.
This world is a great place - filled with exciting opportunities for a person with the entreprenurial (however you spell it) spirit. Indeed, it would be interesting if a Chinese entrepreneur decided to build a NICE (not lousy) Infill plane KIT, which the buyer could assemble and fettle. I'll bet that such a kit could easily sell for $500.
Mel
Mel,
At $835 you can bet that your new friend won't be making any more. With the time and tooling required to do that kind of work, that's a loss.
People are under the false impression that a high quality $1500 to $2000 plane, like the planes Philip makes are filled with profit. They are wrong.
Back when the economy was strong, I was cranking out $15K to $20K entertainment systems, custom offices, and libraries, etc...I remember a few comments here from individuals with no understanding of our business that they felt that they wished that they could charge that much for a job.
Those jobs were profitable, but nowhere near as profitable as some were suggesting. I barely made enough to purchase the next tool I wanted to add to my shop, and pour a couple bottles of my favorite beer down. Top quality material, tooling, and craftsmanship costs a lot of money to produce.
This post is getting long winded, just like someone else I know..... :<) . Bottom line, you won't see a planemaker surviving making top of the line metal infill planes for $800.00, and selling them one at a time on ebay. Jeff
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