Replies

1. 
   dickg | Sep 02, 2006 03:45pm | #1

   Hi:  I have a similar challenge.  First, see my 2/28/2006 posting (search "false glass door muntins").  This response isn't offered as expert advice--I'm writing this out primarily for my own benefit to have a prototype procedure nailed down. If any forum member whose done something like this would help by commenting on what I've come up with, I'd be grateful.  If you don't want to read exploratory stuff, please stop here.   

   I have been putting this project off because I will have three x shaped muntin patterns on each of six 57" tall x 16" wide doors.  On each door, there will be two horizontals in between the three Xs. 

   My solution is dictated by the ogee lip around the inside edge of the doors which will hold the glass.  I used the Freud repositionable bead router bit set which gives me an extra matching bead for each door component.  These doors will be painted.  So I plan to glue pairs of beads together which doesn't produce as clean a look as in your photo, but the patterns of the interior components will fair well into the lips around the inside edge of the doors.  I hope I've made this clear.

   I plan to miter in the horizontals and try to cope the diagonals on the router using a coping sled because the angles won't be 45s.

   Here's what I've figured out so far:

   I've tried a bunch of ways to do the insetting of the horizontal pieces.  I've discovered that by cutting 45 degree ends on a small length of the glued up muntin pairs (template), I can flip them over and mark the 45s accurately from the template onto the lips with a knife.  Because of the curve of the lip, this seems to be the only way to get the precision needed for the next step, in which I used a dozuki to cut near the marks and finished them off with a razor-sharp chisel.  Other methods, 45 d. angle on a Starrett square, or a 45d. jig placed against the side of the stile, didn't work because they don't support the knife as it travels down the bead pattern and a crooked line results.  I also made a 45 d. MDF guage to test the chiseled miter cuts because the glued up template is poplar and may lose shape after I do a few fits.  This marking method also gets the marks at right angles to the stiles. In my case, I found that there seems to be a good amount of gluing area at each end of the horizontals.  I plan to cut the ends of the horizontals on my disc sander, initally making them oversize and gradually trimming them to fit the cuts.  In doing this, I found the ends of the horizontal muntins can't have sharp points, because the edge of the glass goes a little bit farther under the bead than the top of the outside profile.  So it has to be stubby and the miter adjusted accordingly.   

   Now comes the part that worries me.  I don't like the idea of mitering in the diagonals because they will be an elongated X, not 45 d.  So I want to cope the ends using the same router bit that I used to make the lips for the glass.  I'll either have to disassemble the Freud bit to do this, since the glued up muntins will have to be milled on the point rather than the flat side.  Maybe I can make up some kid of jigs to trap them so that they can be milled (coped).  This seems daunting.  Anyway, once I get them solidly held within a coping jig, I understand I'll have to climb cut them to minimize tearout at the delicate ends.  Maybe if I initially route the jig and muntins together, I'll have the backing I'll need to get clean ends.  We'll see.

   An expert friend of mine suggested the following procedure for the application of the muntin structure to the glass.  First, glue the horizontals to the stiles.  Then inset a full size piece of glass and fasten with the Freud bit-crafted inner beads using micro-pins, making sure the glass can't move withing the frame.  Next, cut the diagonals as outlined above and apply them with  DAP Alex Plus caulk to the wood frames and the glass, making sure to get a full with of caulk under each muntin piece and squeezeout along the entire edge so that once the excess is cut, the "inside" edges of the muntins will appear uniform once the door is open.  Alex squeezes out white but dries clear and is paintable.

   So, after writing all of this I feel a little better but am still worried about shredding the muntin ends on the router.

   If I had to do this on a project that would have a stained finish, I don't think I would be able to use an ogee style router door set.  I think in that case the lips and muntins could be chamfered.   

   Any ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks for reading this.

     

    

2. 
   joinerswork | Sep 02, 2006 05:57pm | #2

   Woods,

   You've set yourself a challenge.  From the photo you attached, it looks as if the sashbars were sawn out of a solid panel and molded, then mounted in the door frame.  If you take this approach, (unless the door is very narrow) the left and right points of the diamond will want to shrink away from the frame sides in dry weather, either pulling away from the frame, or cracking somewhere along the short-grained diagonals.  The alternative is to make the sashbars as long grained members, then cope and tenon one end into the frame, and miter the diagonals together where they meet.  On traditional work, the fragile mitered joints were reinforced with narrow strips of cloth, soaked with glue and laid across the joint, in the rabbet for the glass, where they would be covered by the putty holding the glass in place.  When the putty dried, it added more strength to the joints.

   By putting wood panels in place of the glass, you will need to make provision for the panels'  seasonal movement.  They can float in grooves, that is you could work the quarter round mold as a "stuck" mold on both sides of the door.  This will mean that you will have to assemble the diamond around the center panel, reinforcing the joints with cloth only on the outsides of the miters,then assemble the rest of the door and its panels in an add'l operation.  It's a fussy job fitting the sashbars, and getting the panels to be a gently sliding fit in the grooves will be a further challenge, so that you don't crack the joints during assembly.  Once the door is together, it'll probably be strong enough due to the rigidity offered by the panels.

   It'll be helpful to make a shooting board with a groove in it to cradle the sashbars as you trim the miters to length. 

   Regards,,

   Ray Pine

3. 
   ring | Sep 03, 2006 07:42am | #3

   The door in the photo looks like its center part was probably cut with a CNC from one piece.  It's not a good solution, just an industrially expedient one.  There's no shortcut that I know of - you need to carefully miter the parts of each joint.  Only question seems to be whether the beading should be added separately after the joints are made, or made as an integral part of the muntins.  I'd make it separately because that will allow you to fiddle with the joints, reinforce them as necessary, fit the panels easily (make them to fit the muntins, not the other way around) and then afterwards add beading as a separate task.  Doing it this way it's still a finicky job, but there's less likelihood of cursing and having to start over.  Good luck.

   DR