We are planning new home in which I prefer to have a Craftsman decor on interior woodwork in both the kitchen & family room whereas my husband views painting as being faster & less costly as one does not have to use the more expensive wood. I l understand the finished wood may cost more & be more labor intensive but I view finished wood vs. paint as better value over the long term. I recognize the trim work must first be measured to fit, then removed to be sanded, apply finish & allow drying time & then once again returned for affixing to walls. Just how much more time needs to be allocated for this process?
p.s. Husband plans to be the General Contractor. I know he will be eager to move on to next step toward completion. I do not know if we are looking at a few days to weeks delay to complete via finish vs. paint? But I am willing to sand, etc.
Appreciate your thoughts on subject from additional costs/labor/time & your recommended types of finish for such job. THANKS!
Replies
Sadie -
Both the kitchen and family room are high use areas. In the long run, I think natural finished wood trim will look better for longer than painted trim. Nicks, dents and scratches in paint are far more obvious than they are in natural finishes.
Why cut and fit all the trim pieces prior to finishing? Prefinish all the stock then cut, fit and install. Buy him (or yourself) a good finish nailer if you don't already have one.
My opinion only, take it for what it's worth.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Great idea - prefinish all the stock prior to installation! Suppose I did not think of this as did not wish to waste products (material or refinish), but this could work! THANKS!
P.s. No nail gun purchased yet, but, no doubt, will be coming. Just trying to decide which best suits our needs. Suggestions?
Sadie -Any 'finish' nailer that will shoot a fastener long enough for the heaviest piece of trim you plan to install should be sufficient. We're not talking structural framing here. Just enough to secure the material to the wall.Things to look out for are:Safety mechanism to prevent or reduce the chances of accidental discharge - most come this way anyway but check them out so you're comfortable with whatever type of feature your chosen model uses.Most finish nailers, if not all, require you to press the safety foot against the work, then pull the trigger to fire the fastener. Pick one that's as finish friendly as you can find. In other words, you'll want to avoid making marks on the material from the nose of the gun. You don't really have to press all that hard. Some, perhaps most guns can be tweaked to adjust the "set" of the fastener below the surface. Just place the nose against the material with enough pressure to depress the safety.Alternatively, use a tip published in FWW a bit ago of using a piece of thin cardboard under the nose of the gun to cushion it and avoid leaving marks.Obviously you'll need at least a small pancake air compressor. You don't need much for a small finish nailer and only one tool being used at a time. Some nailer mfrs offer a package deal, gun and compressor. I think Porter Cable has a package like that. They're a good name to start with.In use, keep your hands away from the area where the fastener is being placed. If it should hit a knot or something hard under the drywall it can curl right back out of the wood and into you. Trust me, your reactions aren't nearly fast enough to get out of the way!Set up some saw horses in the garage and lay all the bare material out for finishing. Stain, seal, lacquer, whatever as many long 'sticks' as you can all at once. I think in the long run you'll find that this is even easier and faster than painting.Good luck. Let us know what gets decided and how it all turns out............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
This sounds like such a loaded question. I guess both have their merits. It mostly depends on how they are done. Alot of good design that i see use painted materials in a shape that reflects the style. But nothing can replace the texture and feel of wood.
Either way you have to invest time or money into it to build it up as something that is special. It sounds like you want your husband to invest a little more time or money in these areas.
A good general contractor would listen to your needs/desires and work with you. But he would also charge you more for it.
Your perception is exactly right. I do wish for more time to be spent to ensure we are not looking back & saying "if only we had done this". Considering this will no doubt be our last home to build & first one on our farm (plus he hates to paint), it needs to be right, though we all know no home is ever perfect.
As to General Contractor, I would prefer to use a GC in order to capture such vast knowledge. But being retired, many folks are telling him, since he has the time, this is the way to go...only time will tell! Actually, he has many talents, so I must show a bit of confidence. In the beginning, we did "agree to disagree" & this is the just the first! THANKS for your input!
Sadie -I'm going to assume that neither you nor your husband has extensive experience in the building profession with respect to surving as a general contractor. If you have, then please excuse my preaching. While the Breaktime forum is normally a more appropriate location for such a discussion as this, none the less;You will be hiring many subcontractors for major work on your house. Don't assume anything! Think through all the options related to each decision. Get everything in writing. Don't assume, even, that the plumber will install the kind of toilet you prefer. Give the subcontractors written specifications for materials. Do you want to use PEX, copper or galvanized iron for your plumbing? Know and understand the differences between them. Do you know where backing will be required for cabinets, towel bars and the like? There's a myriad of stuff like this you have to think about.Make sure every subcontractor and/or tradesperson you hire understands the level of finish and craftsmanship you expect. And if it's above the so-called 'industry standard' expect to pay for it. Discuss every aspect of the job with each subcontractor. Make sure there are no unanswered questions and specify that you need to be consulted if there are any that occur during the course of construction. Don't assume anything!If you're the general contractor, you're responsible for scheduling the work. Period. Every trade will expect some kind of schedule so they in turn can schedule their work amongst all the other jobs they have. That's only fair. But that makes you responsible for maintaining the schedule as well. How will you deal with an electrician that's two weeks behind in his rough in and holding up the drywall contractor?How will you deal with work that doesn't meet your specifications or expectations? Arm wrestling in the middle of an unfinished house isn't fun.I'm not trying to dissuade you, you can save money by acting as your own general. But then, it can take a few years off your life, too............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
The long term or resale value of clear finished vs. painted trim depends a lot on where you live. In some parts of the country, painted trim would stand out like a sore thumb. In others, clear finish would be very unusual. If you're thinking in terms of appealing to the widest number of potential buyers, look around and see if there's a majority opinion in existing local houses.
It probably wouldn't hurt to ask this question at Breaktime, either. Second button in the second rwo of buttons above.
Sadie, I've custom finished a lot of interiors on very expensive homes, and I've been around construction for over 40 years. I never heard of installing trim, then removing it to finish, and re-installing.
In every new construction job I have ever seen or worked on the trim was finished in place before the walls were painted. Prefinishing would take a lot of extra time and material handling, plus it would require a lot of additional attention to make the joints look good. Even when stripping and refinishing trim, I left it in place everywhere I could.
I have seen pre-primed trim installed, of course, but it comes that way from the factory.
Clear finishes take a little more time, depending on the finish scedule, but esthetic considerations should govern your choice.
I don't wish to offend, but if your husband knows so little about normal construction practice, you might consider using an experienced general contractor. Just a couple of mistakes due to lack of knowledge or experience can be way more expensive than a GC's margin, and a big part of the GC's job is selecting and supervising subcontractors. Due to your husban's lack of contacts, he's liable to end up with the least competent and reliable subs, the ones who the established contractors won't work with.
Michael R
One tip. There is no need to pre-cut the trim. Just finish it and put a top coat on it. Then Cut and install.
Also sanding may not be necessary . Finish a piece don't sand and see what it looks like most likely there is no need to sand. Unless you use Polyurethane. Then sanding is need if you have the trim in an area where others will run there hand across.
Hi Sadie,
Reminds me of the 10 year rule. You know - 10 years from now how much will it have mattered that you spent the extra time and money to get it exactly right?
Good luck, Steve
Sadie,
I'd have to echo the other comments about the risks of being your own GC. The trim question is a simple example of something that seems logical when you think about it yet turns out to add a lot of work or re-work. The stakes just get a lot higher when the questions are of a more structural nature.
I used to design and build homes - 25 years ago. I hired an architect and an interviewing GC's now for my remodel. The architect does a great job of explaining (gently) why my ideas might not be so great and what alternatives may be better. She would also be able to address a question about paint vs clear finish on trim - within the context of the overall design, location, etc.
The GC not only knows how to assemble a durable, weathertight home but he also has the long-term relationships with all the subs; he will be able to get a level of service you will never hope to achieve.
One alternative, depending on where you live, is to engage a consultant to coach you through the process of being your own GC. There have been several discussions on Breaktime about these guys. One active thread is by someone who is doing a major remodel with the help of UBuildIt.com: 53790.1
Hopefully the link works! If not, the thread is in the Photo Gallery.
Good luck!
Wayne
There really isn't much difference in the cost of applying stain and varnish as opposed to primer and paint, but it depends on the process followed. A good stain and varnish,( by varnish I mean any clear top coat), job will include the extra step of sanding between coats of varnish but many don't bother. Some materials such as pine, maple and cherry have a tendency to be blotchy with stain. To eliminate this, a pre-stain conditioner is used, which also adds an extra step but is fairly easy.
You can save on the materials as you have said but it will depend on what you choose for your trim work materials. You can always paint a stained surface later if your tastes change. You can't stain after painting as easily. A good option is to use stain for the public areas and paint in private areas. That way you can save some money where it won't matter, unless it matters to you. Another place to save is inside the closets. You can use much less expensive trim work in those, where it won't be seen.
Unless you are building the house to sell, don't worry about what will happen in the future. Somebody won't like it no matter what you do. In my area, painted trim is the first choice in nicer homes. It seems to accentuate the furnishings better and is easy to change colors when re-decorating. A Craftsman style, however is often stained. It seems to go better with the natural materials aesthetic of the period.
As others have said, the easiest way with both choices is to stain and apply one coat of varnish, or prime and apply one top coat of paint before trim is installed. That way you only have to fill nail holes and apply the final coat afterwards. With stained trim a colored putty is used that does not require sanding, just buffing. Painted surfaces are filled with a spackle that does require light sanding. We also paint the walls before the trim is installed. The whole process eliminates the labor intensive need to cut everything in. That is, trying to paint or stain nice straight lines where trim meet the walls.
As far as materials, I often recommend Minwax products for stain. They are quite consistent and easy to use. There are endless debates about finishing techniques and hundreds of products and methods. If this is your first time, I would not get too complicated. There is a heck of a lot of work in painting and staining a whole house. You should use methods that are forgiving. Being organized is a big help. Having a clean area and some racks for materials to dry out of the way is how most pros do it. You should pay attention to avoiding uneven application and runs and drips on the edges and back sides. After you do a piece, go back and check it for these things, load the rack from the top down. Don't have other activities going on in the finish room. Dust is the enemy.
As a general rule of thumb, for every $100 spent on finished trim installed, results in aproximately $300 of value to the house. If you have just 2 rooms that you wish to do stain grade, then the out of pocket expense will not be excessive to upgrade these rooms, especially if you are doing all of the work.
As far as cutting, fitting, removing, finishing, reinstalling, you can prefinish the material and do touch up after it is installed. For the cut ends, use a stain marker to help hide the seams. If you have touchup to do with the topcoat, you can always touch up an area and blend it in.
One issue you will run into if you cut & fit prior to finishing, is that you will not be able to have the topcoat on the fitted ends. This will throw off your joints if you have a coating on it.
My personal opinion on this question would be to install paintgrade trim on your home. I have worked in too many homes over the years and probably 90% were painted doors/trim and these weren't cheap houses $200k to $+10million. Another thing is that quite a few of these homes were origionally stain grade and the new home owner wanted all the trim/doors painted. Keep in mind that these are expensive homes, but NOT historical homes. My own home is mostly painted with a bone color on the walls, white on the ceiling, and white on the doors/trim. The accent is subtle, but very warm.
Just remember, this is your home and you need to decide if it is in your budget. Do this before you start the project. If you don't, you may not have the funds to really get what you want in the end. I have worked too many jobs where the customer wanted fancy cherry cabinets and could only afford inexpensive paint grade. Been there too many times. They get the gold plate faucets/sinks and then cry the blues that my cabinet price is too high.
One of the biggest problems with stained doors and trim is that usually the wood for the doors, jambs, and trim don't match, which also means the stain doesn't match either. There are homes around me that have pine, jambs, birch veneered doors, and clear hemlock trim. At this point, It takes alot of work to blend them in to match. What was posted about stains becoming blotchy is true.. Most home owners who know how to paint/stain will not have a problem, but the ones that don't(or think they do), will probably ruin it. I think most people fit in to the later. I don't know your skills, but this seems to be the norm for most people.
If you do decide to have it subbed out, just rember that just because the guy(gal) says they are a painter, doesn't mean the can do stain finishes. Another thing that makes a difference it how well the framing, drywall, door hanging and trim install were done. A little caulking/putty hides a multitude of sins.
I would really like to stress what others have said about being your own general contractor. If you know what you are doing, then it can work out for you, but if you don't, it can be a disaster and wind up costing you more time and money. I have been in the trades for 20+ years and I just came across a problem today when I had gutters installed on my home. I eventually made a deal with the owner of the company, but it still put stress into my day that I didn't need.
And, finding a good contractor with reputable subs is a "whole 'nother story"...
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