Is a $300 ROS really better than a $30 ROS?
mikefm101
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi
Been weighing upgrades and one area I’m lacking is sanding. Right now all I have is a $35 ROS from a big box store. Weighing the relative benefits of a new ROS or do I keep what I have and get a disk, wide belt or handheld belt sander.
The ROS is used on almost everything hence deciding whether to upgrade it versus buy a new type of machine.
I’ve read reviews here, but have never used anything fancier than what I have. Is a $300+ ROS truly a major step above? Sure I could buy a BMW, but my Toyota gets me to work just fine. Is a BMW-esque ROS truly worth the money or is it such a small difference I’d be better off using the funds for something else?
Mike
Replies
I've wondered the same thing so I'll be interested in the responses.
Also, I've read that you don't get the full benefit of an expensive ROS unless you also buy the $500 vacuum. I'd like to see comments on that as well.
Mike
I am to my second dewalt ROS (in over 20 years) and at one point bought a couple $30 ROS so we could be three sanding at once on a job where I hired help. The cheaper units have died long ago but the $90 DW still runs.
I'm assuming you are talking about Festool, because I'm not aware of other sanders in that price range.
They are better, without question. They remove material faster, and leave a surface with fewer scratches and swirls. There are countless professional reviews you can look up.
The price is 5x to 10x more. Are they that much better? No. How much better is subjective. But really, it's like everything else. A 200k car is only worth more than a new Corolla if you have the extra money, and decide that's what you want to spend it on.
I have the Ridgid 6" that was made in Germany Works fine for me.
If you are in the business, then the Festool may be better. If you are a hobby person like me, no way could I justify the Festool unit.
The main advantage of a better sander is power, most will remove wood a little faster, quality of finish, not usually that great, longevity, if you are a hobbyist using a sander a few hours a week probably not a big deal, dust collection, the Festool is known for its dust collection but there are other tools that perform well also. Keep in mind there are many tools in between your $35 tool and a $300 Festool
IMO if your sander is working I would use it until it doesn't. As to what to buy, that depends upon the work you do most often. If you do mostly small piece work some type of stationary sander might fit the bill. On the other hand, if you do a lot of casework and glue up wide panels frequently you may benefit from a quality belt sander.
Short answer, yes. Is a $300 ROS better than a sub-$100 one? Not necessarily.
First decide what you will be sanding. Your choice in a sander is not between a BMW or a Toyota; it's between a sedan or a pickup. So, decide whether your future work requires a ROS, a hand held belt, an edge belt, spindle, inflatable drum or sanding block. Once you've defined the tool or tools your future work will require, then look at what experienced woodworkers use. Look at videos. What are the teachers using? Look at completed work of other woodworkers. Can you tell the difference in the quality of the work of those who use Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita, Festool, DeWalt, Ridgid, etc.? If not, consider features that are important to you, such as ergonomics, dust collection and other collateral issues. If you're considering cordless tools, you probably want to use a single line of batteries. Ask which brand has the best batteries, or are they all the same technology? Brand selection can be an affectation, like choosing between a Ford, Chevy or Dodge pickup, or a BMW or Toyota. The first and most important step is defining the type of tool you need.
If you have a compressor that will handle it a pneumatic sander such as Dynabrade is an excellent choice. No longer made but still in my opinion the best, are the Porter Cable/ Rockwell 505 and 330, if you are on a tight budget they can be had on ebay for a bargain. For large pieces or panels the 505 is unmatched, it is heavy and very smooth. Both the 505 and 330 suffer from lack of integral dust collection, so you might have to rig something up. I set up a cheap box fan with filter taped to the face next to my work on the occasions when I use them. I have two Festool sanders( RTS 400, ETS 150) and they are good but pricey. Both Festool and Makita make a version of the half sheet 505 with dust collection, I've tried the Festool and can't recommend it, if the Makita is as well made and smooth as the old 505 it would be worth a shot. As others have pointed out there are alternatives between the two extremes.
If the question is Festool or something else, you have to look at what that $300 (+) gets you in the Festool, as others have said. It gets you:
High quality performance in terms of rate of sanding & quality of finish.
Very good dust extraction, even with a non-Festool sucker.
Relatively quiet with low vibration.
Effective accessories not available for most sanders, such as the three pads of soft, medium and hard backing for sanding different kinds of surfaces, curved to dead flat.
A resilient build that will probably last decades if the machine isn't abused.
High resale value should you ever need or want to sell it.
Repairability via Festool Service, to a very good condition + 6 month guarantee.
I know all this because I have two Festool sanders. The 6" RO recently conked out after 21 years of working (but only with me, a hobbyist). It must have done hundreds if not thousands of hours, nevertheless. It was fully repaired for £114, including a new motor and various less major replacements. It now works "like new".
Lataxe
PS I should just mention that a plane is rather more efficient at removing material fast, flattening large areas and so forth. Mind, you have to pay $300 (+) for a good one. And you might still need an RO for those nasty timbers that tear out no matter how you plane them. :-)
Thanks....original poster here.
I didn’t want to name brands just as it was less a vendor A vs vendor B question, but it was actually a Bosch ROS I was thinking of. The Festools are tempting but I’ve yet to be let down by a Bosch tool and nobody has ever said anything about them that makes them obviously inferior.
Reviews on the Bosch and Amazon sites have a few making a move like me. My work is mostly increasingly finer cabinetry for the house, and hand planes and scrapers have their place but a ROS gets used all the time.
I have a PC 333 but the belt slips all the time and I’ve changed it enough I can do it blindfolded. I picked up a $40 ROS when we were sanding down the old finish on the ceiling of our porch.
I’m leaning toward an upgrade. Whichever brand it is I’ll have for life anyway so might as well enjoy it.
Mike
If you're not adverse to paying the premium for festool, you might want to take a serious look at a Rotex, rather than just a ROS. They can do so much more than a simple ROS: exceptional speed when doing bulk removal (eg removing finish), and can be used for polishing as well.
But once again, it's a matter of understanding what you need your particular tool to do, and then finding the best tool to accomplish that job.
I have Festool, Rigid and several others (that I’ve given away). RO is my least favorite final surface. I prefer planing and scraping. I’m as likely to pick up my Rigid as I am my Festool. I see little difference in sander performance-more in the quality of the sandpaper I choose. Most sanders mentioned do an acceptable job of surface preparation. The key, as far as I am concerned, is a sander that can be attached to a vacuum, then using a vacuum with your sander. First, your sandpaper will last longer. Second, your shop will stay cleaner. Finally, and most importantly, you won’t die from inhaling noxious, often toxic wood dust. I’m asthmatic but love my woodwork, so I forked over the $$ for a fancy hepa filtered vac. Most big box stores offer a hepa filter for their vacs. Bottom line from my perspective is use any sander that works with a vacuum and take care of your lungs.
The point about dust extraction capability of the sander is a very pertinent point. Many RO sanders come with a built-on filter "box" of some sort, often with a connection to the sander that prevents the attachment of a standard (or any) round dust extractor hose.
The built-on filters don't work very well as they rely on the sander throwing the dust into them rather than it being sucked out. In addition, the connectors are often proprietary odd-shaped connections that'll have you bodging up some sort of square-to-round connector in attempting to attach a dust sucker hose.
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If you want a versatile RO fit for fine cabinet work of every kind, an RO that can take different backing pads is a worthy attribute. Soft for curves, hard for flat. Most RO sanders lack support for different pad types. They tend to sport a compromise pad - not truly hard but not that soft that they can sand significant curves. Used incautiously, they can easily round over edges or other parts you want to stay flat, as the slightly soft pad gives a little when you press down too much.
On the other hand, adept use of an RO (no heavy pressing down, let the sander's own weight do the job) will avoid that potential rounded-edge issue.
Lataxe
RE Dust: Agree with dust from sanding being a problem. I have vacuums attached to just about everything but it still is everywhere. I am trying to do anything but final hand finish sanding outside.
Great points. I’d not considered paper life with the vac being extended.
That PC333 I have a vac attachment for. The other one I don’t and mostly just use it outside. Last night I took the collection box off the sander and the port leading into it was completely clogged with dust. The collection canister was almost empty despite an hour of sanding the day before. Fortunately outside.
I use a 25 year old Sears shop vac that seems to work but maybe I need to start a “is a $500 vac really better than a $50 vac?” Thread :-)
Mike
The Festool ETS125 and dust extractor has revolutionized my sanding.
Don't know what model Bosch you were looking at but I paid ~$140 for my Bosch 3725DEVS. Dust is nil when used with a vac system.
I recently bought a Festool ETS 125 ROS, but it's also the one that allows you to turn off the random orbit and just use it as rotating sander. That allows me to not use a belt sander when I need to take a lot off. Belt sanders are hard to control and dusty, IMO. This is a great tool. One of its hallmarks is that it can hog off a lot in a short time w/o being a beast - very smooth and controllable, if a little on the heavy side. At the same time, you can do as well as any other sander at least with 400 grit fine sanding. I don't use it for polishing, but I understand it was originally designed for just that for automobile manufacturers.
Still, I held on to my PC ROS, which I can control in my palm (the Festool is definitely a two-hander) and use for finer work. I like using it with 220 and up mesh sanding discs, as the dust pickup is great.
I would never use a sander w/o a vac anyway, so no matter what, that's feature I want. And Festool's stuff is great for dust control.
Still, if I could only have one sander, it would be the Festool.
There is some bad information in this thread and there's a lot of missing information.
The short answer is a home depot RO sander and a true dual action sander are very different tools.
Let me just clear up a couple of things. First, Festool is not the the only good sander out there, nor is it the best. Both Makita (BO6050) and Bosch (1250DEVS) have been in production for at least 15-20 years.
I bought the Makita in 2002 and used it heavily for 10 years. I was working on boats at the time and used it for everything from fine sanding gelcoat to grinding fiberglass. It was a beast that is probably still working, but it was stolen in 2012.
I replaced it with the bosch which is equally impressive. A guy I worked with had the 5" and 6" festool. The motor burned out on one and the selector switch stopped working on the other. Festool is consistently overrated overpriced garbage as far as I'm concerned. I've had the bosch now for 8 years and, aside from replacing the pad a few times it's had no problems.
When comparing sander specs, look for stroke length (smaller is better), look for RPM range, look or sanding pad hole pattern (Guess what you're stuck with with a Festool sander - Festool paper, abranet, or 3M clean sanding discs), and look for torque specs. Based on these criteria the Bosch is probably the best.
When comparing the sanders side by side, both the Makita and Bosch have better balance and ergonomics than the Festool. Balance and ergonomics are the most underappreciated aspects of sanders. In order to keep the pad flat, the weight must be forward and the grip must naturally improve that. Festools ergonomics, from the track saw to the sanders, to the miter saw are designed for some species other than humans. I don't know, Germans maybe have different wrist joints.
How you're going to use it matters. When I'm sanding, I'm usually sanding for 10-15 hours straight. I need a sander that doesn't heat up. I need a sander that can switch from stock removal to finish sanding, and I need a sander that can take serious abuse.
Dust collection is the LEAST important factor at this level. They all have good dust collection and the differences are negligible. What's more important is that the dust collection hose doesn't drag on the workpiece and mark it up. In this regard, they all fail miserably. I've figured out how to deal with this, but it's not something the tool makers take into account.
Lastly, replacement pads, replacement power cords, and the ability to repair your tool come into play. Festool is unnecessarily expensive at every level. Makita and Bosch are both reasonably priced and easily repaired.
Are they better than a $30 ROS? Absolutely. Are they necessary? They are for me. Whether or not they are for you is up to you
Godelescher,
"There is some bad information in your post and there's a lot of missing information". (To coin your very own phrase). :-)
Festool sanders can be used with sanding discs other than Festool brand. They themselves sell intermediate velcro pads that allow dust pass-through and the use of any hole pattern you please. You can also use pass-through sanding discs such as Abranet. I haven't used Festool sanding discs since the first five I got when I bought the machine over 20 years ago.
Most Festools come with a 3 year guarantee, with free collection, fix and return should they go wrong. After that they're still repairable to a high standard, as I know having had mine repaired after it stopped working when 21 years old.
Festool dust collectors are sold with no-drag hoses these days. Most others aren't, although they're beginning to notice the need.
Most sanders have an integral power cord that requires the machine to be disassembled if you want to put a new one in. Some require they be soldered-on. Festools have plug-in power cords that can be changed in a second, especially if you have more than one Festool item, since each comes with a plug-in power cord.
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It sounds like you've never used a Festool but feel a need to denigrate a brand other than your own choice. I wouldn't dream of denigrating your own choice of Makita or Bosch since I've not used one their sanders. I have a number of other types of tool made by Makita and Bosch, all of which are very well-made, resilient and cost less that Festool equivalents. This doesn't somehow make the Festool equivalents "bad".
And all the Germans I know are human-shaped just like me and (I presume) you. They also have a rather fine engineering tradition that (amongst other things) results in a wide range of well-made and highly functional tools. I have quite a number from that range, despite their sometimes higher cost, because they all work so well and last so long.
But don't let someone else's experience and resultant knowledge interfere with your presumptuous prejudices. I know that might hurt. :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe
I have used the Festool 5" and 6" sanders. I have used the domino. I have used the TS 55 and the TS 75. I have used the Festool Router. I have used the Festool dust collector. And I have used the Kapex.
Festool has built a mythology that their tools are superior. They aren't. With the exception of the Domino, there isn't a single Festool tool that I think is worth the price. Ergonomically, the track saw, kapex, and sanders are all horrible. The motors have burned out on one of the sanders and one of the track saws, both of which were repaired by Festool, but neither of which ever functioned very well again.
My contempt for Festool is first hand, not sour grapes. I have a busy cabinet shop and all of my tools get used frequently. If someone wants to bring in their own Festool tools and use them in the shop, that's fine, but I'm not interested in paying twice the price for tools that don't hold up. Festool is fine for hobby shops, but in my 25+ years of experience of hard use, they don't hold up.
Sorry if you're offended. The emperor has no clothes.
Godel, old fellow,
The tone of your criticisms tends to portray something of an over-reaction to a price point rather than any balanced view of a tool's capabilities and worth. You say, at various points in your postings:
"Festool is consistently overrated overpriced garbage as far as I'm concerned".
Garbage?
"I need a sander that can take serious abuse".
Abuse?
"My contempt for Festool is first hand, not sour grapes".
Contempt?
These are rather emotive expressions, doncha think? And no tool should be judged on its ability to "take serious abuse". I mean, must a Festool pass your hammer-in-s0me-nails-with-it test before becoming acceptable (as well as costing only $99.99 or less)? :-)
Festool, like any manufacturer, will emit the odd tool that's less than the optimum build to it's design spec. No manufacturer can avoid some variation in quality from mass production facilities, even when they include extensive quality control and testing regimes, as Festool do.
At least Festool have extensive and effective repair facilities to back up their long guarantee, despite what you suggest. ......
So, to put it another way, it would be unwise to judge a manufacturer's whole oeuvre from a couple of examples in which a failure occurred, especially if the failure was induced by having to "take serious abuse".
In short, I think you and your experience of Festool sanders are probably poor judges, especially considering your somewhat Judge Jeffreys mode of passing judgement. (Hang 'em high").
Lataxe
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