Replies

1. 
   oldusty | Aug 21, 2007 05:32pm | #1

   Hi Mike_ ,         

      When you say top and side panel sounds like you are screwing the box / cabinet and using the Kreg jig , or is it a face frame ?

         The consistent 1/16th inch of movement is where I would start , imo that is a consistent problem .Does the piece move in the direction of the screw ?

           Also is this a finished end or a wall end ? On a wall end you can stack the top , depending on if the cabinets go to the ceiling , if so ,you may leave the box shy of the top of the face or ceiling line for scribe and fit .

                       dusty

                 

1. 
   colebearanimals | Aug 21, 2007 07:48pm | #5

   Howdy neighbor,

                   Staying busy? We are beginning to see signs of a little slow down in construction here on the coast. It's kind of a nice break actually, as long as it doesn't get to severe.

                   I'm starting a project, custom windows and doors, for a client in Williams. 14 th century French country. Very, very unique. It'll be a nice change from the boxes ( kitchens and baths ) that I've been doing lately.  Have a good one.

                                                            Paul

1. 
   oldusty | Aug 21, 2007 08:10pm | #6

   Hi Paul ,

                We had a slow year from last August until this July , I don't know why , but all heck broke loose the last month and a half and still the phone rings .

          Many builders and developers have got too much inventory of homes on hand and are scrambling to stay alive , great opportunity for buyers at this time .

      In general the new homes have slowed as sales have and foreclosures are rising .

             E mail me when you come through the valley , maybe we could meet up

                      regards          dusty

1. 
   colebearanimals | Aug 21, 2007 08:16pm | #7

   Will do,

                                          Paul

2. 
   xmike | Aug 21, 2007 11:32pm | #8

   Hi Dusty,Q - "When you say top and side panel sounds like you are screwing the box / cabinet and using the Kreg jig , or is it a face frame ?"
   A - I'm presently laying out the box/cabinet. The face frames come next.Q - "The consistent 1/16th inch of movement is where I would start , imo that is a consistent problem .Does the piece move in the direction of the screw ?"
   A - Yes. As the screw is pulled home, the side that the screw pocket is in is pulled by the screw along the other face by 1/16". Thinking about the geometry that could cause this, ...even though the intersection of the two panels is very throughly clamped together, it's as if the screw bridged a small space between the two panels, and then movement was forced as the screw was pulled tight in order to close the space and alighn the exit and entrance holes of the screw at the interface. Sorry, that makes my head hurt, too.Q - "Also is this a finished end or a wall end?"
   A - The effect occurs regardless. I do expect to need extra material on the wall ends of my face frames for scribing, and plan to leave about an extra 3/4" at each end to accommodate that requirement. Is that enough?Mike D

1. 
   oldusty | Aug 22, 2007 01:55am | #11

   Mike ,       I heard that the Kreg system may not drill the pilot holes through the work piece , and that when you drive a screw in the wood that was not drilled out can create a chunk that funkafies alignment . On this forum some of the Kreg users said they have made sure the pilot holes get drilled through to stop the problem you speak of , give it a try if that's the case .

            Sounds like when you make a face frame the pieces are flat and clamped down tight , but when you screw box parts together the clamping aspects are different , you probably use bar clamps or such for that application .

        Typically I leave 1/2" scribe on wall ends more on wall cabinet face where they go to the ceiling , maybe 3/4" . Believe it or not in some remodels I have done the wall to ceiling was out 1" so play it safe .

         dusty

1. 
   xmike | Aug 22, 2007 03:38am | #12

   Thanks Dusty,
   It's amazing how much my old brain forgets! Now I remember about being sure that the dang drill pierces both faces. Someone also suggested pre-drilling a pilot hole in the second piece by running the screwdriver backwards briefly before sinking the screw.
   I'm going to try both - couldn't hoit!By the way, I AM using bar clamps to hold the cases together on assembly. Is that wrong????? It seems like the right thing to do.Re scribing, my house is an early 50's house, and so well built that I'll bet it was square when it started out, but now that it's only 10 years younger than me, I expect some shifting has occurred. I'll plan for an inch, both sides and the top.
   Mike D

1. 
   oldusty | Aug 22, 2007 04:00am | #13

      Mike , here is the pocket hole jig I have used for about 25 years .

                  I think the movement can also be in part to imperfect end cuts even off my 12" Rockwell ras . sometimes a board has a bow or was not flat to the table when chopped .

              On rare occaison I have dry screwed to the line , backed them out , glued and re screwed or even just clamped and glued. A pocket screw and shallow dado with some glue imo would be better for the horizontal members ends .

           I think you were talking about base cabinets having a full top ,wall cabs that butt to ceiling using one piece is stronger and faster and looks better .

                          regards                dusty

   Edited 8/21/2007 10:20 pm ET by oldusty

   
2. 
   xmike | Aug 22, 2007 05:02pm | #14

   Hi Dusty,
   That's a great looking setup. Looks like you do a fair bit of production work. It also looks like the angle of your jig is closer to the plane of the panel than that of the Kreg jig. Someone has mentioned that non-kreg jigs with lower angles have less of a tendency to cause the panel to creep during assembly.You're right, I was talking about assembling base cabinets with a semi-open top. I do understand that for wall cabinets, the top of the case is very visible, and must be a solid panel.Mike

2. 
   colebearanimals | Aug 21, 2007 07:25pm | #2

   Hi MIKE,

          You don't even need a top panel. Add that after they're installed as a substrate for tile or granite. You won't need anything for high pressure laminate (Formica) as that has it's own substrate.

          If you are not in a production mode, use a few clamps to keep your panels in place until you set your screws. This will eliminate shifting.

                                                   Paul

1. 
   xmike | Aug 21, 2007 11:45pm | #9

   Hi Paul,Thanks for reminding me that the top doesn't need to be a solid piece of plywood. I've just started drawing in SketchUp, and it's so easy to draw a solid box, I got carried away. That will save me much plywood, make installation of the drawer guides much easier, and make it easier to assemble the various boxes to each other, the wall, and to the kick-panel/level-everything frame.Re clamping, while I get a tiny, ignorable amount of movement when I'm assembling face frames, when I assemble panels together, I get the consistent, always the same direction, always the same amount movement, regardless of how I clamp. Most inconsiderate of the wood gods.Mike D

3. 
   BobMc | Aug 21, 2007 07:27pm | #3

   Hey, Mike,I'm currently finishing the box assembly of 11 boxes using pocket screws.  I decided to have the top and bottoms butt to the side panels so the screws and glue would be holding more against shear than tension.  I won't know whether that was a good choice for some time (I hope a very long time). 

   As I assembled the boxes, I also would get about a 16th movement (even using the pocket pin clamp), as well as finding my box diagonals about 1/16 to 1/8" difference (two sizes of boxes, with 50" & 55" diagonals).  The cuts are not the problem; it seems to be in the geometry of the pocket screw system.

   I went to Rockler to get a few of their Clamp-It squares to try to minimize the problem.  One of the clerks told me that one thing that helps to alleviate the movement problem is to run the screwdriver in reverse for a moment while seating the screw.  The self-tapping screw will drill part way into the mating piece, and will not tend to displace as much.  I tried that technique, and it seemed to help some.

   My final assembly procedure (after seeing the problem): apply glue to the top piece, brad nail the sides to the top in about three (3) spots on each side, lather, rinse, repeat for the bottom piece.  Equalize the diagonals, and put the Clamp-It squares in corners. Check the diagonals.  Put a face clamp (the one with a big disk and a little disk) on the upper corner to keep the corner of the top (or bottom) from moving inward when screwed. Put the pin clamp (or whatever they're called—it has a disk on one jaw, and a pin on the other) in the second hole from the top, and put a screw into the top hole (reverse first, then forward).  Use the pin clamp in the second hole from the bottom, and fix the bottom screw. Then finish any other holes.  I do the opposite side of the same piece, and then repeat for the bottom panel. 

   The panel edges along the joints now align within a 64th, which is an improvement over not using the brads, clamps, etc.  However, I was unable consistently to hold the diagonals’ difference to a reasonable approximation of zero, still varying up to 1/8”.  I decided that the diagonal problem is not my fault, and decided to blame it on Coriolis Effect, or Chinese plywood (3/4” 13 ply), or TiteBond II--anything but me.

    The box panels are long enough, that when I apply the backs, everything should come back to square.  I figure an 8th on 40 inches is one part in 320, which is probably close enough for garage cabinets. While I hope this may be helpful to you, I also hope that if anyone has a procedure that works better, or could suggest why I cannot keep the diagonals equal will inform us both. Or, maybe the answer is that 90 +/- 0.3 degrees is about as good as it gets on sheet goods.

   Bob  

    

4. 
   RonRocheleau | Aug 21, 2007 07:35pm | #4

   Mike,

   There should be no movement at all when screwing the cab parts together.  Do you have the right angle clamps that have one end that goes into a pocket hole and the other pulls the other piece tight? I generally use 2 of those clamps when screwing together cases and have no movement at all. 

   Here's a link to the clamp on amazon:

   http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-RAC-Right-Angle-Clamp/dp/B00009OLD3/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5465841-8821564?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1187714059&sr=8-1 

   Hope that helps.

    

1. 
   xmike | Aug 21, 2007 11:48pm | #10

   I have one of those "fit-in-the-pocket" on one side, "flat-against-the-face" on the other side clamps. Two does sound better than one - I'll add another to my kit and see if that improves things.
   Mike D