We use our 1 car garage for a woodshop. It’s used several times a month and not as a business. There’s an assortment of tools, wood, supplies etc. Table saw, planer, lathe, drill press, yada yada. You get the idea. A neighbor reported us for having a garage conversion because we’re having a street parking dispute with her. It’s not about noise or anything else. We have several cars (with permits) parked on the street. I live in California. What do you know about this? They are coming next week to do an “investigation.” Before I go crazy and start moving things around, does anyone know what the law is? I think you have to be able to park a car in the garage and then you can store (as long as there’s not a fire hazard) or do hobbies, crafts or whatever the heck else you want. I’m debating leaving it the way it is, or possibly moving all the tools to one side and creating a space to show a car can be parked there. Any thoughts or information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Eef
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Replies
Who can say what your local zoning laws say? We don't even know where you live. I can't imagine a hobby type woodworking shop being illegal if you have a house and garage.
Your refering to local zoning stuff. WHo knows.. The cops will figure it out soon enough! In my town there is no parking allowed on ANY street between 12 AM and 5 AM. Basicly no parking over night in the street. Personally I like that ordanance, Keeps the streets from being over run. I have never heard of an ordance prohibiting parking in the drive way. I'd say that if your cars dont fit in the drive way, there is only one solutuion.......... get rid of some cars! Certinatly not the tools. Ha ha
Mike
I would recommend that the garage still have the ability for you to park a car in it. It should not be viewed as an illegal conversion if there are no beds parked in there and you have a working garage door, ability to park a vehicle in the garage. Just look around for what may appear as a code violations - I am sure these will not be regular cops but zoning or building code enforcement people - with all that advance warning. Finally, keep your shop closed and tell them to get a warrant if they want a peek inside - this is still America and the 4th Amendment should still mean somthing.
this is still America and the 4th Amendment should still mean somthing
Tell that to the folks in NYC, who are "randomly" having their bags searched, without probable cause, nor even reasonable suspicion.
I think the 4th Amendment has essentially been revoked, but no one wants to admit it.
The 4th has been revoked here in CA as well. The State can sieze your property, sell it, and keep the money - even if they do not obtain a conviction. I guess "due process" doesn't mean what I thought it meant..."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
You people are crazy. :-) Move to a calm lake in the woods where you can do what you want, when you want, and how you want. Don't even lock doors because everyone trusts everyone and looks out for you against "strangers". Build your own house. No inspections. Build your own shop. No worries. Fish, hunt, and woodwork. Do you really want to live in CA? :-)
CA is a nice place to visit but....
:-)
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Nah,
That won't do treehouse, too many cows and I don't like their smell.
Besides, we Ski in the Sierras, fish in the ocean, produce your food in the Central Valley.
No ice storms over here and we dry our lumber in one summer.
Finally, if you bought your house here 15 years ago, you can sell it today and buy the whole lake, with it's woods in Arkansas.
Edited 7/24/2005 12:05 pm ET by Willie Martins
Crazy - Absolutely Crazy. Everyone knows that cars should be kept in garages. Last year, the guy across the street from me had his Toyota truck burn to the ground in the middle of the night due to a short under his dash. The sound of the tires exploding woke the whole neighborhood. Good thing it was parked in his driveway rather than his garage. He could have been killed.
Besides that, if the woodworking machinery was outside, the rats could get into the sawdust and get cancer. Then the homeowner would be jailed for endangering the lives of those poor defenseless rats. Crazy, just crazy.
Steve
"....Besides that, if the woodworking machinery was outside, the rats could get into the sawdust and get cancer. Then the homeowner would be jailed for endangering the lives of those poor defenseless rats. Crazy, just crazy......"
Man, that is hillarious. I just spit my beer all over the computer. Too bad it's probably true in Cali.
Whats the most hillarious is the fact that California is truly a paradox (catch22)
Are you nuts? Maybe if we had a search policy like that on sept 11, 3000+ would still be here. Maybe if <!----><!----><!---->London<!----><!----> was more proactive prior to 7-7, they would have found the bombers before they could kill anyone. Every time you go into a court house, federal building, prison/jail, etc they will search all your bags and have you walk through a metal detector. It is not a violation of your fourth amendment rights that is "unreasonable" searches and seizures. I don't think public safety is unreasonable. Would you feel comfortable getting on a plane, bus or train with 5 Arab looking men carrying backpacks?<!----><!---->
Maybe you shouldn't have so much Kool Aid at the local ACLU meeting. In case you haven't noticed radical Muslim’s have declared war against the "infidel's and non believer's"<!---->
Edited 7/24/2005 9:15 pm ET by DDay
Whoa, hold it there DDay,
While we have to give up certain privacy rights to use mass transit or access the halls of justice, there is no justification to abrogate our rights here in our home workshops. Keep the fighting terrorists justification for public forms, not private homes.
Nuts? Hardly.
This isn't going to a courthouse or an airport. For most people, these are "special" occasions, and someone seeing to it that their belongings are "super clean" above reproach for such occasions is not overly onerous.
In contrast, it is impossible to live in NYC without availling oneself of the public transportation system. And saying you can be stopped at anytime by government law enforcement agents in such public places to demand inspection of your person, your belongings and your papers to see if they appear to contain anything illegal sounds an awful lot like the "let me see your papers" scenarios we all used to ridicule in dictatorships. A few key points:
--These "inspections" are not just for terrorism-related items. Officials in NYC have stated emphatically that if anything else suspcious is found in these searches, it will be acted upon. Imagine you're just going to work one morning, you get stopped and searched and, guess what?, the name on your prescription bottle of Oxycontin doesn't match your maiden on your drivers' license. You spend the next 2 hours in some room being questioned.
--It won't work. First off, they're not doing 100% searches, because they can't. It won't take long before the bad guys figure out how to "game" the system to get around it. I'm a very frequent airline traveler, and this reminds me of back when the TSA was doing "random" secondary searches at boarding gates. It didn't take long before the internet frequent flyer community was awash with strategies on how to play "the game" and avoid the inspections: where to stand when, what to look for, how to act, etc. It became a badge of honor to those of us that managed to avoid the searches on dozens of consecutive flight.
It also won't work because it creates a "choke point" where people congregate. Terrorists really don't care if they kill 20 people on a subway car, or 20 people in a crowded subway lobby. Or some other place: by their nature, cities are filled with places where there are groups of people crowded in a small area. Don't believe me?, ask an Israeli.
The awful realty is that suicide bombs are the "ultimate smart bomb". You can't defend against them, if they are in your midst. The Israelis know where theirs were coming from, and are building a fence to keep them out. For some bizarre reason, the British have been extremely tolerant of those that incite such behavior, and have paid the price.
--The worst part is that the authorities promulgating these searches know it won't work. You can read this between the lines of the press releases: one stated objective is to "assure the public of the safety of the system". In other words, "hey, we know this does nothing to increase security, they could still blow up a bunch of people right outside the checkpoint, or board the system at the Far Rockaway station at 5 AM before we have the checkpoints set up. But we're trying to fool the public into thinking they're safer so that they still go to work every morning".
--So OK, maybe I'm nuts to lament fundamental civil rights being flushed down the toilet for a feel-good measure that will do nothing to improve security. If you think it's a good idea, fine, but don't pretend it doesn't represent a serious reduction of the liberties we used to depend on.
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security - Benjamin Franklin
In this age of nagging and nannyism; untalented and powerless people have been empowered to be masters of all they survey through the use of homeowners associations etc., to lord it over those who have the initiative and skill to do something constructive. Screw 'em! I live in a part of Illinois that has 25% unemployment. Most of the unemployed are stealing or making meth. I do woodworking in the garage and there is room for a car. I have to move each machine to use it and I don't run anything late at night or too early in the morning. If my neighbors want to give me a ration of bs about it I will find a legal way to piss in their cornflakes. (like are there any obvious code violations on their property?) This type of person is usually living in a glass house and they think their #&$% doesn't stink. Don't get mad; GET EVEN!
There no state law in California against having woodworking tools in your gargage. Your local ordinances and/or HomeOwners' Associatio CC&R's might be something else. You live there; we don't; there's no way we can know what they are, and a homeowner shoulf find this out before signing the papers.
At my vacation place, on-street parking is a no-no, per the CC&R's.
I lived in a suburb of LA for about 6 years. Did woodworking 2 of those years until the neighbor reported me (I was using a converted garage-listed as a "utility room"). Local officals came around, determined that I wasn't allowed to do that. I never exceeded local noise ordinances (I checked), never sold anything, or had any clients around. The difference between me in my "utility room" and the neighbor across the street (who was a local contractor) and often used his driveway as a workshop, was that mine was enclosed. Enclosing it put it into another category. I stopped woodworking for a year before I found a shop to rent. Local officials can do anything they want. I'm not bitter, it was a hard lesson in it's "who you know, not what you know". Glad I'm out of that state. Good luck.
I've known folks who filed grievances with the sheriff against their neighbors for leaving their cars parked in the driveway instead of the garage! They claimed it made the area look cluttered, and implied there was indeed a restriction against it. Same guy would walk around his neighborhood picking up peoples thrown newspaper and depositing it in their trashcan! Glad he didn't share my subdivision!
If, as your note implies, you can shift your machines to one side and squeeze a car in there, by all means, you should make that show of faith for the inspection! Doesn't mean you have to ever do it a second time. Folks who act so self-centered can't be reasoned with .... one must be content to humor them occasionally to keep the piece, lest they go "postal" on ya.
John
I just wanted to add that if electricity is altered such as adding new wiring, new connections and increased voltage, etc., it ha to b done by permit. You have to have clearance around the water heater of so many feet, have it up off the floor, common code violations. I'd research your local building and zoning codes. The best thing is be proactive - before they inspect, call them, explain your situation and get informed so you know your rights.
is it legal to use your kitchen as a bakery? Of course the answer to your question is yes, you can do whatever you want in your own home in a nonbusiness sense like that. Some neighbors just like to prove their points in ways we dont understand. Dont move anything.
When I lived in Calif (Norther Bay Area) and was a building inspector for a couple of years (mid 80's) there were local zoning laws that required one to have "covered off-street parking". As others have pointed out, you may also have stipulations in your CCR's that require something more restrictive. Sounds like you may well have to show that you can provide the covered off street parking. You may have to leave enough space in the garage to park a car.
Check with the building department or zoning by giving them a call and asking. They ususally know about the requirements for your particular area.
Where are you in CA?
I'm in San Jose and (as far as I know) there's no requirement that the garage actually be used for parking cars. If there is, the code enforcement people could solve the city's budget woes in a few weeks since about half the garages are used for shops or just general storage. Sometimes I wonder why the "stuff" doesn't just spill out into the driveway when the garage door is opened. - lol
If you live in a neighborhood with CCR's that forbid parking in the driveway or on the street, you may have an issue with the homeowners association, but I doubt if the city would get involved.
If I were you, I would call the city code enforcement office before the inspector shows up and just ask what the rules are.
Edited 7/23/2005 11:06 am ET by Dave
It isn't call the Left Coast for nothing. I am about to move near the Right Coast (Washington DC area) which may be even further to the left. I am glad I read your message. I'll need to check for bad restrictions in the areas where I am looking at for a house.
It could be a violation. You're about to find out. It would be a mistake to try to hide all your tools. Listed to what the inspector has to say and obey the law.
Obedience to the law is liberty.
I was born & raised in California- When it became to crappy to live in, I left- My advice would be to follow suit-
Please do - it's too crowded here now!
It does depend on where you live and the local laws!
Some of them are strange. Well to me anyway. A local city in the neighboring county is going through changes.of their ordinances regarding what you can or cannot do with your house. And it's all about what it looks like to the neighbors. They already have laws effecting commercial businesses' like, What size and color the business sign is. (Imagine a BP gas station without it's bright green sign and you get the gist.) They even have a law governing how long your garage door can be open.
When I had a house in Midtown, the neighbors were always calling the local code enforcement on me thinking I was running a business out of my house cause I would be in my front room running a tablesaw or router with the front doors wide open. It took some doin to assure the C.E. people that I was working on the house because they knew I am a carpenter by trade. OK, I can understand the neighbors did not like it cause it was seven or eight in the evening and they were trying to enjoy the evening on their front porches. The bad part was the old couple that did the most complaining were the ones I had helped fix some things around their house. Some people. Go figure. All the time I was working on the my house.
Now I am in another county, out in the country and do not really have any neighbors.
Very peaceful
Jack
Edited 7/23/2005 7:32 pm ET by JackWoody
Hey there eef,
When I lived in Canada more than a decade ago I made my living out of my little home shop mostly building outdoor furniture from cedar that I could easily cut off my own land. One day the CRD (capital regional district), the Candian version of the gremlins that will visit you, showed up and put a great big sticker on my door and said I couldn't work in my own shop anymore. To make a long story short they wanted to fine me and cause all kinds of problems, so rather than buy into their stupid game I sold the house and moved to Mexico!!!!
It makes no good sense to me that we have lost these basic freedoms to try and earn an honest living with whatever means you have available to you. Not everybody can afford a high tech settup with all the bells and whistles (my shop was in an old barn) and it's getting harder and harder every year to try and keep up with all the laws that are imposed on us. My brother in law in Canada is a carpenter and they make him jump through all the hoops, he's talked about coming down here he's so fed up.
I hope it all works out but if it doesn't I could always use another hand down here.
Good Luck,
Brian
Brian,
I guess it's a bit of the one and a bit of the other.
I helped a friend with some woodwork in renovating his beach front vacation home in Mexico. Made him a solid Teak front door, we hung it the evening, locked up, came back the next morning and it was gone.
I'll stay in my gated community in Central California, working behind closed doors of my three car garage, thank you.
Willie,
I don't know where your friend has his beach house but it sounds like he should have chosen his real estate more wisely. I can certainly appreciate your paranoia, many people have this erroneous concept of Mexico. I have lived here for 10 years, never lock my car, front door always open, and the locals are really neibourly. The only intruders I've had come buy to leave me a few jars of mango chutney in the kitchen. The last time I got stolen from was when I took a road trip back to Canada, first night in Vancouver, and they emptied my camper of everything!! Makes me feel a lot safer down here in good ol Mexico. I guess yours is the exception to the rule.
I hope your "neibours" LET you keep enjoying your hobby in that really safe gated community.
I could use a teak door if you want to come down:)
Brian
It's completely up to the local jurisdiction. In my city in CA we need to have the space but are not required to actually use it for cars - probably a third of the houses in the area have so much crap in their garages they can barely walk through much less put a car or two in there. The BI came by to check on the reno while I was running the DC and TS. Stopped the equipment, shot the breeze, he signed off and left (nice guy!!). Now, all the wiring in the "garage", including the new 100A sub-panel, 2 - 240V and 3 - 120V circuits are all inspected and approved, and if I have to I can pull up the wood floor and roll the tools out the door.
I do have lots of insulation, and do try to keep doors & windows closed when running the power tools "off hours". I've also tried to stay on good terms with all the neighbors.
Hope it works out for you!
There are several types of local codes that may apply to your situation. I didn't notice, are you in a condominium or other heavily regulated community? The covenent police are going to use the association declarations that you received when you bought or rented your place. The local municipality is going to use a code or ordinance that may be available on line.
One area of concern may be a local requirement that you maintain a certain number of parking spaces on your lot. Another is an assumption that with that meny tools, you must be running a business, after all, who but a professional would have so many nice power tools?
Good luck. It shouldn'g be too difficult to resolve the situation.
I live in SoCal and have lived here most of my life. Other than gated communities w/H O associations their shouldnt be a problem. I know local codes dont allow businesses to be run out of garages ect. I have a pal full time contractor who does work out of his garage (complete woodshop), a neighbor called the code enforcement on him he said it was a hobby shop. They couldnt prove other and have since left him alone. I do w/wing in my shop also havent lately cuz its been so hot but I do it. No problems. Savaging the entire liberal media
I'm sympathetic to your situation. I live in SE Pa and whenever I've had an issue like this, I've simply called the town hall and spoken to the administrative staff. These ladies (and they are all female and in the job for 10+ years) know the local ins and outs- what is a zoning problem, and what is not, when you will need a building permit and inspection and when you don't. It saves a lot of time and lawyer's fees. It helps to be direct, but polite, and even more so if you go in person.
I'm not as down on some local zoning rules as others seem to be. Certainly, people can file frivolous complaints, or use them for spite, but it can cut the other way as well. Some individuals think of their homes as independent countries, and do all kinds of outrageous things- raising livestock, running motorcycle repair shops and setting up rifle ranges. Their attitude is "it's my place, I can do whatever I want, whenver I want".
One thing that I've found is that working with the neighbors (if possible) is almost always easier than being confrontational. In my town, it is pretty much a given that if you want a zoning variance (i.e. permission to do something outside the zoning regs), your neighbors need to be at least neutral. If your neighbors don't object, it will very likely be given.
There are other ways to make a point, as well. An example: my sister owns a summer home up on Cape Cod. Last year, a guy bought the hose next door and started renovating it- pretty much being a full fledged jerk about the way he went about it (he's apparently a very wealthy lawyer). The last straw is that parked his boat and trailer right on (and I mean within 4 inches of) the property line- after having moved his driveway and a private road, giving my sister and her family an unobstructed living room view of the SS Obnoxious. So... this 4th of July while I was up visiting her on the Cape, I suggested that we buy some fast growing evergreens to plant on the property line and screen the boat from view. One of the advantages of being a WWr is that I know something about trees. We went to a local nursery and asked for a particularly rapid growing and vigorous cypress to plant. The tree has only one fault: it weeps a lot of thick, black-brown, pitch-like sap, especially in the spring. I think her neighbor will be moving his boat in about 6 months...
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Cypress trees; That was brilliant. I laughed my butt off after I read that. Your a good brother.
Cheers. Walker1
Hmmm...The guy up the street is a self-employed builder. . . .his garage is full of equipment. . . ..that planer sure gets loud sometimes. . .parks his trailer in his driveway. . . I wonder what it's worth to him to keep The Man from dropping in for an inspection. . . ;-)
As several have posted, it is a matter you will have to look into further.
If you have a homeowners' association, get a copy of the recorded "restrictive covenants", which are association rules that apply to anyone who buys in that development. They may require garages to remain garages, or for cars to be in the garage, or for garages to not be converted, etc.. They can be picky and intrude on rights (tell you the color of your house, where trees must be planted, etc.) because .... "if you didn't like the rule, you shouldn't have bought in this development!" Association rules are not subject to the same reasonableness constraints as laws, because you are supposed to know the rules before you buy. If you can find out who your association president it, ring him/her up and start a friendly conversation and ask for a copy of the rules - they have them for distribution.
But, you should also look into local ordinances, which are laws by your city / county. They are typically on the web these days. State and federal laws are separate still, but I doubt you would find a state or federal law prohibiting you from woodworking in your own house.
If you sell anything, you likely need an occupational license, and possibly insurance, so be prepared to address that you are merely a hobiest who is improving your own home. Also, be aware that renovations had to be permitted.
Generally there are privacy rights tied to conduct within a home, and (I believe) California is one of the states that has a specific right of privacy within its constitution. Your garage is part of your home and generally you have a right to "pursue happiness" there in whatever wierd but harmless way that may be. Your privacy ends where it intrudes on others' rights to enjoy their property, drive in the street, hear their t.v., etc.. Final word - speak to the neighbor that is complaining if you can stomach to do so. It sounds pie in the sky, but often conflict is avoided when people communicate. They may be retaliating against you for something you did not even know you did.
Good luck with this -
I just gotta add my two bits. After 8 years of working out of my garage, the bylaw folks shut me down. Now I work elsewhere.in 8 years, I never had one complaint from my neighbours. Since I moved work activities to other environs, now I got PO'd neighbours who cannot wander over on saturdays and borrow tools for the weekend (cause the tools nor I ain't here) . I've had move complaints from PO'd neighbours in the last two months than I've had in the last 8 years. And some of em are quite cognizant of the fact that when someone is working out of their garage, they watch who's coming and going during the day too, so provide a defacto neighbourhood survellance system to boot. On the evening they passed the local noise bylaw, I walked out to my front porch with my noise meter, and measured the noise, at 8pm from the local expressway. It surpassed the maximum allowed level. I could be fined for violating it, but meanwhile had to live and pay taxes in an environment which surpassed allowable levels. Sorry folks, no longer able to lend tools or help my neighbours, and it ain't my fault. Eric
Go to http://www.findlaw.com and research the California statutes. You may find local city/county decisions and/or ordinances.
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