Is my local home center wrong, or am I??
All right,
About two weeks ago I drove to my local home center to purchase a 12″ miter saw. I shan’t give you the name of this home center for argument’s sake, but believe me I’m sure you’ve heard of it or probably already shop there. Anyway, in the power tool section I noticed a DeWalt 12″ compound saw for about $300. Sounded like a good deal to me, so I bought the saw and have been very happy with it since.
It just so happens that yesterday I was back in the store (the regular customer that I am) and noticed something interesting. It looked as though the store had stocked up on the 12″ DeWalt compound miter saws (the same one I bought) and had even made a stack-out display of it. But now, attached to each of the boxes, was a small rebate offer from DeWalt. It says, that if you send them the UPC off the box along with a copy of your receipt, DeWalt will send you a $50 store credit (good only at our unmentioned home center). Only thing is, the saw purchase must have taken place after Oct. 1st. I bought mine on Sept. 25th.
Ok. I was about a week too early on the scene, but wanted to know if I could still take advantage of this offer. Now, this particular retailer has a policy that if you purchase something and it goes on sale within 30 days, they will credit you the difference of your paid price and the new sale price. That being said, I hoped the store would do something similar in fashion so that I would receive the $50 store credit. I spoke with the manager, and he suggested that I take the receipt back to the return desk and have them issue me a new receipt with the current, and most importantly, post Oct. 1st date. I then reminded him that one must also send in the UPC symbol from the box to get the credit, and I had long thrown my original box away, completely unaware of the rebate offer that was less than a week away. He then suggested I remove a UPC label from one of the boxes on the sales floor, but then quickly recanted, saying it would not be fair to the person who gets stuck with that particular box. I agree with that. He went on to say that it is DeWalt who is sponsoring the offer, not his store. That was about all he had to say on the matter. In his opinion, It was just one of those things. He couldn’t help me any further.
I reminded him that the gift card DeWalt is sending back on rebate is good ONLY at this particular national home center, and therefore the sponsoring was actually being done by both parties, technically. Still he said there was nothing he could do.
I asked what if I bought another power tool, better yet a DeWalt power tool, say one for $150, would he extend me a $50 credit on that tool. I even offered to give him my original miter saw receipt so I wouldn’t be able to use the same argument at another store. He smiled a bit but said there was nothing he could do.
OK, here’s where I’m not sure of myself. Not to sound nickel & dimey, but fifty bucks is fifty bucks. It means a significant upgrade for many power tools, or even a new power tool all together. I wanted that store credit – I pressed on……
I reminded him that I still had my receipt, and that under the store’s own return policy, I am entitled to return any item within 90 days if I am not completely satisfied, and for whatever reason. I reminded him that all I have to do is return the saw, get my cash back, come back in an hour and buy another saw therefore entitling me to the gift card offer. I also mentioned that he would be stuck with a slightly used saw, and he would not receive a vendor credit from DeWalt because the saw is not defective in any way, just used a little. The home center may not sell the used saw for the same price as a new one, and will have to incur a markdown on the saw. (Probably a $50 markdown, ironically).
He smiled (reluctantly I could tell) and said “well I suppose you could do that, but you know its not the right thing to do. You were too early for the offer. Its just one of those things.” He smiled again and said nothing more.
SO, WHAT WOULD YOU DO??? AM I BEING TOO CHEAP??? WOULD YOU EXCHANGE THE SAW AND COLLECT THE $50??? PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK.
Edited 10/10/2002 1:05:45 AM ET by JOSEPH
Replies
Joseph: if it was me I would take the saw back in a heart beat, and no your not being cheap..Your a regular customer there and you deserve the $50.00,and thats the bottom line..Hey they have people who buy tools, use them and return them and get there money back all the time, thats where most of those Refurb tools come from.. the manager should of just issued you the money..
ToolDoc
Joseph -
I would have thought the manager would have simply handed you a $50 bill just to get you off his back (grin)
But seriously ... what's your time worth? You pack up the saw, drag it down to the store, turn it in, then hang out for an hour, go buy another one.... then drive home. How long does all this take? An hour? More than an hour?
How much this is worth is something only you can answer. If you live next door to the store maybe it's worth it. If not, I'd forget it.
That's just my view, though.....
[email protected]
If you're comfortable with returning the saw for another, go for it. If the store has an unconditional return policy, that's their policy, not yours.
Joseph,
If it bothers you now, it will bother you even more afterward should you decide to follow through. You have something called a conscience that is trying to tell you that this is wrong.
Jeff
If you still had your UPC you would probably be in luck. You may even try sending in your receipt without the UPC and a note attached explaining the situation and see what happens. If that fails I would forget it and go on. LIke they said above time is money.
Good luck BT
Joseph , You missed the boat! Do what's right. You said in your post that you were completely satisfied with the saw. If you take it back and say you were returning because you were not completely satisfied -- You're lying somewhere. Is your integrity worth 50 bucks. I would hope its worth more. Don't comprimise your integrity for such a pittance. Take your medicine like a big boy. You were late that's a fact. Dewalt is the sponsor Technically. The store would loose money. You know who they turn their losses over to? Their customers! I and others don't want to pay for others lack of integrity. Keep the saw and enjoy it. Lecture Over. Have a nice day. jmho Rick W.
Edited 10/10/2002 9:45:51 AM ET by Rick
Rick,
I agree with you 100%! We buy based on need and when we see a solution that matches that need ... we go analyze the benefits, do a comparative analysis and make a purchase decision.
The process of buying a tool is an interesting one. I love the "price-benefit-value relationship" stage, myself. Divide the benefits into the price and if it comes out in your favor make the purchase.
Timing has nothing to do with it. It is need and the decision one makes. Sale periods are just that. If we are too early or too late - too bad!
Honesty and integrity can be tested by rebates and sale offers, but they (honesty and integrity) shall always prevail.
Benjamin
Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I don't see a completely satisfied customer. I don't see the ethical issue with being more satisfied. If the two saws were sitting on the shelf with $50 dollars difference in price would it be unethical to select the one that was cheaper...even though your needs would have been satisfied with the higher price solution?
What we have is a business glitch in the pricing sturcture. The Big Box store can't integrate with the manufactures discounts...that ain't your problem! When you send in the receipt and the UPC this goes to a third party processing center and the check/voucher is issued. A voucher which you have to use at the Big Box store?..or with the Manufacturer?...either way this increases revenues for someone and profits....
It seems to me the risk is that the saws feelings will suffer....
If the stores weren't stuck with all these silly consumer games that have arisen from our brain dead shopper's mentality, imagine how inexpensive our tools would be and how much more time we would have for woodworking!
Joseph,
Since you not so subtly hinted that this is a national "center", I am going to make up my mind as to which one that could be and that affects my response. If it's one of the two that I'm thinking of you should do this: Go ahead and return your saw, head over to the magazine section peruse for an hour about your upcoming projects or bathroom remodel, then trot over and buy another saw with the rebate. The stores I have in mind have screwed more good people out of business than any of us could count on all our remaining fingers and toes. If this was a store that really was devoted to customer service (as their ads mislead some into thinking) they would have figured out how to get you your $50, or hired someone intelligent enough to figure it out. But they didn't and they don't so go ahead, bilk their system. Any good consumer driven store should and usually would honor your request. Best of luck!
Erich
Sorry Erich but I must disagree with your statement that a legitimate retailer has "screwed more good people out of business." If that were the case, they wouldn't be in business. Are mistakes made? Absolutely! When brought to the attention of the store are they fixed? Nearly everytime. When they're not fixed, there are avenues of recourse consumers can take. The law and consumer advocates insure that, if you've had a bad experience, you should give the offending party a chance so they can attempt to fix it, not bad mouth them to everyone else. Would you want that done to your business? I think you'd rather have a chance to make it right.
On the subject of the rebate, the right thing to do is to write the manufacturer first and explain the situation. Include your serial number, they can track the vendor with that, and a polite letter and they'll probably offer you something if not the full rebate.
As far as returning the saw and then rebuying it in order to get the rebate, while that is something the store's policy, technically, will allow you to do, I have to ask the question differently. If you brought the saw back, because there was a recall or something wrong with it and found that the price had gone up, would you allow them to charge you the additional $50 or demand an even swap? Most of us would answer an even swap. I don't think it's right to expect to be able to have it both ways.
Just my .02! I could be wrong.
Kell
P.S. Yes, I've worked in retail for over 25 years although not home improvement.
Kell,
Thanks for your polite disagreement with me here, I appreciate the debate. I think you mis-understood me. When I said that these store have "screwed more good people out of business," I wasn't talking about customers, I was talking about all the other lumber yards and tool stores that DO have the consumer at heart and WOULD take almost any measure necessary to fix a dispute with a customer (it soudns like you may work at a retail store like that). I totally agree with Don, different kind of store, different expectation. That's why I started my post saying that I'm assuming it's one of two places, and that that affected my opinion.
Mom and Pop store, don't take the saw back (of course they wouldn't make you, they would figure out how to get you the rebate without the hassle). Store that has forced everybody else out so that they can hire un-skilled people and charge whatever and act like they care, take the saw back, they're practically making you - it's their own policy (they have to have something mom and pop stores don't have). I guess I'm in the minority here, but I guess I know enough good stores who would have helped Joseph or anybody out and honored what is a legitimate request (many stores will give you the sale price on something if the sale comes up soon after you bought). Some of you who have answered seem to be taking the "Don't stoop to their level," tack. That's a valid opinion, but I prefer to look at the other side, the "Call their bluff," tack. They've jerked us around by taking out the guys who will honestly work with us as customers, so I say use their own policy against them (especially becasue he's got to spend the $50 at the same store again! - And why? Because they've buddied up to DeWalt, something a mom and pop can't do!).
Like you said, my $.02, and it's not better than anybody else's. Good post folks, enjoy.
Erich
Erich,
I did misunderstand your comment, thanks for the clarification.
I believe that the big box retailers did not drive out the litte guys, the customers did. They voted with their feet, as they always do! The little guys that do survive in this kind of environment are those that find out what keeps their customers happy and then they do it better than anyone else. It usually isn't price, it's service that makes a client. Unfortunately, America has gotten used to bad service, in fact expects it, and isn't willing to pay anything but the lowest price in response to it. We then get used to those prices and refuse to pay more for good service. The little guys suffer when their clients disappear because it's tough to get new ones based on the good / knowledgeable service promise.
This is one of those questions that arises now and again for all of us. I'm as guilty as anyone; if knowledgeable about a particular product why should I pay more for it just to buy it from someone who knows as much as me? To support the little guy? I like to pay it forward whenever I can but I work for my money, too.
I suggested that the original poster go to Dewalt for their rebate. I did that because the rebate is probably funded by their Marketing group; rather than reduce the cost of the saw to the retailer, they give it directly to the customer. Just so you know, they do this so that the price on their product doesn't get knocked down by $50 everywhere, at every store. If it did, the retailers would all be coming to them for price protection and further erode the manufacturer's already thin margins. In other words, they're looking for a way to bump sales without injuring their pricing structure. The retailer is not responsible for the $50, the vendor is. If the customer returns the product and then buys another to get the rebate, using the retailer's policies correctly, the retailer may take a hit by having to markdown the product to sell it as used. Often, however, the vendor will make provisions for the retailer to return items like this for full credit because of the rebate promo. They'd rather do it with a check than to pay for shipping, etc. Sending an email or letter is a lot easier than schlepping that saw around!
Sorry for the long post. My experience has been that most people who haven't worked in retail, don't understand half of what goes on in these stores. I'm trying to offer some knowledge I have. As far as the ethics on this one, I can' t cast the first stone.
Kell
I know my integrity is worth at least $20 because that was the rebate that was offered a week after I bought a Wagner power painter last July. I for one appreciate being able to buy extra stuff, see what works in my house, and then return the stuff I didn't need. That to me is worth more than a $20 rebate.
you know the offer doesn't apply to your purchase. you don't have the box. it is not your $50. i'd take the high road if i were you.
JOSEPH
I wouldn't exchange my integrity for $50. But, if anything is defective or goes wrong with the saw in the first 30 days, then return it...Period!
sarge..jt
The high road most of you are taking is fine, but bear in mind, Joesph didn't make the policies here. Most store state about returns, "for any reason." That to me means even if you don't like the color although the saw may work fine. The reason here is a better deal. I think Joesph should have taken the upc off another box when offered. I don't think anyone would have gotten screwed in the future. The store would have dealt with it as the need came up.
Again, my point though, any reason means just that, any reason, and it has nothing to do with morals or ethics in this case IMNSHO.
Don
Cone on Don. The store's return policy wasn't intended for this sort of thing and we all know it. Why does everyone scream about lack of ethics in the corporate boardroom, but not apply the same standards to themselves? Dishonesty takes many forms, but in the end it harms everyone.
I suppose that if, in time, the home center gets sick of being taken advantage of by their customers and changes their generous return policy, they'll suddenly become greedy SOBs.
"... surely Lord, it stinketh."
Jeff
The big box stores brought a particular kind of ethic to the marketplace and have to live with what they created. When the Depot arrived in my town, they used predatory pricing and drove all but one of the competitors out of business at which point, the prices bounced right back up. They still offer to beat anyones price regardless of discount, but they've knocked the other suppliers out of the game.
One of their selling features is a satisfaction guarantee. You can return anything for any reason - I was even told by an employee of them refunding the price of a set of tires to an eldery woman. If your reason is to save fifty bucks, it is perfectly legitimate to tell them that as you hand back the goods, and to expect them to return your money with a smile. You might not want to deal with a locally owned business in that fashion, but the big store has made it clear that is perfectly acceptable with them.
Dick,
I think you've nailed it here. I walk into different stores with different attitudes and those attitudes come out in what I pursue in the stores. I also don't think it was the consumer that broke the back of the mom and pops. The whole system of wholesaling was broken by the large chains with direct manufacturer buying. That created a new price point the mom and pop's couldn't compete with.
Bottom line here is Joseph has a concern that the liberal policy chain stores should be addressing. It's there rules not Joe's. Sorry Jeff, if we were talking about a local lumber yard and Joe was considering returning the tool to get the $50 at the chain store, I would argue against it also, but that's not what is going on here. Same store, same policies, and to the best of my understanding, the policy is unconditional.
Don
Dick,
Are we aiming for the lowest common denominator then? Just because characters in the movies use the f-word ten times a minute doesn't make that kind of language acceptable for me or my kids. Similarly, if the big retailers choose to engage in sleazy business practices, I am not given free license to do the same. There is such a thing as ethics, morality, right and wrong, moral absolutes. Some may see "taking the high road" as old fashioned, but I prefer to be able to look at myself in the mirror knowing I've acted well and done what I believe is right.
Jeff
PS, Doesn't anybody read Aristotle, or the Koran, or the Bible?
Jeff,
I'm not missing your point, but in this situation I just happen to disagree with you. I do think the situation dictates behavior and it's not black and white, or consistent. As a contractor this kind of reminds me of all the little things customers ask me to do that I do do without billing them. It's just the nature of the business, and I don't think they are stealing from me for asking. Same for Joe here, had he bought months ago, I'd be with you, but it was a week ago. IMO, the store should have told him to wait a week to buy the saw for the deal or honor the deal post facto. Most stores do honor some kind of post facto policy concerning items bought in some time period before a sale. If Joe wouldn't have waited a week knowing of the up and coming deal, then again I'd be with you. I just don't see this as black and white as you do, and don't consider myself dishonest because of something like this. The implication is a far reach in my estimation.
Don
Don,
Please don't be offended, and don't look for implications. I was a philosophy major, so I try to say what I mean and no more. Guess that's where I'm coming from. Can't see why folks can't be more honest rather than engaging in all the banter with legal subtleties, layers of meaning, hidden meaning etc. I think yes, should mean yes; no mean no. Guess I get tired of all the little games.
Jeff
I would pursue it with Dewalt; send them a copy of the receipt, tell them the store wouldn't honour the rebate (which I think they should have.....most stores I deal with have a 'if it goes on sale within a week' window....and most of the other good ones will lso tell you that it's coming on sale in a week), and that you're pissed off and won't buy any more yellow tools if that's the way you're going to be dealt with.I'm not saying fib; I'm perfectly prepared to switch tool brands if I get screwed. i vbought a Dewalt saw once....came with an extra 'finish' blade, whcih was a piece of crap. I wrote them, told them it was a piece of crap, and I wasn't impressed with what they wrere doing. They sent me a replacement which was marginally less crappy....anyway, the point it, they kept a customer relatively happy.
A couple of people have implied that taking the $50 is somehow shorting the manufacturer or the store by that amount.....it's not. It's a voluntary rebate , paid for out of the margin on the saws, that can be applied to the purchase of something else, which has a healthy margin built in too. They are offering to make less of a profit (but not losing anything), in this instance, and they sell more stuff which is a win for them. No way is anyone losing money on this deal, which they are perfectly happy to offer to customers during the 'official' rebate period. They aren't going to lose money by letting anyone else in on it either.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I'm with Jeff K. - one's ethics, morals and values are absolutes or nothing at all. Situational ethics lead to Clinton in front of a special prosecuter defending his position that a blow job is not having sex. And then he isn't even prosecuted for perjury because it would be bad for the country or he was just reacting like any other married man caught in that situation. No absolutes, no values.
There are stores that will give retro sales prices at both ends of the spectrum and inbetween - Nordstroms to Target. A sale and a rebate are different animals as are price and satisfaction guaranties. A satisfaction guaranty can only be reasonably applied to the product, not the terms of transaction after the fact. A purchase is in effect a contract - you pays your money, you get to walk out of the store with the product without being arrested for shoplifting. Done deal. If there's no problem with the product, then you're just trying to renegotiate the deal after the fact.
Actually I've been treated quite reasonably by the big box store. Never been refused on a return with or without the receipt. I once got $250 in gift cards for Christmas. I needed a belt sander and wanted a Bosch 4x24 which they didn't carry. I explaned it to the manager and he cashed in the gift cards, no hassle.
To the "Predatory Pricing" theorist, I still say the consumer sold out the mom and pops. Everytime you make a purchase you make a decision to support your local community or some big faceless corporation. Actually the manufacturers that gave the big box the pricing so they could undercut the market are as quilty or more so than the big box.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Is it just me or does it seem that a vast majority of people now a days seem to think that rules apply to everyone except themselves? In addition, is it humorous to anyone else that quite a few people try to justify why "this" situation or "that" situation is different, as it pertains to them?
You bought a saw about a week before a promotion began. Store personnel may or may not have known about the upcoming promotion (entirely irrelevant in any case). You asked the store manager to make an exception. He "went by the rules" and declined to do so. Should be the end of the story.
However, in this day and age, everyone feels slighted and paranoid that the entire world is out to get them.
I think I will sue the lottery commission! I bought the winning lottery numbers... But they gave the prize to someone else! Doesn't matter that I bought my numbers for the lottery that occurred last week. They should go ahead and make an exception and declare me the winner as well! (Regardless of whether or not lottery tickets have a "refund/return" policy!)
Just my $0.02 worth... And I am sure I will have to provide you with change!
RR
Wow, let's not forget the manager offered options to take advantage of the sale but Joe felt they resulted in screwing someone else so he didn't partake.
After the Clinton nonsense and situational ethics I guess I should bow out before I write something I'll regret. The blasting of situational ethics is usually by those in complete denial and total justification about themselves.
Don
Don,
The way I read it, the manager was able to "take care of" part of the requirements. That being the dating of the reciept.
When told of the UPC requirement, the manager said to cut one off an exsisting box, but quickly retracted this statement.
I should have said that I have no problem with people asking for an exception to a rule, should they desire to do so. I do have a problem with people "expecting" to seemingly always receiving the exception and then complaining about being a "victim" when they don't get their way.
I should have never hit the "Post" button!!!!!
Okay, I'll offer a slightly different logic. The store offers a guarantee where the customer can receive the difference if the product goes on sale, or is had for cheaper elsewhere within a certain time period. Whether or not this offer is technically a "discount", you bought this in the state of mind that "I will not find a better deal elsewhere in the next so many days". Because of this, I believe you are ENTITLED to the $50 store credit.
That said, I probably would not return the thing unless it was my last resort. First, I would get the new receipt with the updated sale date. Then I would try to find a upc code from someone else's saw. Did anybody here save their box from their DeWalt CMS? I have the box from my Makita, but that's a Makita. Ask over in the rec.woodworking newsgroup too, and you might get lucky.
Barring a upc, I would just write DeWalt and explain your situation. "I threw out my box and now I can't get the rebate." They make you send in this upc because they don't want people sending in multiple rebate forms, not to screw people who throw out their boxes. Ask them if you can send in the upc from the manual instead (or something along those lines), I would be surprised if they refused you.
Only after that would I consider returning the saw.
Actually, (just thought of this) you might also want to go back to the store and just try someone else. Sometimes one manager will do what another will not.
Hope you get the rebate...
Tom
Edited 10/10/2002 5:30:53 PM ET by big country
I certainly can't deny that there is a logic to what you say, but I don't think it applies in this case. It seems to me that if the store offers that policy of unconditional saisfaction, they are saying they want you to be satisfied with your experience with them. If that means dealing with some pretty far out causes of dissatisfaction, so be it - they have committed to doing that. If the policy was money refunded if product is defective, there isn't a leg to stand on to return the item and any attempt to circumvent the policy would be immoral.
I'd say that the big box business model includes the cost of the policy and it hasn't hurt their bottom line. Any savings to them from people not using the policy isn't going to result in lower prices, just higher profit. As a sidenote, a friend of mine has a pallet recycling business and collects the pallets from a local big-box. There is a dumpster near the pickup point and he has pulled thousands of dollars of perfectly good merchandise, all marked with yellow paint, that had been used as display stock. Their policy is to render the item unsaleable and discard it. His best find was a Bosch SDS hammer drill in perfect condition other than the yellow paint. I'll bet the cost of their discards is at least as great as that of the return policy.
Pretty interesting thread. There's a whole lot of rationalization for screwing the big box store out of $50 for all kinds of reasons here but none of them are valid. The least of which is that they put the mom and pops out of business. We consumers put the mom and pops out business because we were disloyal over a few bucks here and there and didn't value the service we used to get until it was gone. Let's say the 'screw 'em' camp sells a chair for $500 to customer A and a week later sells the same chair to customer B for $450 for whatever reason. Customer A finds out and goes back to the 'screw 'ems camp and asks for a $50 rebate. All those that would reach into their pocket for that 1/2C note and give it to customer A and feel good about it may return their saws in clear conscience.
We're all tested all the time. I was just scheme'n just this morning about paying upfront so I could submit separate claims for dental work to my and my wife's insurance companies without disclosing the other coverage to either because they don't coordinate benefits. I rationalized that they both collect the full premium so they should both pay the full amount irrespective of other coverage. Sounds fair enough. After all, I'm p i s s e d off because my company won't touch implants but they'd pay $1200 for 1/2 a bridge, I have 2 in progress @ $3k a piece, so I'm making payments on my poser dentists' Harleys (that they probably don't even ride). Bottom line - it's insurance fraud, plain and simple. I'm not a lawyer, but I know it's fraud because my conscience tells me so.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
well, you did say that the store in question has a policy of refunding the difference if you buy something and it goes on sale within 30 days- i fail to see the difference between a $50 rebate and a lower price. i think the store is not being faithful to that policy and if you feel it's worth your time to play the return and re-purchase game you should do so with a clear conscience.
mitch
Interestingly enough, I was in the big box just two days ago, and had a look at their new appliance department to see what there pricing on refridgerators was like. Saleswoman said "If you find a lower price on the same model within thirty days of purchase, we will refund the difference if you produce the ad making the offer".
That being said, here is their rather ambiguos refund policy:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=NAVIGATION&CNTKEY=help%2findex.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@1203570899.1034300946@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdjadcghfgmdfgcgelceffdfgidgmk.0
Note: The Home Depot reserves the right to request valid identification prior to accepting merchandise for a return. The Home Depot reserves the right to limit or refuse to accept the return of certain merchandise at any time and for any reason. The Home Depot will only accept the return of merchandise purchased from a Home Depot store. (The Home Depot will not accept the return of merchandise from EXPO Design Center or Villager's Hardware stores.)
Dick,
EXPO Design Center is owned by Home Depot, and I'm pretty sure Villager's Hardware is as well. I suppose it's like GM making you take your Cadillac to an authorized Cadillac dealer for warranty service, etc., and not a Saturn dealer. I believe the right to refuse or accept line is legal mumbo-jumbo to protect themselves from problems when obviously misused merchandise is brought back for refund.
Jeff
It all seems deliberately ambiguous. I posted it for the purpose of highlighting that and can understand their point about refusing merchandise from other chains they own. I had hoped for something a little more specific about return criteria but that policy must be developed at regional or store level. The local store has a policy of guaranteeing satisfaction, which in my view goes considerably beyond guaranteeing the merchandise.
I think that price guarantee policy mentioned by the appliance sales rep would be a perfect opportunity to gain the rebate; presenting them with their own ad has to be as valid as presenting a competitor's.
A question off topic - you said you were a philosophy major. I'm curious why you would make that choice - I do consider it a worthwhile one, just not often seen these days.
Dick,
Liberal arts college I attended required two classes and I got hooked. No "practical" use other than possibly getting into Law School. Guess that gives it a one-up on English Lit. (My brother has a PhD in political science. We sure know how to pick 'em!)
Jeff
I currently work for Home Depot and can tell you about the return policy.
right to refuse or accept. Thats right and heres a typical case of why this is. A women bought a dishwasher and took it home and had it installed by a plumber. After that she stated she did her a load of dishes and claimed it was oversudsing and leaking out the door. I asked her what type of detergent she had used. She said she was using Sunlight powder. I opened the door and then the soap dispenser and out came "Dawn liquid soap" Thats right, Dawn. She didn't have a receipt and it could have been purchased anywhere. Thats abuse and call service on the dishwasher. She used the WRONG soap and from the looks of it more then one load she stated. She lied and got caught.
Two things you can do. One, tell the manager to get the UPC off the box that the display saw came from. Its probably in the overhead. Two, return it and re-purchase the unit , thats all. People buy and use a product for a one time use and return them all the time. Who cares as long as you have a receipt.
In my 10+ years in retail I have seen everything returned from custom kitchen cabinets to camcorders with the tape of the family vacation still in it. Lawnmowers that are sold in the spring are returned in th fall because "they don't like it." A black over the range microwave purchased in 04/2001 was returned for a white over the range microwave today also. 30 day return policy???? Satisfing the customer is the name of the game. The real reason was he re-designed his kitchen and his wife didn't want a black over the range microwave.
If we could sit down in a room and listen to some of the things that go on between the consumer and the retailers it would amaze you.
Personally, I think you should just walk away and forget about the $50. This is why they have start and stop dates for these promotions. Sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. I think it would be a lack of integrity to return the saw, which you are happy with, just to recoup the $50 rebate you missed in the first place. Do the right thing.
<rant on>
On a side note, this thread is interesting because it bugs me that there is the mentality of "screw them, I got mine" going around. The store is responsible for the best customer service it should give, but it's not responsible for mollifying those who miss the start/stop dates on promotions.
<rant off>
I can't tell you how many times I've purchased computer equipment for my business only to have it cheaper shortly down the road. That's life. If I kept waiting for the price to go cheaper I'd never get anything I need because there will always be something faster/better down the road.
My 2¢, your mileage may vary.
Michael
Joseph,
You need to figure out what your time is worth. Dewalt has a 30-day money back guarantee. You can take the saw back with no questions asked. If they hassle you, call the corporate customer service # and file a complaint.
Purchase a new saw and get your rebate. - if this is worth your time.
Joseph, I'd agree that returning the saw seems unethical...But the free enterprize system depends heavily on an intelligent and self interested consumer. The seller(s) in this case have established the rules and you should feel not only free, but actually duty bound, to exploit their rules to the best of your ability. If you feel the $50 savings is worth your effort, then you should pursue it...That's how rules get perfected and the system benefits from that. As it now stands, their rules are unfair in that they advantage one group of customers and punish another based on nothing more than the arbitrary timing of their promotion. They need to learn that they have some loyal customers who aren't pleased by this sort of merchandising strategy.
You shouldn't exchange your integrity for $50. If you do what is right now You'll find somewhere sometime soon you'll be rewarded & find that there is a good price offered on something else somewhere that you need or want. It may even be a better discount than $50.
I'm surprised at some of the responses here. now I buy all of my big tools from a small toolstore because he's a great guy and deserves the business, but he's also an hours drive and there's a big box store 5 min from my house. for smaller items I usually end up going to the big box store because of time and they're open long hours too. Now a fair amount of people think that it is immoral to manipulate the system in order to get a $50 rebate. hardly, the salesman there offered Joseph the rebate and then retracted his offer, I would consider that more immoral.
I'm also pissed off at the number of complete retards that work there, granted there are a few knowledgeable employees, but they're few and far between. the amount of bad advice their employees give people should have put them out of business already. think about how many amateur DIYers have been injured because some idiot recommended the wrong tool for the job and they took their word for it.
You guys should know how poorly they treat some of their suppliers. they don't ask but demand that they give them the best prices, and because they buy in such large volumes the suppliers either do as they request or risk going out of business. they have also filled many shops with lower grade tools that they have custom made for them. if you look at the model #'s on some of their power tools you'll see that they have an extra digit or two added on the the end.
even though they have a lowest price guarantee on everything they sell, I've noticed that they will give one person the discount, but they won't lower the price so that everyone can benefit, that seems somewhat immoral.
IMO big box stores do a lot more damage then they do good, so don't feel bad about asking them for something that I think they owe you, and don't feel bad about using their return policy, if they couldn't afford it it wouldn't be there. they say they want you to be satisfied, and so it's their fault if it comes at their expense.
Joseph, if it were me I would kick a can and get on with my life. I definitely would not compromise my integrity and honor. Not for 50 bucks or any other amount. I once went to an ATM for some cash. There was a 20 on the ground. The bank was closed and there was no one around. I went back to the bank the next day and told a cashier that if anyone came in saying they were short money from the ATM to give me a call at work. Over the next two days I had six calls. None of them could come up with the correct amount.. and one of them even asked if she was "high or low". Too many people have too low an opinion of doing what's right.
You missed the date, move on. Build something with your new saw.
How would you respond if a week after you bought it the price went up and the store asked you for more money? The line in the sand works both ways.
You missed the offer! Move on!
TDF
Edited 10/10/2002 7:54:52 PM ET by Tom Ferreira
Take back the saw. You don't need to be deceptive, dishonest, or unethical about it. Honestly tell them why you are returning the saw. It is their policy to allow returns for any reason...tell them the reason, honestly and completely. And add that it is also their policy, as you stated, to allow for adjustments for sales within 30 days. This is not a sale, but the spirit of the policy is to avoid problems such as this, to avoid customers feeling they just missed a better deal, and then creating problems for the store. The spirit of the 30 day policy is the crux. Maybe tell them you plan to take back the saw and buy another, but suggest they consider giving you a $50 store credit, equivalent to the offer, and they won't have to deal with the used saw. If they won't take the offer, go to a higher court, ie, the manager or the main headquarters, with that proposal. If they won't budge, then take back the saw, if reluctantly, and either buy another or walk away. You need not feel guilty or unethical, having proceeded using their return policy and having been sincere and honest throughtout the process.
I personnally dont care for that box or any of the boxes. They have hosed me on returns and as such I will not buy tools or most things from them unless its late at night and theyre the only ones open and I cant wait til morning. With that being said, I would go to the store talk to another manager (go at a different time or even another store) and explain to them the situation, Dont lie I dont sell my integrity for any amount of money but be honest tell them the truth. Id even go so far as tell them that you will return the the tool per their return policy and jump right back in line with a saw with the rebate. Its their policy your not lying, or cheating by telling them the truth as its their rules your living up to.. They have the return policy posted in plain sight. Your doing nothing but adherreing to their return policy . So as long as your not being deceptive I dont see anything morally wrong with returning the saw. But thats my opinion. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
The only valid reason for returning the saw would be that it is faulty. If you say it's faulty when it isn't, that's lying. You could try to return the saw and tell them the reason is that when you made the purchase it didn't qualify for the current $50 cash back -- at least that way you'd be morally in the right.
Like my view of What Art Is, i call it all Ethics--but i can tell what part of the continuum i'm operating in, Whale Poop>Stellar. (Not a very Aristotelian outlook, from what i gather so far.) So do you, or you wouldn't be asking for permission to do something legal, but ethically ambiguous.
Conversely, i recently returned a tool i didn't have a legal right to return, but i felt i had the ethical right to do so since it had repeatedly broken down from the get-go and refused to perform as advertised, though the final straw occurred outside the warranty period. IMO, the manufacturer forfeited their right to fair play by making a bad saw. I realize unless you're wearing crampons, this can be a steep slope on which to stand--or slip.
Here's the algorithm: Try another manager or--preferably--go over their heads to another boss who undertstands good business. Call Dewalt. Squeaky-wheel to your heart's content, but do whatever it takes to stay in the high end of the continuum. If that doesn't work, decide whether moving down in the continuum is worth $50 and do that.
"The only valid reason for returning the saw would be that it is faulty. If you say it's faulty when it isn't, that's lying.You could try to return the saw and tell them the reason is that when you made the purchase it didn't qualify for the current $50 cash back -- at least that way you'd be morally in the right."
isnt that what I said, go tell them the truth,tell them why your returning the saw, but return it after after you tried every other way including telling the manager that your gonna return the because they wont honor the rebate I did not to use lying, cheating , stealing, deception I adives to even tell them why your returning because they wont honor the rebate your useing their posted publicized return policy then whats immoral about that? Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Ron,My post wasn't meant to be to you -- it was meant to go to ALL and once I'd made the post I couldn't change it -- sorry.
Its cool bro, say how about posting more pics of those great floors you do. i really lke looking at them and thinking maybe some day I could do that well. They are nice. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Ron,There's plenty of floor photos on my site.As to doing them yourself -- I'll let you into a secret, the skill level required isn't very high, it's more a knowledge thing.
cool Ian I like looking at pictures of beautiful craftmanship. ill check out your site...
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
OK, why not purchase another saw? Get the rebate, and remove the UPC from your (new) unopened box. Now return the new unopened saw with the September receipt (my wife bought me one, forgot I had another). You keep the saw you have at home. Feel better about this solution?
1 day, 7 days, 85 days, where do you draw the line. Would you feel that you deserved the $50 if this offer started in Dec. This kind of thing happens all the time. Its not dishonest, its not even deceitful, its just the way it is.
The store manager comes across as a man with a ton of integrity. Sounds like a place I'd like to give my business too.
Joseph,
It is unethical of you to return the saw. The reason is very simple: you are not sure that it is the right thing to do. You've asked for others to give you valid reasons to return it.
Since you have difficulty believing that it is right to return it, it is not right.
You've learned a minor life lesson: Sometimes you find something for a lower price shortly after you've bought. The fact that the lower effective price is at the same store is totally irrelevant. The price was acceptable to you when you bought. That's the end of it. The store owes you nothing. Since you were satisfied that the the purchase represented good value when you bought, use it as you would, had the rebate not happened. Because morally, for you, the rebate didn't happen.
Rich
Just an idea.
Has anyone here purchased a Dewalt Miter saw recently and still have the box?
If you do, get Joseph to email you an address and send him the UPC symbol.
Then he can get a redated receipt and get the rebate for the cost of a couple of stamps.
I've still got the box from the one I bought 3 or 4 years ago. I'm not sure it'd be the right UPC still. Really a great saw though.
In fact I'm not sure the UPC symbol is still on it.
Sidenote. With any plug in tool purchase, it's a good idea to keep the box for 2-3 months in case you have problems. Kind of a pain w/ big boxes, but still a good idea.
Maybe we should all just keep the UPC symbols w/ the owners manuals for such things.
Anyway, let me know. I think you can send me a personal email if your interested. But let me see if I have it first.
Bill G
In the spirit of today's announcement that Jimmy Carter has won the Nobel Peace Prize...
Joseph, good for you for asking yourself -- and the rest of us -- about what to do in this situation. Ethics count; morality counts... but they're meaningless (that is, non-existent) unless they're regularly tested and questioned.
I'm not a philosopher, and I'm not particularly religious (spiritual, to a degree, I suppose). Absolutes worry me... but so does a vacuum. So, while I know how I would answer your question, I'll leave it to you to decide. But thanks for asking, nonetheless.
David
I was reading all the messages posted, and I might be the only one who has anything nice to say about the "Big Box Stores". I had a gallon of weed killer that leaked all over the trunk of of my father's range rover. I brought this to the attention of the management, and they not only gave me new weed killer, but also gave me an address for their expediter for such a situation. I was required to give them three estimates. I went ahead and got one estimate but I had already shop-vacced most of the weed-killer out of the trunk and after driving for a week with the windows down, all of the smell was gone. So I had forgotten about sending in the estimates. One month later I received a check for $150 from them. I went ahead to a detailer to really get the trunk clean and he did it for $50. I felt bad about the extra $100 (which I feel you would to about your $50) so I went ahead and dropped a check to them for $100 along with the bill from the detailer. I received from them a $25 gift card to use in their store for my honesty. In the end honesty and integrity has its own rewards. I believe if you write to their headquarters and explain your situation, you might be surprised with what they might do for you. Best of luck.
Love the ethical questions--Here's my two cents:
In general I favor shopping at the mom and pop stores because I like to establish a relationship with an owner/manager. I don't mind paying slightly more for a product if I know it is going to come with good advice and follow-up service. The mom and pop stores don't advertise the lowest prices or offer a "10% double the difference in sales taxes minus the government budget plus store credit less the price" type of gimmicks. What I expect from these people is service and selection (and if they don't have it they order it and follow-up with great service)
The BiG BoXes have no service, no help, no knowledgeable people, long lines, and no discretion to do what's right for a customer. The BiG BoXes deal in PRICE and a SATISFACATION GUARANTEE and a "We'll beat it by 10 PERCENT" advertising campaign to get you to part with your hard earned dollars. They have the muscle to get vendors to chip in advertising money and will often take back goods from The BiG BoXes that won't be taken back by the mom and pops. The only thing that I expect from The BiG BoXes is the best price possible because that's what they promise--so when that doesn't occur, I feel they havn't lived up to their promise....
Given the difference in the way the two stores promise things to me, I treat them differently. On those rare occasions when I buy something from The BiG BoXes, I only expect them to deliver on those things they promised...Which is price and guarnteed satisfaction. So I would do the following:
Call me an A$$, but it's The BiG BoXes' rules not mine....Good luck. Next time support a mom and pop and you'll feel better all the way around. I don't like The BiG BoXes in case you haven't noticed.
PNut
Return the merchandise because you are not satisfied with the price change in such a short period of time.
Look to see if another of The BiG BoXes has it "cheaper"
Go back to original "BiG BoX" and ask for the 10% difference in the lower price.
Take the UPC and the reciept and get the 50 bucks.
Call me an A$$, but it's The BiG BoXes' rules not mine....Good luck. Next time support a mom and pop and you'll feel better all the way around. I don't like The BiG BoXes in case you haven't noticed.
You are not an A$$ but a smart consumer. Just watch out with some retailers, they will give you either the rebate or the cheaper price. If the cheaper price is lower then the rebate you may have to eat it. I did when I got my Jet T/S ($899) for $649. No rebate, I got for a price lower then $949
Try this analogy, Joseph...
I'm at Ceaser's Palace playing roullette. I like the #36, so I play it every spin for about an hour, and finally give up on it and play #12. Wouldn't you know...the ball picks #36 the very first time I didn't play it, and I'm nearly in tears. I have displayed brand loyalty to the casino and to the number 36, yet I am fairly certain that I have no recourse in this situation. In fact, the only plan I can think of is to play #12 for the foreseeable future, oh yeah, and have another free drink.
Take Care,
Donald
HAHA, Can't say I understand that one. Look at it this way, if Ceaser's Palace had a policy that if you change numbers after playing one for so long and it hits you could collect, are you trying to say you wouldn't collect? I get the feeling a lot of people here ain't walking the talk. JMO.
Is an artist moral? The artist thread tops the list for numbers, but this one is in front on posts/minute. These are important questions, people. Pay close attention to them. We may bomb Baghdad before our economy completely collapses, but at least the Knots deep thinkers will have expressed themselves on bending the rules on tool purchases.
Joseph, why not just steal the thing if you want it that much? I'll be a character witness for you if it comes to that.
This is all really amazing. Sarcasim, name calling (real or implied), situational ethics, no situational ethics, black and white, shades of grey, etc. etc. etc. Disagreeing is fine, arrogance with a, "I am better then you," nonsense over this just doesn't get it. Extreme situation, your homeless, your kids are straving, there's no grey, there's no situational ethics, morally your kids need to starve to death! Yea, like that's going to happen. A lot of people seem to think, in my opinion, that everything would be just fine if they defined and enforced what is moral or ethical. Yep, Hitler tried that once!
Just my two cents.
Don
Yea and when we clean up that sess pool called Iraq and our government helps them jump start their economy increases their cost of living and quality of life then they will be trying to fiqure out how to deal with the big boxes also..we are just ahead of our time.....planning for the future Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Joseph, Look what you started. All this debate over a mere piddling 50 dufus bucks. In the time it took to read this thread over the last few days as, like Topsy, it grew and grew, I've earned many times over that using just such a machine cutting and installing some cornice moulding. You probably lost 1/2 an hour of (potentially) chargeable or otherwise useful wood chopping time (at $40- $50 an hour) typing your question, and another hour wasted reading the replies. You're in the hole already, and you've wasted yet more time (and fuel) too dodging backwards and forwards to the outlet you bought the saw from. That's my alloted five minutes spent on actually replying to this topic. I think I just prefer to get on with life. Does the saw work fine? Did you feel ripped off when you purchased it? If no to either question, then I'd say forget it and move on. Life's too short to worry about $50. Slainte.
Edited 10/12/2002 2:35:03 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Richard, when you put it like that---my typing being as slow as it is--i realize my posts are dang near priceless.
That's funny Splintie. My typing's pretty slow too. My thoughts run way ahead of my typing speed. Darn. Now I've spent another minute or so responding to this subject. I'm out of here. Slainte, RJ.
Website
yea but frank was saying inna thread that this place is getting boring this thread is rocking... A round for everyone.... Ill even buy...... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Joseph,
After reading all these posts I'm sure you've been enlightened ! :)
Morality has been overused in these posts since morality is dependent on its origin. What is moral to one person or belief, may not be to another. Enough said there. You do what is right for you, and if you don't already know what is right, do you pass on it and play it safe?
As to the legality, if the big box store advertises you are able to return for 30 days for any reason, you can return it. The reason does not have to fit anyones' criteria for judgement (except you have to look at the guy in the mirror). The reeturn policy does NOT require your reason to be one of a list of implied reasons as some have hinted, it just says any reason. Legally, you would be justified in returning it.
It boils down to one thought. You Can do it, but what is right for you?
Stan
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