Is Something Up With Powermatic?
Hi All,
I’ve been trying to decide between a Powermatic or a Delta 14″. Along the way, I noticed something odd. I went to my local Woodcraft to look at the two saws and they said they don’t have any Powermatic bandsaws on the floor, but they could order one for me.
I called a tool dealer about an hour away from me, and they said they do not carry Powermatic either, but again could order it for me.
Finally, I went to a major dealer in my area called Coastal Tool. This is a great place for large machines. They said they no longer stock Powermatic equipment. The manager told me why. I forget all the details, but his point is that Wilton Machinery, which owns Powermatic, has been making distribution very difficult, and a lot of dealers are choosing just to stop carrying the Powermatic line.
If this trend continues, how are we supposed to make a side-by-side comparison of the tools?
has anyone else experienced this lately?
Edited 7/1/2005 8:57 am ET by Matthew Schenker
Replies
What'd he mean by "difficult" is what I'm wondering. I bought both the Powermatic 14" and a 64A Contractor's saw over the last year. After calling around, I bought them from Amazon - their free shipping amounts to a huge discount right off the bat for me. Freight from other dealers started at around $100. Add Amazon's no tax, $25 discount on big tools, and Jet Tool Group's rebates deal that just ended a couple months ago (but where all purchases had to be from teh same dealer), and the prices became very very hard to beat. I wonder if small dealers have found it unprofitable to carry the stuff because people just use them as a show room and then buy from Amazon? Just a thought.
Did they have a Jet BS onthe floor? Because Wilton distributes both. I would think what goes for one goes for the other.
Jet BS .. Rikon is a better saw... In the size they have,, Probably made in the same factory!
Will,
When I was looking to compare the Powermatic with the Delta bandsaws, the guy at my local Woodcraft tried to sell me on the Rikon.I've heard good things about this brandn already, and I am actually very curious about their jointer/planer combo machine. But it's a little bit of a question mark in terms of quality.Rikon does make an 18" bandsaw for $1,000. That's only about $150 more than the Delta or the Powermatic 14". Do you think it's a wise choice?
Edited 7/1/2005 10:23 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
This is a timely thread for me. I am currently in the Agonizing throes of which machine, and I believe that at this point it is mostly my own confusion (lol).
I WILL buy a new tablesaw, my old one is sold and gone. Basically I have narrowed it down to a 66 or a General 650 both with 50" fence and 3 hp. I still want to believe that PM is a great American brand, but what are you supposed to do? call and ask?
General looks like a great saw, and have only heard good things about them, Basically , I guess I am torn between two flags, stars and stripes? or a Maple Leaf?
It will be interesting to see everyones take on which companies still want to make machines.
E
ej611,
I wonder if General is suffering from the same issues we are seeing at Delta and Powermatic/Jet?Eventually, it might not matter which brand you buy.With everyone going in the same direction, it's possible that a company will come along and make tools that are better and become the new greatest manufacturer. The sad/funny thing is that the new company wouldn't have to do anything terrific, just match the pre-China production of their competitors. This new company could even do something really radical and have the engineering, parts manufacturing, and construction done in the United States! No, now I'm dreaming...Or maybe Chinese products will improve and all our choices will be terrific (of course, then the process will start all over again in Mexico or Honduras).Where is this all going?
I understand that General (Canadian) is largely a manufacturer of heavy road equipment (earthmovers and such). I was told that they got into the woodworking tool manufacturing end to fill in the gaps during slow times in their primary Endeavor, but that the tools tended to reflect their overall quality approach to heavy duty equipment and precision.
Now mind you, all this was anecdotal information through a dealer or three.
As for my own experience, I owned a General TS a few years back, and was extremely happy with it. The run-out on the Arbor was practically non-existent. It could cut through thick rock maple without slowing down. The only reason I no longer own it, it that I opted for a sliding panel saw. Great fit and finish, and very flat cast iron surfaces.
My comments apply to the Canadian general and not General international with which I have no experience.
I still want to believe that PM is a great American brand, but what are you supposed to do? call and ask?Canada is North America and PM hasnt been truly American brand for a few years and why should that matter? Buy what will make you feel confident in your own abilities, enhance your skill set, and thrill you whenever you turn it on. Heres one for you-Minimax- currently a well loved brand in the US. It used to be SCMI which meant "Societe Communiste Machinerie Internationale" Most Americans would be appalled at that fact albeit blindly. Great machines though.
So, I repeat buy the one you think is good. Ignore the sourcing (Made in America might only mean assembled out of "world" parts) and start cutting. You'll be blissed..... Aloha, mike
I wasn't trying to say that the PM equipment was not up to par. I was only stating what our supply line was like, it seems to be practically nonexistant.
You might want to check out Grizzly products (bandsaw, tablesaw and jointers). I will be getting one of their bandsaws in a couple of months, based on what I have heard about them form others on this site and that they have good customer support. 1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Rick503,
I don't doubt that a lot of people are happy with Grizzly, but I've only had bad experiences with them. At this moment, I have a drill press in my basement, which is supposed to be Grizzly's best model. It came with a crushed hood and missing parts, and has developed some other problems after very light use. When I complained to Grizzly about it, all they did was send me some replacement parts, which required me to take the whole machine apart, which I chose not to do. If I had bought this machine from a local tool seller, it would have gone back, no doubt about it, and I would have bought another brand.If something goes wrong with a mail-order major machine, you're in for a major hassle.I'm really trying to avoid mail-order if I can.
Edited 7/3/2005 5:50 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Mathew's point is well taken; if we are experiencing quality problems with less expensive tools, the last place you want to order is online or mailorder. I have run into problems and was very glad I bought at my local Woodcrafters for maybe $20 more but could take the machine back and get another without having to pack and ship and wait weeks for a replacement. Amazon will just refer you to the manufacturer.
SAILALEX,
And in the case of Grizzly, the seller is the manufacturer, so they do even less for you, at least in my case.At least with Amazon, they have taken major machines back and paid for shipping. But there is a gigantic pain in the butt of not only repacking the damn thing, but also having to schedule a pick-up with UPS, and then having to go back again and figure out how to get a replacement, waiting a week for it to be delivered, etc.But the way things are going, it looks like online is the only way to go.I am trying to compare Powermatic and Delta bandsaws, and I wanted also to look at a couple of 16" models. So far, the only ones I can find in stores are the Selta X5 models -- that's it. I'm almost forced to go online.
Edited 7/4/2005 8:56 am ET by Matthew Schenker
?? if we are experiencing quality problems with less expensive tools, the last place you want to order is online or mailorder. I have run into problems and was very glad I bought at my local Woodcrafters for maybe $20 more but could take the machine back and get another without having to pack and ship and wait weeks for a replacement. Amazon will just refer you to the manufacturer.??The big box stores are no better than buying online either for the return policy. Aloha, mike
So Grizzly has become the Wal~Mart of power tools? undercutting all? (LOL) Well, they are cheap quality.. From what I understand (and I may be mistaken) Porter Cable purchased Delta, and was changing it over to their 'Low End' product line, then Black and Decker (Dewalt) purchased the Porter Cable name.. Correct? Kind of a shame.. Porter Cable has always been one of my favorites..
Delta has sunkl in quality in the last few, i purchased a saw for my home remodeling a few years back.. just a basic contractor saw from Lowes $500 or so.. That saw is a real work horse.. I have beat it up one side and down the other.. I can;t begin to find that same saw with a delta name on it now.. It is all garbage. The really sad part is not only is it a major waste of money, but it is a huge safety hazard.. A wonderful way to lose a few fingers..
It would really be nice if you were informed.
Pentair owned both Delta & Porter Cable.
Pentair no longer has any interest in manufacturing tools they have business in.
From their web site...
View Image
Grizzly started out selling tools that came off the assembly line in Taiwan then the found out this didn't work to well & that we wanted better quality tools & now have their own QA reps at the factories & spec out their own tools & have much better quality at a lower price because there is no middle man. You purchase directly from the importer.
Every tool manufacture has tools that may not meet your needs & or expectations this is why we have brains & abilities & discernment to pick out which tool from what ever manufacture that suites our needs. Some have a need for high quality for day to day use or have a picky attitude & a full wallet to match. Others need a tool to fit their wallet whether it be a expensive, mid range, or a cheep tool. Throughout this range of costs some manufacture will have what they or you want.
So relax enjoy what is available make your choice spend your money & let others spend theirs. If you will notice there are some changes in tool manufacturing some good some bad they are driven by the market & the internet. Yes the manufactures do read there forums.
Edited 7/31/2005 11:14 am ET by Bart
Edited 7/31/2005 11:17 am ET by Bart
Samson,
I've noticed that tool sellers are also carrying less of Jet as well. I went to look at the Jet 16" bandsaw, and again the local Woodcraft and Coastal Tool don't carry them. Woodcraft has one Jet bandsaw, and that's it for Jet. Coastal tool has only a Jet cabinet saw. Other than that, Jet tools are a special order.It looks like Delta coninues to be carried by both places, though I don't know why Delta would be so preferred over Jet/Powermatic.In any case, Woodcraft seems to be emphasizing Rikon these days.They are also carrying a lot of Festool. But with Festool, I can underatand why! Those tools are great (which ou knew I would say).
OK, I work for a tool dealer and we are not stocking Jet or Powermatic. Wilton's supply line is so poor that they won't even guarantee us a delivery.
We had one customer that ordered a Jet sander and after 9 months told us to forget it. That was our last Wilton order for big equipment. Now we tell people to go to the net, it isn't worth the bad publicity that we get from not being able to deliver an order.
Dick,
What you just said sounds almost exactly like what I heard at Coastal Tool.I guess this raises two questions:
1. How will buyers see Powermatic machines if no brick-and-mortar stores carry them?
2. How long can Wilton kep this up before they are done for?Personally, I have become very hesitatnt to buy major machines online. In the past year, I had a couple of infuriating situations with online tool purchases. And I know I am not alone.I don't blame you as a dealer. You don't want to look bad and have frustration, so of course if Wilton becomes difficult you will stop dealing with them.
Powermatic's McMinnville, TN glory days are over. They've been owned by Jet/Wilton or whomever long enough that it's nothing but a brand and a yellow paint job at this point.
Could not say it better myself.......
cstan,
I see what you mean.But what are we to do when we want a new machine?I was comparing Delta and Powermatic, but then I heard that Delta is also not so reliable any more.Sort of back to the start, asking which one is a better saw, given all of this confusion.
Most of the main assemblies, and their parts, come from the same factories, unless you move into the higher professional end.
I don't want to push one against the other, but at the end of the day, those who have the best service, support and parts will get my order. Make a few phone calls and send a few emails, see what you get back.
<<I don't want to push one against the other, but at the end of the day, those who have the best service, support and parts will get my order. Make a few phone calls and send a few emails, see what you get back. >>
Could this be another circumstance where the major marketers wind up controlling the manufacturer's distribution? If so, then service, support and parts will be lost. No one expects Amazon to service or support their purchases but we do love those bargain prices, don't we? The local dealers have their orders filled if, and only if, there is something left after the Amazons, or in the case of everything else, the WalMarts, have their orders filled. The locals have precious little to sell which means their costs aren't covered. Some of them are trying to live on the services they perform on products bought elsewhere. It may already be too late to do anything about it.
I needed a new battery for my JD lawn tractor. Went to the local lawn and garden (and parts and service) store and told the lady what I needed. I also added, "And you will be happy to know it is for a tractor I bought here, not at Home Depot." She made a joke about wanting to have my baby.
Greg
The reason Amazon, International Tool, etc., are involved, is because some of the manufacturers don't want to invest in a sales and support organization.
I won't do business with any of these. Except for the occasional bench grinder, or supplies, I will not purchase any equipment at Lowes, Home Depot, or Sears either. This is all throwaway stuff, not the kind you'll find in my shop.
cstan
I couldn't agree with you more. My therapist must be doing me some good! (LOL) My newer 66 is nice, but nowhere near as nice as the older ones made in good ole' Tennessee. I think they're becoming just another pile of Taiwanese junk, to give my honest opinion. I'm presently in the process ($$$) of replacing my Jet and powermatic equipment with refurbished old amercan iron. So far, there's just no comparison in quality.
Jeff
Thats probably the track Ill follow, find good quality stuff that has been used but used wellWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
You're exactly right.
Is it possible you got a counterfeit PM-66? The reason I ask is I went into Woodcraft this morning and asked all the questions that have been asked here about PM and their current manufacturing practices. They knew mine was six years old, so the questions had nothing to do with me being a prospect for a new one. It looks exactly the same to me, Baldor motor and all, and the staff said it came from McMinnville like all of their non-Artisan tools. It sure ain't a Jet, anyway. So I'm puzzled by your experience and the feeling your PM-66 came from Taiwan or someplace other than TN. This Woodcraft store is a major supplier to local trades as well as non-commercial users and they keep an on-floor display of Jet. PM, Delta, Rikon and a few really high-end tools. You can buy the floor models or get them in a crate, your choice. Once I found a PM-66 for sale in Costco at a really low price and called the factory about it. Turned out there had been a shipment of them that had been in an accident and the company unloaded them in the insurance deal, but they wouldn't support the Costco SNs and claimed they were not supposed to be on the market. Kinda like a new car that got caught in a flood and came on the market as a "really great deal" when it dried out. Dunno, but all kinds of stuff is out there and they told me PM is still producing in TN.
Things are going to get much worse it seems. I was at my local Woodcraft, the salesman told they are not going to carry the Delta brand at ALL. Some problems they have with Black&Decker. Go figure!
GO CUBS!!!
benchdog,
What does Delta have to do with Black & Decker? I know DeWalt and Black & Decker are the same company, but why Delta?I couldn't find some Bosch equipment at my local Woodcraft, because they aren't stocking that brand any more. Hope Depot used to carry most Bosch equipment, and now they only have a handful of Bosch items.It does look like in the next five years every major tool purchase will be an issue.What I worry about is that online purchases will be the only way to get major tools. I have experienced several frustrating situations with Amazon and Grizzly, and I now try to avoid online purchases as much as possible. But then I go to the brick-and-mortar stores, and they don't have the tools. So I'm essentially forced to go online.What kind of power are we giving to organizations like Amazon? While Amazon has great prices and shipping terms today, what will happen when they become the only source for major tools? My guess is they will not be so reasonable at that point.
Edited 7/2/2005 10:45 am ET by Matthew Schenker
Delta / Portercable is now owned by Black & Decker / Dewalt
Matthew,
Black & Decker bought Pentair tools last year. Pentair included Delta, Porter Cable, and more (see link on bottom). This move makes me really wonder what will happen to quality end of those manufacturers. I am facing a similar decision as your original question. I am looking at buying an 8" jointer. I am leaning toward the Yorkcraft because of a few factors. First the price, and second, there are basically only 3 makers of jointers right now in my price range (not counting European makers). Just food for thought.
Eric
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NTF/is_5_12/ai_n6229871
"When it comes time to die, make sure all you have to do is die." -Jim Elliot
I can't keep up with this!I understand different brand names existing under one parent company, but Delta, Porter+Cable, DeWalt, Powermatic, Pentair are all companies that we are used to seeing as independent entities, suddenly part of a conglomerate that never existed before.Are the individual companies in the conglomerate maintaining their unique character? If they are all just going to have the same components, I don't see the use in keeping all the various brands alive. It just confuses matters.Maybe all the tool manufacturers should just be bought by one company. The company can be called TOOLS INC., and everything you buy will be made by them.
I think a lot of us share your frustration over this issue of who makes what, but it also seems to me that what we as users of these tools should focus on is the quality of the tools first, and cost second, regardles of the brand stamped on them. Based on what I've observed here on Knots, most posters put price over quality because tools are optional in their lives or discretionary purchases for them, not tools needed for making a living. When Powermatic decided to enter the small shop/consumer tool market in the mid to late 90s, having seen the sales being generated by Delta, Grizzly and others mentioned above, it was a decision to add to their industrial/commercial lines of tools, many of which were not even in the woodworking field, and they did so by adding imported tools. They called their import line (which was largely a "me, too" line made in the same places as other brands) their "Artisan" line. It was represented by a separate catalog and different sales and distribution modes. Their Powermatic Model 66 Table Saw was not in the Artisan lineup; it was a commercial item like many of their other woodworking tools (floor-model planers, mortisers, drill presses, etc.) Their philosophy at the time was that quality could be controlled by normal QC practices regardless of where the products were fabricated. For a time I believe this was an acceptable business model alongside their industrial lines. However -- and I have no inside or special knowledge about this, just speculation -- new ownership and rapidly changing market dynamics seemed to begin to have and impact on their business model which has lead to less product differentiation and quality control. I don't know about their industrial tool line today, but I do know that for many years their competitive advantage lay in a proprietary casting and aging process which resulted in high quality castings in a shorter time. This may no longer be true. All in all, the whole small shop/home tool market is undergoing consolidation with apparent sacrifices in quality showing up as profitability is being squeezed by greater competition and lower retail pricing. Speaking broadly, it would seem there are only three basic choices for tool companies -- cut costs and cheapen products, merge with others to improve efficiencies and overhead issues, or shrink the product line and just keep the profitable items. A fourth option is to to close down and I have an idea that choice lies within the decision to merge. Or, maybe it's just that the key people in a major brand are just getting on and don't want to make all the shifts necessary to keep up with rest and simply decide it's time to give up the fight, cash in the chips and move on? Some of what I've said above is based on a visit to the Powermatic factory in TN six or so years ago when I had a chance to spend some time with one of their VPs and tour their factory. Other than that, however, I have no special insider's information about the company other than what I've picked up from reps and dealers. But to get on point about buying decisions for woodworkers, I think we need to change along with the changes in manufacturers and consider what is most important among the usual trade-offs -- quality, price, service, availability, support. In some ways, it's like buying a Lie-Nielsen hand tool; user recommendations tell you they are great tools, you look around for the best deal, and you bite the bullet. Then you decide in your own business whether you want to meet the competition or do good work.
Edited 7/2/2005 12:55 pm ET by JimMacMahon
Jim is right on target. What these companies are selling to is "the market" which is us. I am as guilty as the next guy/gal but how often when we shop for tools do we say, " I am going to buy the best quality tool available"? More often we say, " I am going to get the best tool within a certain price ( and that is not the high end price)". If "the market" buys less expensive tools then don't blame the sellers of these tools for trying to satisfy us. A few exceptions like Lie-Nielsen come to mind when we, the market, go the whole way but mostly we go less expensive.
It's all Grizzly's fault. The competition is falling apart, trying to keep up with the business principles of global economy and automated Supply Chain.
"It's all Grizzly's fault. The competition is falling apart, trying to keep up with the business principles of global economy and automated Supply Chain."
I had to chuckle when I read your statement.
If no one had ever purchased Grizzly tools then what.
The average everyday consumer did this to themselves by looking for less expensive products.
It has nothing to do with one particular manufacture or retailer without the consumer neither the manufacture or retailer would make a penny. The consumer drives the market.
I have a old Delta cabinet saw 1953.
A Delta Lathe 1930's
A Jet tool.
DeWalt Panel-saw
Some Sears tools old 1967 & new in the last 8 years.
Oh & yes I do have some Grizzly tools & a Shopfox tool.
Yes some of my tools are not the high priced brands but as I thought over all the major tools I've purchased I realized that I didn't necessarily purchase on price as much as I did what tool would do for me.
It does help that I live close to the main Grizzly store. As well as a pretty well stocked Western Tool Store.
"The average everyday consumer did this to themselves by looking for less expensive products."Actually, I think it's an odd sort of collusion between manufacturers and buyers.Market share and margin drive the busineses, lower price drive the customer.Business strives for margin (price minus cost) times volume = profit
Customers strive for low price high value...To drive profit, you can lower your price to get volume but that cuts into margin. Or you can lower your cost to drive up margin. But that has it's risks as well. Take out too much cost, and the quality of the product suffers.The greater number of competitors in a specific market, the harder it is to keep prices high or dominiate in volume so the only way to make profit is to lower cost.Now a way around that is to offer something no one else offers - Like Festool or SawStop - the differentiators give the vendor the opportunity to charge more (margin) (though volume may not get high because of price).My 2 cents...
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark-
Nice response. Its good to hear the voice of logic, reason and common sense.
Some just do not get it!Thank you,
The Great Marko
"It's all Grizzly's fault. The competition is falling apart, trying to keep up with the business principles of global economy and automated Supply Chain."
Bart - I think it is actually our fault with our Wally World type mentality. You are correct that the consumer drives the market. The consumers demand cheap, cheap, cheap and the investors demand a rate of return so, we the consumer, are getting exactly what we deserve. You don't have to look very far through this site to see evidence of that.
If we as consumers demand better quality and service then we need to be willing to put our money where our mouth is and be willing to pay for it. I for one, will continue purchasing quality over cost every day. If the tool you purchase does not do what you need it to do, it is a waste of time and money.
Steve
I don't know if I buy the "buy the cheapest mentality" as much as others. Nor do I blame Grizzly. They, like Norm, have made it possible to share woodworking with many people, andI am grateful for the many woodworkers I've met and shared times with.Also, if the cheapest only mentality prevailed, then there would be no Lie Nielsens, no Lee Valley, no Ray Isles. Also no MiniMax, no Festool, no Felder, no Laguna.Probably no Woodcraft--I remember when you had to go to Garrett Wade (I live in NY) to get the only quality hand tools in North America.Delta got itself sold to a company that believes in making reasonable quality tools at lower prices, rather than the higher priced, better quality models. It's a shame. There is always a market for quality, and I think the Canadian company, General, is now well positioned to become the leader in middle level price and industrial quality tools. Delta is now Sears in my opinion, and that ain't no compliment.
Steve,
I agree. That's why I am hesitating as I look at both Powermatic and Delta. The more I am learning, the less I like either one.For me, Festool products have taken the place of any tool that this company can make -- circular saws, jigsaws, routers, sanders, dust collectors, cordless drills, planers. Unfortunately, Festool doesn't make table saws and they don't make bandsaws, otherwise I would get one from them.You're right. If the majority of consumers buy lower quality, and lower safety standards, the manufacturers start making tools that meet those sub-standard expectations. But what happens to those of us who were never willing to settle for less? Are we supposed to stop buying American-made products altogether? I guess so. In the end, if enough of us bought Laguna and Minimax and Festool, perhaps the American manufacturers would wake up. Or maybe they'll always be happy supplying the lower-quality demands.
In the end, if enough of us bought Laguna and Minimax and Festool, perhaps the American manufacturers would wake up. Or maybe they'll always be happy supplying the lower-quality demands.What American manufacturers? Thats the deal, those American companies havent been manufacturing for quite a few years. The "Proudly Made in USA" label is a ruse brought to us by our lawmakers who lowered the quantity of a machine that had to be sourced in the US. Assembled in USA is more apropos......and actually, if the quality is there then we really shouldnt care....a very big if sometimes. So we are left with buying quality no matter where it comes from. I'll vote for that always. Aloha, mike
I am not sure what some of you are complaining about. Certainly, it seems that some of the old line brands have made a strategic marketing decision to cheapen up their stuff, so it can be priced more attractively for the mass market. But on the other hand, the Europeans in particular have clearly sensed this shift, and some are rushing to produce machines for the high end segments. I am thinking of folks like Festool, MiniMax et al. But you had best be ready to dig (much) deeper in your pocket for these tools. Sorry to say, we're seeing this same process across the broad spectrum of consumer products. Most of the old brand names are not what they used to be, and we're all forced to adjust to the new reality.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Bart,
My old man, when still alive, made furniture for a living, but also had a share ownership in a medium sized steel manufacturing business.
He built his own table saw, the trunion, motor and pulleys were purchased the rest he built himself. The top was hot rolled carbon steel plate, welded, annealed and surface ground. He also made his own bandsaw, wood lathe and a few others. They were top class, as were his furniture.
Perhaps one day, when I have too much time on my hands (retirement), I'll build a sliding table saw with a 304 stainless top. No more paste wax and *&^% the Asian imports.
It will probably cost the price of a few Grizzly's though, there is no longer a market for high end, medium to small sized woodworking machines.
BART:
You said it right. I can not beleive that some individuals boo hoo about manufacturers (Grizzly) destroying the quality in attempts to provide competitive costs. I have news for everyone..........
This concept is called FREE TRADE I.E. CAPITALISM!!!! IT HAS A FOUNDATION IN DEMOCRACY.
SOME PEOPLE ARE SO DARN IGNORANT IT MAKES WE WANT TO SPIT!!!!!!!!
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Well my goodness, by all means spit...wouldn't be caught dead buying any them Commie tools, like that left tilting Unisaw...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon:
Maybe I will spit.............
Also, your reference to "commie" is not called for. It is degrading and demeaning. Before you even go there---- No, I am not Asian or a member of the communist party. I am just a semi intelligent, white, male that is sick and tired of hearing ignorant individuals like yourself boo hoo about Asian made products.
No- I am not upset and I am not trying to be hostile towards you. I am extremely frustrated with the lack of understanding of free trade, global economies and consumer markets within this forum.
PS- Have a nice day.
Irwin Fletcher
aka Marko
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Marko,
I read his comment as an attempt at humor - a play on words having to do with "left tilt." While I could be wrong, I inferred absolutely nothing racist or pejorative in his remarks.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Glad to see somebody else making the same interpretation as me.
Now Marko is still going to be spitting-because he did not see the joke.
Hi Philip,
A tempest in a teapot?
Not the first time we've witnessed a reaction that seemed disproportionate to an inferred insult on this forum.
We all have subjects to which we are sensitive; some of us seem to react more swiftly and vehemently than others - swatting flies with a sledgehammer, so-to-speak.
Too bad: invective and vitriol are seldom useful persuasive tools, nor are they effective when attempting to elicit empathy or understanding.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazz, I'd give it a rating of about Force 2 on the scale of teapot storms-doesn't look like it will develop into anything of epic proportions.
You are quite correct about vitriol and invective.Humour with a sting often works much better-and provides entertainment for the gallery.
The joke as you call it is thinly disguised in one of our forums favorite brands=Minimax, as its called in the US is actually SCMI, highly respected but unknown by its "real" name- Societe Communiste Machinerie Internationale. Begun in Italy...... Okay, everyone lean left!!
Aloha, mike
Mike ,
now you may be adding a new dimension to the topic-but no doubt glaucon will clarify things soon.
You are certainly correct about SCM-magnificant machinery. Strangely enough, nobody on your side of the planet appears to know about their flagship range-called SCM Invincible.
Strangely enough, nobody on your side of the planet appears to know about their flagship range-called SCM Invincible.Philip, my side of the world has a big boogeyman for "communist" anything. Thats why they like the name Minimax I suppose. Us Americans are really a trip at times....the rest of the world already knows this..... Aloha, mike
Mike, the minimax stuff I have seen is comparatively light weight to the Invincible machines.
You'll get over the communist thing-one or two new things are developing.
Jazz:
Maybe it was an feeble attempt at humor. I can not say for certain. Only Glaucon knows. That's one of the downsides of communicating via email--- there is no method to see facial expressions, tone inflections and other nonverbal cues.
Maybe I am being too sensitive. Maybe others are not being sensitive enough. It appears by the short string of emails that some feel that I need to "chill". I really do not need to chill. I am not hot under the collar or upset. I was simply stating my feelings and opinions on the issue.
My passion should not be construed as being hostile or angery. I have strong opinions like most others on this forum. Passion is good!
Take care,
MarkoThank you,
The Great Marko
I purchased a Powermatic 54A jointer about one year ago with mixed results. The machine itself is great and worthy of the yellow paint. I have not had a single complaint. The handbook that came with the machine was not so good. During the assembly process I noticed several instructions that, frankly, had nothing to do with the machine in front of me. I muddled through and got it put together.<!----><!---->
However, by then I was suspicious and started working my way through the book and noticed some bugs in the operating instructions. One glaring problem was the nearly-absent section regarding machine rabbeting. There was an illustration that appeared to address the subject and absolutely no text. I got on the web and pulled down the manual for the 54A's big brother the Powermatic 8" machine and the Grizzly G0500. Both had fairly similar rabbeting sections. The Powermatic book had nearly the same illustration as my 54A manual and about 1-2 pages of instruction. Clearly someone deleted some text. The book also included several more less obvious problems. <!---->
I emailed Powermatic's service folks and received a same-day response that was defensive - they basically told me I didn't know anything about instruction manuals. I responded that I had 30+ years of technical experience including technical writing and engineering proposals and I did recognize an editorial error. I also mentioned that their response was worthy of newsgroup posting. Next day - a big apology and admission that the book had been reviewed by their project manager and would be fixed.<!---->
Some tell me that technical manuals are for wimps. In my view the kind of errors evident in this manual are symptomatic of other problems. Again the machine has performed well but it leaves me in doubt of the product's future.<!---->
Wow, Marko, take a handful of chill-pills, preferably washed down with a homebrew, and relax!Maybe you could swallow, instead of spitting. The sidewalks are disgusting enough already.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Well, after long contemplation, I decided to get the Powermatic 14" bandsaw. I really could not find anything I liked better in my price range, and when it came right down to it, I still trust Powermatic more than Delta.My initial impressions will be posted in another thread.
I don't think you'll be disappointed. As I've said, I like mine a lot. Definitely get the riser block. It's totally worth the $75 to have 12" height capacity. It means you'll need 105" blades. I really like the Timberwolf/Viking blades FWIW. I really think quality blades are crucial in all machines from bandsaws to tablesaws to chisels and planes. It's where the steel meets the wood after all that woodworking is accomplished.
I also got Powermatic's dedicated mobile base for this saw. It works a treat, and if you'll be moving the saw around your shop at all, I highly recommend it. No assembly required.
The only tough bit on the saw assembly process comes when mounting the motor to achieve proper tension on the drive belt. You need four hands, so get a helper or have some scrap wood handy to use as supports (under the motor) and wedges/spreaders (between the motor and the underside of the stand top).
As for installing the riser, its a cramped fit for the wrenches to tighten the main bolt holding the assemblies together, but can be donewith a 5/8ths table saw arbor wrench and an adjustable crescent wrench - it might be easy with automotive ratchets, but I don't have those. Also, the instrustions on the riser set show the new plastic channel for the blade on the left side mounted backwards - so ignore that and mount it just like the old one you just removed was mounted.
Enjoy your saw.
Samson,
I wrote a full first impression already, but one thing you said interests me. You had to adjust the belt tension for the motor puleys? I had to do this as well with my Jet 14", but with the new saw, the belt had good tension right out of the box.
Mine came in pieces. The motor was not mounted in the stand. The belt was not on either pulley etc. Did yours come assembled?
Samson,
Yes, mine was assembled. The motor was mounted. I just had to install the belt.Sounds like there is some variation in Powermatic's production?Sounds like we may have received different manuals, since you and I have starkly different things to say about it.Interesting...
I got mine from Amazon, FWIW. Came in two boxes - one for the stand and motor, the other with the saw housing pretty much assembled. Just as it describes on page 11 of the manual.
I believe the manual is available on the Powermatic site:
http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/partfiles/M_1791216K.pdf
It looks like mine. Does it look like yours?
The part I was referring to with respect to the motor is step 9 on page 13. My belt was not a V, but a flat ribbed one.
If you didn't losen the nuts on the motor mounting, how did you get the belt on? Were you able to just roll/spin it on? Did you take off a pulley?
Samson,
I worked it on a little, then spun the pulley. It slipped into place after a bit. Then I did the 1/2" flex test.
Glaucon,
Do I see a fairly subtle joke there? Saliva not withstanding. <g>
<<Do I see a fairly subtle joke there? Saliva not withstanding.>>
Apparently a little too subtle... I'm off to get my rabies shot...
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 7/23/2005 12:50 pm ET by GLAUCON
<<Do I see a fairly subtle joke there? Saliva not withstanding.>>Apparently a little too subtle... I'm off to get my rabies shot...some may need a distemper shot as well <G>
Matthew,
Suggest that is bad luck. I get best value online, excellent support, even beyond warrantee.
I have purchased around $20,000 online, never had a bad experience. So far I needed a gib bolt replacement on a planer, during warrantee and a gas spring, out of warrantee. Both parts arrived free within two days.
I bought a Delta 14-in bandsaw last year and wish I'd coughed up the extra $ for the Laguna...Delta had a bait & switch campaign on their X5's for rebates and mobile bases (mine never came; they just sent me 3 books of coupons); Woodcraft just blames it on the BDK takeover.
sorry to hear about your delta x5 rebate trouble. last december (at woodcraft's delta day), i bought the x5 bandsaw and jointer, and the rebates arrived about a month after i sent the forms, but i got the 690 router and the tenoning jig instead of the bases. i also sent in a bunch of other delta and porter cable rebates, and all the rebates arrived "on time" (a month after i sent the forms). i also bought the 12" dewalt SCMS, and that rebate took almost 3 months. and then, i bought the x5 unisaw at the end of jan, and had to wait 4 months for the mobile base... the story i got from the delta rebate people was that a number of mobile bases (which had been subcontracted) were found to have weld problems and had to be sent back, causing the backlog. one of the staff at woodcraft bought the x5 unisaw about a month after i did, and i think he's still waiting for his base...i wonder if the popularity of the rebates was/is causing delta a problem... i noticed their rebate policy changed july 1, and now they're not offering mobile bases. :-)at any rate, i'm very happy with the x5 tools: manufacture quality seems really good, and with some minor setup tweaking, they're holding accuracy beautifully.cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
My own opinion is that Delta decided to become the new Grizzly. And General is the old Delta. WMH bought out Powermatic, saw that Delta sank so low, why bother making the super heavyweights, since the Euro machines are filling in there.
Delta used to stand for industrial strength, quality machines. You paid more for the nameplate, since it included a customer service program that really wasn't needed. N ow they need it, but still are not set up to help people. Jet imported machines a bit better than Grizzly, so also did not back up their stuff. Grizzly always needed a better customer service to deal with the constant flow of parts missing and breaking, as the machines were less expensive for a reason. Computers and globalization led to a more consistent product with Grizzly, but they already have a service dealership in place.
Delta refused to service or help out on a brand new, but defective, DJ-15, plus they then really shafted a friend on his new lathe. I never bought Delta again. Since then, I did buy a MiniMax bandsaw (spectacular equipment AND service), and a Felder jointer and saw/shaper (also amazing equipment, and very good service to boot). Of course, they are very expensive machines, but Delta has been around a long time, so it has no excuse.
Jet may want to eventually phase out Powermatic, but I would not be shocked to see B and D see Delta fade away. They are huge, and still trading on their reputation that is no longer warranted. They can't match Grizzly, Jet or Wilke on price, they seem to be unwilling to invest in people as a service company, so really, on what basis will people want to start buying their constantly lower standard machines. There is a market for quality, and there is one for discounts. The market for middle end is the Taurus and Camry of tools. And for those cars, you can still insert the key, and drive it for 50,000 miles with little difficulty. Delta had better learn that quickly.
It's saddening to hear these stories about Delta and Powermatic.I grew up with Delta and Powermatic being the watch words in quality and the choice of most cabinet shops.I've got a shop full of Delta tools, mostly from the sixties. The only compliant I've had is Delta's shipping fees on parts orders. A friend has a similar shop full of Powermatic stuff, all made when PM was independent.As Wilke is not too far up the road, and Grizzly's East Coast facility isn't too far, I guess they'll be my next choice for stationary equipment.Still, it's sad.Leon Jester
I've now been waiting for over three months for the mobile base which I selected as my "free tool" for having purchased the X5 heavy duty shaper. According to email that I received from Delta I should have received the base by now. Guess I'll have to break down and buy a mobile base for the shaper, as it's a royal paid to move around on the cement floor without wheels of some sort under it.
In defense of the shaper, I love the new fence included with the unit. It's a vast improvement over the fence on my original shaper.
Update: as of 7/11 the mobile base has arrived.
Edited 7/11/2005 11:10 pm ET by woodhacker
There is always the SawStop table saw if you can afford the $2600 hit. It is suposed to be of high quality construction plus the great safety features.
Personaly I think every pulic school wood shop should have these saws as standard equipment.
Then there are the older tools. That with a little paint & minor tweeking will set you up with a fine tool.
This is a litlle off topic but I heard something that I had to comment on when someone mentioned their John Deere tractor. It is commonly stated that the big box stores can undersell the local dealers because they buy in such volumn. At least in the case of John Deere this is not the case. There is a preset price that all distributors big and small have to sell at on certain series tractors, while they can sell for over that price they can under no circumstance sell below that preset price. If they are caught doing so they loose the J.D. license. Now this gets me to thinking, would it be feasable for the tool makers to adopt a similar policy. That would give us the buyer the choice between initial cost and service after the sale. I am sure that the big guys would still be able to get a substantial discount on their end because they buy in such big volumn. Of course they would have to be very creative to make sales by offering free shipping or accessories.
John Deer does that so the small dealers (where Deer started) will still sell deer products.Channel Management - it's a pain in the neck...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
There were so many conflicting stories regarding Powermatic, and whether or not it was still US made and its quality, that I wrote directly to customer service. Here is their verbatim reply - I hope it sets the record straight.
"Quote from our [Powermatic]Technical Service Manager: "The PM 66 has always been a US made saw. The majority of it's parts are manufactured in the southeast United States. The motor is a US made Baldor. There are a few individual components that are made overseas. All of the assembly and Quality Inspections are done at our facility in LaVergne, TN. It is our goal to keep producing this saw in the US and as long as customers will continue to purchase them we will continue to do so."
I trust this information will put those rumors to rest.
Sincerely,
Heather Yuhas
WMH Tool Group
Internet Customer Support"
Regards,
Dan
Cajun Dan,
Does this response apply only to Powermatic, or does it apply to Powermatic as well as Jet? I have been considering a 16" Jet bandsaw as well as a 14" Delta of Powermatic, so this WMH general quality question is relevant.
The quote was for the Powermatic model 66 cabinet saw. All of the Jet tools I own are made in Taiwan. I am not aware of any Jet tools which are labeled "Made in USA", like the PM 66 is.
I bought one of the Delta 14" bandsaws Platinum Edition a year ago. These saws had a 1 1/2 hp motor, and were also labeled "Made in USA".
I don't know whether the quality of USA made tools is better or not.
Edited 7/11/2005 10:16 am ET by Cajun Dan
I bought a package of toothed hole saws one time and one of them was out of round. When I returned them for a replacement, the hardware guy gave me an earful of why-you-should-always-buy-American-made. Then we looked inside the saw and found the telltale "Made In USA label. On the other hand, I bought a set of Forstner bits that were made in Taiwan and they have been great. Hard to generalize.
I purchased a Delta 23-710 sharpening center from Amazon and had to return it because it shook so bad it almost jumped off of my bench.You could see metal shavings under the wheel.It was picked up and replaced by Amazon. The next one was even worse ,with the same shavings under the wheel.It also went back.Both were returns that had been repacked and sold as new.I don't know whose fault it was Delta or Amazon ,but I now own a Makita.
Being an old codger of 85 I can remember when it was impossible for the average DIY guy to afford a planer or good jointer. There were some really rinky dink home type tools on the market and Sears and Montgomery wards sold pretty decent contracters type table saws but most home craftsmen did it with hand tools. I guess it was about forty years ago that one began seeing ads in the DIY magazines for drill presses and band saws, etc made overseas that were priced at a third or less of the cost of American made machinery. I remember buying one of those drill presses and a bandsaw. By today's standards they were pretty crappy, but, hey, with a little rebuilding and tuning up they provided the basis for many home shops and the beginning of the explosuion of woodworking at home. I was still using both tools when I finally sold out my shop last year. Younger people today don't realize how good they have it nor do they realize what has made it possible for many of them to be enjoying the craft of woodworking. Just a different perspective.The fool does what makes himself fell good; the wise man does what makes him feel good about himself.
Yup. Around 1963 0r 64 I pooled every penny I could for a down payment on a Sears radial arm saw, the fist real stationary tool I owned. Until then I was using my grandfather's 100-year old hand tools and an electric sander. That radial arm saw built a lot of stuff (scary as it seems today) and I gave it to my contractor son about 25 years ago so I could buy their latest model. Well, my son still uses that saw on the job site for crosscuts, and I don't even attempt accurate cuts on the "new" one; by comparison with the original it's a piece of crap. Of course I now have a shop full of other stuff, both American and imports, and I'm not unhappy with any of it. You're right, the typical tool buyer doesn't know what a good deal is out there in stationary and portable tools, but then they don't remember black and white TV, either!
I posted this awhile back after I got my 64A. I have three, count 'em, three Accu Fences at my house. The first two were virtually unusable. The third required that one of the faces be shimmed to have both faces perpendicular to the table. Not too big a deal.
The point here, is that the only American made part of the saw (the 64A is made in Taiwan) had the worst quality control. I was told by the seller (a overstock seller of Jet and Powermatic and someone who used to work for Jet) that the Accu Fences were jobbed out. Major blow to my opinion of Powermatic.
Just curious... Is there any chance your overstock seller was selling factory seconds? It sure sounds fishy.
They claimed they were not seconds since they sell new equipment as well, but I never did confirm that with PM. I gave up dealing with PM's customer service after several frustrating experiences and one finally good one. I have been meaning to send a letter to corporate detailing all of the BS, in part to see how they handle that. The outcome will determine if I ever even consider another PM product.
But in the end, whether they were seconds really doesn't matter. The fact that they found their way to market should never have been allowed. The first two were embarrassing pieces of junk. They could be used if re-machined/welded, which I am considering to recoup some of my money.
What is really pathetic is that it had to do primarily with making sure the welding jig was set up square (not exactly rocket science, we aren't even talking about CNC set up). These things looked like a monday morning drunk or an apprentice had welded them together.
Flame,
Probably a topic for the hidden cafe, but all I can tell you is that I have run manufacturing operations all my life. I have run them in Europe, South Africa, the Middle East and here in the US.
I am currently running three factories, two in California and one in Washington State. We use some real high technology stuff. What should be the simplest assignment of my career, is extremely difficult here in the US. It's all about people and the technical skills we can pull into manufacturing. With an unemployment rate of close to 5%, one has to accept the people who wishes to work in manufacturing, we don't have much choice and the skill levels are a real, real, real challenge.
The four year graduate, who is smart, is not interested in working in a factory. Too many opportunities elsewhere.
It will be interesting to see where this thing ends up in the years to come, but as in England, we are fast becoming a service driven economy, something the US does very well.
Willie
PS. Heaven would be if I could make the same living out of woodworking...........................
Great idea to get a direct input from the source, but how can a website like this continue if you stop rumor and speculation?
Yeah but which "individual components." Notice he didn't say which ones. This is how the "made in the USA" game works. He says most parts made in USA but maybe he counts each screw, nut, and washer as an individual part. The major parts we care about, table top, trunions, etc., go still be made abroad and assembled here.
There are a few individual components that are made overseas. All of the assembly and Quality Inspections are done at our facility in LaVergne, TN.A "few individual components" like the cast iron tables and trunions and such. Assembled in America is the word not "Made in USA". This is by federal legislation, folks, that allows assemblies and foreign made components to be labeled US Made. We need to get over it I believe and judge on quality. I do wish these things could be honestly labeled so we could begin to adjust to this reality rather then persist in the sort of false image they leave. In short, alot of this happened becasue most of us didnt want smelting and casting foundries in our neighborhoods. So bring on the world machines so we can figure out who actually makes the best ones. Aloha, mike
what happened to the Powermatic post?
What do you mean?All 68 posts are still on my machine. Are they gone on yours?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
I brought them back by going to the archives and entering a message to myself. I wonder if the editors are trying to control the conversation sometimes. Do you think we bore them? Aloha, mike
I assume by "archives" you mean you clicked on "messages" under the Tools discussion.If there are no posts in a thread, that's what happens. Eventually, if there is no activity for a period of time (I don't know how long), the topic will fall off the Tools list, and then you would have to do a search to bring back the thread.There have been a few times when a thread topic mysteriously disappeared, but that is not what has happened here (at least yet).********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
There have been a few times when a thread topic mysteriously disappeared, but that is not what has happened here (at least yet).We cant let that happen..............
It is really a matter of supply and demand. When price pressure pushes down, higher cost suppliers either leave the market, or go offshore to less expensive production facilities. If quality begins to suffer, consumers begin to search for higher quality producers, e.g. the Festools, Feins and Generals.
Some manufacturers will combine this very well- they will have casting done offshore, but will use high quality components and do the final assembly in an ISO factory, or have a US based Q&A operation to assure final quality.
In the 1970s, Detroit was fat and lazy and made some truly terrible cars. The spike in gas prices in the mid-70s gave Japanese manufactures a chance to truly increase market share with cars that were perceived as better quality and higher mileage. Detroit had to drop its prices, and still could not sell cars- even though there were waiting lists at Toyota and Honda, and customers often had to take cars with "as is" options.
Today, history repeats itself- except that many of the "Japanese" cars are made in Tennesee, California or Canada. Toyota and Honda have figured out how to make good quality cars in or ex-US; GM hasn't a clue.
In the WW tool biz, I suspect Festool et al will see an increase in market share, especially among WWrs who are interested in longevity and quality, and among finish carpenters and others who depend on their tools for their livelihood. This segment of the market will increase, and economies of scale will moderate the price (i.e it is cheaper per unit to design, manufacture, market and distribute 200,000 routers a year than 20,000). B&D will see the loss of this end of the market and might try to recapture it with a "Professional" line of tools that will sell at a premium above the big box price. As long as there is a demand for quality tools (and Lie-Nielsen et al suggest to me that there is), someone will try to fill it. How successful and how costly the tools are will depend on how large the demand is.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon, I think Powermatic's decline is not strictly a matter of supply and demand, because as you point out, there is a continuing demand for high-quality tools and a customer base who will pay extra for that quality. It seems to me that Powermatic made the decision to change their business model - they were no longer satisfied with the smaller market of pros who were willing to pay for lifetime tools. They saw how much larger the high-end hobbyist and budget-minded pro markets are, and how Delta was succeeding there, and decided that's where they wanted to be. All else follows from that decision."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I agree. That's why I (and others who feel as I do) will buy from another supplier. Stanley still sells more planes than LN, but not to me.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I must say as a hobbiest (I wouldn't dare call my efforts "high-end") I love my Powermatic machines and am completely satisifed with them. I got my 64 A table saw last year for around $750 and it does everything I probably will ever ask of it quite well. I will probably also last me a very long time given my light use relative to a pro shop. I also recently got a 14 inch bansaw (with riser block) from Powermatic and cannot say enough good about it. I know "better" tools exist, but these should serve me very well for a very long time. I hope to get a Powermatic 6 inch jointer as soon as I can afford it too; I've heard nothing but good things about it.
I don't know exactly what Powmatic used to be I guess. I also don't know what it is people think is lacking about present Powermatic efforts. I would assume pros are buying different models - cabinet saws and 20" planers and such. Are these things so inferior to what they used to be? How so?
In the end, all of these companies are striving to meet our demands as consumers. If someone thought they could make money by introducing European style table saws to the US, or making _____ stationary tool the way they used to, they'd be doing it. We either don't want it or are not willing to pay for it I'm guessing.
Not everyone claims to have had a bad time with Powermatic tools.
They don't season their cast iron any more and that's probably THE most important step in making a quality saw.
Seasoning of cast iron, is a process used for pots and pans.
I have never heard of anyone doing this to castings which are destined for machining.
Please explain a little more
Yes cast iron tools are seasoned by some manufactures they just pile it outside & lets it set for about a year before they machine it. it helps relieve the internal stresses.
Someone who tries to stress relieve cast iron castings, by aging, or precipitation in ambient temperature, will never, never, get any of my business. Neither in my profession, nor in my woodworking hobby.
To do this properly and completely, under 800 degrees F, without very careful controlled cooling back to ambient afterwards, is not possible.
Those who practice what you suggest, have no knowledge of metallurgy.
Willie, I don't think anybody suggested that throwing them outside was the one and only part of the seasoning process.
Willie,
I read long ago that Harley-Davidson seasoned their cast iron cylinders the same way. The description was of a yard full of pallets of the things, aging to relieve casting stresses before machining. Correct or not, it was apparently an accepted practice in the past.
Regards,
Ray
Joiners,
Apologies for being frank, but if industry today in the 21st century try and "season" castings by storage and time, we would have to build a time machine and travel back to the 18th century.
Imagine industry "seasoning" all castings for 12 months, automotive engines, exhaust manifolds, industrial machinery and the list goes on and on and on..... This would be the biggest steel shortage in history, followed by the biggest stock-pile in history.
Seasoning cast iron by storage is a myth and a very rudimentary excuse for proper stress relieving, by heat treatment, or casting technology.
Perhaps that is why we never see Harley Davidson's on the race track.
Edited 7/20/2005 1:03 pm ET by Willie Martins
"Perhaps that is why we never see Harley Davidson's on the race track..."
You may want to check out this link.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Racing/racing_history.jsp?locale=en_US
You may want to check out this link.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Racing/racing_history.jsp?locale=en_US
I was waiting for that to pop up.
I knew the answer but didn't know where to find it. Ha Ha great come back.
OK, OK,
Have to admit I'm not a Harley fan.
Let's compare to something which needs engineering excellence though, such as racing around a track at speeds of 150mph, with corners, for a few hours.
Can you find anything in the Superbike world championships?
With all the vibration on a Harley, at real high speeds, you need a sign, which says "Beware of parts falling off"
BTW, I've heard most Harley parts also come from the far East these days.
Well now seeing as I really don't know but I suppose that seeing as how they build stock cars special for high speed wouldn't they do the same for Harley's ?
You should take a tour of one of their facilities some time it's quite impressive. They purchase all American steel. Costs more, but they insist that they support jobs here. They have people that have worked there for close to 40 years. Waiting lists to buy the product. Not bad for a machine that only vibrates. They did hit a rough stint back when MF bought them and quality suffered. When top management convinced AMF to sell it, they got the buy in of the unions and turned it around. They are studied in most business schools on how to deal with unions and run a company well. Name another product that people are willing to tattoo the company name into their arms. When I toured the York PA plant where soft tails are made, I met a guy from Australia that came there just to see where they are made. I bought my 2002 Soft tail Deuce and can get pretty much the purchase price for it now. Not bad.
Live to ride, ride to live.
... or as we say it around here
Eat to Ride, Ride to eat.
Ride Safe partner!
Harley never ran in World Superbike as far as I know. They ran in the early '90s to 2000 or so in AMA Superbike. I think Miguel DuHamel finished 3rd at Mid Ohio one year by riding the wheels off of the thing. After he went back to Honda, the VR-1000 was pretty much an also-ran, except for the podium finishes Pascal Picotte got on it. From then until they canned the program, they were lucky to break into the top ten.
Bart, AMA has homologation requirements, so the bikes you see can actually be purchased (they're modified production bikes), as well as the parts. Well, maybe not the parts the factory guys use, but you'll get pretty darn close. Not like nascar, where the only thing factory about the car is the shape (sorta). For Harley, the AMA waived the homologation requirements to help them out, meaning even with a purpose-built roadracer Harley couldn't beat the production-based machines of the other makers after working at it for a decade. Sad.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I used to roadrace (WERA), so you inadvertently got my interest. Just for the record, I have a Powermatic 54A jointer. I love it.
FWIW, I have a PM 66 ts and a 54A jointer. The table saw was my second serious power tool, about 8 years ago when they were still shippinng Biesemeyer fences. The jointer I got less than a year ago. I'm pleased with both. The Biesemeyer fence seems to have a concave section about .008" deep near the blade that I discovered after getting a dial indicator for tuneup, but it hasn't seemed to affect performance. No other issues with either tool.
My next big tool will most likely be a bandsaw. I'm inclined either to go "value" with something like Jet or Rikon (I don't trust mail order so probably not Griz), or save my nickels and dimes until I can afford a high end tool such as Minimax.
Heck if you have some Bucks you could buy a BMW 999 & go real fast but if you make a mistake Scotty may have to beam you up.
WERA!
Bringing back some old memories there (memories of spending lots of money!).
Sorry, had to wax nostalgic a little. I did post earlier regarding my Powermatic experience, so I haven't totally ignored the subject.
Now back to our previously scheduled discussion.
so what are the best world tools if PM doesnt cut it anymore? Aloha, mike
Powermatic used to season all their castings and advertised they did.....
You're right. They used to.
One of the things that differentiated PM tools from others was (is) a patented process for curing castings.
I'm pretty sure Festool already does this. I don't think you can discount them without Festool approval.
Sounds GOOD but GREED seems to be the order of Sales these days!
Greed is a prime motivator for sure. We all do it...... aloha, mike
mike,
from need to greed. at first, a tool company makes tools, then they grow, and at some point the main thing they want to produce is money. it's a cycle: where is it made? how much does it cost?
i do like these threads where humor is inserted into a 'heated' discussion. you're firing 'blanks', but all they hear is the noise and puff up.
in manufacturing the name of the game is survival. the tools ( right tool, right application, right price) help you survive.
in the hobby shop. the tools ( r.t.,r.a.,r.p.) help you relax, relax, relax.
thanks mike,
j
Matt,
I cannot tell you anything about Powermatic's current business practices, but the vintage Powermatic tablesaws we have at school have endured the ham-fisted ministrations of 600+ students per semester for years on end with hardly a whimper.
Contrast these seasoned machines with two the brand new Laguna tablesaws we received last year, and I'd search long and hard for a vintage Powermatic before I even considered purchasing one of the new Lagunas, which need considerably more time to work out some conspicuous and troublesome bugs that left both saws inoperable for most of the last semester; the Euro-style riving knives are far better than the splitters found on typical American made tablesaws, and I really like their phenolic throat plates, but they haven't proven themselves trouble free by a long shot.
If I had the money and space (and a ready source), I wouldn't hesitate to buy a venerable old Yates, Oliver, or Delta either.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
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