Having subsribed to FWW and FHB for (only) the last 7 years and read these forums for tha past 5, I begin to wonder if we have exhausted at least the major topics/advances in our crafts. The latest power tool vs hand tool “discussion”, with the apparently obligatory diatribe and “flame” messages, plus a seemingly increasing repetivity in the above publications articles prompted this thought. Just out of curiousity I did an archive search on the last 10 topics I saw here and found previous discussions on 7 with no new information this time around.
To be clear, I’m not complaining, criticising nor claiming to know it all and still feel enough of a newcomer to the craft to not be of much help to others, but just wondering if others experience a similar sense of it’s getting more and more difficult to cull out the wheat from the chaff and if so what do you do about it? For me this situation is exacerbated by subscribing to more than one woodworking magazine with the often redundancy between their articles.
Perhaps this is why some of the “old faithfuls”, like that Scots fellow who emigrated to the colonies (USA) and then returned to a more civized part of the UK (you know who you are) no longer post here. If so it’s a pity because, at least for me, their valuable contributons are sorely missed. Of course this post itself is, in part, a repitition of past discussions on topics like having a “beginners” forum or “advanced’ section etc. etc. Not what I reccomend put it is a puzzlement. I do recall how grateful I was at finding a site where no question was considerd stupid and being thankful for all the help I received both here and at FHB. Anyway, time to return to the workshop. All flame messages will be treated with the disdain they deserve!! <grin>
Replies
The day you quit learning is the day you die. And, if your not dead, you may as well be.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Hmmm, in which case I'm nowhere near expiring! It's just that it gets more difficult to learn more on this specific subject. Of course application is a different issue all together (as is my spelling!).
I agree with you on the magazine situation. I no longer subscribe to any woodworking magazines because they all were feeling like they were covering the same road again and again. How many table saw reviews do you need to read, how many articles on hand-cut dovetails, etc.? After you've read a couple hundred articles on various joint techniques and gone through several project plans, you start feeling like you're really not learning anything new from the magazines.
I've found that reading books and magazines gets you into the advanced beginner stage. To go further requires something more. You have to start going to workshops, travel around the country to meet actual woodworkers doing new kinds of projects.
But I do not think there is an end to knowledge. There is just an end to the knowledge available from a specific source.
That may well be the most profound thought I have ever seen in this forum.
Thanks,
Dan
This brings up an interesting subject regarding not just this forum, but a lot of Internet forums. I think forums like this have a broad enough appeal, and enough new people coming on board that discussions tend to run in cycles. Indeed, that's what started the whole FAQ concept - people recycling the same questions over again on the original newsgroups. Almost any topic and subject has a "lowest common denominator" of information that newcomers have to learn and work through as they explore the subject. On a public forum like this it's difficult to build on top of what's already been discussed and explored when new people keep coming on board (that's not meant as a criticism, just an observation...) and asking basic stuff. In a way it would be nice if we could "all grow together" as we explore the craft and learn new things, and be able to share this with others through discussions of design, techniques, market trends, etc. without having the discussion cluttered with "what table saw should I buy?" posts.
But it may also be a reflection of the way we are in our everyday lives, too. When we meet with other woodworkers do we talk about design, market trends, etc.? No.....we talk about table saws, wood, jigs and those things that are tangible. The more "enlightened" topics are usually too vague, artsy......
Maybe we just need a new "design" or "advanced" category 8^)
Having said that, I believe this forum is one of the more interesting and "serious" woodworking forums around.
Oh, I'm still hanging around and posting, Limey. Pressure of work has reduced my contributions perhaps, and I have to more carefully choose the topics I get involved in. I'm always pretty fast out the blocks if sheep are mentioned for instance.
As to the repetitive nature of woodworking magazines and the questions posed at forums There is a steady stream of new woodworkers that have questions needing answers, so it's not surprising that the carousel goes round and round. More experienced, more skilled, and more knowledgeable woodworkers are better able to solve their own problems and have less need to ask questions basic questions.
It always adds a bit of spice to a forum when an experienced furniture maker poses a real brain teaser though, ha, ha. Slainte.
Glad to hear that you're still hanging about. The only point I would make about newbies on this, or any other forum for that matter, is that it may be even more useful to them, and certainally courteous, to make use of the archive search function before leaping in with a (repetitive) question. However, I would agree that better they ask the question than suffer in silence and, perhaps, reap the worst consequences of ignorance ..... injury to body and/or pride!
Limey
There is no limit to knowledge of WW. Sam Maloof once told me "no one knows it all and never will". If anyone tells you they do, time to grab the "hip-waders" and shovel. It's getting deep.
I think that someone on the advanced level gets tired of the same questions all the time. Especially if they do it "day-in", day-out" for a living. When I get tired of answering or asking questions, I just lurk till I feel I have a question that needs to be asked or run into a question by a newbie that doesn't get much response. Especially then will I jump in.
I feel a responsiblity to the new folks to get those same "old" questions answered. They don't ask them out of boredom but out of need to know. If someone doesn't take the time and patience to answer a question because it has been asked many times, you are fore-saking those that "passed the info" to you and expected you will pass it down the line.
WW hasn't evolved over 5000 years because once those that know and know they know didn't share it with those they don't know and wish they knew. Someone that knew took the time. Why shouldn't they? Do you suppose that somewhere out there, there is someone that just jumped out of the crib, picked up some tools and immediately starting building high-grade furniture. (With the exception of Dubh, but I suspect he got here on a space-ship to help build those pyramids .... putting on my flak jacket) You would have a hard time convincing me it happened. ha.. ha.. ha..ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 2/11/2004 4:45:16 PM ET by SARGE
Please see my reply to Sgian re newbees.
LIMEY
I agree and dis-agree. Technically you are correct. Let me speak for one that is not as technical. I have been WW for 31 years, but I have been on computers for under two. My wife showed me how to get on this forum and I lurked for about two weeks before I ever posted anything.
I took me about an hour to figure out how to enter that first post as I was totally computer ignorant. If you had directed me to go the archives and search I would have been a lost puppy. I would have probably have just gone to the shop instead and figured it out on my own as I had for the 29 previous years.
But I got immediate help from someone that knew the answer to my question and have been around since. Yep, I do know how to use this computer at this point. But if someone had directed me to the archives, I would to this day probably not know what a short fence, crown gaurd or riving knive was. These are things I use daily since I learned about them on this forum.
A person that I'm sure gets tired of answering same questions took the time. I took advantage of what he said and was off and running. (Thank you Slainte) A crown gaurd and short fence is part of my routine and I can pass that info an many other things that I have learned on to those that are interested.
Bottom line I suppose is if you don't feel like answering a question, don't. If you do, do. Someone will I am sure because they remembered that they were once in the same new set of shoes.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Well put, Sarge.
On the log in page--we've all seen it so many times it probably doesn't register anymore--they give great advice on this topic, recommending that after you learn all you need to know, continue to hanfg aroud and help others as you were once helped. I'm still at the bottom of the pile, but am occaisionally, and more and more frequently finding that I have something useful to offer. It's fun to go back and answer questions that I used to wonder about; helps me chronicle my progress and to feel grateful to those who've helped me progress.
So the circular nature of it all doesn't bother me, I guess. I wonder if that'll be true when I've been around as long as Limeyzen..?
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Hi Sarge,
I've been lurking for the last couple of weeks, because I am in the designing and research stages of dining room table and buffet I am going to make this spring.
That's why I haven't had any questions and haven't given a lot of answers, but I agree with you completely. What I've found is that I figure out how I want to do something and then ask the question on the forum. It's the thing I didn't think of, or the part of the process I forgot, or the where can I buy this that brings be back to ask the question.
We don't always agree with answers we get but there may be someone out there who wants that information even if I don't.
I've been on the forum for only about 6 months and have acquired more information and faster then I have gotten any where else through the good graces of the good people who lurk here
ASK
I don't think having an advanced and beginner section would work, because for some reason, human nature leads many people on woodworking internet forums to pretend to have loads of experience when they actually don't, I guess it makes them feel important, I don't know. It's not all that difficult to figure out who is blowing smoke by their posts, it's just frustrating.
I'm not complaining, just stating my observations. It seems that the more someone posts, the more likely their answers are taken as gospel, even when the answers don't necessarilly have good advice or demonstrate an actual knowledge of the subject matter.
I'll have you know JS that my knowledge and writings on all things Dolly and others of her ilk should be taken as definitive and incontrovertible words of wisdom. So too should my utterings on the subject of the warm brown frothing stuff known as beer in this country and gnats pi-- er, urine in the US. My aimless ramblings on rugby and descriptions of my fearless exploits on the pitch on the other hand can generally be discounted as the ravings of a pathetic big girls blouse. Er, what was the question? Slainte. Website
Speaking of beer, I bought a case of Guiness a few weeks ago, long one of my favorites, as big brand American beers make me wince, and there is this ridiculous plastic thing in the bottle that makes noise when you drink it. Pathetic. I pulled it out with a wire clothes hanger and a pair of needle nose pliers. I think they called it a Rocket Widget, I don't get it. After my 8th beer I said that I would buy no more Guiness. I'm crotchety and not a lover of gimmicks.
Oh Dollie, Oh Dollie. My heart palpitates when I see the green like grass bile trickling down your ruminant mouth as you chew your cud, slowly, softly, seductively. I dream of running my hard and calloused hands through your virgin wool, caressing every inch of your chiseled figure.
To tell the truth I get about 3 mags. I cut out alot of them and dont miss them one bit. I have for a while though I only made one project that was ever inna mag. I also only made one project that was inna book.
Now I find I like the mags for interest only info fun reading ect. I learn more from talking to the manufacturers at wood shows or calling them directly and trying/experimenting out in my shop. Example water based finishes, I bought a accuspray gun and the company that I bought the gun from sells enduro finishes. So I buy enduro finish. Its a good finish so when I went from clear poly to say white poly I called them and talked to them about what I needed to do to get a good finish. They said I needed a white undercoat and then the white poly. So I bought there stuff and it and went out into the shop and played with it till I got what I wanted.
But there is one mag I dont know why I get it has mostly jigs and the jigs are so elaborate and time consuming to/costly to make, I just go buy a commmercial jig. I guess I get it for the "collector " in me.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Aha! A fellow afficionado--- of both sheep and beer, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
As a newcomer to both the forum and the craft I understand how the more experienced members may get tired of going over the same things over and over. Sometimes I feel very 'guilty' for asking questions because I know that for some of you it must feel like first grade math. In another post someone said that for the answer to a lot of questions he need go only five feet and have six different books in his hand with the answers inside. Sometimes I feel that my tool dollars should be spent on books exclusively, but I want/need the shop time.
By day I repair cars, have been doing so for the past 15 years. I've had apprentices under me for almost 10 of those years. The answers to almost every question they've asked can be found in the company provided service manuals. Time and again I've told guys how to line up timing marks, adjust valve clearances, etc... It falls to those who know to provide advice to those who don't.
Please don't misinterperet what I'm saying, I'm not on a soapbox wagging my finger at anyone. I'm only suggesting that the skilled trades - WW, Automotive, Carpentry - have apprenticeships for a reason and for those of us who have day jobs and want to do this as a hobby forums like this are the equivalent to our licensed journeymen. We need your help. Not always the answer, but at least the missing sentences from the few books we may have read. Know what I mean?
I've learned a lot from the posts here. Sure the opinions differ sometimes (the US/Canada debacle and the Metric/Decimal/Fraction 'discussion') and maybe things get said poorly or are misinterpereted in print, but we all know that there's more than one way to skin a cat. PLEASE don't think that cat skinning is my other hobby.. it's just a figure of speech.
As for the archives, I think I found them by doing a search. Just typed in HAND PLANES and read a bunch of stuff that came up. Is there a "quick link" like when you click on a topic folder? Is something like this possible?
In the end, on behalf of the newbies(hate that word) THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH! The help you all provide us on the basics gives us the 'tools' we need to not ask so many easy questions.
It is the way of nature for the learned to teach. The mother wolf teaches the pups to hunt, the mother bird teaches the chicks to fly, the parents teach the children to be human (how long does THAT take, anyway?...2&5 year olds)LOL.
With all due thanks and appreciation. Chris
PS; Hope I don't come up as 'GUEST'... had trouble logging in.
LIMEYZEN,
There is of course no limit to knowledge. I look back at the work I did 4 years ago , when I thought I was doing pretty good, and see where I could have used improvement, especially with finishes. Now I have reached a plateau, where I don't except to see any tangible improvement in quality, only speed, and then only minor increase on that point. Woodworking is quite limited in its basic techniques. It can be broken down into sawing , chiseling or planing to a line, with such short a list, it's no wonder there is endless repetition. Of course this discounts the finishing process, the real challenge in making furniture. As one who never took a woodworking class,( other than high school woodshop where my teacher was more interested in tenure than tenons) nor have I ever been in another persons shop, my only option was reading and doing everything wrong that could be done wrong. I would have liked to have had this site, because it is like a woodworking magazine that arrives in your mail box everyday, answering direct questions. The one thing that I think would improve this site, is if more of the frequent contributors would post photos or their work, so those reading the replies, could judge their abilities. I don't read many of the replies, but I sometimes get the impression there are a few of what I call spewers, not doers, in other words they parrot what they've read, but have really not done it.
Rob Millard
Rob
Amen on the finishing process. I have learned more here in just under two years by lurking in that section than I knew in 29 years (same with hand-planes). I started WW in 72' and there was literally nothing available to aid you other than ocassioanlly running into another WW. Highland Hardware finally opened here in Atlanta in the late 70's and that opened a multitude of doors. But finishing has been a weak point for me that with the aid of the Finishing section here is being addressed.
And now you want pictures! I just learned how to get around on the computer. Every time I show a picture of anything someone tells me up-grade the camera, lighting and use better back-drop. You can ocassionally "teach an old dog new tricks", but not that many. I can hear my spouse just after telling her I have to up-grade my photo equipment and skills. Some places an "old Junk-Yard dog" has learned just "not to go". ha.. ha.. ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I know a little about a lot and a lot about little. I know how to do just about everything there is to do when it comes to woodworking. With that said I cannot put most of it into practice. I have read a lot of books, forums, websites, spook to many masters of the woodworking felid. I have looked at and made myself understand the different ways to go from point A to point B and why each path is different yet the results are the same. I can look at just about any problem and come up with several different ways of going about solving it and what the strengths and weaknesses are to each approach.
I will be doing this for the rest of my life. As each day I come hear to not figure out how to cut a dovetail or how to glue up a table top as these are skills that I already have and understand. There is little here that I couldn’t throw out a few different answers or routes to take to solve most peoples questions. But it is the ideas of others that make most threads worth reading. I don’t know how many threads I have read posted by all types (newcomers to old SCOTS) that I haven’t picked up new ideas to doing different things. I have read posts about one topic that has spawned ideas on now to do something totally at the other end of the spectrum of the topic.
I think Sarge said it but I too cannot think of any one else that fell out of the womb and was good at anything right from the get go, the potential may be there but you still need to learn some sort of the basics. We all need to ask questions at some stage of the game to get a understanding before we can take off and become good at what ever it is we wish to do. You never know when the next newbie will come along and turn out to be another true master of the art and go down in history as being famous for his/her work.
With that said I feel that I am an apprentice who has finally learned how to do everything in theory but now just needs a life time to hone those skills to maybe some day become a master of one.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
I agree but I learned alot when I started. I keep subscribing to FWW because they at least have new projects in most issues. I am at the stage where I have stopped reading and buying and am doing. I hope I will help others when I learn enough to help.
I used to go to woodcentral. It got me started. Now I find it over commercialized and too much like a magazine.
I do tire of always being sold. We selldom see articles that cover harbor freight tools or other discounters. We see delta, jet with delta always being the best. I have a 65 powermatic table saw and it is much better than a unisaw.
I view these forums as a way to learn and share ideas and impressions.
Geez, and just when I thought I knew it all....
TDF
If you're tired of something why not give yourself a break and stay away from it for a while? You might be surprised to find that all things learned don't always come from the same place.
Interesting! This has been a mind expanding experience! I started this off merely as a rumination (thus my reason for posting in General Discussion allbeit with a provocative title) and wondering if others shared my view of WW publications and (by far secondarily and not only) this site. Somehow some folks have inferred things that were not my intent esp. the whole topic of new folks to the craft (objection to "newbie" noted and seconded). Perhaps I could have been less obtuse. In my business consulting days a favorite expression was "message received is message sent" so I take responsibilty for what some of you think I meant!!
For clarity, I do believe that one of the contributions, if not obligation, of more experienced crafts people is the propagation of their craft through whatever means is effective for them. This may mean writing books, teaching, lecturing or even answering (redundant) questions on web sites <grin>. However, I have had the fortunate experience of attending a WW course at the local community college and while the instructor was more than capable of answering most of the students questions he often challenged us to research and propse our own solutions. So I wonder if, with all the best intent in the world, we do newcomers and others the best service by every time answering their question (depending on the depth of the question) outright? I know, I know, we don't come here to have more of our time taken up by doing research we just want answers BUT isn't that encouraging an approach, not only to this craft but to life in general, that is not necessarily enduring and/or most effective? As one step perhaps Taunton needs to be clearer about the value of the archives and how to use them. As to old dogs, sheep or whatever being too ancient to learn new ways (of learning?) I thought we'd agreed that there is no end to learning!
How's that for being provocative and flushing out the less opinionated readers?! Time to get off my soap box and go make shavings.
Namaste.
As you said in your first post " time to get back to the workshop". This is where it all happens ; everything else is secondary, including this and other forums. True discovery and its abiding joy come from this type of learning, not from being told all the "answers" here.
D'accord!!
All,
I think we sometime fail to remember that most woodworkers, regardless of their skill level, work alone and without the benefit of tutelage, mentoring and the support that comes from peers. How many have given up this wonderful avocation simply out of frustration because they had no one to point them in a direction where they could begin to see progress. Knowledge is like tools, if you use a bad tool and you have no basis of comparison, you think all tools perform the same.
After 30 years of self-taught cabinet work, I have recently branched out to designing and building furniture. I'm even starting to use hand tools. I'm incorporating joinery techniques I never before envisioned using. I've received invaluable guidance on finishing techniques. I'm resawing veneers and making my own draw pulls.
And I owe much of this to those who contribute to this forum.
The information you pass along enables others to stretch. You provide the encouragement that makes us want to make that extra effort. We still have to make the effort to apply that which you teach. We still have to experience the failure of our inexperience. We still have to "read between the lines" to ferret out the unspoken details.
But most of all, this forum provides us the opportunity to be among those who share a love and a desire to build things, things that make a statement about who we are or who we want to be. Whether we lurk, speak up or simply speak out, it is an invaluable connection that should be nurtured.
My thanks to all of you.
Doug
Limeyzen, Doug,
Very well said. It's not always best to answer a question outright, but sometimes the gentle nudge in the right direction is all that's needed to open the door to a world of self taught knowledge. Isn't it written somewhere about giving a man a fish as opposed to teaching him how to fish?
And in the Tao Te Ching Lao-tzu says (roughly translated) "When the best leader's work is done the people will say, we did it ourselves". That takes an extraodinary amount of self ego erasing not common in our western cultures, leaders and teachers but boy do we know it and value it when we experience the result of it. I only hope that in some small way my children will remember me in that way. (Late at night and waxing philosophical).
"he often challenged us to research and propse our own solutions."
Coming here and asking opinions IS research, I think.
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Hmmm, perhaps, but hardly a rigorous form and not, I suggest, a long lasting one. Perhaps it's a matter of degree or the way the question is formed. For example, if I come here every time I have a question large or small, which typically (but not always) means I have a problem to be resolved, and post, what do I get? Probably more than one proposed solution that stems from the respondants experiences and/or opinions. I have essentially contributed nothing to the process and am a passive recipient of others input. Whereas if I do the research first, including searching this and other site archives, visit libaries, etc. etc. and then come here saying "OK this is what I have gleaned and now I need your help in finalising my decision" now I am part of the solution and as a result the outcome is richer and will stay with me longer. I am not suggesting that this procees is most usefull for all questions however I must admit my concern about the, apparent, growing tendancy in our culture to want stuff delivered to us while expensing the least effort possible.
Sounds like you're saying that you don't want an answer, but rather an education, which I agree with--but I think this place is a great part of a good education re: the issues I'm interested in. I read my butt off here, in books, magazines, everywhere I can, because I have little to no contact with other woodworkers. I've learned far more hanging out here and checking out other people's posts than by asking any q's of my own, and over time have gotten to the point where now, when I ask a question, I usually have already decided what I want to do and I'm just double checking.
Also, many of the threads that interest me fall into what I would call the "philosophy" rubric; for example are biscuit joiners a move forward or backward in woodworking? Hand tools vs power tools? How many times has Rob Millard pointed out to newbies a that he has no use for a jointer? Each time, others have offered up the usefulness of their jointers. Diversity results, for me, in a sort of "liberal arts" education in woodworking.
The end result I'm looking for is the ability to apply critcal thinking to a situation and make a decision based on a philosophy that I've gleaned from varied and diverse opinions and sources of info. I think this forum is invaluable in providing me with just that, so I read every day, usually several times.
Great thread, this one. See what I mean?
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
All,
Charlie, I would suggest that you are a model of the kind of approach I'm advocating! It's interesting that since my original posting a couple of things seemed to have happened. One, there is much more focus on this site than I intended but perhaps natural given that this is where I chose to post. I had rather hoped that we would look at the WW mag issue and, if we agreed as a WW body, think about ways to influence the publishers to at least cut down on the short term repetitiveness. I know, market realities and all that!
The other is that while there is an applaudable sentiment of the need for old hands to pass on knowledge there has been little focus on what the "newcomers" owe to the knowledge aquisition process. As I've said, perhaps ad nauseum, it seems that it's OK for me (yes I consider myself a relative newcomer to this craft) to come here and post any question without having devoted any effort to it's resolutuion other than type! Yes, it's very helpful for me to come here when I'm stuck in the middle of a project and my books don't yield an answer and/or the technique seems dangerous and the archives don't have a current thread so I too am greatful that this site exists. So no I'm not just after an education, allthough I acknowledge my tendancy to want to understand theory not just practicalities.
One thought occurs and I commit to being a model of it. When I get advice from this forum I will post a follow up on the outcome for me so that othes can realize the true impact of their input. Meanwhile, I think I'll do some analysis and, if merited, write a letter to the editor of FWW re repetivity! And I'm going to cease and desist on this thread unless someone sparks a new thought in this tiny brain of mine, since I'm being repetitive! <grin>
I suspect there is no limit. However I'm beginning to believe in my own limited capacity. It seems that more and more lately, each new thing I learn bumps something old I knew out. It leaves the sense that "I used to know that" there, but deletes whatever it was that I'd known.
But I'm a teacher. And since I still know enough useful things that others want me to teach them, then I'll except whatever the consequences are. For I perpetuate the knowledge passed down to me. And hopefully at least a few of my students will pass it on, along with the additional insight and innovation they can add, to following generations. Should this continue to happen, there must surely be no limit to knowledge. It just takes more than one person, and more than one lifetime, to prove.
That is 4th dimensional thinking.
4DThinker ;-)
I want to thank all of the respondants here, serious, flippant and in between, for providing feedback that has caused me to rethink my original "concern". What I had originally felt as an outward looking and growing frustration with the repetivity of articles, posts, opinions etc etc. in various WW mags and sites (not just this one) now is seen as an inward dilemma. It's to do with being more content to practice and get better at application instead of merely thirsting for knowledge for knowledge sake.
Phew!! Glad that one's off my back! Next?
All,
Speaking for myself, when I first started lurking this site I had no clue about the archives or the tremendous information contained therein. Speaking to the point that has been raised regarding the repetitive nature of some posts, I think it would be a service to those coming in the first time to automatically route them to a page that provides a description and link to the most frequently requested topics and explains the archives.
Doug
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