Hello All, new member here. I have a rookie question. I bought shellac flakes and mixed it with ISOPROPYL alcohol. Is there a difference between ISO and Denatured alcohol specifically in regards to disolving shellac flakes. It’s been two days and the shellac is still kind of bunched up at the bottom of the container.
Thanks,
jamesb0921
Replies
Isopropyl alcohol has a lot of water in it; denatured does not. Isopropyl is no good for mixing shellac. Best to throw it away and start over.
Thank you Ben for you input. I bought denatured today and I still have half a pound of flakes so I will scrap the first batch and start over. youdaman. Thanks again
Unless you bought your isopropanol from a chemical supply house, or other source of the pure stuff, it likely has quite a bit more than the 5 ish percent water than is normal with ethanol. I'd say you should scrap it at start anew. If this was a large quantity of flakes, you might try poring off the liquid in their now and replacing it with liquid from a freshly opened can of denatured alcohol.
Thank you steve for you input. I bought denatured today and I still have half a pound of flakes so I will scrap the first batch and start over. youdaman. Thanks again
Also bear in mind:
1. Isopropyl alchohol evaporates more slowly than ethyl.
2. It is a less "aggressive" solvent. You can safely clean most plastics with it whereas ethyl will damage many plastics.
We Canadians are forced to use Isopropyl Alcohol since Denatured is not sold here. Another option in Canada is Methyl Hydrate, but it is not good for you so most do not recommend it. 98% IA works, but it does take about 30 - 45min to disolve the flakes. To speed up the process you can grind up the flakes.
Brad
Just a note, but Isopropyl alcohol is quite toxic in comparison to ethyl alcohol (ethanol), as is methyl alcohol (methanol). If you can't buy the denatured ethanol as a solvent, then one solution (albiet relatively expensive) is "everclear", or grain alcohol sold for human consumption. So long as it says it's 190 proof (95%), it's suitable for use as a shellac solvent.
Since most woodworkers don't use all that much shellac on a volumetric basis, a $20 bottle of grain alcohol should last quite a long time.
Thks for the tip. The 98% IA is almost $40 per 4l and you have to go through the "why are you buying this" question as I understand it is used for Meth production.
Brad
"Thks for the tip. The 98% IA is almost $40 per 4l and you have to go through the "why are you buying this" question as I understand it is used for Meth production."
Interesting. I don't think I'd want to wind up on a government watch list just to finish something with shellac. Think I'd just buy moonshine instead. ;-)
David,
You failed to mention that you can consume the leftovers. Hence the term "getting shellacked". <gr>
-Jerry
Reminds me of a movie -Are you telling me that in your shop, the only shop in the entire world that can dissolve a 1# cut of shellac flakes in 45 minutes where in the rest of the free world it takes overnight?
-- Twisted "My Cousin Vinny"2nd EverClear, In Fla we only have the 151Proof ( I go I field trips to Georgia!) But in a pinch DNA is fine... Make sure to Pour it and cap it immediately it lovers water in the air also!)Capt. Rich Clark
--DUCT Tape is the "force"... It has a Light side and a Dark side and it binds the universe together
Have often wondered about the length of time it takes to dissolve shellac flakes in the northern hemisphere. Here in Australia, the flakes dissolve in 45 minutes or less. Three hypotheses:1. Flakes arriving here have crossed the equator which magically softens them up.
2. Our Coriolis Effect is the opposite of yours. Shellac flakes like our spin better than yours - or alternatively, are confused by our spin so they just give up and melt.
3. We use methylated sprits which somehow works better than the alcohols available in the north. (Note to Aussies - the Diggers brand of meths has more water in it than Solver's.)Another odd thing - I've never had shellac become unusable. Some ten year old flakes dissolved easily and worked fine. And I've never had dissolved shellac fail dry quickly although it had sat for a couple of years in a jar lost behind tins on the paint shelf.Cheers from Down Under
What about methylated spirits? I thought that was the Canadian name for denatured alcohol, with methylated referring to the methanol added to the ethanol as a major denaturing agent. Is that product not available?
By the way, dissolving shellac in 30--45 minutes sounds like pretty rapid.
By the way, if you look at the MSDS for denatured alcohol you find that many brands contain lots of methanol--sometimes more than half. I suppose it is fortunate that an antedote for ill effects from methanol is ethyl alcohol.
I remember from my camping days that in Britain methylated spirits was always colored purple. No idea if it's the same in Canada.Best regards,
Paul
Methyl Hydrate = Methanol. Probably a "mealy-mouthed" name to avoid the "meths" stigma. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MethanolI agree and accept that isopropanol is more toxic than ethanol but it is less so than meths. It is also kinder to the skin.
Hey Brad
Just wondering.. why is denatured not available in Canada? If you have a minute and you know why it is not on the shelf I'd like to know.
dan
Honestly, I dont know why. Probably some oddball rule. Maybe Steve knows. I recall talking with a fellow in Montreal that found some through a drug store, but our local drugstore had no luck when they talked with their supplier.
Brad
I don't know why it isn't readily available. I know Canada has regulations allowing "Completely Denatured Alcohol" whose requirements on the surface seem similar to the corresponding regulations in the U.S.but may have small details that mean that the product is marketed only in industrial channels or such like. I've seen references to DNA being known as methylated spirits in Canada which wouldn't be the same as methyl hydrate which is basically methanol. Methanol is not good stuff to breath, and apparently also is absorbed more readily through skin than ethanol.
Personally, and I can't claim any expertise here, I'd think that I'd much prefer the public health consequences of have denatured ethanol readily available, and methanol less available.
In some sense there is some benefits to the Canadian situation. You would know that when you dissolve shellac in methanol that you need to be careful, wear gloves and have plenty of ventilation. A good stiff drink after a shellac finishing session would likely also be in order. (Ethanol is an antidote for methanol poisoning.)
You have to look at MSDS in the US to tell what is in the products sold as denatured alcohol. Since ethanol has become expensive, because of it's mandated use in motor fuel, some DNA products are half methanol. At least it does contain ethanol, which does perhaps mitigate some of the adverse health effects of the methanol. Be aware that since the methanol evaporates more rapidly than ethanol using high methanol DNA to dissolve shellac will affect how it handles compared to using DNA with higher proportions of ethanol. Even further there propietary solvent for dissolving shellac that includes some isopropanol, an even slower evaporating alcohol, that some might prefer
Come on, we are all experts on the internet:)
Thks for the info. Congrats on the editor role.
Steve
I think that would even dazzle Alex Trebek.
thanks
dan
mowhawk western finishing supplies sells denatured alcohol,they are in Vancouver B.C Canada.
Dan the wood bug
Edited 3/26/2009 1:31 pm ET by woodguydan
Thats great to know. Any chance you know what a 4l jug runs?
Brad
sorry I do not ,it has been awhile since I have needed any .I prefer lacquer or urethane.if memory serves it is much less then lac/thinner
Dan
Hi James,
Just an observation from "down under".
In Australia, there are a few grades of de-natured alcohol,not all of which are commercially available.
Laboratory grade is ethyl alcohol denatured with + or - 5% methanol..also known as industrial alcohol.
Methylated spirit,freely available in hardware stores,supermarkets & corner stores,is ethyl alc., denatured with wood naptha,which gives ours its distinctive,pungent aroma,meant to disuade us from 'shellacking' ourselves!This is not always successful,as some members of our indigenous population will attest.
It is this last form that is most often used for shellac application as it is quite cheap and freely available.
Cheers from Oz,
Robin
send be a couple barrels
Sure enough! But I wonder if you have the correct brand of shoepolish to add the right flavour.
Got to be Nugget !
He,he,he.....
R
Nugget is good but for colors I use KIWI LOL.
in the 30's my grandfather used to brew shine. The RCMP would visit and could never find the still. It was in an underground celler under the pig pen. The smell of the pigs hid the smell of the mash and cooking. Who said those old farmers were dumb?
Reminds me a bit of a plaque that is firmly screwed to the bulkhead of a grand old triple planked ketch that still sails Sydney harbour under the hand of one of our elderly gentlemen skippers,
It reads... "Old age & treachery will defeat youth and enthusiasm any time"
;-)
They are probably from the same mould.
Robin
"It's been two days and the shellac is still kind of bunched up at the bottom of the container"
In addition to all the sage advice above, I've experienced this problem even when using DNA. It almost seems as if the flakes form a protective layer that prevents the alcohol from getting through. Frequent stirring helps speed dissolution; OR (I love this!) grind the flakes in one of those electric coffee mills. I'd love to take credit for that trick, but I learned it on this forum. It's a terrific trick. The powdered flakes dissolve in a tenth of the usual time. I did have to spend some time explaining to my wife that shellac is non-toxic.
Shellac is more than non-toxic - it's edible! I believe the shine on jelly beans is shellac. "Finishing wood" is 8th on the list of uses for shellac (I think food came in 3rd). It surprised me.
Doug
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
It's better than that! Most pills are coated with shellac!
I wonder where pharmaceuticals are on that chart of yours?
"Shellac is more than non-toxic - it's edible! I believe the shine on jelly beans is shellac. "Finishing wood" is 8th on the list of uses for shellac (I think food came in 3rd). It surprised me."
Hmm - Actually, the coating on jelly beans is carnauba and candellila wax. But you're quite right - shellac is on the FDA list of approved substances for inclusion in food. Pharmacetuicals, as frenchy mentions, were often coated in shellac in days gone by, though manufacturers have largely switched to other varnishes for cost reasons.
It's coats a lot of pills.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Nah. Government has only two rules:
(1) Find money
(2) Take it
Not to long ago I saw a demonstration where the gentleman used grain alcohol to dissolve his shellac. Since it evaporated faster he was able to apply coats of french polish faster. The downside was that grain is more expensive. But his french polish finish was a thing of beauty.
I know that using Everclear or the like to dissolve shellac is done. But whether that actually evaporates faster isn't really clear because one of the more common ingredients in denatured alcohols actually evaporates faster than ethanol (grain alcohol). One of the brands of DNA I see around quite often (including at the some of the borg) is approximately 50% methanol. While ethanol evaporates 8.3 times slower than ether, methanol evaportes onl 6.3 times slower. Methyl IsoButyl Ketone is slower requiring 10 times longer than the evaporation of ether, but is typically used in very small quantities. Of course all alcohols have water included, either in the can, or if very expensive anhydrous alcohol were purchased, then shortly after the container is opened in air containing moisture.
My bet is that if you switched his Everclear for DNA he would still produce beautiful French polish. Everclear is more expensive for two reasons. First it has to have relatively low amounts of "denaturing" substances so must be a relatively pure grade, and more importantly, "sin taxes" must be paid.
Yes, the "sin taxes" do make Everclear more expensive then DNA. That is a downside to using that particular solvent. However the gentleman was able to apply four coats of french polish to his sample board in about thirty-five minutes while he was lecturing. In my humble opinion that sample had a pretty good build up of finish when he passed it around for all to see. Several of the more knowledgable gents that were also in attendence were quite impressed with the results as well.
Do you have access to medical alcohol? That's denatired alcohol without the 2% contamination..
if you can get 99.9% isopropanol then you should be fine
When in SoCal I used denatured because Everclear 190 was not available. Now live in So Carolina and Everclear 190 is off-the-shelf — and on the shelf in my shop. Ditch as MUCH water as you can In finishing.
Unfortunately, DNA is no longer readily available in SoCal. Haven't found it in a store since I moved here a year ago. I did order some through Amazon, but it was stupid expensive. Maybe twice what I am used to spending.
I've been looking for alternatives... Might just have to order a big 5 gallon bucket of the medical grade Iso, or take a drive to Arizona.
Plus leftover Everclear 190 is much more drinkable than DNA or 99.9999% isopropyl!
I've found that if I add the shellac flakes and ethanol (denatured or 190 proff stuff) and shake every time the song changes on the radio I can get it to dissolve in about an hour (could be 45 minutes). If I start this way and then stop after a few times or just add the ethanol shake some and then shake it once or twice a day (usually as passing though the garage to and from work), the congealed stuff will completely dissolve in about 4 or 5 days.
I don't know about your isopropanol water content.
If you are a hobby woodworker and not using large volumes of ethanol a year (say a gallon or less), I would personally find 190 proof ethanol at a local liquor store and go that direction.
Isopropyl Alcohol is my preferred solvent for shellac. The flow out is better because the dry time is retarded a little. You should only use 99% which you can either get online, or get in gallons from a printing supply store in your area. Commercial printers use IA for cleaning the ink off press rollers.
When dissolving flakes, yes, grinding them will speed up the dissolve time.
I don't use shellac that often but, when I do, I have just bought Zinsser Bullseye Sealer and cut it with denatured alcohol. It's my understanding that, from the can, it is a 2# cut; with half Bullseye and half denatured alcohol, it's a 1# cut. Even if it isn't exactly that, it works extremely well; probably as well as mixing from scratch with flakes. Easier and, when stored properly, lasts a long time.
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