Hello all, been looking at Japanese chisels, just wondering if someone could tell me about sharpening them. Won’t the scooped out back eventuly give you a curved cutting edge as you grind the chisel away? Also, what purpose does the scooped out back have?
Can you really get a sharper cutting edge? Will it hold it’s edge longer?
Ben.
Replies
Hi Ben,
I don't know about sharper, as all metals can be gotten to the same level of sharpness off the stone, but (and it's a big but) they hold the edge a lot longer and stay sharper in use.
The hollow back reduces the amount of steel you have to remove to flatten the back of the chisel. The idea is not to have the entire chisel back flattened, but only the 1/2" to 1" near the cutting edge. Even if you flatten the whole back, it's still minimal work to get it flat compared to a bench chisel when the centre of the blade does not touch the stone.
Hope that this helps.
Cheers,
eddie
Ben,
I agree with everything Eddie said...
One drawback to the Japanese chisel is their shortness....I can't get both my mits on the chisel for heavy paring....so I use other chisels for that function. Also, by the time you grind the Japanese chisel down to the curvature in the back...its time to throw the chisel away. I believe the way it's constructed (layers of metal) says anything beyond the first 1/4-3/8" from the tip is useless for chiseling....metal is too soft.
I do like them but am anxious to try different brands (two cherry, swedish). I bought my Japanese from Woodcraft, they carry one brand, what I don't know is the difference between brands....and if its worth it..
Yes, eventually you hone into the curved area and the chisel must be struck from the front in an elaborate (at least to me) procedure to force metal into the void in the back and the whole process started over again.
I am not an expert on Japanese tools.
If you're looking to spend a lot of money on chisels, and you will if you buy Japanese, I would suggest just getting a set of Sorbys. It would be hard for me to believe that any incremental improvement of the Japanese chisel over quality "western" chisels would be worth the hassle.
The construction of the Japanese chisel is supposed to make it easier to flatten the back and speed honing. However, I have flattened the back of a 1" chisel (plane Jane brand) in less than 15 minutes. So that whole issue is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned. Fifteen or so lousy minutes. And it only has to be done once.
FWIW, I have plane old Marples bevel edged firmers and a set of Sorby mortise chisels. I have no idea how long they "hold" an edge. When they seem to require too much force to cut, I hone them. I'm not sure how somebody objectively measures how many paring strokes they've made before an edge needs a little touch up, but I would submit to you that anybody who sweats this kind of crap is more of a tool collector than a woodworker. Don't fall into the trap.
Plan your next project, not your next tool purchase. Work wood, not mail order catalogs.
You can make a $15 chisel sharp enough to shave your arm as smooth as a baby's behind. What you do with that sharp instrument is up to your own patience and skill.
In a previous thread about a month ago, I raised the problem of the short blade on a Japanese chisel and use of the generally accepted honing guides. To get a 25 degree bevel angle, the blade is too short to fit in the guide. I personally like the short blade for paring , despite anothers disagreement, but the difficulty of sharpening does become a problem.
Experienced woodworkers say they do all this by hand ( without a honing guide/jig) but there is no way you can get AS CONSISTENT an edge without a jig. I have tried and am improving but use of a jig makes it soo much easier.
Well, if you're talking about 'close enough', then you can definitely get that without a jig. If you're talking about perfect, then you just can't get there period. Due to the magnetic field of the North pole, and the curvature of the Earth, it is physicaly impossible... ;)
But seriously, I can hold a chisel or plane iron perfectly flat on its bezel assuming it has a flat bezel that is not rounded over that bad. And with the guides, I can never set it at the exact same angle it was at the previous sharpening, so I am always removing too much steel, or making a higher angle than previous.
Either way will get you there.
Tom
The trick with the honing jig is to get the "correct" angle once with the tool in the jig, then put a dowel in a piece of hardwood such that the tip of the blade just touches the dowel when the jig is snuggled against the edge of the wood. Then you can instantly get the same angle every time you use the jig. You can also have one dowel for 25 degrees, one for 30 degrees, etc.
I generally don't bother with the jig with chisels or even narrow plane blades - it seems easier to give them a hollow grind and then it's real easy to "feel" the two edges of the grind while honing. That's how I'd do a japanese chisel if I owned any. For wider plane blades, however, the honing jig using the dowel trick is real easy and fast.
Ben,
I was brought up using Japanese chisels and planes. That in no way makes me an expert, but I was lucky enough to be taught by my Great Grandfather, Grandfather, Father and Godfather woodworking.
First of all Japanese chisels are sharpened in the same fashion as western chisels. As mentioned before they do have a different angle from western chisels. There is one difference called tapping out when the blade gets close to the hollow. This isn't something you do very often. It basically extends the harden steel for a longer chisel life.
Here's a link: http://www.japanwoodworker.com/chisels.html
The chisels are constructed by laminating hardened steel to a softer steel. You can even tell the chisel maker by the pattern of the laminations but that's a whole other post. As for the reason, tool steel was difficult to come by so it was a way of conserving this resource. At least, that's what Gramps told me.
I admit that I use both westen and eastern style chisels. I have a comfort with Japanese style chisels. (It's like a prefer Cream of Mushroom soup on rainy days since mom made that.) I feel I can get a better cut with them and they stay sharp longer. Though that may be because mine were handed down from my father.
Enjoy,
Len
P.S. My Godfather handed down a set of Greenlee chisels that I love to use as well.
Thanks for the link Len, I relpyed to all the messages and then checked out the link, which ment that I then had to delete my reply cause you had already answered my question.... :)
However, the way I see it, unless the hard steel part of the chisel is tapered so that it is thicker at the back (handle end), when you sharpen the chisel the the point that you get to the middle of were the hollow was you'll only have a thin amount of hard steel. Is this correct? Am I explaining myself well?
Ben
Ben,
To answer your question. If you gotten that far down the chisel, then it's time to retire the chisel. There is more hardened steel on the chisel there than it looks.
Getting back to your original post. Why do you want to get a Japanese chisel? Are you just curious about them? Are you looking for the nirvana of chisels? Are you unhappy with the way western chisels perform? Just collecting?
This probably opens a whole can of worms, but what the hey. :)
I'll leave you with something my dad would say, "Fear the man with one gun. He knows how to use it." I'll bet my mom would say that to him when he wanted to buy some new toy. lol...
Enjoy,
Len
"Fear the man with one gun. He knows how to use it."
I love it.
I see a few of the things in this thread differently:
- It is far from true that all chisels get as sharp off the same stone. There are at least two variables. Structure of steel that makes getting a fine edge impossible, because (so the explanation goes I'm not an electron microscope) the particles are too large. Whatever the reason there are certain steels that just won't form the edge as well. There is also and interplay between steel and stone. Imagine a rake pulled over a bed of loose sand vs. hard stone dust. The rake penetrates deeper in one than the other. Same with certain stone combination, they may furrow the steel more at a certain grit than another (duller weaker). Many WW like Japanese stones, and Jap. tools coevolved with the stones for the best results.
- The hollow is a complex issue. It is said that it is there to make sharpening the WHOLE back easier. This makes little sense, because for initial sharpening we have powerful tools, and over time you have to grind out the hwole hollow, a huge job. I believe it is there to make polishing the back during every sharpening more effective. Polishing at say 30000 grit on a completely flat 66 Rc back is going to take forever. That is my guess, but not the lore.
Generally plane blades are taped out to help preserve the taper that is important to blade fit in the body. Generally chisels are ground out. The hard steel covers the whole back, and they can be kept cutting through the sharpening process. Taping out is possible, but it isn't going to work on a 1"x1" mortising chisel with a 35 degree bevel, and I don't have any time for it on other chisels either (check Odates book).
- Japanese chisels are available in a range of lengths, it happens the shorter chisels seem the most popular first sets for western workers. I haven't seen the equivalent of our timber chisels with 12" blades, but they have 18" timber chisels with long enough blades. You can find what you want if you look for it.
I certainly don't think a Marples chisel is any kind of comparison to Japanese ones, it won't hold up in hard hardwood. That said there are good western chisels too. The Japanese ones are the best, however. There are a number of intriguing reasons for it, like the idea that when swordmaking was outlawed some of the swordmakers moved over to tools. Like the Skunkworks giving up on fighter planes, and turning their efforts to table saws. Still it could just be the ferocious pride of their workers, who knows.
Thom,
Like the Skunkworks giving up on fighter planes, and turning their efforts to table saws.
I bought one...unfortunately, its a stelth table saw and I can't find it..lol
I know the model your speaking of!
I've always found it a fascinating inconsistency that Japanese chisels and plane irons have the reputation of holding up so well to use on the hardest of hardwoods yet the best Japanese saws are clearly constructed for use on softwoods, which are used in far larger amounts by actual Japanese woodworkers than hardwood species.
I don't doubt for one moment that a $7 chisel (Marples) is "less" in every respect than a $40+ chisel (Japanese). I'm just not particularly bothered by having to do a touch up on an as-needed basis. These chisels will produce tissue-thin parings, they're not sexy at all, there's no Asian mystique and mystery or harkening back to the Japanese sword making legacy. And I don't care if I drop one. I don't feel compelled to anoint them with Camelia oil at the end of the day.
They do a job without a lot of fuss.
No fuss is good.
Edited 4/19/2003 10:34:37 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
>>They do a job without a lot of fuss.
>>No fuss is good.Well spoken. That's why I buy all my furniture at Ikea!
(Norm@running&dodging)
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
"I've always found it a fascinating inconsistency that Japanese chisels and plane irons have the reputation of holding up so well to use on the hardest of hardwoods yet the best Japanese saws are clearly constructed for use on softwoods, which are used in far larger amounts by actual Japanese woodworkers than hardwood species."
That's a fair observation, but there are both hardwood and softwood saws in the Japanese idiom, And anyone who works in hardwood will just have to search out the right saw. As with our cheaper lines of tools that are mostly slated towards softwood carpentry, the same applies with the cheaper Japanese tools.
My thing about blue chips chisels is you can dull them in one dovetail socket on hard woods ( might not be the case if you simply heat treated them again in your propane torch). They are fine on soft woods. So because of that experiece you go looking for better chisels, and there are lots of options some like antique tools are cheaper than the blue chip if you look for them. The fact that the Japanese tools work great on hardwoods doesn't mean they won't also work better on softwoods, but the illustration is less dramatic. If you ever set out to polish some beams, or shoji parts, you would be just as pleased to have the harder edges on your tools for that purpose.
The only Japanese saw that I have found for hardwoods are the cheap, mass-produced 'Razor Saw' grade of saw.
If you know of a source for a very high quality Japanese saw optimized for use on hardwood I'd like to know it.
I regularly use Marples on all the common N. American furniture hardwoods - Cherry, Walnut, Oak, and Ash without any of the problems that you've mentioned. I've dovetailed an entire chest of drawers made from Cherry and touched up the edges on the two chisels I used once. Maybe I was not as tuned in to what was happening to my edges, but the work went well and the dovetails looked and fitted just fine.
An awful lot of woodworkers seem to mention Marples as a staple in their shops - seems like I've noticed this over the years as I've read FW and other Taunton books. I don't think these guys are working exclusively in softwoods.
My understanding of Japanese chisels is that they have been hardened to the point of being almost brittle, that they chip easily in very hard wood, and because of this they were, in fact, really optimized for softwood.
"My understanding of Japanese chisels is that they have been hardened to the point of being almost brittle, that they chip easily in very hard wood, and because of this they were, in fact, really optimized for softwood."
They are hardened to the point of having the best edge holding ability the makers can manage, if they thought that made them too brittle, they could change their tempering. They certainly don't chip easily in hardwood, as mentioned elsewhere, they use these tools to mortise out things like planes made of oak-ebony. The toolmakers are not unacustomed to working with hardwood. I have Ouchii chisels that were designed for cutting hardwood dovetails at 83 degrees, if you can believe it.
Marples could have changed their proceedure since I bought some in the 80s, and again in the 90s, though I am not really saying anythign that wasn't reflected in the FWW tests, however flawed.
I got a fair amount of my stuff from Masterpiece Tools, in the early 80s, and they are long gone. I think you can find saws designed for hardwood in the Japan Woodworker catalogue, judging by the lattest edition, though they don't put in in terms of the tooth pattern, as much as the results, check bottom half of page 2. Lee Valley has a cheapo that is pretty nice (new handle, so who knows), 60T22.01. You can get anything you want from Harrelson at Japanesetools.com. And Hida in my short perusal actualy says some of their saws are for hardwoods, on their website.
Relative to chisels, you can find chisels designed for toughness, Harrelson can put you on to this. More generaly, there is the white steel blue steel thing, though it isn't as simple as saying one is for hardwood while the other isn't. Then there is Hitachi HSS for handtools, a whole other way of approaching toughness, with the advantage of it being dry grindable, if you go for that kind of thing.
I still can't understand the difficulty in finding a saw for hardwood. Or why all of them aren't suitable for hardwood if the Japanese work in harder woods at a greater rate than I previously understood them to.
A saw designed to cut hardwood species surely will work for softwood species.
A piece of the puzzle seems to be missing.
One hundred chisels?
Edited 4/22/2003 11:58:54 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
I still can't understand the difficulty in finding a saw for hardwood. Or why all of them aren't suitable for hardwood if the Japanese work in harder woods at a greater rate than I previously understood them to.
It isn't difficult to find any more than there is a difficulty finding say an independance dovetail saw. At my local hardware stores, all the saws are designed for softwood, plywood etc... No ripsaws in sight. I wouldn't conclude that nobody rips a piece of wood from that evidence. it's jsut what the market has asked for.
A saw designed to cut hardwood species surely will work for softwood species.
It just doesn't cut as fast,
A piece of the puzzle seems to be missing.
I'm not sure what it is?
One hundred chisels?
Conservatively. And I don't have many gouges. That's how I know what's what. It's all in my shop. Mortise chisels, carpenter/timber, cheap HSS steel toe wetter set, Ouchii fabulous set of every size, mini chisels (these you con't need, but they are fun), Push set. Some slicks. Barr Custom, and timber frame. Lots of trad americal. Western mortising chisels for when you need to go deep. there is still room for expansion. With this many, you really appreciate edge holdin, I'm telling you what.
Sounds like you're the expert. What do you think of 2 Cherries - comparably?
Thanks
I just have one of their real big mortising chisels. Very stout, The finish was crude, and the steel not great, but you can hear other folks saying nice things.
If I was not happy to use Japanese chisels, at least here in the NE I would be looking for traditional tools. Right now seems like a great time. The timber tools are getting pricey, but the shop based tools are incredibly cheap, sometimes just a few dollars. I turn, so I like to buy broken handled tools. What is incredible about these tools, is that they have really easily hsarpened blades, the steel just drifts off on the Scary sharp paper. Edge holding is very good.
I have this 2" chisel, cost me about 4 bucks US. It has great steel. I just sold my table saw, took this razor sharp NE tool, and scraped some glue gunk and so forth off the table, went all over it. Never would have done that with a Japanese tool, that probably would have cost 100-200 in that size, and restoring the edge was just maybe 20 seconds on the paper.
That is what I am after, in fact if I could have found the quality of supplier I need in old tools, I might not have gone down the Japanese route. I want pro grade tools (that doesn't mean a built in radio, though I'm open to it). For me that means a good pay-off between sharpening and edge retention. My main gripe about Jap. tools i that sharpening is like polishing a Ferrarri, it's endless. You really never feel like you got it all. Now that raises your skills, and the edge retention pays you back, but a medium retainer like some old tools, that sharpens ten times better, or Jap. HSS tool, or a Barr (no price comfort there) may give you a good payoff also. But I don't feel like i get that from some of the other tools we have discussed.
Actualy here is another one. Dicks has some Chinese chisels, they are rock bottom cheap, ugly, and if they hold like a Chinese vegetable knife I have, they could be great. I was going to try them, but then figured, maybe I should just keep sharpening the ones I have.
Here is a tip: buy chisels from people who work with their hands, full time, for a living.
Just thought you might like to see a picture I took while I was living in Japan. It was taken at a outdoor museum of old Japanese homes. It is called Minka En.
Enjoy,
Len
Edited 5/29/2003 11:05:18 AM ET by Len
Thanks, Very greatful.
Looks a lot like my shop! Just a lot less stuff.
Reminds me I need to get going and make that handle for my clamshell adze.
I am simply asking for a source for a broad range of high quality Japanese saws in all the major configurations (ryoba, ryoba noko giri, etc.) that are for hardwoods.
The few sources that I have seen, wax poetically about how fantastic the chisels are in hardwood, yet still only offer hardwood saws in the less than $40 range - the so-called "Razor Saw" which is a throw-away. The high end, individually made saws are for softwood.
The Japan Woodworker hawks a high-end saw which is clearly for softwood(s), yet the overwhelming majority of furnituremaking in the U.S. is with hardwoods.
I guess the more direct question to put is where have you bought your hardwood saws, or do you work with mostly softwoods?
I thought I answered this?
I got a lot of tools from Masterpiece tools. The went out of business, and I hear the owner comited suicide.
Japan woodworker has a 102 dollar dozuki on page two.
Hida has saws identified as for hardwood on their site, I tried to copy that listing last night, but it got real complicated and fatal erored me, but look at their site. They have four makers, the second one I looked at had saws broken down by wood type.
Or look at Harrelson Stanley's site, or ask him, he has contacts for everything, in any price range.
Not all dispossible blade saws are throw aways. One saw expert who drops in over on Harrelsons' site, recently confessed he probably would use them exclusively, where it not for the acquired skills he enjoys developing, the dispossibles are so good these days.
When you say the high end saws are "made for softwood" basicaly that is the final preping, and teeth cutting, you can have it any way you want, if you ask. Just like you can ask for most any plane blade angle, if you don't mind waiting.
I would agree with your basic point that there is something odd about the available saws being so heavily weighted towards softwood cutting. You are right that you would expect the reverse, especialy with the smaller more furniture oriented tools. Interestingly, MT which was east coast like Harrelson is, seems to have made a point of getting hardwood tools, while most of the suppliers have been in the bay area, where noble softwoods may be more of the picture.
I certainly don't think a Marples chisel is any kind of comparison to Japanese ones, it won't hold up in hard hardwood.
I'm assuming you mean that the Marples won't hold up in hardwood? If so, that's an interesting comment considering that traditional Japanese woodworking, which Japanese chisels are no doubt crafted around, is done in softwoods. Conventional wisdom, at least all that I've been subject to, holds that Japanese chisels tend to fold over the edge more easily when used with hardwoods. By contrast, Western-style planes and chisels excel in hardwoods.
My experience is consistent on these points, and considering that I have not been using Japanese-style handplanes, I can only comment on the chisels. I have a selection of japanese chisels that I have bought primarily at Japanwoodworker (by the way, it's really a treat to browse around their shop), and a set of marples, as well as a set of Two Cherries. Courtesy of my Tormek, and a selection of waterstones, I keep my tools very sharp and at the appropriate angle for whatever I am working with. For maple/cherry/walnut, it's no contest, the western chisels simply are better... with more meat behind the edge, and larger handles (big hands), I get more control and cutting power. For fine work, or when working in softwoods, the opposite is true, the japanese chisels offer a lot to like and generally feel better as well. On the point of sharpness, in hardwoods I find that the Western chisels hold the edge a lot better, while the japanese chisels have more of a tendancy to dull and even edge chip in hardwoods.
In my shop, I'll keep both, but for the type of things I work on I will probably put more mileage on my Western chisels (by the way, I don't think anything can beat the 2Cherries)
I agree. I think the best makers walk right up to the threshold of outright brittleness since they know the tools will be used on soft species.
If your chipping the edges of Japanese chisels bought from Japan woodworker (I wish we had something similar where I live) your not using them properly. Dollars to donuts your prying the edge. If you look back at Krenov's books he grinds Japanese chisels to even more acute angles than they come with, and uses them on hard tropical woods. I have done the same as an experiment, and have probably 100 Japanese chisels as well as a variety of others, including Marples. I have never chipped an edge on any of them woodworking, in 22 years. That is during the first years as well as more recently when I would feel pretty stupid about it. Certainly if I hit a nail (I have stripped all the teeth off a Jap. saw that way) though so far so lucky with the chisels. I did have some guys come in to switch out a furnace, only to come back to find an Ouchii chisel had been used as a cold chisel, still works fine but it was hacked up. You're just not doing it right if your getting chips in CHERRY!!??
Probably there are some people who just buy this stuff to look at, and they aren't for real, but there are people like the joe workers at Collins guitar (judging by their video) who use these things because they work, in real mahogany, rosewood, and maple. You don't have to have this level of chisel, in fact some folks seem to get away without any chisels at all. But they work well enough to keep some of us coming back.
It is a mistake to view all Japanese woodworking as softwood. They have near expose to a treasure trove of hard and "tropical" woods, and use all types. Their tansu are not made of softwood. They also have planes in angles from 30 to 95 degrees for use on all kinds of wood. As you know, but may not be considering. Their planes, are made of hardwood, both agressively morticed and planed and scraped with Japanese tools, not Marples. Some of these planes are even made of Ebony, it doesn't get much harder than that.
Thom, I'm sure that your results are outstanding. I would find it very hard not to occassionally use a firmer chisel in a prying motion.
Thanks for the kind thought, but I am just OK.
I am not sure why you would need to pry a firmer? Are your mortising? As you know, both the Jap., and West. culture have swan neck, or bottom cutting chisels because prying wrecks the tools, or at least the edge. You can easily cut mortises without prying, these tools are for bottom finsiheing. If the prying load comes on the edge it isn't sharp any more, that's not good.
The old thing about resting chisels on the bench with it's bevel down is designed to avoid putting a very light weight on the edge, a levering weight is a minor disaster.
Ben,
I'll put in my two cents. I've had a six piece set of Japanese chisels for around 7 years and I've really put them to use. First I'm still a long ways from getting to the hollow so that's really not to much of a concern. I sharpen them on waterstones by hand up to 4000 grit. I find that gives me an excellent edge. A higher grit will give a keener edge but it wont last that long when you start hammering it into a hardwood so I skip it knowing I'll be touching up the edge in a few hours anyway. Unless I'm using them for paring. Then a higher grit stone will give you that extremely shape edge that will last.
I bought this type of chisels because I work in exotic hardwoods most of the time and I needed a chisel that will take the abuse. For example I'm making a large stereo cabinet in figured Bubinga and I can use these chisels for around two to three hours fitting tennons and cleaning mortices before the edge needs touch up. In comparison I also have a set of Sorby chisels that wouldn't take two hits of the mallet before the edge folded.
Japanese chisels don't replace western chisels and vice versa. I find the shorter blade has a nice balance and most of the time I don't need a 6 or 7 inch long blade to get the job done but there are times when you do need the longer blade. I prefer the Sorby when working softwood or softer hardwoods. These are also a very nicely balanced chisel but in my experience they in NO WAY they even come close to the durability of the Japanese chisel. To be honest I've never used a chisel that was as durable as my Japanese except a set of hand made Barr chisels which were very close. These are on the wish list to replace the Sorbys.
I would recommend you buy one or two and put them up against a few western chisels. You may find you don't like the feel of a certain chisel which is very important when buying a set. Also you cannot use a grinder on Japanese chisel to hollow grind so the whole sharpening process might be to much of a pain to justify.
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