I have a question about making a japanese type joint. I have a picture of the
joint that I am trying to replicate. Can I talk to someone who is familiar
with japanese joinery? The joint is a type where three pieces are joined at 90 degrees, w/no visible means of connection. When completed all three pieces will act as a table base to support a glass top. Sections are 6″ square and approximately 48″ long. Thank Youi!.
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Although he is of Chinese extraction, not Japanese, you might want to check Yeung Chan's excellent book, "Classic Joints with Power Tools."
He covers several different methods of cutting different kinds of joints, including three-way miters.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Jazz.. I have that book and worth twice it's price .. Well, ALMOST twice...
I agree wholeheartedly! I obtained the book when I attended a two-day seminar by Yeung Chan. Completely fascinating and inspiring! Love the portable tool box he built, with the lid that, when removed and reinstalled, becomes an easel support.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Thank You! We'll check it out!
Here's a drawing that might help. If you can do this joint well, you're pretty good.
Thank you! How did you post the picture?
I just attached it as a JPG file using the "attach files" button below the reply window. I tried to paste it into my reply, but that didn't work.
M
There is a somewhat similar type of joint from FWW issue #132 in an article by Ralph Demercado. It's got sliding DT's instead of the stub tenons though and is more for attaching aprons to legs.
There's a pic (2nd one) on this thread of a table I made using that joint.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=22295.5
Here's some pics from the issue. It's part of the Master Class articles and doesn't seem to be available on either the CD or the archive.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
I just looked in my old copy of Joyce's Encyclopedia of Furniture Making, and he's got yet another approach. Here's a photo of the page:
Hmmm. That one looks worth bookmarking too. These may be somewhat of a PITA to machine, but they sure do make assembly a piece of cake. You almost don't need clamps or glue to put stuff together.Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
Somewhere in my library I've got a book called "Japanese Joinery". Can't find it right now, but I'll bet it has yet another variation. I'll post it if I find it.
Michael R
Here is a picture of the type of joint that I am tryiong to make.
Oh. That's different. Looks like we all misunderstood.
I'd just use tenons laid out like this, viewed from the end of the "through" member:
Edited 4/18/2005 1:37 pm ET by Woodwiz
Sorry that one was too big. I'll try again:
Thanks, I will mock up the joint!
I am looking at this joint closer and I'm confused...if the 'section' that you are showing in your sketch is the 'through' piece, what is your solid sections vs. open for matching tenon?
I don't quite understand your question.
The view is looking endwise at a section though the one piece that is solid all the way through. Two pieces are attached to it with single tenons, and the other two with double tenons to provide additional bearing and glue surface to compensate for their shorter length.
Does that answer your question, or did I miss it? I'm sure there are lots more ways to make the joint work, but I think this one should be adequate.
Michael R.
Can't you just half lap one "X" and then mortise in the other two legs?
Steve
I'm going to have to do some searching. I think I've got a book here somewhere that shows a joint like that. I just can't immediately lay my hands on it.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
My reference is The Art of Japanese Joinery by Kiyosi Seike Weatherhill 1977 reprinted 1999. The book was originally published in Japanese under the title Kigumi
The joint you've shown appears to be the same as the last one shown in the book. Seike calls it a hôgyôzukuri-nokigeta-shiguchi or pole plate joint. Seike goes on to say it's "a truly complex joint [that] requires great delicacy and precision in cutting and fitting together." Seike provides a line drawing of the joint which, for me, is rather hard to follow. If you want I can scan and post the drawing.
Ian
Thank You! That would be very helpful!
Sorry for taking two weeks to get to a scanner
here is the diagram I mentioned
Ian
Thanks, I really appreciate your follow-up!
Looking again at the joint you want to make, I think the easiest way may well be to join two of the axis with a lap joint and then to attach the third axis using two loose through tennons. (Is that wood speak for using two dowels?)
That is the way I will make that joint! I appreciate all the feedback and sometime in the next year I will post a picture.
Where is my pull saw and a few drinks! Geee I got dizzy looking at it much less trying to cut it!
Ian Kirby had an article in "American Woodworker" issue 70 where he made a triple miter using a miter saw and plunge router. He used loose tenons similar to the article in FWW 169.
Eric
As suggested, a half-lap to join two parts, with the other two mortised in, would be simple. I'd add that those should be inserted tenons, so each tenon would be a single length of tenon stock, continuous through the half-lap joint, and glued into mortises in both opposite parts. You could even use a couple of dowels for them, and since they are going into endgrain, you'd have good glue surface all the way around.
Thank You for your feedback.
The first two pieces can just half lap, then mortise a square hole through the middle of that intersection. One side of the third leg, can have a tenon which passes through the first two, and halfway up or some other portion of the other side, which can be constructed box stile, and would just slide down over the protruding tenon.
One little screw from the underside would lock it together, unless you wanted to leave it knock-down, gravity should hold it together.The 1/3 tenon doesn't have to be through the middle, it could be through the lower corner, of the intersection of the first two, and then be screwed into a rabbit of the opposite mating part. Does this make sense?
I does make sense, but you lost me on the rabbet/screw part.
If you are using something like 4 X 4 instead of building up thickness form smaller stock. You would have trouble mortising a deep mortise in the middle endgrain.
There is no reason that the mortise has to be in the middle of the cross of the other two pieces. It can actually be in the bottom corner, which would allow you to cut your tenon easier, and the mortise part would actually be a rabbit out of the length of of one corner of the final piece.
Got it , Thanks!
DANG! How is my router going to do THAT?
I believe you are asking about the three-way miter or showcase joint about which I and others have posted here in the past couple of years. There is an article in an issue of FWW several years back in which someone wrote about a terrific way to cut the three adjoining parts on the tablesaw. I think you could find it by using the search function here. If you don't find it, let me know and I'll help you search for it. If you'd like to see some pictures of a table I made using this joint, I'll email them to you.
I would love to see a picture or two.
Wow! My three-way joint isn't anything like the photo you've attached. Looks to me like there might be several ways to make the thing workable, as stated above, but you have to be amazed at the execution no matter how he made the joint. Beautiful table. Could even have used large dowels, maybe even steel dowels. Well, anyhow here's the joint I mentioned using a three-way M&T miter approach. One picture shows the finished cherry table (it's a side table for books) and the prototype pieces made from poplar.
It really is a well crafted piece, thanks for sharing and your help!
We ran an article in issue #169 called "Simplified Three-Way Miter" by Richard Gotz. You can buy the back issue here:
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/backissue_fw.asp
or you can buy a PDF version of the article by searching the Online Archive for "Three-Way Miter" here:
http://www.taunton.com/store/fwarchive/index.asp
I was the editor of that article so if you have any questions, feel free to send them my way.
Matt Berger
Taunton New Media
There’s another book you may want to check out. It’s a translation from a book that sells in Japan.
Complete Japanese Joinery: A Handbook of Japanese Tool Use and Woodworking for Joiners and Carpenters by Y. Nakahara, H. Sato, Yasuo Nakahara, Paul Nii (Translator)
You can get the book at Cambium Books, $19.77 + shpng.
http://www.cambiumbooks.com/books/joints/0881791210/
If you're interested in Japanese joinery you have to checkout this site.
http://www.nt.sakura.ne.jp/~garakuta/wood/english/tsugi/joinery.htm
My copy mentions 15 years to get good at it.
I wonder if this is a benchmark for the gifted apprentices...or is it an accelerated program.
Metod
Yea, no kidding, 15 years for joinery, 7 years to get good at sharpening, 20 years to swing a hammer correctly...one wonders if it's worthwhile to even begin. If nothing else it reminds you that you still have something to learn, which helps you stay humble, which is not a bad thing. In Japan I've heard this quite often. But it's not exclusive to Japan though, I heard the hammer one in the States. Sorry, a bit off topic...
Edited 4/19/2005 5:15 pm ET by pqken
On a more somber note: I believe that such "extended" learning times have a lot to do with the exploatation of the apprentices -the longer it takes you to longern, the longer you will "have" to be subservient.
Metod
But on the other side of this is some beautiful work, work we all admire. I've heard some of these guys making 120USD/hr.I'll add...they are a dying breed.
Edited 4/22/2005 6:59 am ET by pqken
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled