Jet Cabinet vs. Delta Contracter Style
This is one of those discussions that has probably occurred in the past, but my search yielded nothing. Please take the time to lend me some advice, maybe again.
I have a well tuned Delta contractor style 10 inch table saw with a 30 inch Biesmeyer fence. Its a nice saw, much better then most, and I have no complaints about it. In fact I never even considered replacing it until, you guessed it, a “deal” came along.
The deal is a Jet cabinet saw, with the 50 inch Xacta fence, on a movable base, with a 3hp 220 volt motor, and lots more gleaming chrome then my Delta. Here’s the kicker, $1000.
220 is not a problem, I’ve got the room, barely, but… Is it something I’ll say, “I wish I would have spent that money on a ____ instead?”
Many thanks for your opinions, and its good to see some of you old familiar characters still here!
Steve
Replies
Just my opinion, but for chrome, I'd spend the grand on something else.
Don
Another question for you guys. The Jet tilts the blade the other way, is this just a gimic, or is it actually safer? On my Delta, I always just put the fence on the left side of the blade.
Has anyone used both the Biesmeyer and the Xacta? Same pricipal, but different materials. Would I loose anything in the swap? I see the Xacta has better surfaces on the fence, ie. they are solid plasic, not something a guy could accidently split while putting the fence in its holder.
Steve,
A coupla points. I'm very much with Larry here..if you lust after cabinet saw get it. Since I got my cabinet saw and made my big heavy workbench I've felt much better that I was in control and responsible for the outcome...it boosted my confidence...made me want to be more accurate.
On the right/left tilt..I like the tilting wheel on the left of the cabinet cause I'm left handed..also, when I add dado blades they add to the left keeping my measuring tape true....these are not big issues.
Steve,
Are you telling us the real truth here?...."In fact I never even considered replacing it until, you guessed it, a "deal" came along." ...or is it more true to say you've always wanted a cabinet saw and your delta contractor saw won't give you an excuse?..:-)
Well... Ok fine, I've always considered my saw to be kind of "unprofessional". Kind of like a old beat up F-150 compared to that new Sierra, but now I feel kind of guilty for thinking about replacing the old reliable beast, thanks BG for making this a simple decision!!!! :)
Edited 8/23/2003 9:18:01 AM ET by Steve
I've been using a Delta contractor's saw for the past 10 years, and am planning to upgrade to a cab saw because:
Cutting anything other than 4/4 stock is a pain,
Cab saws run smoother and make smoother cuts due to their higher torque motors. Use the right blade and tecnique, and you don'shave to joint for a glue line.
Cab saws tables and wings are generally flatter than contractor type saws,
Dust collection on cab saws seems to be more effecient.
I've got my saw with 30" fence on rollers so I can move it to different work areas. I don't know if a cab saw with a 50" fence would be that mobile.
I'd go for the cab saw......
Tom,
I bet you've done some research, what saw are you going to get?
Probably a right tilt Delta or Jet. I havn't had a chance to look at the General or Bridgewood yet.
Steve,
Doesn't sound like much of a deal to me... Sounds like a "great deal"! Especially since the final cost could/should be lower if you sell your contractors saw and apply the procedes to the cabinet saw.
I am sure there are several Knotheads here who would be more than willing to make this deal, should you not want to.
RR
I once had a Rockwell contractor's saw. I hit a frustration level about 1980 with that saw and realized the labor spent constantly tuning it would easily pay for a cabinet saw. Cabinet or industrial saws I've worked on include Powermatic, Unisaw, Jet, Grizzly, Martin, Oliver and probably a couple others that escape me at the minute. While I put the Jet and Unisaw at the bottom of the list of cabinet saws, it's a huge step up from the contractor's saw. Have you considered General or the new Bridgewood? They wouldn't run much more than the Jet but I know the General is a better saw and suspect the Bridgewood is as well.
The one question to ask yourself is if you want the saw to satisfy a status issue or if you want it to pay its way and make life easier. Both are legitimate because even the feeling of status can improve your work just by giving you more confidence and pride. I'd figure out what I wanted and why before buying anything.
Steve,
Guess you're the only one who can decide whether or not you want to replace the Delta. Should you decide to do so, I can tell you that the Jet is a great machine and you'll be happy with it. Many folks on this forum don't like Jet. (Not one of them has been able to give me a reason other than to say that machine X, costing $800 more is a better machine. No kidding!!!) If you check the reviews on Amazon and in the magazines, you'll find a very high degree of satisfaction with both their machinery and their unrivalled service.
Jeff
PS $1000 is a great price.... better not pass this one up. (HA!)
Jeff,
I've always been up front about why I dislike Jet and it has nothing to do with price. It is a company that does no reasearch or innovation at all. They copy everyone else's successes, and then cheapen in product down some to sell for less. To sum it up, their business ethic just irks me. Yes, I do own a jet machine.
Don
Edited 8/23/2003 4:48:19 PM ET by Don C.
Doggone it man - don't hear from you for months then you come back cantankerous as an old mule!!! Too much plaster dust, eh?
Don't know that there's been much research or innovation by any of these companies. Let's face it, most saws on the market are Unisaw clones. (Actually, Ryobi's BT3000 and Jet's Supersaw stand apart from the crowd as innovative, even if neither is anything to write home about.) Some are better than the original, some aren't. Nearly all use a Beissmeier fence, or a copy of it. Guess General is the only exception, since their machines bear absolutely no resemblance to the Delta originals due to that dashing coat of green paint and shiny top.
Jeff
Jeff,
Plaster dust? haha Yep, too much, too long more then likely! Cantankerous though? Nah, I just posted my opinion to your statement and someone couldn't let it go as viable an opinion as any other and took it a bit farther. So bear in mind, I didn't start it.
Did you know the General use to make Delta castings? Appears to be the only company left that still agescures castings the old fashion way, with time. They don't use electrical charging. Their Bessy is a Bessy as they pay royalties to Beis. to make the same fence. I get your point though, and I understand it, but there is more to General and almost all the other machine manufacturers then a cabinet style saw. Although I would not credit Jet with anything about the supersaw. That's Dewalt all the way.
BTW, We have a new nephew up in Iron Mountain. Should be back up soon enough again.
Don
If you are dead serious about your woodworking, you should be using a cabinet saw. Contractor saws are designed for-....well,.......contractors(job sites, rough conditions, portability).
But $1,000.00 for a Jet is too much, when you consider that for $900.00(maybe less right now) gets you a Grizzly saw, brand new w/warantee, dropped(hopefully not) at your curb. There is no difference in quality between them (maybe the paint job, but that doesn't really mean squat).
One advantage of a left tilt saw, besides the safety factor, is that when the blade is tilted, the fence stays on the right side, and the scale is still useful. Another is that when bevel cutting, the blade is entering the wood on a down stroke to the acute angle of the cut(no splintering).
A 1,000 is too much for this saw used. The way I look buying used stuff is that someone has made a mistake and the depreciation is on them.
You can pick up used cabinet saws for less.
I picked up an old powermatic for 500 at an auction.
It needed work but I knew that.
I'm more familiar with it because of the work I did on it.
I like the idea of having an old american saw.
David,
I like your idea of saving an old American saw. I'd love to find an old Oliver or someting to play with, but were I live, there are probably 2 cabinet saws within 200 miles. OK maybe three. Pickings are not particularly lucrative.
This saws previous owner was killed this spring in a traffic accident, and his family just had an estate sale for most of his woodworking tools. They prudently did not list this saw on the sale bill. They itemized the accesories, and initial cost, and decided that $1000 for his nearly $2500 investment is very reasonable. I agree. I'm sure that I could find a better deal with enough time, but then my money would not be going to help his young kids eat.
Certainly not charity, but its one of those purchases that makes me feel good, so I've decided to go for it. Plus I agree with a previous poster, sorry I can't remember who, that tools you're proud of, improve your work.
You got one heck of a deal on your saw, I think, congrats. I'm still kicking myself for not bidding that old Delta shaper up to $260. What is it they say, you only regret what you didn't buy. Have a good evening,
Steve
Steve, I'd buy under those conditions. You're doing the right thing.
We are supposed to take care of the widowed women around us.
Steve,
Save an old American saw? What nonsense. Everyone knows there is nothing better then used Jet, not even a new one! Well, except for maybe Grizzley!!!
Don
Now Don, do I sense a wee little bit of sarcasm?
I guess I'm about to get one too many table saws in my shop though, you wouldn't be interested in a nice used Delta contractor now would ya? :)
Have a good one,
Steve
Steve,
Haha. Thanks, but I'm in no need of a saw. Sarcasm yes, about Jet though, no. Read my exhange with Sarge in the 12 inch SCMS topic.
Hey, enjoy your saw though.
Don
Have been enjoying it already, great entertainment here. Don't know how I stayed away for so long. No sarcasm intended. My kind of people here. Hitachi vs. Makita vs. Dewalt ect. does not get most peoples juices flowing, but to us knotheads....
There is some angst being released about drum sanders here too. Love this place. Take care,
Steve
Steve, unless there's some other tool that you desperately need, go for it! Pretty much guaranteed you're going to love the saw (way better than the Delta ConSaw), they are not that easy to find used, and as mentioned, you'll get a chunk of that $$ back when you sell your Delta.
I have no problem with (and no interest in) Jet's "ethics" in developing their product line. Tooooo funny.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Geesh Jamie, you answering Steve or me? I was replying to Jeff. As for your perspective on the company, Too funny! But that is your choice just as mine is. If Jet was improving upon anything they copied, that would be one thing, but they're not. In fact, they do the opposite for price point.
Maybe there should just be one woodworking machine manufacturer so there would be no need to have perspectives, interests, points of view, experiences would be inconsequential, etc., and then we would all be making the same decisions you do, and then everyones decision would be ok with you. Isn't that what matters? Rhetorical, don't bother. Too funny.
Don
Yawn.....forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Too Funny!! Shallow, but too funny!
Don
Steve,
If you haven't yet made up your mind, might I suggest a look at the Shop Fox line of cabinet saws?
My understanding is that when the company was founded a few years ago, the only requests by management for their products was, Let's make everything more heavy duty and at a lower price than the others without compromising quality.
The Shop Fox cabinet saw I looked at was much more stout than even the Unisaw and passed the "nickel on its edge when starting the saw" with flying colors.
Just a suggestion. I wish you all the best with whatever you ultimately decide to do.
Regards,
williek69
williek69,
I already signed on the dotted line for this one, however, I was thinking about a Shop Fox dust collector. Its a brand I don't hear much about. It's good to hear something about them. Have you used any of their other stuff? Seems like good value for sure. Take care,
Steve
I'm not yet an owner, but the penny jar will make me one before too much longer.
I was equally impressed with their dust collection systems, jointer/planers, band saws....you name it, they have probably already improved upon it. One thing worth noting: even the folks at the Grizzly Corporate Headquarters in Bellingham, Washington push the Shop Fox brand mobile tool bases, Bench vises and Band saws. I found that rather interesting.
Well, I wish you the best in all your sawdust makin' indeavors....
Regards,
williek69
OK, so I'm must be getting old and senile or something. I just noticed that the Jet is a 12" rather then the 10" I was assuming, so, I'm going to need a new blade. Is the Forrest Woodworker II a good choice in 12"? Should I go with the damper too? I've been using a Freud in my 10" Delta, and it works OK. Is the lower cost of the Freud an indication of the Forrest being a better blade? Thanks again for you're input,
Steve
Steve,
When I read 12", I thought this entire thread was a hoax. But sure enough, Jet does make a 12". One glitch however - the 5hp motor comes in single phase or 3 phase. Suggest you find out. I'll bet it's the latter at that price. Perhaps one that's been sitting on the floor for a few years because of the motor???
Jeff
Jeff,
Yep I better check the phasing. I've got 3 phase in my shop, but not were I want the saw to sit, so... Check out post 17 if you want the history on this saw. Is there actually a benifit to 3 phase? I always had the feeling that it was just an option that a few people someplace desired, so it is avalible. Take care,
Steve
Steve,
Missed post 17. Not very knowlegable on phase differences, but do know that in industrial settings, 3ph is the norm. Doesn't seem adding a bit of wiring to reach saw should be a problem. Check link on 3 phase.
http://homedoctor.net/tipsfaq/2.4.html
Jeff
Jeff,
Great link! Thanks, it answered a lot of my questions.
Steve
There are unisaws in 12 / 14 and 16" configurations.
The 12 / 14 is avaiable in 5HP single or 3 phase.
The 16 come in 7.5 or 10HP and 3 phase.
Way much major money.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
12" -- wow! a real step up. As to Freud vs. Forrest, there have been volumes written on that topic. Freud makes excellent blades. The main discussion, of course, revolves around the WWII and the comparable blades from other companies. For moi, whatever tiny difference there is in ripping quality, it's not worth the price I'd have to pay for a Forrest over the Freud.
Technical question: What would be the disadvantages/problems with using your 10" blades on a 12" saw for the time being????? [oops, just realized the arbor size is probably different]
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/28/2003 12:09:15 PM ET by forestgirl
FG,
Actually they both have 5/8" arbors if I'm not mistaken. I haven't taken delivery yet, so its not were I can poke and prod at it. (This weekend though!)
Hey, I read a post you had to Sarge, to get the Google toolbar, so I did it. What a nifty little gadget. Thanks for the idea.
Steve
Yep, I love the Google toolbar, very handy! Now....you realize we're expecting a completed armoir or entertainment center or kitchen cabinets (with an island, of course) by Monday at noon, and no later, right??? I'll be watching the Gallery. Seriously, though, enjoy. I think this is a great find and you'll have a tool with true spirit. (I get a little mushy about these serendipity situations, sorry!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
LOL, first I've got to finish the @#@& gazebo, so I've got some room in the shop. Lets see, new saw Saturday night, gazebo finished Sunday night, I should be able to get the armoire started Monday morning, how's Monday evening sound?
Heck, if the new saw is that good, I'll be getting mushy with a serindipititious(?) moment!
Steve
The 10" blade has a 5/8 arbor and the 12" jet saw has a 1" arbor. So you cannot switch blades for the two saws. Also it is NOT SAFE to put other blades on saws that there not recommended for. Table saw with different arbors also have different .RPMs, and you could be looking for trouble. Good luck with your new saw
the Shop Fox is just a gussied up 1023 with a longer warantee. Shop Fox is owned by Woodstock International, who is owned by Grizzly. I would have to see them side by side, and have any improvements of *substance* pointed out before I would think anything else.
If you have the opportunity to get on your hands and knees to take a close up look at the underpinnings of the Shop Fox and the 1023, I think you would agree the trunion assembly alone is 1 1/2 times as stout. Weigh the miter guage on both and you'll see the decided difference I'm referring to. I guess what I'm saying is see them both first hand before you make up your mind. The 1023 is, dollar for dollar, about the best value out there for the majority of woodworkers who are not wealthy. However, if you are talking the top of the line for a few hundred dollars more.... then the shop Fox at least deserves a look. I know I'd take one over the top of the line Jet, Delta Unisaw, Grizzly and others in that approximate price range.
I do indeed wish you the best in your future woodworking exploits. Heck, looking at all the tools we can and discussing the differences is half the fun.
Regards,
williek69
Have you seen the difference in the trunnions personally? I would like very much to see proof of what you say before I believe either way. Something tells me that Grizzly wouldn't go to the expense of designing and producing a different set of molds for their Shop Fox line of saws, and I may be wrong, but until I see otherwise, I'll stick to my conclusions.
This past spring, I decided to replace the older model contractors saw that I was using for dado's with a cabinet style saw and as backup for my P66, in case it was ever down for repairs. I bought a 1023S because the price point was in line with what I could afford. I am pleased with the saw, and I am also hoping that the quality of the cast iron used will stay put over time.
Dave,
In answer to your question, yes, I have been able to get down on my hands and knees to see the underpinnings of the Shop Fox cabinet saw. At a trunion tooth width of about 1 1/4 inches wide, it was beefier than the Delta Unisaw next to it, beefier than the newest Jet combination cabinet/contractor saw (I don't recall the specific model), beefier than any contractor saw I've seen. (I'll admit I haven't seen them all) I visited the Grizzly Showdroom in Bellingham, Washington about 6 weeks ago. I peeked under their 1023's and they, too, aren't quite as beefy as the Shop Fox.
That being said, I was very impressed with the fit and function of the Grizzlies. They absolutely cannot be beat for the money. They do produce a saw that should last any home craftsman several lifetimes. As a current Federal Civil Service worker, I can also attest to the many quality Grizzly Industrial quality lathes, milling machines, drill presses, sheet metal brakes (.....well you get the idea) that the Federal Government puts to use every day.
I hope this helps.
Happy woodworking,
williek69
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