I’m designing a shallow hang-on-the-wall display case for a baseball jersey. The rough measurements are 25″ wide x 33″ tall x 2″ deep (internal mxs). The front (hinged) will be fairly narrow molding with acrylic rather than glass (per client’s request). The back I’m not sure yet — but lightweight.
Type of wood not chosen yet either, but either oak, mahogany or birch are likely.
Can’t decide how to join the corners of the cabinet. First thought was miter joints with splines. Once the jersey is mounted, the case would not be opened on any kind of regular basis, so appearance of the joints not as strong a factor as it would be in, say, a china cabinet or whatever. Suggestions??
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
f_g, I would just build it like a box with a rabetted bottom and dovetail or box joints. Then cut it in half or whatever on your table saw. After that apply a slightly oversized molding to the top with basic 45deg miters and insert and pin the acrylic. Now all you have to do is apply the hinges, finsih and your done.
Steve - in Northern California
Forest Girl,
With something that large with the added weight of the plastic, I would be a little nervous about a simple miter joint, splined or not. Have you considered a hidden dovetail joint? They're a bit of work; but when finished the dovetails are invisible from both the inside and outside-- they look like a simple miter joint--but they have the strength of a dovetail joint. The best description that I've seen of how to cut these joints is in one of Charlesworth's books (I can't remember which one off the top of my head). You might go to the library and look in his book to see if it's something you might want to try.
Alan
Hi Alan, thanks for the suggestion. I'm hoping to avoid dovetailing with this one. The "model" I'm working from is an on-line outfit's low-end display, which is pretty simply, explaining why they can sell it for less than $75 (before shipping). Of course, I can't see what kind of joinery they use in the main case (the doors are very simple looking). Fortunately, these clients are business acquaitances and are willing to let me work this out, so that they can buy locally rather than from and anonymous dot.com.
Perhaps I should use some wood techie numbers to figure out about how much this case will weigh. I'm thinking that the hanging mechanism (keyhole, maybe?) should put the weight on the side pieces, so when it's closed (and the door weight is resting on the hinges and the lower member) the top won't be take a huge burden. However, on the rare occasion it is opened, there will be the weight of the door hanging on the hinges in the right side.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
f_g, when I said simple miters I meant that this would be done on the molding which would be attached to the face of the front portion remaining after cutting the box. The box joints could be simple brad nailed butt joints since they wont be seen. Obviously a box joint would be stronger and a dovetail stronger yet.
Steve - in Northern California
Hi Steve! Didn't mean to ignore you! Just as I finished my reply to Alan, I realized payroll taxes were due today, and had to run off and get that done before opening up the store today. Whew!
[A] It took me a second look to understand the idea of building a box and then cutting it, but I "see" what you're getting at now. I think originally I was envisioning rabbeting an inset into the back of the molding, and just setting the acrylic inside that to make the door. This would keep it pretty light-weight, but perhaps there's a problem I'm not seeing with this approach?
[B] I'm not sure I'm translating your suggestions correctly, but here goes. By box joint, we're talking finger-jointed, correct? And the butt joints mentioned in your second post (with brads) are a different idea, no? If I did that, I think I'd want to either reinforce with dowels, or make a case rabbet joint. Dowels are appealing at this point, as my saw is still being pretty cranky, and I only have a 1/4" router up and running (still have to get a router table for the big Freud).
Question for you, since I haven't had a minute since early this afternoon: Any guesstimate as to how much this little cabinet would weigh? I haven't found a site yet with weight info in it.
Now, I'm going over to see how you're doing on your marble-supporting legs question! Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Ya f_g.. Ok.. box and finger joints are one in the same, the butt joints are just made by butting the two pieces together with a little glue and then tacking it with some brads or finish nails.
As for the weight, good question, how beefy do you plan to make it. I can't see where strength is any big factor if you use a fairly thin acrylic and 1/4" ply for the back. Is this to be finished or painted ? Does the customer have a wood species preference or is it up to you. What I'm thinking is that the box portion could be painted black inside and out and then let the moulding provide the finished appearance. The way I see it, unless you are looking at it almost directly from the side or bottom, you shouldn't even see the box portion.
By the way, any plans to add lighting to it ?
Also the terrible table picture is posted.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/1/2002 3:13:10 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Hiya Steve, I saw the table pic. Nice piece! Hope the hickory works :-)
The 1/4" ply and thin acrylic are what I have in mind. Case is only 2" deep, and you saw the other mxs in my original post. Doesn't seem like it should be that heavy, but I'd be a bit nervous about using a simple butt joint -- hence the thought to either reinforce with dowels, or rabbet or tongue-and-groove that joint to provide more glue surface.
They want finished (not painted), and have not selected the tone yet. I'm leaning toward ash for the wood now, because it's properties are similar to oak but it's lighter weight.
I think they're depending on ambient and room lighting. With the case so shallow, that should be OK. The wife has installed UV protective windows in this dedicated sport-memorabilia room.
Thanks for posting again!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hello F-G
Looks like some good ideas generated in this thread. Here's my 2cents worth:
1) Weight is not going to be a big problem here, in my opinion. I've built some pretty heavy display boxes to hang on walls, and they've held up over time. Because the door is somewhat wide, I would look for lots of strength in the door itself. I would probably build it as a picture frame, essentially, mitered at the corners (then reinforced with splines or keys). I think that the width of the stock here is pretty important: I would go 2" x 3/4" or so, since the wider the stock, the less chance for the door to sag over time (the greater the surface area across the miter).
2) I would also feel fine about making the door with lap or bridle joints.
3) To hold the plexiglas in place, you can either install it in a groove or rabbet the back. Rabbeting the back is probably easier, unless you pre-finish the door stock (it could be a real pain to try to finish the wood on the door while not gumming up the plexiglas). The advantage to using the groove instead of the rabbet would be that you could run a bead of adhesive inside the groove so that the plexiglas and the wooden frame are actually bonded, thus creating a much stronger door which would be less prone to sagging. I don't think this is necessary, but if you're really thinking about overkill, it would be one way to go.
4) As far as joinery for the box itself is concerned, go with any of the previously mentioned. I do think that splined or keyed miters would be fine, although box/finger joints would be swell too.
5) I agree that 1/4" ply is fine for the back (you could paint the back white on the face that shows, to reflect a little light and also make the jersey stand out a bit-- just a thought).
6) This sounds like it might be sort of a toughie in terms of not being a real high-budget job, but still having some important parameters to meet (being strong enough to function well over time and looking nice enough to be a display unit)... personally, I know that I can cut and reinforce miters a lot quicker than I can set up to do box joints, although I'm sure that this isn't the case with everybody. Overall, success with this might mean finding approaches that are quick but still look nice & work well. Hmm, maybe that is the case with most stuff, come to think of it.
Hopefully this wasn't too long-winded for you!
Best,Chris Gleason
Gleason Tableworks
http://www.interestingfurniture.com
Chris, Thanks! Not at all long-winded. On the contrary, I appreciate the details, which I'm going to go back and read more thoroughly in a few minutes.
Would you be so kind as to take a look at the cases on the following page, especially the one at the very top/right (red&white jersey in small, light-colored case)?
http://www.displayco.com/jerseys.htm
This is, without a doubt and by far, the least expensive jersey display I have seen in my search on the internet for examples. What do you think of the design (as far as you can see it in such a vague picture)? The molding for the door appears to be very narrow, and very simply joined.
My clients are not hurting for $$, and I'm sure I could present them with something closer to $100 and they'd have no problem if I could explain why it would be better. On the other hand, as I'm wanting to develop a line of display cases for various sports collectibles (Go Mariners! :-) ) I'd probably have a couple of different jersey case designs to cover different budgets and levels of persnicketyness.
The jersey for this particular case is Cal Ripken's, and I'm not sure yet whether it's home or away, so don't know whether a white background will work. They're going over stain choices for the wood tonight, and will probably get back to me tomorrow.
Off to read the details. Thanks!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Very interesting link. As you mentioned, they definitely use a thinner molding for the door than I'd use... I really think that a wider molding is more likely to resist sagging over time, and you could probably state that and charge a bit more accordingly-- the difference in material cost is tiny, but it is a benefit that someone should pay extra for.
And now to unleash my real question: What is your motivation to develop a line of such cases, do you have a ready market for them? If you do, that's a good start. If not, hmm. That website has them for REALLY cheap, and I can't see how I personally could make any money at all trying to compete with them. I'd have to go in the other direction in order to charge a higher price: I'd have to make a display that is either A) aesthetically more pleasing or B) functionally superior, or ideally both, because then the end price would reflect the combination. Maybe doing a birds eye maple case with solid brass hinges that sells for $600 or something like that. It is the classic pricing pyramid: lots of people want cheap stuff, but it is hard for a small shop to price as low as factories. That almost forces small shops to seek out higher end jobs, which are fewer in number, but then again, if you make a reasonable amount of $ on them, you don't need as many.
This discussion interests me because I have a bunch of items I'd like to do as limited production runs, but it seems a very tricky proposition. I have a line of jewelry boxes that I make and that I'd like to offer to wholesalers to get the volume of sales up. But I haven't yet found any galleries willing to pay what I need to make the work adequately profitable. So what do I do? Well, hold out for the right place that will pay enough, analyze the bejeezus out of my designs and see what I can speed up in production, and sell the ocaisional one retail in the meantime. My point is that I enjoy the challenge of planning & efficiently executing small production runs of stuff (mirrors, boxes, frames, etc.) but no matter how clever I am, I just can't usually even come close to the low prices of the big boys. That means that I can't get distracted from profitability by trying, and I need to move to a ballfield where I have a chance of occaisionally hitting a home run (to keep the Cal Ripken/baseball metaphor going).
Another example: I was just asked to design a small, limited number of desk accessories. Great, I thought, that'll be fun. And it is fun, but it is a real balancing act financially, and I'm not yet sure if I'll end up with something that is borderline profitable or a real stellar seller (I won't even start it if it isn't bound to be one of these!) Thumb through an Ikea catalog sometime: it is mind-numbing to see how cheap their desk accessories are-- $2.50 for a cd rack?? I couldn't even consider making that for less than $25. Since there is always somebody out there who can do things cheaper, it is up to us an smart business people to find ways to do products BETTER. "How low can we price this?" is a question fraught with peril, whereas "How can I improve its quality (and therefore the price)?" is a question that will keep us in business. Not that I have this all figured out and wrapped up in a neat little package-- I'm still working on this stuff day in and day out. There are people who do very very well in the production world (with desk sets, jewelry boxes, cutting boards, you name it)-- I am just not one of them yet.
Again, just my 2cents worth.
Best, Chris Gleason
Gleason Tableworks
http://www.interestingfurniture.com
Hi again, Chris. I have some thoughts [as usual, LOL!] about the quandries you expressed in your post -- more on that later -- but to address the second paragraph, yes I have a ready market. Don't know how big it is, though, with regard to signed jerseys, shoes, gloves and such. I have, via a long and odd meandering path, found myself running a store (on the island I inhabit in Puget Sound) which sells sports cards and various games. My main clientele are kids, but I have a growing number of adults who buy also. Although we don't carry much in the memorabilia line (authentic autographs are so hard to find!), many customers have obtained signatures of the Mariners, Sonics, and members of the visiting teams that come to Seattle.
[My first paid project was actually several years ago for a mom who was giving her son a signed Gary Payton autographed basketball shoe (he doesn't look all that big on TV, but I can assure you, he ain't got dainty feet!). At any rate, I made that (maple cutting-board base with an inset acrylic top that fit over the shoe) with a Dremel and a circular saw.]
At any rate, I have one customer who's getting a signed Ken Griffey, Jr., jersey in a month or so, and he's agreed to let me display the jersey in my shop if I give him a healthy discount on the case. I have a couple bats I could make displays for also. I can display this material and solicit customers, advertise locally and in Seattle/Tacoma/Bellingham, contact a handful of other card-shop owners I know, and gather momentum I think. I like the idea of doing these cases, if the demand is truly there, because they are relatively straight-forward and lend themselves to production work, and of course, I'm in a pretty good sports market here in the Seattle area.
The cases at the site I sent you to are much cheaper than other sites I've visited, and they don't include shipping. See this link for more representative pricing:
http://displaycase.das-mall.com/etchedjerseycases.htm
I think I would start with the lower-end pieces (better looking, though, than the one I referred you to), and then produce a couple of knock-out-WOW pieces just to see who bites. You're definitely on-target with the problem of competing with factory-produced items.
There may also be a small market for gaming miniatures (this is a whole other world, that I won't go into here).
Now! am going back to consider your dilemma (sp?) with the desk accessories, etc. Before the sports cards, I retailed gifts, antiques, collectibles, and have some experience at the gift shows. Maybe I can contribute an idea or two.
Take care!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Chris, back again. Am digesting the info about your jewelry boxes and desk accessories. You're right that us WWers can't compete with Ikea. But then again, Ikea and their ilk produce cookie-cutter, basic items. In that you are a designer, the challenge is to design stuff that's appealing to the people who can pay for them at a level commensurate with what you need to make the production worth your while. It appears, from looking at your web site, that you've enjoyed (and earned) some considerable success at that effort!
Could it be that you need to bypass the wholesalers and go direct? It's pretty hard for me to see how an individual can produce on a level needed by wholesalers, at the price they need, and make enough money to be satisfactory for the WWer. Obviously, you're doing the direct-sale thing to a certain extent with your web site. That approach probably works well for the furniture items, and it appears, looking at that site, that you're targeting mostly commercial clients.
There are a few things I could suggest:
(May be a dumb idea): Charge for the design phase. Are you doing this? I don't know if this is an acceptable practice or not. Just an idea.
Get in touch with the retailers directly, for instance by renting a booth at a large gift show in your area. These shows are where the retailers (like me at the time) go to view merchandise for the upcoming season, collect catalogs, place orders, meet new wholesalers, etc. I'd suspect that there's one near Madison at least once or twice a year. If you don't know, I could find out for you. > I met a truly talented woodworker at the Seattle gift show a couple of years ago. He had a small booth with some very high-end furniture, jewelry boxes and yes! even cutting boards displayed, along with his portfolio of other items he had made under commission for clients. His stuff sold from $24 (cutting boards) to thousands. He consigned some of his smaller stuff to me for a 60/40 split (he got the 60) and it was enjoyable to have his work displayed in our shop. I don't know how he did at the show, but if you want I can contact him and see if I can put the two of you together. Even if he didn't make a lot of retail connections, he had hundreds or thousands of well-heeled business owners walking by his space every day!>There were several WWers at that show, selling such things as laser-etched gift items (business card holders for instance), log furniture, outdoor lounging-type stuff, wall sconces.
(suggestion more oriented to the high-end, one-of-a-kind pieces): Join a cooperative-type WWing gallery. Don't know if they have one in Madison. There's one here in the Seattle area (see: http://www.nwfinewoodworking.com/index.html ) Their "cut" is big, from what I've heard, but if I were able to do that level of WWing and wanted to start building a clientele, I'd consider it advertising money well-spent. In Seattle, there's no way a single person could get a fraction of the exposure being in Pioneer Square brings them if their work is displayed at the NWFW Gallery.
Specifically with respect to your comment on makeing products better since we certainly can't make them cheaper (or even as cheap), this is certainly true. But the part that eludes me (because I am not a designer, in fact have no artistic talent that's unrelated to music!) is envisioning the things that are attractive to today's major purchasers. Trends are so important (not "fads" but trends) and knowing where things are headed when designing stuff for people's homes is pretty hard. In our geographic area, the big spenders are those who have the $$$, not too many kids or at least not real young kids, and yet the adults are still in the accumulating stage. When they get to about 50 or 55 years, they stop accumulating and start downsizing! Those folks might buy a rocker for their daughter and her impending child though (and spend big bucks on it!)
Well, I'm rambling and verrrrry sleepy, so off to zzzz-land. Later!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/2/2002 1:39:54 AM ET by forest_girl
I seldom, post (or even read) through this forum much anymore, but this one caught my eye. The woodworking part is easy, marketing and selling is the tough, but please don't give your work away. Just this post has cost you about a hundred bucks in time spent. Produce good work and sell at a fair price...but don't give it away...best of luck to you.
Hi Exhibitor! Sorry you're not around much anymore.
I don't plan on giving my work away, but I'm starting small and working my way up :-) Probably will have 2 pretty different populations to sell to the first year or so, with prices and design criteria appropriate to the specific group. I'll get some examples set up at the shop, and provide an album to show off pieces that won't fit due to space limitations (it's a pretty small shop). And, I know pretty well whom to show off to as far as the higher end stuff goes.
As far as the time spent posting goes, you'll notice it was 10:30 pm my time -- I was waiting for the Mariners to decide whether to hit the ball or not (Not! unfortunately), and I type in the 80's and 90's, so it wasn't too huge of a time investment. Truth be told, though, I probably spend a little more time chatting here than I should. Oh, well, it's a great group and I'm learning a lot! Also have a huuuge amount to learn.
Stop by again!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi there f_g... well you got me going so I took the day off and made a display case like you are. I made mine smaller to fit what I was putting in it. I made it out of white oak and used finger/box joints. The back is 1/4 oak plywood and the front is a piece of acrylic out of an old picture frame that I had. I made some molding out of red oak and set the acrylic up against then pinned it with 5/8" brads the 1-1/2" hinges are set on the side. When I cut the box, I cut back from the front 1/2". Its not heavy at all and I don't see any potential to sag. I was think that if it was a problem I could allways set guide pins in the the far side to keep it aligned. I'm headed back out to take it apart, sand, finish then reassemble. You'll have pictures in a couple of days and maybe, just maybe, a drawing or two.
Steve - in Northern California
Steve! You are simply tooooo cool to believe! Wow.
Am really looking forward to seeing the pictures. If you make drawings, I'm gonna owe you big time! (What kind of salmon do you like, anyway?)
One question now, more later: When you say you pinned the acrylic, do you just shoot the brads right through the acrylic and into the molding? Since 2 weeks ago was the first time I laid hands on a brad nailer, I've not thought about being able to use it to fasten acrylic. Very slick!
Well, Superman, I'll wait for the pics and see if I'm able to figure it all out. You going to let us know what you're putting in it, or is that a surprise (or a secret)?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi there.. As to the question about the brads, I set them into the molding just like picture framers do. They actually have a special brad and tool for doing this. Rocklers has them in their catalog and on the web. It probably easier to see than it is to explain.
View Image View ImageView Image Heres a few of the different types. Notice how the brad is being pushed into the side of the molding. Its actually left proud about 1/4" and thats what holds the acrylic. The trick is to get them in so that the acrylic is tight against the molding. The cheap way is to use a nail set and a speed clamp, (yep I'm cheap).
I got side tracked with a couple of pieces of 6/4 x 24" x 8' salvaged clear heart redwood. I'll probably get the display box finished tomorrow evening. By the way, I managed to get four 5/4 by 8" x 8' pieces out of the salvaged wood. When I ran it through the planer it came out with a fantastic bunch of worm holes. It looks like the bugs are long gone but I'm going to treat it anyway. I'm not sure what to make with the redwood. With all of the worm holes it needs to be something that is displayed and not really used. Most of the structural strength is gone out of it. Got any ideas?
Steve - in Northern California
Hi Steve, you a lucky boy! That redwood must be gorgeous!
Are you going to fill the worm holes with epoxie, or leave them au naturale? I'm afraid I'm not a wellspring of ideas design-wise. I was thinking part of it could go for a pair of stunningly-design lamps, because with the right light and shade you could really bring out the beauty of the wood. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet this morning, so that's as far as I get. :)
I'll keep an eye out for the display pics. BTW, remember the thread from qsawn, who was having backlash problems with his Jet handwheel? Did you see the link I posted for him, going to Dizzy's Shop? He hasn't tried it yet, but I think he will. The procedure is complicated ("...worse than filing a tax return" were his words). You've mucked around in saw guts -- whadya think?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes I did see that one and I checked it out. Mine is not all that bad and doesn't affect the blade alignment so I just set it on the rise and don't worry about it. It isn't all that complicated but it would require near full disassembly of the saw. Its not something I would bother with on an otherwise well running saw. I will probably overhaul mine in the fall when the weather turns and the wood gets squirely, you know, the crooked board moisture meter effect. Thats when I plan to pull the top and wings off for resurfacing. I could then work on those other problems without having to have another set of universal joints put in my arms.
I like the idea of the lamps! I think I will epoxy fill the wormholes because they are fairly fragile. The wood is definitly old growth and probably cut on site in the mid 1800's. It has a deep, dark red color and is quarter sawn. Still, it had only a slight cup which the planer took care of.Steve - in Northern California
Hi again Steve. Just realized I never heard how the little display case project went! I stopped by Rockler Hardware on the way home from Woodinville this morning, just to look at the different woods there. Since I don't have a planer, I'm going to have to get some wood that at least finished on two sides, and then joint it on the tablesaw. Anywho, looking at the 3/4" stuff, it almost looked too thick. What thickness did you use on your unit?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Oh yeah, I was just looking at that this morning and saying to myself, "I promised a very nice person something and I'd better follow through". I will but this week has been a little nuts. This weekend I have a couple of prospective investors comming by to look at my business plan and see my work. Then, Sunday, as you very well know, is Moms Day.
However, to answer the thicknes question, I planed the 3/4 Oak to 1/2". The piece I had laying around was s4s and like most of my wood it was salvaged stuff. With the dimensions and such that you gave, I felt 1/2" hardwood could easily provide the structural strenght if box joints were used. I didn't think dovetails would be necessary or cost effective. The hardest part is cutting the face away from the base. I started it then realized this could be dangerous so I used an 1/8" combo blade and made the first cut then cut some 1/8" strips and stuck them in the cut and taped it so it wouldn't fall out. I repeated the process as I went around the box and never had a problem.
The other thing about using a hardwood is that you don't have to worry about the hinge screws working loose. You can mortise them in without any problem.
Now that I have the basic prototype done for you, (smaller dimensions), I'll build the real thing, full size and with more accurate box joints so you can see how pretty they can be when they are done right. I'll try it in 1/2" but if it seems to flimsy after its separated then I'll try 3/4.Steve - in Northern California
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