Hi, gang!
I need some thoughts on joinery for table legs to table aprons for a new (to me) table design I’m working. The legs are at 45° to the corners of the table, and the aprons are mitered to meet the sides of the legs flush. My problem is that the legs are 1 1/8″ maximum thickness (per the customer’s request). Anything thicker looks clunky for this design. If I use a tenon, it’s only going to be 1/2″ deep into the leg on each side.
Possible thoughts have been:
- sliding dovetail: But how would I cut it at 45°.
- keyed dovetail: same problem
- Glued and screwed through the front, with accent plugs. I tried this on the mockup, and it is pretty strong. I would use 2 on each apron.
Let me know if you have any good ideas. I’ve been working on this mockup for a couple of days now, and want the joinery as sound as possible.
Thanks,
Walnutz
PS If this is confusing, and you need a picture, I’ve made a mockup out of poplar with two legs and an apron.
Replies
Here are some pictures to hopefully clarify what I'm talking about.
Start with 10/4 stock or laminate so the leg, in section, looks like a baseball 'home plate" in the area behind the rails. Offset the tenons a bit. In the example, the tenons are ~ 13/16".
Ed
Thanks for the drawing. Your drawing changes the design of the leg and apron, as I want the faces of the legs on the bias. Also, the customer doesn't want a leg that thick, and that is why I'm kind of stumped. I appreciate your reply.
Walnutz
Edited 2/22/2007 10:33 am ET by Walnutz
Ed's thicker leg only has to be that way behind the aprons. That extra thickness won't be seen unless one is looking up from below.
Sapwood
I don't get what you're saying. The corner he shows is the inside, not the outside. The 2 1/4" thickness of the leg shows on the outside of the corner of the table, otherwise there's no meat for the tenons.
Walnutz
Ooops! I had the leg oriented the wrong way. Sorry for the confusion.
Ed
I came up with another solution. Half lap the apron miters, the apron would be glued up first as a rectangle .The points cut off at a 45° degree angle.The legs notched for the apron to fit, either a U shaped or L shaped with a corner block. The apron can be fastened with dowels or even lag screws thru the top of the apron to the legs.I like the U shaped idea better,the corner blocks would be a little fussier to do than an L shape.
no biscuit mike
I'm not a proponent of biscuits but double biscuits might be the answer on this small table.
mike
The table is going to be 24" X 48", and I'm not a proponent of biscuits. I'm definately looking for a better solution than biscuits, but thanks for the reply.
Walnutz
Hi Walnutz ,
It looks like a sliding DT at about 3/8" deep as wide as possible oriented so you could use a router in the leg and hand cut the apron , back them up with some substantial corner blocks .
Use the corner blocks in any event to reinforce the rather thin leg .
" Per customers request " I never let the customer dictate the engineering only the basic design . Imo , as a professional you need to try and not compromise structural integrity while meeting the demands of your clients .
If your clients knew better than you , they could make the piece them selves .
I understand your desire to please your client , but perhaps you could beef up the scale a bit while retaining the same basic looks .
good luck dusty
Dusty
The sliding dovetail is probably the way I was going to go. My customer is a referral from a long time customer, but not very flexible. "She knows what she wants", and the very first thing we talked about during my sitdown with her and her husband was that she didn't want really thick legs. If it can't be done, she doesn't want the table, and then I'm back to the drawing board. I'm getting paid for my design time, but not enough to build 3 or 4 different mockups to try and "convince" her.
I want to make this work because she also is talking about alot of built in cabinetry, which is what I built for the referrer (is that a word?). $40K in built ins last year, and she knows the prices and compliments my work.
I consider myself a pretty good salesman, but I am also pretty sure I won't sell her on thicker legs.
I've never done a sliding dovetail joint that short. Do you think that it will be strong enough to be worth the effort? I'm definately going to reinforce the corners from apron to apron, attached to the back of the leg and aprons, with a staunch corner block that won't be seen.
Thanks a ton for your help in discussing this matter.
Walnutz
Walnutz
I think sliding dovetails are a good idea as well, but you could probably use stout dowels or mortise and loose tenon joinery, both of which are easier to do. If you design it so that the dowels or loose tenons are at different heights in the joint, you won't have problems of them running into each other inside the leg. Just a thought. I would be sure to use corner blocks as well.
Jim
Staggered dowels, or/and a corner block cut to fit around the leg. A barefaced tenon would work, but I'd stagger dowel this one - if you want to get technical, dowel both rails together through the leg if you trust your marking out, using 3" approx long dowels.
Shouldn't be a problem, walnutz.
Cheers,
eddie
You have a tough problem. How about a mortise and tenon joint oriented in line with the apron? The apron shoulder would be at 45 degrees and the mortise would be at 45 degrees to the leg surface. If you have access to a horizontal mortiser, I think this would be possible, using loose tenons. (cut mortise in both pieces) This would give you a longer tenon and more glue area. The down side is that you would have to build clamping fixtures for the mortiser, but that should be straightforward. It is also possible to build a fixture for a router to do the same thing.
The other thought was to add some meat to the aprons on the inside, behind the leg and create some joinery behind the leg. I don't have any specifics but maybe you can get a creative idea. A variation on this idea would be to create a one piece apron with internal structure, leaving notches for the legs. Then mount the legs into the notches at the end of the process.
Keep us posted and show pictures.
Good luck, Tom.
I am assuming that the pic you have posdted is the front(outside) of the apron. If it were me, and assuming that you will not have a glass top on the table, I would use floating tennons mitered on the leg ends so that they will meet in the middle of the mortises. After the structure is together I would use a fairly stout corner block on the inside. Have it taller than wide, and screw it to both aprons and to the leg on the back side.
Although this is not the most "glamourous" solution to the problem, it should serve to make the joint plenty strong, and you will have a good strong corner to attach the top too.
Peter
www.jpswoodworking.com
Walnutz
I just tried to do some 1 1/8" legs with sliding dovetails, 3/8" deep. It was very very difficult (on normal 90 deg sides) without creating a very thin sliver of wood between the two slots or using a tiny dovetail. Pocket screws ? Maybe splines before biscuits?
To everybody
Thanks for all the input. Today, I built a jig to hold the aprons at 45° to create sliding dovetails. I beefed up the apron thickness from 7/8" to 1 1/8", and at 45° there is enough extra wood to create a pretty decent dovetail tenon that will enter perpindicular to the side of the leg. At 7/16" deep, it will leave 1/4" in between the two dovetails for some strength. Also, just to be safe, I'm going to use a hefty corner block to strengthen the corner. I want these joints to outlive me, so I won't take any chances. Thanks again for the help, and when the tables are complete, I'll post some pictures.
Walnutz
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