Replies

1. 
   AlbionWood | Dec 01, 2004 09:41am | #1

   Not sure I understand the geometry exactly, but for strong knockdown joints, nothing beats a wedged through-tenon.

   "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

   
   

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   Edited 12/1/2004 2:10 am ET by AlbionWood

1. 
   budreaux | Dec 02, 2004 06:49pm | #9

   Have you ever seen or done a wedge tenon either through the side of a post or maybe on the outside using a dado to rest the wedge in?  Idea is to leave a flat surface but get the knock down option.

1. 
   DougF | Dec 02, 2004 08:19pm | #10

   Have I visioned this correctly: The end of the tenon extends either even with or slightly proud of the bottom of dado'ed slot and the wedge is thus hidden and does not have to be driven flush with the tenon gaining "gripping " surface to later remove the wedge?  I like the concept but you still have to address the need for the tenon to extend though both rails and substantially into the stile to gain the stiffness need to resist the lateranl forces of someone resting against the side board.

   I have never tried removeable wedges: can they actually be remove?  That would eliminate the small "D" holes to house the nuts.  I suppose that you could also use a through-tenon and hrough-pegs that could be knocked out for breakdown. 

   Treefreak, I didn't intend to steal your tread but I wanted to make sure I understood his suggestion.

   Doug

2. 
   AlbionWood | Dec 02, 2004 10:09pm | #11

   This is what I was talking about:

   Vertical Wedge 1

   Vertical Wedge 2

   I can't see any way to do something like that in a dado, such that the wedge is flush with the outside edge of the post. But, here is another way to do it: Think of a drawbored M&T joint. Instead of two round holes slightly offset, cut one square hole in the tenon and a rectangular hole in the post, such that you can insert a wedge to tighten the joint. Now cut off the projecting ends of the wedge. You'll have to use a drift to get the wedge out when you want to break it down, but it isn't hard.

   Tage Frid's book has lots of drawings of different ways to make tusk-tenons. So does the newer Taunton book on Joinery, I think."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   budreaux | Dec 03, 2004 05:04pm | #12

   That sounds like something I want to try.  I'll try it out on some scraps and see how it holds.   I'm a newbie and most likely prone to screwing something up.  Thanks for the help guys. 

1. 
   DougF | Dec 03, 2004 05:33pm | #13

   I hope you'll post pics of the finished project.  It sounds interesting.  Good lock.

   Doug

2. 
   joinerswork | Dec 01, 2004 08:58pm | #2

   tree,

   If I understand your description, you will have a piece (the back) running diagonally from the top of the headboard to a point partway down the back rail.

   I'd look at attaching the headboard and the lower end of the back with bedbolts.  Run the bolts up through the head and side rails into captured nuts.  Use mortise and tenon joints.

   If you want the back to be removeable from the headboard, you could use the same method.  Use a bedbolt cover (brass) or fabricate a rosette to cover the head of the bolt.

   Cheers,

   Ray

3. 
   DougF | Dec 01, 2004 09:26pm | #3

   Treefreak,

   I am assuming that the taperred portion will join the headboard to form a 90 degree angle.  The suggestion of through and wedged tenons may do the trick but they can not be knowck-down once in place.  I think an equally effective approach might be to treat the tapered back board in the same manner that you use to join the bed rail to the headboard.  I would use floating tenons penetrating at least 2" into the headboard rail and the tapered rail and spaced every 12 to 14".  Secured with 3/8 case-hardened bolds, through-drilled and bolted in the tapered portion's bottom rail using a "D" shaped housing for the nuts.  If the back will be visible, the nut access holes can be covered with decorative covers matching those used for the headboard bolts.   

   Doug

1. 
   budreaux | Dec 02, 2004 03:36am | #4

   I was thinking of dropping it from a 31" height in 3 gradual curves down to the side rail.  It would attach to a 36" headboard at a right angle.  If I use 3/4 stock for the back piece can I use the bolts? I'll use the bed bolts for the rails.  I was inspired by a metal version of this design that was welded.  I wanted something different than a twin bed or traditional daybed.  Any suggestions welcome.  I should add that I am designing it in Arts & Crafts style. 

   Edited 12/1/2004 7:39 pm ET by treefreak

1. 
   DougF | Dec 02, 2004 05:49pm | #5

   I assume that you are using frame and panel construction for the head and side boards.  I think 3/4 inch is too thin to support the lateral forces on the wood and I would consider using at least 1 or 1-1/8" rails and stiles.   Using a long drill bit and centering jig, I would run through the bed rail, the side board rail and into the stile to provide better support at the critical joint junctures.   Depending on the number of panels/stiles, you may need to use a combination of tenons/bolt supports into the stiles and the side rail.   

   Sounds like an interesting design and I look forward to seeing the finished project.

   Doug

1. 
   budreaux | Dec 02, 2004 06:04pm | #6

   I'll beef it up.  I am going to use 3 1/2" posts and 1 3/4" for the bed rails.  Do you think 3/4 is OK for the panel frames?  I was thinking of 3/4 for the back piece but I may bump that to 4/4.  As for the joinery I am going to try the bolts along with mortise & tenon to attach the back to the headbaord.  Do you think an unglued M&T on the bottom of the back piece  to attach to the bed rail is a good idea.  Just insert the back piece into the rail and then attach the headboard?  Pin the M&T?

   Thanks for your help. 

1. 
   DougF | Dec 02, 2004 06:21pm | #7

   I'm not sure I understand.  The head board bolts to the bed rails. No problem.  The side board, also frame and panel, should be secured to the head board post either with tenons and through bolted or you could use a sliding dovetail.  In my opinion the side board needs more support than simple pegged M&T's.  The demensions of the panels are a matter of taste and design and are not really a structure issue since the need to float unless you are using a ply core, in which case you can glue them.  I think net 4/4 is the minimum you should consider for the rails and stiles if you intend to through bold.  IMHO, 7/4 net for the bed rail is a bit beefy and is certainly not necessary to support the bed.  Net 5/4 or even 1-1/8 is plenty assuming you are using any of the furniture-grade hardwoods.

   Doug 

2. 
   budreaux | Dec 02, 2004 06:45pm | #8

   Yeah, that may be bit a bit much for aesthetics.  5/4 sounds good.  I am using white oak.  I'll go with the m&t that are bolted through.  Thanks for the help!