This Christmas I can have a Planner or a Joinier.
Which is the best way to go for the Planner or Joiner? And please tell why you think so and thx.
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In lieu of someone who knows what they are talking about I will give you this....<?xml:namespace /><o:p />
I would say that you want to aim for both at some point if you want to work with rough stock, but I would lean to the joiner first. You’ll be able to buy 4S stock and clean the sides for joining, and you can dimension the thickness of the stock from ¾ down if needed.<o:p />
I don’t think that the planer is much use without a joiner.<o:p />
But, hey I could be totally wrong.<o:p />
Mark
Mark, I've noticed some HTML code (or ?) in your posts. If you want to write your own code, rather than let the composition window do it, you need to check the "Source" option at the bottom of the text box (it defaults to WYSIWYG).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks forestgirl-
no, not trying to code. thats from word....just hate not spell checking....its the nuns
This is my favorite question.
In my mind and experience, there is no question that the planer is the better tool. While it is quite simple to flatten a face or straighten an edge with a hand plane, it is not so easy to thickness a board (actually it is easy but time consuming). I don't own a jointer, and have no desire or need to, but my planer is one of the few power tools I wouldn't want to live without.
Rob Millard
If you are going to work with material that has been surfaced 4 sides when you get it or flatten on side with a hand plane then go for the planer. If you opt for the jointer then you can flatten both sides and both edges----but the two faces and the two edges most likely not be parallel respectively.
But, once you have 2 sides flat and square the other two can be done on the table or band saw....a million ways to do one thing.<?xml:namespace /><o:p />
I've been buying swag wood and cleaning it up and I don't think that I could have done it with hand plane. Well I could but it would take me a long time, and for now that is not a luxury that I have.
I’ve always been told that a warped board put into a planer is just going to be a thinner warped board on the other side. So, the first thing to do is to get it flat.... I'm sticking with the joiner....first
good decision------I still feel like the two machines go hand in hand.
Please follow the thread on the subject, "Rigid or Grizzly Jointer", directly above yours.
To make a long story short.. you need both.
I started with the planer. mainly because I wanted to take store bought lumber and get it down to 5/8 or 1/2 in. it served the purpose well. Now that I buy rough lumber the jointer is a must. flatten one side then run it throught the planer to make the 2 sides parallel. then back to the jointer for the edge.
What ever you do, buy the bigest machine you can afford. you won't be sorry in the long run.
rlwiseman 19,
Okay, lets do a reality check. When you say you can have either planer or jointer..my thoughts go immediately to swmbo ...and do you want to get as much as you can with the permission...or the most value for an evolving/aspiring furniture maker?
Generally, the jointer is more expensive but is important to working with rough stock which is usually about 25 cents a board foot cheaper than S3S. So one might conclude I'll get the jointer and save money as I go along...
On the other hand, I find buying S3S is a lot less expensive than rough stock. I can do a much better grain selection, it's more stable, less waste and generally more suitable to my current level of knowledge. However, if I can't thickness my wood so that all pieces are equal the joinery will be inferior. The planer is much more valueable. Likewise, building drawers and the like with resawn stock and planed to size is much easier with the planer.
It really comes down to what you want to build and will it be with solid wood or ply. I use a lot of re-claimed lumber (dumpster diving) and have a couple of simple jigs to use my planer as a jointer...I could probably do that with a jointer too...but insuring a consistant thickness is a real challange without a planer...
Go with a planer. I've been living with only a planer for a long time, doing all my jointing and flattening with hand planes (and a belt sander for table tops). It's a pain and I wish I had a jointer. But there is no way I could live without a planer for the work I do, where I am always resawing from thicker wood and then thicknessing the pieces using to planer.
Anyone who says different doesn't know what they're talking about!
Paul
At the risk of crucifixion by the power tool mob, I'm gonna suggest an alternative..
When I first started out, I was a dedicated Normite; I wanted power tools and loads of em, the bigger the better. Trouble with that was firstly, the damn things cost a fortune, secondly, they eat shop space (tool size + in / out feed etc), thirdly, you really canna use any of them without a competent dust collector which is another money pit in itself, and lastly (for this post at least) you're continually restricted to working within the limits of the capacity of the machine; neither machine can handle stock wider than its cutter head, invariably the jointer being the limiting factor.
It's been well over a year since I last used my jointer (thesedays it helps ballast my table saw), and I can see my thickness planer going the same way, leaving me with a large mobile dust extractor who's sole function would be to cool my router table. Logical..???
I'll leave it for you to decide for yourself if this is a better way or not... but my alternative is hand tools... good ones... I've learned that there's a bunch of advantages to them.
Firstly, getting the most bang for yer buck... do a cost analysis of your dream power tools, not forgetting the compulsory dust collector (I'll be fair and leave overhead air filters aside for now, although technically they're every bit as necessary).
Next.. check out prices for Lie Nielsen, Veritas or Clifton hand planes, specifically a scrub plane, jack plane, jointing plane and a smoothing plane. Then compare your 2 lists. Granted, I'm leaving out the cost of a good, solid workbench; offset that against the cost of the overhead air filter.
As I said earlier... machines limit you to work inside their maximum capacity; hand tools limit you to how far you can reach working from both sides of the table. Machine tools like these eat shop space, and remember that you'll need to allow space for the other essentials such as table saw, possibly a band saw, chop saw and / or radial arm.... if your shop is your garage, it doesn't take too many of these things to fill the space you have and leave you struggling for room to move... the equivalent hand tools will comfortably fit inside a drawer or wall cupboard when not in use, leaving you plenty space for your saws, assembly table etc...
Then there's the inherent probs that machine tools have; snipe is an ever present danger, tear out too if the grain is particularly wild or delicate. Granted tear out is possible with hand planes too.. but far easier to work around once you learn to "read" your stock, spot the danger areas, and change the direction you're working in to suit the grain.
Have I mentioned finish yet...?? The power tool hasn't been made that can even look at the finish you'll get with a well tuned smoother; any rotary cutter head leaves a finish that looks like corrugated iron, while a sander turns the surface into shredded wheat, while a well tuned hand plane can leave a glass smooth surface.
I won't contest that when you have a lot of stock to prepare, a properly set up, machine oriented workshop can get through that stock far quicker than you will with hand planes, but how often are you going to be preparing hundreds of board feet at a time??
Last point I'll venture are the health aspects.
Machine tools are a 2 pronged nightmare; noise and dust. You really need to protect yourself from the noise to escape the risk of causing permanent damage to your hearing, especially if your machines have brush motors. Dust is an ever present danger, the finer it is, the more dangerous it is... dangerous to the point of being an explosive hazard. It hangs in the air constantly unless extracted and filtered from source; it'll stick to any and every surface it comes into contact with... walls, ceilings, tools, lungs... it isn't fussy. If you don't thoroughly clean the shop on a regular basis, all it takes is one spark with this stuff in the air and your shop is history; the initial detonation will stir up all the stuff that's settled over time, the secondary detonation will resemble a bomb going off in a confined area... You can't treat this stuff lightly...
On the other hand... if like me, you need regular cardoi-vascular workouts, but going to the gym burns your shop time... there's always hand planes ;) You suddenly become environmentally friendly through not contaminating the surrounding area with excessive noise and dust... and all that exercise does wonders for your heart...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike---there is a way to joint a board wider than the designated width capacity of a jointer. You have to do some juggling to do it. First you set the fence so you only joint about 25% of the width of the board and the depth of cut to 1/4". Make a pass from each edge of the board, that will leave you with a path of rough material in the center the full length of the board. Reset the depth to 1/8", move the fence as far back as you can(in some cases the fence must be removed), now make a pass to flatten the center of the board. Once you have done this take it to the planer and feed it through with the jointed center section down riding on the bed (provided you have a top cutting head on the planer). The planer will dress the entire rough face parallel to the jointed center section on the opposite side. Flip the board over and dress the shoulders off left by the original jointing . you will have a board flat on both sides with a uniform thickness. I have done this with success on numerous occasions-----just be extremely carefull if it is neccessary to remove the fence.
"Next.. check out prices for Lie Nielsen, Veritas or Clifton hand planes, specifically a scrub plane, jack plane, jointing plane and a smoothing plane. Then compare your 2 lists. Granted, I'm leaving out the cost of a good, solid workbench"
Mike,
Given a choice of being able to use only a thickness planer or a jointer, I like to consider worst case scenarios, like building a workbench - in such a case, I can imagine working without a jointer, but not a thickness planer.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
6 months ago I would've agreed with you; the concept's nuts... right.?? All that effort, not to mention the required accuracy, you gotta have a thicknesser....
Then I tried putting the scrub plane through its paces; I didn't have a clue what I was doing to begin with, but I managed with surprising ease. With more practice it became easier, not to mention faster.
As I said in my looooong post, for volume work, the thicknesser comes into its own. However as I've no production deadlines to meet I can take my time. It's definitely a viable alternative with a surprisingly gentle learning curve.... I mean face it, if I can manage, it canna be all that hard.... right..???Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"6 months ago I would've agreed with you"
Mike,
I'm not sure I have the time or patience to mill twenty pieces of twelve-quarter maple by hand in order to glue-up a workbench top - and then do more planing after the glue has cured. Given the choice of either a jointer or a planer, I'd select the planer for this kind of work; using a series of hand planes to square rough stock and bring it to final dimensions is not too difficult, and can be quite pleasant, but with that many sticks to process, and given the value of my time, I prefer to use power tools for this kind of work when they're available.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I prefer to use power tools for this kind of work when they're available.
hmmmmmmm..... sounds like a challenge....
just the top or the entire project...?? I don't have maple available here so I'll have to think about a suitable alternative; sycamore with oak end caps and dog holes maybe.?? I'll have to wait till well after the new year.. I've a ton of other stuff to get through before then....
I suspect you're right, but still... it'd be an interesting exercise....
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 11/27/2004 4:06 pm ET by Mike
Edited 11/27/2004 4:07 pm ET by Mike
Mike-
I knew I'd find you here preaching again!!! Just can't help yourself, can you!?!?
JC
And Mike sayeth unto the assembled Normites, "Repent all ye who worship yon great muckle wood munchin brutes o things as unholy idols... go ye forth unto Lie Nielsen and seek true enlightenment... "
<shakin head t reboot...
good grief... am I really that bad......??????
still... with a proven track reckord going back to Roman days... there's gotta be something going for 'em.... right..????
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 11/26/2004 8:07 pm ET by Mike
Mike
very well crafted argument.
Ian
My reccomendation would be a planer. I build furniture and cabinetry and never use a joiner, and i purchase rough stock. I think I can straighten rough stock edges faster than multiple passes on a joiner using a table saw and a straight edge (6" x 8' piece of 1/2" or 3/4" MDF). Nail a straight edge to your rough stock with one edge of your straight edge hanging over your rough stock, this side will run against your saw fence to straighten the left side of your board. Now that you have a straight side pull your straight edge off and run the other side. If you need perfectly smooth edges with no machine marks, simply run several boards together on end through your thickness planer. You may find this to be a nice alternative to having to buy two machines.
I think you can get the gist of what posters are saying here. You really need both . The Jointer is more importaint.... but I got the planer first, and would do it again. With a planer you will still have to buy deminsioned lumber, but you can thickness it to suit you purposes. You can make a board thinner using a jointer but the two faces will not be parallel so that is useless. In fact by jointing a face you will pretty much make the board useless unless it is feed through a planer to make the other face parallel. If you are jointing the edge you can cut the othe side parallel on the TS. But then you can get a short board pretty damn straight on the table saw with no jointer.
For me the whole time I had a planer, and not a joiner, I almost never used the planer. It just sat there waiting for a jointer. Occasionally I needed to plane a 3/4 board down or wanted to speed up the sanding process by cleaning up the surface first.
Mike
I first got a planer. That allowed me to surface lumber to a specific thickness. It also limited me to how true and flat a board was when purchased. A planer will not flatten a board that is not true. I have now added a jointer and the combination of the 2 allow you to work with less than perfect lumber. You need both - but I built some pretty nice stuff before I got a jointer. I just had to shop very carefully for lumber.
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