Replies

1. 
   Knotscott | Apr 13, 2007 05:59pm | #1

   There should be nothing in that design that makes it prone to chip out. That tends to be a function of the blades, cut height, feedrate, chip removal, and the material being cut. Do you have DC on it?

1. 
   rp709 | Apr 14, 2007 05:20pm | #6

   What do you mean by DC, knotscott? I recently jointed some birch at the minimum depth of cut I could manage, with a very slow feed rate on just sharpened (professional sharpening) and still got some chipout. It seems that some wood has grain that changes such that jointing in either direction won't solve the problem. Is this a fact of life that I have to live with? I have read about a aftermarket spiral blade kit that should improve this. Anyone with this experience? Thanks, Ron

   Edited 4/14/2007 10:21 am ET by rp709

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 14, 2007 07:22pm | #7

   Hopefully, the sharpening was spot-on.  One thing that hasn't been suggested here, but is recommended when planing difficult wood, is a light spray of water.  Since jointing is just planing upsidedown, I suppose it's worth a try.  Remember the adjective "light" and I would recommend distilled water, just in case your water has some unpleasant minerals in it.

   What about other woods -- oak, fir, whatever....do they joint well?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

2. 
   colebearanimals | Apr 14, 2007 07:38pm | #8

   Hi rp709,

          Spiral cutterheads? Worth every penny. I have one on my 8" jointer. It significantly reduces or eliminates chipout, especially on highly figured woods. In fact, I plan on replacing my Delta 15" planer cutterhead with a spiral head.

                                   Paul

3. 
   Knotscott | Apr 15, 2007 02:25am | #9

   "DC" is dust collection. Is it possible that the sharpener messed up? ...maybe got the bevel wrong? For the cost of ~ $20, you might consider getting a spare set and experimenting.

4. 
   user-211435 | Apr 15, 2007 09:21pm | #10

   One thing that sometimes helps is to set your knives lower in the cutterhead.  It makes the blades a little stiffer.

   Also, when you say you cut at the minimum setting, what does that mean?  You should be able to move the infeed table up to where you can barely discern that wood is being cut at all, in fact, you should be able to adjust it to where it isn't cutting.   Almost all general cutting should be done (in my opinion) cutting 1/32" off the board.  Final face cuts do well at 1/64".  Problem grain can be cut less than that.

   You should also set your blades with a dial micrometer.  It may be that you have one blade doing all of the cutting instead of all of them.  It's possible to set the blades within 1/1000", which makes a pretty smooth cut.

   Also, slow down to the point of barely moving when jointing on problem grain. 

   Hal

   http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com

1. 
   rp709 | Apr 16, 2007 06:38am | #11

   I have been using a magnetic bar to hold the knives even with the table before tightening. Maybe one blade is higher and doing the cutting? I hadn't thought of that. How do you use a micrometer to measure the knife setting? Thanks, Ron

1. 
   THintz | Apr 16, 2007 10:50am | #12

   rp 709,

   I use the Oneway MultiGauge for setting my jointer knives. It makes it very easy and dead-on accurate. I always thought I had my jointer set up well, then got the MultiGauge and found out how nice a jointer can really work.

   See the link below for my story on jointers that also shows using the MultiGauge on a jointer.

   http://www.newwoodworker.com/basic/usejntr.htmlTom Hintz

   Because there is always more to learn!

2. 
   user-211435 | Apr 16, 2007 07:41pm | #15

   Basically the same thing can be done with a dial indicator on a magnetic base.  I guess I actually meant that when I said "micrometer," instead of dial indicator.  Sorry for the confusion.

   Hal

5. 
   wdrite | Apr 24, 2007 02:12am | #25

   I have two 6 inch jointers.  One is a conventional.  I use it for most work because it is more accurate with its longer bed.  When I run into tearout on that one, I run the last pass on my Ryobi.  It has a motor similar to a router and the much higher speed produces a very smooth, tearout free surface.  The Ryobi is a benchtop.

1. 
   rp709 | Apr 24, 2007 04:42pm | #26

   Well, I think my Jointer is set up OK. I'm going to try the spiral cutterhead. Thanks for all your advice! Ron

1. 
   KeithNewton | Apr 25, 2007 05:41pm | #27

   Most jointers are set up with a cutting angle that is more suitable for soft woods, which causes this chip-out problem. Cutting angle in knife heads is the same as hook angle in saw-blades.I am sure that most of you understand why one is better than the other for saw-blades, and the same is true for knife heads. There is an ideal CA for each species of wood. Usually the harder the wood, and more figured, the smaller angle number you would want. Since I work mainly with hardwood, and my 12" Hall & Brown jointer head has the knives set at 30º which would be fine for softwood, this it too high for most hardwoods. I sharpen with a 20º face bevel, which reduces the cutting angle to 10º. At this angle, I can face plane highly figured lumber like fiddleback maple, or block mottle cherry without any tear-out.With a 10º CA, there is no problem getting smooth cuts on highly figured wood without wetting, or doing light cuts, and it can be done on any machine. However everything comes at a price. Sharpening this way does require more power, and when planing softer woods, there may be some crushing of the fiber. Here is a link to some articles that give more information than you likely need. However the OP mentioned woods that normally machine best with a 10º cutting angle, and his knives are probably set around 25º.It is just as easy to sharpen this way as it is with only one bevel, and doesn't cost anything to do. http://www.woodweb.com/KnowledgeBase/KBSWMToolGrinding.html

   Edited 4/25/2007 11:28 am by KeithNewton

2. 
   mike4244 | Apr 13, 2007 06:06pm | #2

   I imagine you are face planing.Your cuts may be to heavy,grain direction might be wrong ,and the boards themselves may be prone to chip out.Take very light cuts and see if it corrects the problem. If the boards are not tapered or sniped at the ends your machine is probably set up correctly.You mention birch and cherry,how about other woods.If you are successful with a straight grained species,softwoood or hardwood,then I doubt your setup is wrong.On narrower pieces you may also try skewing the board across the cutterhead.I have done this on occasion with fairly good results in curly maple.

   mike

3. 
   THintz | Apr 14, 2007 09:44am | #3

   Ron,

   The grain direction thing mentioned earlier is very important. Get that wrong and no jointer is going to create a perfect surface. The problem is that it is very easy to get wrong.

   Taking very light cuts also helps a bunch. As the depth of cut increases, so does the tendency for the wood to pull apart. Keeping the feed rate slow enough to let the knives do their work is also part of the technique for smooth cuts.

   If you are new to the jointer, i have a story on the basics of that tool at the link below with photos and video that might be of some help.

   http://www.newwoodworker.com/basic/usejntr.html

   Tom Hintz

   Because there is always more to learn!

4. 
   4DThinker | Apr 14, 2007 04:20pm | #4

   It's very important to send wood across a jointer with the grain pointing "uphill" in the push direction.  In many woods the grain will reverse once or more in the length, and you've got no choice but to push the wood across that way.  I tell my students to mark the spots where the grain reverses (points downhill) and to slow way down when those marks approach the blades.  Moving slowly across the blades reduces the amount of wood each blade will chip off on a turn.  Take a smaller bite and you are less likely to tear out a chunk of wood.

1. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 16, 2007 03:53pm | #13

   With hand planes, I have dampened wood with unruly grain just before planing, and it helps. Would this work with machine planing?

5. 
   Spalted | Apr 14, 2007 04:27pm | #5

   Here in the cabinet shop we call it "the natural beauty of the wood." But we just got a new to us halsty wide belt sander :)

6. 
   RickL | Apr 16, 2007 06:59pm | #14

   One solution not mentioned is a back bevel on the knives. Also knives are typically sharpened with an angle in between hardwood and softwood. Cherry and birch are typically tough with chip out. My friend bought a spiral head Northtech planer and it does a great job with cherry. Upping the feed it will still chip out. I've always had good luck with sharp standard knives and feeding slow with curly wood. On wider jointers you can run thwe fence a bit crooked so you are getting a shear cut on the knives which can help.

7. 
   acornw | Apr 16, 2007 07:43pm | #16

   Come, come, folks. The answer is not so much blade angle, feed speed or how you hold your tongue.

   It is 100% that the jointer is not a finishing machine. The purpose of a jointer is to prepare stock by making it flat and referencing two faces to each other, so they can be planed. Prepare stock, not finish stock.

   It really is that simple.

1. 
   4DThinker | Apr 16, 2007 10:09pm | #17

   Stock that is chipped out by a jonter is not "prepared" stock.  We also joint stock edges to glue two edges together.  Chips missing make for a not-so-pretty joint.

    

1. 
   acornw | Apr 16, 2007 11:55pm | #18

   Well, we do our panel joint prep with a Diehl ripsaw, but we don't glue for width all that much. Jointers are sometimes used, sometimes just tablesawn. The better European jointers have much better table to knife arc clearances, and the support of the cut makes a positive difference. But, the Euro guys will tell you the jointer is for starting prep, not finished surface. Even the quadra-chip jointer knives are not the last word, since they like to leave little lines. True helical knives in a tight tolerance table lip jointer is probably the solution you are looking for.There is no way to prevent chipout with common tools on curly Cherry or Maple. Jointing will be like the cartoonist cutting off a too long leg of a chair.How a tool is utilized will vary greatly from individual to individual, shop to shop. http://www.acornwoodworks.com

1. 
   user-211435 | Apr 23, 2007 02:01am | #20

   I beg to differ with your opinion in your statement, "There is no way to prevent chipout with common tools on curly Cherry or Maple."

   It really is possible.  I do it, I'm sure others do as well. 

   It may be a little like steelhead fishing.  One guy can fish a hole for hours and come to the conclusion that there are no steelhead in there.  Another more skilled fisherman can come along and catch one on the first cast in the same hole.  It happens!

   Hal

   http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com

    

1. 
   jeff100 | Apr 26, 2007 09:54pm | #29

   One guy can fish a hole for hours and come to the conclusion that there are no steelhead in there.  Another more skilled fisherman can come along and catch one on the first cast in the same hole.

   So you were there that day?!!  He not only caught one, but TWO steelhead, after I fished it for an hour.  Jeeze.....

   True story.

   Jeff

2. 
   user-211435 | Apr 26, 2007 11:31pm | #31

   One day a good friend and I were fishing on the Deschutes River, and we both had a steelhead on at the same time, which is pretty rare.  Across the river, the road came close to the river bank, and a couple of guys stopped to watch with binoculars. 

   Or so I thought, until I looked over and saw that my friend's college-aged girlfriend was fishing with her clothes off about 30 feet upstream. 

   It was a good day of fishing.

   Hal

3. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 27, 2007 09:06pm | #32

   Got any video?

4. 
   user-211435 | Apr 29, 2007 07:42am | #34

   Of course I do.  I just saw it again in my mind the other day as I was passing it on to you.

   Hal

5. 
   philip | Apr 28, 2007 07:47am | #33

   I confirm that that is the correct way to fish.Philip Marcou

2. 
   user-211435 | Apr 23, 2007 01:54am | #19

   Acornw,

   How one defines the finished surface that comes from a jointer probably depends a bit on how it the machine is used and the level of quality one gets from it.  Also, different woodworkers try to achieve differing levels of finish quality, which can make a roughly jointed surface okay for some, and not okay for others.

   It is not a finished board right of the jointer, no matter what, but if well done, the board needs very little work to make it a finished board.  If a roughly jointed board is then surfaced by a thickness sander, this would not be considered a proper finish by many. 

   It is actually much more work to get out sander scratches than jointer or planer marks.

   Hal

   http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com

    

3. 
   philip | Apr 23, 2007 10:10am | #21

   Dear Chap,
   "it is 100% that the jointer is not a finishing machine. The purpose of a jointer is to prepare stock by making it flat and referencing two faces to each other, so they can be planed. Prepare stock, not finish stock."
   Assuming that you are not stirring the pot, and with due recognition of the title of the original post, that statement is not accurate.
   Even without the benefit of fancy spiral cutters etc etc, a well set up surfacer can easily produce a surface on the most difficult timbers that only requires a light sanding (for tactile purposes).
   Throw in a power feeder to maintain a slow steady feed and it is an outright winner.
   True enough, the surfacer or jointer spends much time surfacing one face plus jointing adjacent edge, for the thicknesser, but what is the use of that if it is an inferior finish?
   I think you may be losing out on the benefits of a good machine, if you really believe that a surfacer is for preparing stock only, but then again each to his own....Philip Marcou

1. 
   acornw | Apr 23, 2007 06:50pm | #22

   Gentlemen - My remarks merely reflect a viewpoint that is different from yours. The remarks are not made from casual observation. I use a joiner to quickly make stock straight and square on it's own, so it will then plane thru a planer or S4S machine and be as straight as square as off the joiner. After the planer, stock is then calibrated by a wide belt, then joints made, assembled, then wide belt again, then finish sanded. The majority of woodworkers that have spent the bulk of their waking hours in a real shop will agree that it is bad policy to regard a joiner as a finish tool.

   The joiner is just for a couple of quick passes. The stock doesn't have to be pretty, or even cleaned up 100% on the jointed faces - just clean enough to 1. be straight and 2. go thru the next machine that references from the jointed surface to create a parallel surface. Then the jointed face/edge gets planed to a semi finished surface.

   To think of the common Chinese 8" $485.00 special joiner (common in so many shops) reliably, repeatably giving clean tearout free cuts on curly Maple is a bit of a stretch. Not that, given enoygh time, expertise and patience most people could achieve it. But I like the tools to work for me, not vice versa. Or, we could advocate for a nice new Martin 16" humming its solid tune, cutting anything that comes near with nary a bit of tearout. Of course, there are hand planes in the cabinet over there, but they are so intimidating to most.

   When faced with 1200 b/f of interlocked grain Honduras Mahogany to cut up for door parts, I don't engage in foreplay with the wood. Heck, it is only so thick, so I can't make innumerable passes on the joiner, holding my tongue just right, trying for a clean finish cut. Get it to rough length, rough width, face and edge, S4S, sand, layout, mortise, tenon, cope and stick, raise panels and assemble. Then sand again. To spend half a day combining wood, machine and hand to try for tearout free cuts on a wood that is notorious for tearout? I don't think so.

   So you make a pass on the 2' long piece of Curly that is tearout free. Then you need one more pass on the other edge, and - you guessed it - chipout. Life is too short for that sort of aggravation. We could even start off here on the art vs practicality argument, and drag it onto the type of work done in a shop, the type of tools we use, and why. But if someone wants to spend all weekend trying to face curly maple with out tearout, so be it. It just ain't gonna be me. Dave S

1. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 23, 2007 08:20pm | #23

   I agree. I've never been able to make a joiner finish the face of a board. No matter how slow I feed, I still see the need for sanding or scraping. Basically I look at a joiner to flaten a board in prep for the planer. No doubt there are some who have some tricks to do a better job.

2. 
   philip | Apr 23, 2007 11:13pm | #24

   Dave, I agree- for a production or semi production scenario, especially those with wide belt sanders and the rest.
   I was looking at it from the standpoint of the hobbyist or small shop, where there is no option. After all , after the face and edge on the surfacer the next stop is the planer-which is likely to be not as sharp as the surfacer and there is no control over feed rate other than another( faster) speed in most cases. The fact is that a reasonable surfacer can produce a good surface (good enough to only require a light sanding or scrape) and the above mentioned can benefit from it.
   Remember that these shops often are not dealing with relatively friendly timbers like your Mahogany, but still tackle quite big jobs where cleaning up with handplanes may not be an attractive idea.
   Example- I had to plank some Dalbergia recently- the only way I could get a good surface was to surface at very slow feed speed, then thickness plane- which left some chip out due to crazy grain and the speed being too fast- so back to the surfacer to surface that side by very slow feed rate. Planing that by hand was not an option and I don't have any fancy sanders....Philip Marcou

2. 
   user-211435 | Apr 26, 2007 11:21pm | #30

   Philip is correct in what he says about achiving a finished surface with a jointer.

   They can be used for rough surfacing, or they can be used for finish surfacing.  If well done, only a slight bit of sanding is necessary in the end.  If done roughly, then thickness sanded, usually quite a bit more sanding is necessary in the end, to get out the wide belt sander scratches.

   Hal

8. 
   spitfire | Apr 26, 2007 05:17pm | #28

   Well I believe on another jointer related thread somwhere I raised an issue with the what I thought to be the true flatness of my fence on my 6 " Jet jointer.  The issue is the  I could not get the fence square on the infeed side of the table if the outfeed was square nor vice versa.  I assumed the fence was not flat and had a twist in it.

   I contacted Jet customer services and they were great and sent me a brand new replacement fence.   

   I put on the brand new replacement fence last night (a better finish than the first one I might add) but good grief the same situation arose.  So it must be that the in feed table is not flat or installed poperly.  I am trying to see if I can put some small   spacers somewhere to get it correct. When I take a straight edge and run it along the outfeed and infeed sides when I even the sides the cutter head and edges of the infeed and outfeed tables seem perfectly aligned. 

   Why cant I get the fence square to BOTH the infeed and outfeed surfaces????

    

   .,  The