Hey Everyone,
I’ve been jointing a bunch of rough boards lately, and am having some disturbing results.
All of these boards came from Lumber Liquidators’ “Woodworker’s Hardwood Pack,” and were properly advertised as having some “checking and splitting.” In many cases, though, especially on the long boards, there is some type of warping, usually a piece being bowed lengthwise. But most of these defects are not severe. The pack was 300 bf for $50, “mostly exotics!” I don’t know about that, although there’s clearly some nice wood in there, exotic or not.
When I’ve been working a board like this, I’ve first jointed an edge – no problem. A friend told me that it would be more efficient to the joint the concave face of the board because I’d be likely to lose less material. So that’s what I did. And in each case, I’d wind up with the “front” end of the board – the section that first hits the blades – becoming much thinner than the rest of the board.
So I tried it the other way, with the convex face against the blades. Same result.
I figure there are two possibilities, and they might not be mutually exclusive. The first is that I’m pressing too hard, or keeping pressure on the wrong part of the jointer table, on each pass. I usually keep my push blocks somewhere above the cutterhead, but have also tried keeping them on the outfeed table once I’ve passed the cutterhead with them. If I’m pressing too hard, how do I get the board across with lighter pressure and still keep the jointed edge flat against the fence? Wax the tables and fence again? Some special technique?
The second possibility is that the fact that the rough boards are not relatively flat means I have to live with a lot of waste. That would make more sense to me, though, if both ends of the board were wearing down equally – that’s not usually been the case.
I’ve only done a few long boards because I figure it’s my technique that’s the problem, and I don’t want to waste amy more material due to poor technique.
I’m using a brand new Yorkcraft YC-6J jointer, and every time I’ve checked for square between the tables and the fence, it’s been spot on. The jointer is 6″ wide with a 46″ table length.
Of course, there’s a third possibility, and that’s you get what you pay for…
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance?
Mitch
“I’m always humbled by how much I DON’T know…”
Replies
Hey Mitch,
How are you? First thing is you're right when you say you get what you pay for.It's been my experience that when a lumber dealer sells something that cheap it's because it's not worth his while to do all the work neccessary to get saleable wood.From my experience with wood like you describe,the first thing to do is crosscut it into shorter lengths.Place a straight edge along the board and find what your maximum length versus material you're willing to loose and cut there.When you get to the jointer don't push down on the board,just let the cutters do there work.Also don't apply pressure over the cutter heads.Try to apply a bit of pressure against the fence just before the cutter heads and after 8 or so inches pass ,on top of the outfeed table.When you apply pressure on the heads you're forcing the wood into an un-natural shape and it's just going to bounce back.
Just remove enough stock to get a flat surface(it does'nt have to be a perfectly clean face)then go to your planer.Place the jointed side down and clean up the other surface,then turn it over and finish the first side.If you still end up with wood that's to thin you'll probably have to start off with even shorter boards.Lumber that starts off like your's,usually(when they take the time to do it)ends up as shorts on your lumber dealers shelves.
Hope this helps,
Brent
Hi Brent,
Thanks for your reply. I'm well, the baby's got a stubborn ear infection, but other than that, we're great.
You know what? I always went for a perfectly clean face before planing, even when the face was pretty straight. I think that suggestion alone will save a lot of wood for me, not to mention time and frustration.
Crosscutting to the length of the straightest portion is a good idea, although I'be disappointed if I wound up with a lot of shorts as a result; I don't think that'll be the case though.
Hope you and the family are well, and thanks for the advice,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
mvac,
Let me suggest a couple things. It will help reduce waste if you cut your stock to rough length, say an inch over finished lenght, instead of trying to deal with the whole board.
Face jointing with the concave face down will usually be easier to do, as the stock won't be as inclined to rock as you are passing it across the bed. Twisted stock can be dealt with by addressing the diagonally opposite corners that are projecting down, one at a time. Sight along the face of the piece to see when the two ends are parallel, or use winding sticks, then joint for a flat face.
Your problem with one end of bowed stock becoming thinner may be helped by flipping the board end for end every couple passes, so opposite ends are presented to the cutterhead first. Your technique may be putting more pressure on the front end of the board than the tail, and reversing the ends will compensate.
For longer stock, (if you are comfortable doing so,) easing the board down onto the bed in the middle of its lenght, and just jointing from there to its end, alternating ends, will also work. My jointer's outfeed table is longer than the infeed, so a bowed board will be cut more on its infeed side than when the bulk is on the longer outfeed table.
If one end of the piece is more severely crooked than the other, you will get the feeling that you are taking less off that end, because taking off 1/16" from that end will show less of a flat face than the end of the board that's nearer to being straight.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
I appreciate the response. I wasn't sure about flipping a board end-for-end because I thought going against the grain direction would result in chipout or chattering or something less than smooth. But it's definitely worth a try.
And I'm very comfortable bringing a board down in the middle - I've done that a lot with my router table, so I have some sense of the kind of control and caution I need to do it safely. Of course, I'd bring it down with the convex face against the table to get rid of the hump, right?
And cutting down to finished length, or at least the length of the straight portion, would make life a lot easier.
Thanks again, and hope I can return the favor sometime,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Rough cutting to length is before jointing is a very good suggestion. It's also best to joint the face first so you have a flat face to square against when yuo edge joint.
Re:tapered boards. Check your outfeed table. It could be a little high. Place a smooth board on the outfeed table sticking out over the cutterhead. Unplug the machine and turn the cutterhead by hand. The board should move about 1/8" vhen a knife passes under it, no more. The cutting circle has to be just a hair above the outfeed table due to springback in the cut.
Also, check your knives for sharpness. Face jointing takes a lot more hold down pressure than edge jointing, and dull knives will vibrate the board a lot, reducing the depth of cut and resulting in tapered boards. Noise is your first clue here. If your jointer is uncomfortagbly noisy when face jointing, you either need more hold down pressure or you need to sharpen your knives.
Michael R
Michael,
Thanks. The jointer's less than two months old, so I doubt it's dull blades. I'll check the oufeed height, though.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Mitch,
Most experienced wood workers don't mess with their wood until they are ready to make something out of it When they have a project in mind, they rough cut the raw stock, joint it and rough plane it, let it equalize for a weeek or so, then finish dress and cut to final dimension.. If you clean it up now, chances are that it's going to move again before you use it, and you'll end up wasting more wood.
If you have a thickness planer some other considerations apply due to possible snipe, but the general principle is the same. The only wood that is generally stocked after it has been planed and dressed is construction lumber.
If you want to see what it is going to look like, hit it with a hand plane on a high spot that's going to come off anyway.
As for dull knives on a new jointer, it is a distinct possibility. Certainly stranger things have happened. Noise an vibration are your main clues there.
Good luck.
Michael R
I am a beginning woodworker but I have never had a problem with jointing the face of a bent board. (I'm Irish so luck has been on my side. I'm sure my time is coming.)
I have always cut to rough length before jointing. I also place the concave side of the board down and apply only enough pressure to move the board. I move the pressure to the outfeed table when a few inches of the board have passed over the cutters.
My question concerns the setting of the outfeed table relative to the cutter blades. I have understood from my reading that the outfeed table should be set to the same height as the blades at their highest position. Setting the outfeed table to 1/8 inch above the blade height seems to me to create a situation where the least amount that can be removed from a board would be 1/8 inch.
I have my outfeed table set at the same height as the maximum blade height. I control the amount to be removed by adjusting the infeed table.
I would appreciate comments from those who have more experience than me.
Regards to all,
Jim
Jim, the knives need to be a thousandth or two above the height of the outfeed table because the wood bounces back a little behind the knives. The knives compress the wood a little as they cut, more as they get duller, and the wood tends to spring back a bit.
The easiest way to get this result is to use a staightedge on the outfeed table as I described above, and set the table at a height where the knife picks up the straightedge and moves it about 1/8" horizontally.
A more exact but time consuming way is the second one I described where you lower the outfeed table until you get a little snipe, and then raise it until the snipe just dissappears
HTH
Michael R
Now I think I understand what you mean.
You don't mean lift the straightedge 1/8 inch but rather push the straightedge about 1/8 inch before moving below it as the knives are rotated against it.
Am I right?
Thanks,
Jim
Precisely
MR
I have similar problems. I'm not a very advanced woodworker and I haven't really figured out how to avoid the problems you mentioned. So, I'm interested in reading what others have to say about this.
I have had success with using a bandsaw to precut pieces that were particularly bad. I draw a straight line with a long straightedge and cut along the line to remove most stock. Then just a light pass or two, not necessarily enough to completely remove the saw marks, but enough to make the faces plane, then to the planer.
I agree with other respones- cutting your stock so that it is close to final size will help, to see why, try this. Draw the letter capital C. Imagine you had a 4 foot board that was this warped. Now cut the letter up into two pieces- think about how much you'd have to joint off to end up with a flat side. Now cut it into 3 and then 4 pieces. Each one foot piece will have much less bow in it, and the jointer will have a lot less to remove to end up with a flat surface- so your final jointed board will be much thicker than if you started with a longer piece of stock.
Jointing from each end will also help to prevent tapering. Very bowed boards tend to taper because there is more aggressive removal as the board initially enters the jointer. If you continue to feed the board in the same way each time, you continue to remove more from that end, resulting in a shingle. If you turn the board and feed in the opposite end (same face down), you avoid that. You may get some tear out, but you can minimize that by jointing slowly (also, don't worry so much about tear out until you are doing your final passes on the planer). Once you have an edge and a face properly jointed, you can clean up any tear out on the planer by planing end over end to final thickness.
Usually when I mill 4/4 boards, I expect to get a 3/4 final board. With heavily bowed lumber, 5/8 or 1/2 may result, but this may be acceptable for drawers or panels.
I was taught to joint an edge and a face on rough stock, then to plane four square, leaving about half of the wood in place (4/4 to 7/8, e.g.) All the wood for a project was done together and then stickered for 5-7 days depending on humidity. Then an edge and face was chalked and rejointed until all traces of chalk were removed. The boards were then planed to just short of final thickness (within ~1/32"-1/64") and stickered for a few more days, before joinery was undertaken. This leads to very stable wood- I haven't had too many checks or joint separations (except, of course to the ones I managed on my own). When the piece is ready for finishing, the wood is handplaned or card scraped- removing the last roughly 1/64". This way- it's not the only right way to do it- has worked well for me, and might be worth trying if you are having difficulties with milling on a particular project. You can always personalize it to your own needs.
Glaucon
Glaucon,
I definitely get the concept of planing shorter, and therefore straighter, pieces. That said, I want to preserve as much length as possible. So I'll probably cut the pieces at the point where they start to bow, if it's just on one end. Btw, what do you think of the idea of starting the planing mid-board when you have a prominent "belly" on it? It sounds like a good idea to me, provide appropriate safety precautions are taken.
Thanks for your advice,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I'm not keen on beginning a pass on the jointer from the mid point- I think it is an accident waiting to happen. If you have that much bow (I'd try to pick different wood, but let's say you got a pile of walnut for 95¢ a board foot...), you have a couple of options. One is to knock it down from either end with a scrub plane, working diagonally to the grain. Use a straight edge or a winding stick to monitor your progress, chalking the high profile areas. When the board is less bowed, you can switch to a jack plane or the power jointer. The second option is to joint the same face (concave down) on a power jointr, but alternate which end you feed. You will get some tear out, but if you go slowly and tune your jointer to take off 1/16 or less for each pass, it will cleanup fine on the planer.
I think folks try to take off too much at a time (on both planers and jointers). Hand planing is a good cure for that mind set... when you have a hand plane properly tuned, honed and fettled, you will take off long paper thin shavings- and the surface of the board will really come alive. It taught me to be patient using power tools, and it's a great way to work out aggression...
Glaucon,
I've actually spent a lot of time lately tuning my bench planes, and they're really sharp and effective right now. That said, I don't own a scrub plane - my choices are limited to a 4, 5, 6 or 7. Of these, which would be the next best alternative (I realize none of these has the thick plane iron characteristic of a scrub plane)? My guess would be the 6 or 7, but I'm interested in your experience.
Thanks for your advice,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I don't get the part about jointing the edge first. Without a flat surface to put against the fence, you can't get a straight, flat edge. If there is warp on the face that's against the fence, then the edge will be warped, too.
Also, when then jointing the face, you shouldn't be trying to keep the board tight against the fence. The edge may not be straight, for the above reasons. The face should be kept against the outfeed table; that's the important thing.
Actually scrub planes aren't that long- the Stanley #40 was 9 or 10 inches, I think. They tended to be wider, but the main thing is that the throat of a scrub plane is large, to avoid getting clogged with shavings when hogging off lots of stock. You could probably use your #4, but you might want to buy another iron for it and camber it- it really should look like a fingernail to work properly. Of course, if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, Lie-Nielsen has one: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=40_5 (for $145, a bargain- )
Glaucon
Wayne,
Boy do I wish I had a band saw... It's on the list...
Thanks for the suggestion.
Regards,
MitchMitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
The idea is to cut the timber to the length you require b4 you begin on the buzzer,not to cut short to make it easier to flatten.
How much twist or bow is going to govern how much you have left when surface is flat.
Tuning the jointer is a must b4 you begin,that has been covered above.
Hello, Mitch!
I first want to say that I didn't completely read through all the good advice that has already been so generously given to you. So, please forgive me if you are already aware of what I am about to say.
I am also happy to hear that you had sense enough to take a break and find a better solution to your dilemma. I hope we can all help you with this.
What I do with boards which have a concave/convex condition is this. First of all, my jointer is set to trim no more than about 1/8" for most of my work so this is no different. Any more than this is asking for trouble in my opinion.
I am assuming that you have enough board thickness which will allow you to trim both sides of the board to meet your required thickness. With that in mind, this is how I proceed.
(1). First of all, figure as closely as possible, the final length of the board that you need. Rough cut this board to length allowing sufficient excess for final trimming;
(2). Place the board on the jointer CONCAVE side down. The CENTER of the board should STRADDLE the cutter-head. Now, pass the trailing half of the board over the cutters being very careful that you do not push down any more that is necessary to just get the board past the cutter-head. The goal is to make well controlled cuts, one thin slice at a time.
I never run the front of the board into the cutters because this always results in that end of the board ending up excessively thin as you already found out. Pushing down on the board only makes it worse. Downward pressure guarantees that this will always be the case.
If my board is quite thin to begin with, I may resort to simply pushing it from the trailing end with a sacrificial board applying very, very slight pressure on the board as it passes the cutter-head.
(3). Turn the board around and repeat step (2);
(4) Continue this until you flatten the concave side to your satisfaction;
Now, having said that, let's go back to the very beginning where you made your decision on how much excess to leave on this board. I'm saying this now because it's easier to understand.
What I do to determine the excess length is to lay the concave side of the UN-CUT board down on a flat surface and try to visualize the horizontal plane which will pass just beneath the center of the board and where this plane will pass through the ends of the board. Your FINISHED board - with as much excess as you desire - should lay far enough between the end cuts so as to prevent your FINISHED board from: (a) ending up too short, or (b), having the ends end up too thin. I hope I explained this adequately. Failing this, it is quite possible that you would end up wasting both the board and your time.
So, where does that leave us? If you figured correctly, you should now have a reasonably flat board of adequate length. Now, all that is left to do is to pass it through your planer, freshly planed side down, of course.
At this point, snipe should raise a "red flag" in your mind. Because snipe could be the culprit which could make all of your hard work for naught. You do not want this to ruin your day. So, it is IMPERATIVE that you take this into consideration BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR ROUGH CUT. You must allow for this if you have snipe of sufficient depth which could render your board unacceptable for its intended purpose.
One last point. I also use white chalk to mark my board so I will be able to see quite clearly where the jointer passes are affecting my board. Good luck!
Regards,
Phillip
Edited 2/20/2005 4:02 pm ET by PhillipB
Phillip, Your technique may work for you, but it is really contrary to accepted practice. It sounds like your jointer is either out of adjustment or suffering from dull knives, too.
When face planing wood, you can hardly have too much down force short of bending the wood. The jointer isn't going to bend under hand pressure if it's any good at all, and there's a goodly amount of vibration to control even with sharp knives. Pressure should be over the infeed table to start, then moving to the outfeed table as jointing progresses.
There are times when it works to start near the middle of a board, but I can't think of any right now. Certainly it's the exception rather than the rule
I never run the front of the board into the cutters because this always results in that end of the board ending up excessively thin as you already found out. Pushing down on the board only makes it worse. Downward pressure guarantees that this will always be the case.
I presume you are talking about bowed wood rather than cupped. The best thing to do with bowed wood is to cut it as short as feasible before jointing to avoid having to remove too much material to in order to flatten it. It's a lot harder to flex short boards than it is to flex long ones, so you can use approriate pressure. You certainly don't want to use bowed wood for long pieces, anyway.
If my board is quite thin to begin with, I may resort to simply pushing it from the trailing end with a sacrificial board applying very, very slight pressure on the board as it passes the cutter-head.
That sounds like an accident waithing to happen.
At this point, snipe should raise a "red flag" in your mind
In the over 40 years that I have been using jointers, I have never been able to produce snipe on a properly set up jointer unless the wood wasn't properly supported past the tables. It happens on some thickness planers, but can generally be limited to a couple of thousandths with proper technique.
I urge you to read some books or take some classes before you get hurt. Established technique is the result of a hundred years or more of collective experience, and there are usually (not always) good reasons for things a certain way. It might be a good idea to understand and be proficient with conventional technique before going off on your own.
Good luck,
Michael R
.
Woodwiz,Thanks for your comments.First of all, I did not say that my way was the only way. Perhaps I should have checked with the the "Wood Workers Guild of Righteous Overseers" before I posted my comments. My apologiesYou're absolutely correct when you say that my method does in fact work for me because it does. And that, is what matters in my work. Having said that, what you refer to as "accepted practice" may or not work in all cases nor for everyone all the time. I do what works for me as, no doubt, others do as well, "accepted practice" or not.If you will kindly re-read my post it says (in part):" Now, all that is left to do is to pass it through your planer, freshly planed side down, of course. At this point, snipe should raise a "red flag" in your mind. "Please note the word "planer" in the beginning sentence. I did, however, err when I wrote ",,, freshly planed side down ,,,". What it should have read is "... freshly jointed side down ..". Wrong machine. My mistake. However, the sentence just prior to that refers to a planer, not a jointer, so the inference should have been clear: the flattening process was to be continued on another machine, the planer. Further, I believe the term "snipe" is commonly used when referring to planers, not jointers. At least that's what I recall from reading one of my woodworking books. What I did apparently miss, in all of my reading, was that planers and jointers had been around for a hundred or so years, I mean, how else would be have gained all of that "collective experience"?And quoting your own astute advice:
".. It might be a good idea to understand and be proficient with conventional technique before going off on your own. "I guess that makes me proficient. Thank you for pointing that out.I stand by my methods and my comments.Regards,
PhillipEdited 2/20/2005 5:25 pm ET by PhillipBEdited 2/20/2005 5:27 pm ET by PhillipB
Edited 2/20/2005 5:29 pm ET by PhillipB
I made the post because the methods that you recommend are a little risky and very inefficient. Maybe that's fine for you, but others might be misled into thinking that was a good way to do things.
Obviously I can't demonstrate over the web, but if I could show you in person I could clearly demonstrate the benefits of proper technique over your approach. I've done it both ways. I am far from being a "righteous overseer", but I've been doing this full time for a long time, and when I see advice that I know is far from optimal and potentially dangerous, I feel like somebody ought to speak up. For over 20 years, I got to take care of the guys who made mistakes, and I learned some hard lessons, along with getting "bitten" myself, once. It's funny how people resort to name calling when their arguments are weak. It might be worthwhile if you considered what I have to offer in the spirit in which it was given rather than taking umbrage.
I did misread the part about snipe, for which I beg yor indulgence.
By the way, planers and jointers have been commonly used since around the time of the Civil War. Maybe I should have said 140 years to be closer to the mark.
Michael R
Edited 2/20/2005 5:36 pm ET by Woodwiz
Definitely sounds like the height on your outfeed table is too high or not level ie. higher at the cutter end and dipping away.so as the board goes "downhill" the back end comes up off the infeed table and the board tapers.It will also get worse with each pass.Always plane concave down, taking the high spots from each end until you have a clean pass.Planing convex down it is too easy for the board to follow along the belly and not straighten at all.Good Luck!
You have been adjusting the outfeed table wrong!
Tom,
I guess the real problem is that I haven't adjusted the outfeed table period, and rather than relying on the manufacturer's assurance that "adjusting the outfeed table is rarelr required" I should have tuned the jointer the same way I tune my TS or any of my other power tools. I'll get out my straight edge, square, etc. and do the job right before proceeding.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Hi Mitch. Since you have said that you can joint an edge no problem we could assume that the machine is set up properly, unless the knives are not parallel to the table but are in position were you tend to edge joint. If you leave your fence all the way out [maximum width] when you edge joint and it is fine, then try moving your fence all the way in [minimum width] and edge joint again. If you get good results in both positions then I would have to guess that it is your technique. Try taking a good flat board and face jointing that and see how your results are. I would think that will tell you if it is your technique period or your technique with badly twisted wood. Let me know how this goes.. Peter
I have to agree with the other posters who said that your outfeed table is too high. The high outfeed table is picking up the tail end of the board as it goes over the cutterhead. Try lowering the outfeed table until some snipe appears then raise the the outfeed just a little until the snipe disappears. john
I really think we're beating him up on setup and the problem is technique. This happened in my high school shop with two students last year but not when I jointed their wood. They were applying pressure on the cutter head and infeed table too long causing the jointer to take an exaggerated cut on one end and repeating the mistake over and over.
My best advice is to reexamine your method. Do you walk the wood through, transferring pressure from infeed to outfeed? Are you relaxed using moderate pressure or white knuckled, holding on for dear life? Is your downward pressure consistent? I can't watch or show you how to do this but reread your books, and keep trying!
Try,
I think you're probably right, and I can't tell you how frustrated I am. I checked the outfeed table, and a staightedge lying on it will just graze the blade on the cutterhead. And as one or two others have mentioned, I started to keep my hands just on the outfeed table once across the cutterhead - but even with straignt boards, I'm getting convex faces as I flip the board end-for-end!??!!?
Fact is, I am white-knuckling it when I first hit and pass over the cutterhead. I'm not walking the wood through with relaxed, even pressure. But it seems if I don't exert enough force, the rubber-soled push blocks will slide across the wood instead of moving it. What would you advise your student to do?
Should I paste wax the tables, then buff them to eliminate any wax that might transfer to the wood? Should I just forget about the jointer and go to my No. 4 and No. 7? Teach, I'm discouraged, and I want to ace this course. I'm willing to do extra credit.
Let me know what you think, and thanks for your advice.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
At the risk of belaboring the point, I'll repeat the importance of having the outfeed table set exactly right. There are two ways I can think of to do this.
1: take a straightedge and put it on edge, on the outfeed table,with the end hanging over the cutterhead a couple of inches. With the machine unplugged, rotate the cutterhead. As the cutterhead turns, each knife should pick up the straightedge and move it about 1/8", no more, and not much less. Just grazing it is not enough. You may have done this, but the way your post reads it still sounds like the outfeed table is too high.
2: the other way is to lower the outfeed table until you just get a little snipe at the tail end, and then raise it 1/8 turn at a time until the snipe just goes away. Snipe at the tail end comes from the outfeed table being to low and this tecniue will positively eliminate the possibility of the table being too high.
I repeat that you cannot exert too much downward force on wood when face jointing on a jointer unless you have bowed wood and are bending it flat with your weight. A decent jointer will not flex, and you cannot compress wood appreciably with just the strength of your hands.
AS for technique, the advice you are getting above is right. Put your weight over the infeed table near the cutter for the first foot or so on longer boards, or the fiirst few inches on shorter ones, then transfer your weight gradually to the outfeed side of the cutterhead for the rest of the board. Keep your weight within a few inches of the cutterhead in either case, since that is where the action is. If you get too far from the cutterhead, the wood will vibrate more, reducing depth of cut and producing the results you complain about.
I really suspect that machine adjustment and technique are the most likely suspects, and that we haven't communicated them clearly enough, but once you are absolutely sure of those, there are a cuple of other possibilities.
Sharpness: Drag the surface of your fingernail across the edge of a knife. It should produce a tiny shaving with almost no pressure at all. You can do the same thing with the barrel of a plastic pen; the knife should catch with almost no pressure. It that happens, the knives are sharp enough.
Look at the cut surface. Any ripples shoul be barely perceptible, like the surface you get from a sharp thickness planer. Clearly perceptible ripples indicate either dull knives or not enough hold down pressure or both. Feed speed it not much of an issue as regards cut quality. Even if you have only one knife cutting in the cutterhead, you still get 25 cuts per inch at a feed rate of 20 ft per minute. The standard for commercial molders is 12 to 20 cuts per inch, and you have to work hard to see any knife marks with them. Knife marks from face jointing are caused by vibration or dull knives, not excessive feed speed.
Cut depth: Keep your cut depth between 1/32" to a maximum of 1/16" when face jointing until you are very proficient with the machine. Face jointing a 6" board requires 8 times as much down force as edge jointing the same board, and problems multiply with deeper cuts.
Table alignment: There's an outside chance that your tables are misaligned, making a V, which would cause the problem. This is unlikely on a new machine because the tables are generally machined together while they are mounted on the body. Just to make sure, raise the infeed table even with the outfeed table and check with a straightedge. The problem would have to be real obvious to produce the symptoms you describe. If they are just a few thousandths from being coplanar, don't worry about it for now.
Make sure your tables are tight, and don't move when you wiggle them. Again, highly unlikely.
There are only so many variables in jointer adjustment, and I think I have listed them all in order of likelihood. If they all check out, you WILL get a good cut.
My own jointer is a 50-year old, consumer grade long bed 6" jointer, probably no better quality than what you have. I can edge joint a couple of 5 foot boards and put them together, and from 3 feet away you can't even see a line where they meet. A dry joint looks like it is already glued. Even so, when I face joint I have to be pretty careful of my technique to get good results.
One of the above points is out of whack. The two most likely suspects are outfeed table and technique. If you check all the mechanical possibilities exactly as I have described, then the only variable left will be technique.
Now I think that horse is not only dead, but beaten to a pulp. I think I have covered all the variables, but you have to be pretty exact in going through them. If there's anything I haven't made clear, let me know, because I guarantee the answer is in what I have written. I've been through this too many times with too many machines and too many different operators, and gotten good results every time.
Good luck
Michael R
Michael,
Thanks again for the thorough run-through. I misspoke before when I said the straightedge "grazed" the blade - the steel rule did indeed move about 1/8" in either direction. So I don't think there's any question it's my technique.
Have to admit, that planer option's looking pretty good right now. But I don't much like giving up...
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Keep trying. Just positively eliminate one thing at a time, and the one thing that is left will be the problem. If you are positive the outfeed table is the right height (and it appears to be), look carefully at each of the other things I mentioned.
A thickness planer will take care of a lot of stuff, but there are things that a only jointer or a hand plane can do. You bought the thing, you might as well learn how it works. Consider the learning curve part of the acquisition cost.
Your next most likely candidates are technique and sharpness, which go together. However, you could very quickly dispense with the question of table alignment, too.
Michael R
Hey Mitch,
Sounds like your jointer is properly set up.If you're having problems with the push blocks slipping try taking a lighter cut,it should solve the problem.Remember let the machine do the work as you walk it through.
Brent
My experiance was pretty similar to yours and I have a much longer jointer. What I did eventually was to stop using a jointer to flatten boards. Instead I use the planer.
Now wait before a bunch of you get in a tizzy about how I just make thinner curved boards please listen to how I work this!
What I do is put one board on another Really flat board.; I then take very slight cuts untill it's about 1/2 way there I then flip over and then do the other half.; Last month's fine wood orking had an article about how to do it they used a sled and I don't but the process is pretty much the same.
Mitch, thanks for launching a good thought provoking discussion. I'm learning a lot as i read.
One question: You say you have a ~4' long jointer, how long are the boards? If they are sufficiently longer than the jointer than you may just be riding the bow at the far end of the outfeed table.
dave
Dave,
Most of the boards are much longer than the table, and I'v found that by using my right hand to both hold level and push the board toward the cutterhead that I'm having less of an issue. But at the end of the day, I've learned one thing for sure -warped boards are a BIG PITA.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Mitch-
Now I get it!
Remember the posts way earlier when several people said that trying to take the bow out of long boards was futile and that it was much better to rough cut boards to length before face jointing? That still applies. There are two main considerations:
If you have a board with 1/2" of bow in it, you have to tale off 1/2" off each end of the concave side to get up to the middle, leaving your ends only 1/4" thick. Then you have to plane the other side of the board down to 1/4" to get the faces parallel. If you cut the board in half, you greatly reduce the amount of material you have to remove to flatten it.
Long boards have to be well supported past the ends of the table. If you are doing long boards, make a simple auxiliary horse or able to support your work on the infeed and outfeed sides.
You are trying to learn to use your jointer by doing making one of the more challenging operations nearly impossible. Remember, don't dress your wood before you are ready to use it, and rough cut it to length wherever feasible. And don't even bother to try to use bowed or twisted wood for long parts.
Looks like we all missed the one important question until Dave thought of it, although the correct technique was pointed out a couple of times.....
Happy jointing
Michael R
Michael,
That's really it in a nutshell - if it's bowed, unbow by cutting off the bowed section. I have to tip my hat to the first responders on this thread, who recommended exactly that.
As for dressing the wood, I'm trying to build a bookcase. I have enough finishd planks for a certain size, and we need more room. So I need to get the wood from my rough stack. And, as I've been reminded several times to do, I'm stickering the dressed wood for a week or so before starting to build.
But without dressing the lumber, I can't calculate the final dimensions of the larger piece. Hence the need to joint and plane some long boards, even as I'm learning proper technique by making lots of mistakes - which is how most of us learn, right?
Of course, I knew when I purchased the 6" jointer, that I'd eventually be wishing I'd bought the 8", with it's considerably longer bed. But, my money tree seems to be in a state of hibernation, except where clothes and food for the ife and kids and paying the bills are concerned.
Such is the life of the serious amateur woodworker - no revenue to count on to justify the capital expenditures that the pros must have; a basement shop with no windows and a shop-made air filtation system.
Nonetheless, I've built some beautiful things, and have learned every step of the way, which makes it all worthwhile. I love learning new skills, and woodworking is one of those lifelong learning experiences.
My very first serious project was a desk modified from the design of a modern side table I found in one of the Taunton books on modern/contemporary furniture. It had a floating cherry top and ebonized maple base, with aprons made up of two parallel lengths of maple. I picked the project because it looked simple (read: easy) to make. I'd already decided not to ebonize the maple, since I like the maple/cherry contrast.
What I didn't count on were the 44 hidden mortise and tenon joints required to make the thing. 44, do you hear?!! I had to make a mortise routing jig and a table saw tenoning jig before I could even get started. Scrapped 5 legs before I could get the 8 I needed. But you know what, I can make a pretty good M&T joint these days.
So, I see this as much the same experience. And I'm looking forward to admiring our beautiful bookcase, as I admire my beautiful desk, in the not-too-distant future.
Thanks for ALL the great advice. I'm a better woodworker for it.
Best regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Mitch,
Your questions and your persistence have no doubt been helpful to a lot of other people who are having the same kind of problems. It's up to those of us who presume to know things to ask the right questions, because the guy who is having the problem obviously doesn't yet have the knowledge to ask them.
I'm glad that you are enjoying the process and are happy with the results you ae getting.
As for jointers, I have an old 6" jointer with a long bed. I mostly use it for edge jointing. Most of the stock that I get can go directly ino the thickness planer after rough cutting, and the few wider boards that won't, yield pretty quickly to hit-or-miss dressing with a hand plane. If I were ever going to upgrade, I'd hold out for a 12" machine at least, but that's just my personal approach.
Michael R
Michael,
Thanks for the encouragement. Now if I could only get my wife to think I love her more than woodworking, given how much time I spend in the shop.
But: You raised a point that piqued my interest because I've been thinking about it myself - "Most of the stock that I get can go directly ino the thickness planer after rough cutting..."
If I have a fairly straight board, why not take it through the planer, and if I have and issues with flatness, it would be a lot easier to smooth it out on the jointer. That sounds like what you're doing, and I just want to confirm that it's a plausible technique.
I have to admit, I enjoy flattening stuff with my hand planes, because it just plain feels good to do it, it confirms my sharpening technique is solid, and when I get those beautiful wispy ribbon curls, I feel a real sense of accomplishment. But the fact is it's a difficult thing to get a whole board straight and flat, even with a 4 and a 7, at least it is for me.
Please do let me know about planing first and jointing second (provided the rough board isn't bowed). Thanks,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I'm pretty selective about the material I buy. Wood with twist, bow, or crook will likely continue to move around for a long time, so I avoid it as much as possible, or cut it up into small, unimportant parts. I have an old Belsaw planer / molder, and I can run slightly cupped stock through it with no problem. Some of the industrial planers I have used will flatten and crack cupped stock, but most smaller planers won't. Once in a while, I'll dig out a scrub plane and some winding sticks to knock the corners off a twisted board, but not very often.
The other problem is, to me, the amount of material that you have left after you correct the defect. If you are buying 4/4 stock, you just don't have a lot of material to make corrections with if you want to end up with 25/32 or 3/4".
So for those reasons, most of what I bust up can go straight through the thicknesser without any preliminaries. The sequence of edge, face, thickness plane, rip dates back pretty far to the days when wood was thicknessed by hand. It's good to know, but can often be bypassed these days.
Cstan's recommendation works; his comments usually reflect his own experience. I've tried both ways, and my solution is to avoid severly bowed wood. When I have to, I usually run it concave side down, but it's strictly personal preference in my opinion. Whatever works best and is comfortable.
Regarding the wife, take good care of her. I lost mine too young not too long ago, and one of my biggest regrets is the things I didn't get around to doing for her, and that we didn't spend enough time together. I thought we had another 25 or 30 years, at least. Life is too *&^%$# short, and some of us are too soon old, and too late smart. (end of sermon)
HTH,
Michael R
Michael,
Sometimes we get robbed, and there's no plausible explanation for it. I'm deeply sorry for your loss. If I lost my wife, well, I'm not sure what I'd do. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife, wherever she is.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Thanks. Not looking for sympathy, just offering a word to the wise. Things can happen, and its important not to put off the important stuff.
Im not sure what I'd do.
I'm not sure what i'm doing, either!
M R
Boards bowed end-to-end should be jointed on the convex side. The jointer will take cuts in the middle at first then gradually lengthening out until it cuts the full length of the piece. The first several passes are a bit of a balancing act and you SHOULD NOT exert much downward pressure at all.
Starting with the concave size is a recipe for frustration, IMO. It is easy to press too hard if you start with the concave side down. All you will accomplish is making the board more bowed (end-to-end). The last thing you want the jointer to do is take cuts in the middle of the board on the concave side and it bloody will if you press too hard.
Also, end-to-end bow is the worst defect to deal with. As others have said, rough cut the boards to something a few inches or so over the finished dimension you need and go from there.
Boards bowed end to end are a perfect excuse to use the odd handplane you may own. Just start working the board in the middle of the convex side until you can get it to sit fairly flat on your bench, THEN take it to the jointer where your experience will be much more pleasant than if you hadn't paved the way with the plane.
Edited 2/22/2005 4:06 pm ET by cstan
Cstan,
I don't think anyone else on this thread has recommended jointing on the convex side, so you're the first. I'm not sure if I feel experienced or comfortable enough to do the "balancing act" as you mentioned.
About eight years ago, I stupidly, stupidly, stupidly decided to flick an offcut away from the TS blade as it was spinning down, instead of, God forbid, picking up the push stick I could see lying on the floor, or just waiting for the blade to stop moving (What a concept!). I got away lucky, and I know it. I took about 1/8" off the tip of my right thumb (and yes, I'm a righty), and wound up having skin taken from my wrist grafted to the top of my thumb. You'd never know it today unless I pointed it out to you. But ever since then I've been an obssessive-compulsive about shop safety, and avoiding things I don't feel comfortable with. I remember, when I went to the hand surgeon for the follow-up visit, seeing all of these pictures of hands where the person's big toe had been grafted on to their hand in place of their thumb. Still gives me chills, and makes me very thankful I got so lucky.
OK, having gotten that out of my system - and btw, I in no way meant to imply you were suggesting I do something unsafe - I just know that anything that makes me feel uncomfortable in the shop is unsafe for me. I think cutting the bow off the board is a much better alternative, unless it's just a matter of taking off some high spots with the plane.
And I couldn't agree more about the tediousness of trying to joint a bowed piece concave side down. It requires more patience, and technique, than I've got.
Thanks for the advice,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
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