I’ve got my new Grizzly 8″ jointer to play with, and am having a problem. After making all the adjustments called for in the manual, and paying very careful attention to the outfeed table height, I’m still experiencing a small amount of snipe at the end of the board — perhaps the last 1-1 1/2 inches. After pondering this for a bit, I came to the conclusion that no matter what I’m seeing with my straightedge, the outfeed table must be a tiny bit low. Before I fiddle with it though, I thought I’d ask here. Is my conclusion right? Or could this be just a jointing technique symptom? (this is my first jointer).
Thanks,
-M.
Replies
It might be the machine, but it might be technique. Be sure you're pushing down on the far end of the board when those last few inches are passing over the knives. I think the knives actually suck the tail end of the board down when it is no longer supported by the infeed table.
Mark
You can adjust and re-adjust, but a certain amount of snipe is expected from both a face jointer and a thickness planer. No-one's adjustments and technique are going to be dead perfect every pass with either. You will occasionally get a perfect pass, but not likely.
Compensate. I allow 2 extra inches length-wise to accomadate for possible snipe. Put the better end of the stock through first so if you have any flaws at the ends of it, the snipe occurs there. Once jointed, I just cut to the blue-print lenght.
Yep, you lose 2" of good stock. But, with snipe as a natural occurence; it's better than losing sleep and all your hair worrying about what is wrong with this perfectly set-up jointer. ha..ha..
Wish I had tht Griz 8" jointer. ToolDoc just got his and is crazy about it. Save those little short pieces of snipe. They come in handy for a "snipe hunt". < G >
Have fun...
sarge..jt
UhOh, how do I say this? "Sarge, I must respectfully disagree...." My experience has been that snipe can certainly be avoided while jointing pieces: correct tune-up, well-practiced technique, etc.
The planer is much more difficult to master vis a vis snipe, yes. I rarely get snipe on short boards these days, but lacking extended infeed and outfeed tables, it is fairly likely with longer boards.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Looks like I may need a little help with my jointer. I have only used one about a year. Before that everything was hand-planed. From the sounds of things, I'm mis-directing my attention in the wrong place.
I basically run stock through it from 6' to 8'. What I though I noticed when I first began using it was that if I kept down-ward pressure on the last couple of inches with the push-stick that the trailing inch or so would dip lower into the blade and I would get snipe. I learned to decrease the pressure when I got there and shift almost all down-ward pressure to the out-feed side. This eliminated the snipe except for a rare occassion that I was not giving it total concentration. For that reason, I always use about 2" longer stock than I actually need just in case. I stated this in the second post I made.
If technique doesn't matter, then I obviously have not properly dailed the tables in correctly. Is it correct to assume that all I have to do is raise the out-feed table slightly and all snipe will dis-appear? The out-feed table is .001 above the cutter-head. The .001 was attained with a feeler gauge after making nultiple passes to see where the lest snipe occured.
It is rare for me to get any snipe, but I will occasionally if I don't totally concentrate. At least I thought that was why. I am looking for that perfect pass without snipe 100% of the time. How do I get it? In the meantime, I will go raise the out-feed in increments to see if this is the answer.. Plenty of scrap stock and plenty of patience.
Thanks to anyone that can help...
sarge..jt
Sarge, trust me, technique matters. The fact that snipe is now "rare" for you certainly verifies this fact. If the problem was in your set-up, you'd be getting snipe on a regular basis! You are correct in focusing on concentration as a culprit of the occasional mis-joint -- it doesn't take much to press that trailing end down and make it a tad thinner than the rest of the board.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
I just finished running 60 passes with the jointer. I left the out-feed at .001 as I originally had set it after testing a year ago. The first 50 passes were perfect. I raised the out-feed for a pass each at .002, .003, and etc. up to .006. Got chatter or snipe on all 5 of those passes. Snipe or chatter increased as I went up.
Back to .001. I intentionally kept excessive down-ward pressure on the trailing end on the in-feed side for 2 passes. Snipe.. I used a bowed piece of stock for the next pass and intentionally put the cupped side up. Chatter and snipe. I used a board with a twist for the next pass and feed it the wrong way. Snipe and chatter. On the last pass I removed the extention wings an relied on my 53 inch table so I did not have additional support. I varied the pressure on the in-feed and out-feed side to see what would happen. All stock was 7' long. I can't describe what that last piece of stock looked like. I did keep enough pressure to keep it from kicking, but I almost abandoned ship twice. Scary..
My conclusion is as follows. I originally stated is that if the jointer is properly aligned an if that fluid shift of pressure is maintained as Dan so eloquently stated.. If you have read the stock properly before you hit that cutter-head.. You will most likely get a perfect pass.
But, in the mean-time I think I will stick to cutting my stock 2 inches longer just in case I run into that moment when I ain't perfect. I hate to lose a whole length of expensive stock cause I ain't perfect and I had it planned to be. The other day a squirrel tripped a electrical transformer at the top of my drive-way. If I had been jointing and near the end of the stock, I gaurantee I would have gotten snipe when the exploding tranformer sounded off.
Off in search of perfection.. I need a drink. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
SARGE: I guess Jamie is right again..drat..lol.. Hey just keep your pressure the same & Don't be foolin with outfeed & in feed tables,when you have it set just right leave it alone..trust me on this.<G>..When I bought the new 8" Grizz I fiddled til it ran nice & smooth & guess what its going to stay like that..
ok now stepin down off milk crate.. ToolDoc
oh by the way got a new toy this weekend=> a Allis Chalmers HD 12 crawler loader to play around in the shale bank with..
Doc
An we used to be content just playing in mudholes with our hands. ha..ha..
Too much over-time... too much over-time < G >
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
SARGE: Playing in mud holes with our hands, naw not me I was always with my Dad while he was using a old Case backhoe,other kids had Tonka toys,I had the real macoy.guess thats why there's still a fleet of em between me & the rest of the family we got quite a few pcs of equipment..now I just have to tell the wifey,but Hun its just another "TOOL"..LOL..
ToolDoc
Thanks for conducting an in-depth, stock-sacrificing, heart-challenging study on this, Sarge! I rest my case: while Mark's problem may be caused by a mal-adjusted outfeed table, it's just as likely, if not more likely, that it's caused by technique shortcomings.
No chastisement from me for cutting the stuff extra-long -- I do the same! After all, that stuff doesn't grow on trees! Oh...yes it does...just not enough of them, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I always say, "think like the wood".
The purpose of the infeed table is to present the board to the cutter head to remove just the right amount of wood. The outfeed table picks up the newly cut surface and maintains the exact relationship between the surface of the wood coming into the cutter and the new surface of the wood going away.
It's a matter of both technique and machine adjustment. Both have to be right. After a while, the technique becomes automatic.
I have to say I hate kidney guards. There should be no way that a rapidly disappearing piece of wood can cause your hands to get anywhere near the cutter. A bridge guard does that better than a rotating guard anyday.
Now, I just wish snipe was as easily fixed on a cheap planer!
> Now, I just wish snipe was as easily fixed on a cheap planer! <
I meant, of course, to write "thicknessor"!
I have a bottom-of-the-market Ryobi (I know, lay off - I'm a cheapskate, and a weekend recreational woodworker who can't justify the sort of gear I used to have when I did this for a living. Sigh) and as stock exits the first (infeed) roller it rises into the blades and I get a snipe. I know what's causing it, I just can't be bothered messing around fixing it. I'm not that sure it can be fixed.
Edited 6/24/2003 1:15:24 AM ET by kiwimac2
OK - off topic, but a pro WW explained to me that if you apply upward force on the stock as it's entering the thicknesser and do the same as it's exiting the machine, you'll reduce and many times eliminate the snipe that's enduced by the varying pressure of the feed rollers.
This seems to work on my little cheapie DeWalt.
I also made a heavy sled with a gloss finish plam surface that bridges about three feet through the machine.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Yes, should be a different/new string, and I'll bet it's been done to death elsewhere in the past.
I've also put a coated MDF bottom table through my Ryobi. It helps, and probably will be adjustable with shims when I can be bothered.
There's a very good past FWW article on that subject.
Bingo. The outfeed table needs to be exactly the same height as the blade, or within a couple thousandths. Once i got my jointer set properly, I had no problem with snipe provided I don't push on the tail end of the stock as it leaves the infeed table. I have a delta 6'' model and it works fine.
"same height as the blade, or within a couple thousandths. " There was a discussion awhile back wherein Richard J. ("Sgian") was explaining how different woods react differently to being jointed, and how he varies the knife-height accordingly [e.g., a thousandth or two (or more?) higher than the outfeed table for some woods]. Wonder if I'll ever be that discriminating!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The method I use is not scientific. I take a framing square and place it on the outfeed table. Then I adjust the table so that the knife edge just barely touches it. I check this across the width o fthe table. I did this with the knives that the jointer came with from the factory.
I've had the worst luck with squares -- have 3 of them, one's a framing square, and none of them is square or has a truly straight edge. I know how to square them up, but having those little deviations from straight makes them less than totally useful.
The straightest thing in my shop is my planer blades, so I use one of them and a magnet to check the jointer blades. Just tuned it up last week and it's working like a champ!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Your message got me to thinking and I thought of another tool I had used for the same thing. I have a 4' level that is made of aluminum. I checked it for straightness using my tablesaw table. It is good and straight. it seems that anything could be used as long as it is long enough and straight.
Yep! And flat too, since a .02 divot could throw off your knives.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Mark
Sorry, forgot to mention that Jamie's idea about technique is correct if the machine is aligned properly. The snipe occurs cause you are still exerting down-ward pressure on the in-feed end of the stock at the end. When that last 1" or so hits the blade a simultaneous shift of down-ward pressure has to be transferred to the out-feed side of the stock so the trailing end is not lowered into the blade at a depth greater than what came before it.
Be aware of it and you will get the feel after awhile. But the slightest mistake in that transfer will cause snipe. Cut it two inches longer. If you make that mistake even after you get the hang, it's better to end up with 2" waste than ruin the whole piece of stock with that snipe in the part that your going to use in the project.
Of course this is just my opinion, you're buying the wood. <G>
sarge..jt
Raise the outfeed table a few thousandths. This has nothing to do with technique.
I agree with Rick. For setup use the manual. Then when the results tell you some thing listen to them. I listen to the radio show Click and clack the tappet brothers and they asked a caller if he had followed the manual on this repair. He said, "yes I have". So they said, "then throw the manual away".
Agreed. If there is snipe, the bed is low.
Mark, the snipe could easily be due to technique, and rather than go to changing your carefully tuned tables right off the bat, I'd suggest you run a few scrap pieces through practicing technique first. Then, if the snipe persists change the set-up a tad as suggested.
As Jamie mentioned, your main pressure should be on the outfeed side of the board. That part of the table is your reference point. If you're pushing the piece through at the end with greater pressure on the infeed end, you will get snipe. If it seems difficult without this infeed-side pressure, wax your table so that the wood slides more easily.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Mark,
If your jointer is accurately set up, then there should not be any snipe on the tail end of the board. The first thing to do is to check the wood for cup, twist, and bow by laying the piece on a perfectly flat surface (bench top, table saw top, etc...). (Even if you've bought S4S planks, they are rarely uniformly flat along the entire face and edge.) As an example, if there is cup or bow, the concave side of the board should be face down on the jointer's infeed table. Place your push blocks (never face joint without them!) on the wood with your left hand approx. 8" - 10" back from the front end of the board, and your right hand 10" - 12" behind the left. With even and smooth downward/forward pressure, begin feeding the stock over the cutters. As your right hand has passed over the cutters onto the outfeed table, lift your left hand while continuing to apply full downward and forward pressure with your right hand. There should be no pressure being applied to the infeed side of the table at this point. As soon as your right hand is 8" - 10" inches from the blades, the left hand takes its place (just after the cutters on outfeed side). You are basically walking hand over hand withing a 10"+ area just after the blades. The key is to apply even and smooth pressure onto the outfeed table only after the initial 10" have passed over from the infeed table. (Note: if too little downward pressure is applied anywhere along the cut, you will most likely feel the blades chatter under the board.) With practice, you will develop a feel for the correct pressure and the fluidity of movement.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Edited 6/22/2003 10:10:27 PM ET by Jackie Chan
Interesting, Dan, "Place your push blocks (never face joint without them!)" Push blocks have never been a part of my repertoire, except for feeding very short stock. I guess it comes from being trained on machines with a different configuration.
Until I moved to the US, I'd never seen a surface planer (jointer) with a rotating kidney guard. The ones I used prior to that all had adjustable bridge guards which forced you to lift each hand off as they passed from the infeed side to the outfeed side. Oddly enough, I still use the same routine on the machines with kidney guards even though there is no actual barrier. Funny how old habits are retained, ha, ha. Slainte. Website
Snipe at the end of your cut is a textbook case of the outfeed table being too low. If you raise the outfeed table too much you will find that the jointer will not be cutting at the end of the pass resulting in a board that is tapered smaller in the beginning of the pass. Then simply drop the outfeed table down where you get snipe and adjust it up until the snipe is gone.
Here's a very simple way to set the outfeed table, which is the most likely cause of your problem.
Deliberately set the outfeed table lower than the infeed table by a 32nd of an inch. Move the fence to the back edge of the table and joint the edge of a piece of "one by" stock approximately two feet long. After taking the cut, you should have a prominent snipe at the end of the board. Tweak the outfeed table up a little bit and take another test cut, the snipe should be shallower. Keep raising the outfeed table and taking test cuts, stop when the snipe just disappears. It doesn't matter what the feeler gauges and the dial indicators tell you, the final set up always needs to be done with test cuts.
As a final test, after running the above procedure, take another pass with the fence close to the front of the tables, if you get snipe at one fence position but not the other, then you've got a misalignment problem with the blades or the tables that will need to be corrected.
John W.
Edited 6/23/2003 5:28:04 PM ET by JohnW
Wow -- quite a response! Thanks to everybody. You know, it seems to me that whenever there's some diversity of opinion on a question, I learn much more than when just one or two people just say "Yes, that's right" or the like.
In this case, I *did* have my outfeed set a few thousands too low, regardless of what my straight-edge and old eyes where showing me. I raised it just a tiny bit and am now getting beautiful, snipe-free results.
I just used my new jointer to taper some cherry table legs for a project I'm working on -- amazing results. I've always been a little nervous using a tapering jig on my TS -- it goes fast, but keeping the stock under control always felt like a juggling act. Using the jointer, I followed the technique from one of my FWW books of clamping a stop on the infeed table, setting the infeed to 1/8" of cut, then lowering the stock onto the cutterhead and pushing it through with a push block. By keeping pressure on the *infeed* side of the table, you get a wonderfully predictable (and repeatable) taper on each pass. Most important to me -- it just feels safer to me than using the TS.
I'm very happy with my newest toy!
-M.
Mark, thanks for letting us know the end of the story. Sounds like you're having a great time! Interesting to know that you like tapering on the jointer better than the TS. I've been interested in trying that myself, but no plans for tapered legs at the moment.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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