Hello,
I am going crazy. I have a Delta 37-195 6″ Industrial jointer. No matter how much I have fiddled with it, I still get a belly in my boards when I edge joint anything longer than the table length of 46″.
The difference is about 3-4 thou, but for edge gluing they have to be perfect!
I seem to get better joints on shorter boards.
Any words of wisdom before I take up kite making?
Replies
Could be technique or outfeed table is a couple of thousandths above the cutting circle which will produce that belly. Dropping the outfeed table until snipe and slowly raising it back up will correct for that. You might have to try it several times as it's easy to go a few thousandths too far. That would be my guess as what the problem is. If the boards are trailing off cutting nothing at the end of the board this would be a good indication of the problem. This also happens as the knives dull.
3 or 4 thousandths is minor in woodworking.
Worst case scenario is table are off and a machined straight edge and feeler gauges are rquired. The tables on that machine can be adjusted. I've done it plus I've been professionally working on machines for many years.
Edited 5/17/2007 9:34 am ET by RickL
Edited 5/17/2007 10:31 am ET by RickL
Wow!! You guys rock!!
I never thought I 'd get such a bevy of replies. Or is it a plethora?
I have never heard of setting the out feed table a couple thou lower than the blades. I did just install the dispozablade jig, and had to fuss with the height adjustments on all three blade holders. I set the knives so they just catch on a steel ruler sitting on the outfeed table. It's mostly my technique, I think. I read one of Gary Rogowski's old articles about jointing long boards on a short planer. " Go light to start, a little harder in the middle, then light on the end. He advocates a slight reverse belly, or concave fit, for similar reasons that Forestgirl quoted from Tage Frid.
I will try again. What I really need is an 8" jointer!!!!
Thanks to all!
Congrats on getting things working right -- I know well the frustration of having jointer problems. I must, however, decline credit for the Tage Frid reference -- that weren't me.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
kowalma said:
"Wow!! You guys rock!!
I never thought I 'd get such a bevy of replies. Or is it a plethora?"You have it correct, a group of replies is a bevy. If it were a group of opinions, it would be termed a plethora.Good luck with the jointer!Jim
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
I have set jointer blades and adjusted the jointer outfeed table with a dial indicator mounted on a magnetic base. I can't remember the name of the tool, but I have had excellent results setting the knives 2 to 3 thousands above the outfeed table. If someone moves the outfeed table it is easy to adjust accurately. This tool also allows the indicator to be turned 180 to measure accuracy of planer tables etc.
Kites are no fun! ;-) I had a similar problem a week or so ago. I re-tweaked the outfeed table, instructions as outlined by Rick. In addition, I reviewed how I was feeding the boards and found some sloppiness which could have caused the problem. Watch yourself, be sure you're not putting pressure in odd places because of the long length of the boards.
Can you explain exactly how you set up the jointer and exactly how you feed the wood across it. Where do you put your hands and when do you change them. Without the proper set up and feeding technique, you won't have much success. Badly bowed material that is longer than your jointer can also cause problems.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
RickL & Forestgirl are most likely correct. The outfeed table must be a few thou below the peak of the knife circle if you want straight & flat. By the way, Tage Frid said that edge-joined boards should be a smidgeon low in the center for the most reliable joint. The logic is that when your glue joint leaves the shop & takes up residence in a less humid environment, the ends will lose moisture first & the most. I haven't experienced the phenom yet, but who am I to argue with Tage Frid?
Cadiddlehopper
"The outfeed table must be a few thou below the peak of the knife circle if you want straight & flat."
That isn't at all what I said but it has it's merits. Ideally it has to be inline with the cutting circle but having the outfeed table a few thousandths lower is fine as it doesn't take long to dull the sharp edge of the knife. The problem is when the cutting circle is lower than the outfeed table. The board tends to ride up on the outfeed table and by the time you get to the end of the board the cutter isn't even touching the wood and you have the belly on the board. People get confused about this as they figure if the outfeed table was higher than the cutter then the board will stop dead when it hits the table. This will only happen if the outfeed table is more than a few thousndths higher than the cutting circle. Having the outfeed table a few thousandths below the cutting circle just ensures you have more time before you need to change the blades
Thanks, Rick - I don't think I said that either (that "few thousandths below the knife" thing). What I especially liked about your previous post, and will emphasize here so the OP doesn't get lost in all the chatter, is the technique of (a) lowering the outfeed table to the point of getting noticeable snipe at the trailing end of a good test board and then (b) raising it gradually, ever so gradually, until the snipe goes away.
I first read about that in John White's Care and Repair of Shop Machines and it saved my bacon the other night, keeping me from getting sidelined with straightedges and dial indicators and such, just a simple cutting procedure to get things right.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I am not at all sure what the "cutting circle" is & I doubt that a definition is even needed. The sharp edges of the knives is something we can all see and locate. Furthermore, a jointer makes a cut which is a small trough. There is a peak between each trough. It is those peaks which ride on the outfeed table, not the bottom of the trough. Therefore, the outfeed table must be slightly below the maximum height of the knife cutting edge. Jointer manufacturers formerly explained this fact in their operators' manuals. I once owned a tool for setting the knives. It was recommended to set them .003 - .004 proud of the outfeed table.
Cadiddlehopper
I like your explanation. It was a while before I realized the need for lowering the outfeed table.
Rogowski's suggestion is a good one, too, but it doesn't work unless blades are set correctly. I hadn't realized it either, but Rogowski's technique is exactly the way I do my planing and jointing.
I have an 8-incher, but it is honestly overkill. Seldom do I need the extra length. Actually, I would prefer a 12-incher with a shorter bed. I once had an Inca (very short) for which I added a support beyond the outfeed table. Support wasn't needed for infeed where I could support the work by hand. It worked well.
Cadiddlehopper
Well, I have an 8 X 83 inch PM. It may be overkill but it is so much better than the 6 X 36 inch Craftsman that I don't ever want to go back. Actually the Craftsman only had about 8 inch length on the outfeed before it took a dip. It might could have been better adjusted but all I could do was make rocking chair runners. I just traded it for an old RA saw a couple days ago.
Edited 5/19/2007 7:32 pm ET by tinkerer2
Pity the other guy, but I think we can comiserate.
There is no substitute for quality of manufacture. I purchased two Craftsman jointers years ago and years apart. I returned them both because of warped outfeed tables. Mine were convex. The 220-mm Inca replaced the second one. With it, I built a 5-foot workbench top which I could not do with the Craftsman. That backward fence was not a good feature either. I once owned a Montgomery-Ward 6-inch jointer which looked exactly like a Delta. Though it was short, I still straightened some very long boards using external support. I like my 8-incher also, but I realize that it is not really necessary. I really would like more width since most things I do are not all that long. Having to rip a 12-inch rough board so I can plane it sort of goes against my grain. I know! Time to get out the hand planes!
BTW, I used a Delta benchtop jointer for 10 years. Talk about short! But I got good results. At its high speed it gives a great finish also. Then there was the Horrible Freight 7-inch jointer: everything was flat enough, but knife adjustment left a lot to be desired.
Cadiddlehopper
Those peaks and valleys or scallops as they often referred to have nothing to do with the knives being set 3 or 4 thousandths higher than the table. The peaks and valleys are determined by the cutter speed and feed speed of the wood and have nothing to do with the height of the knives in relation to the outfeed table. You can prove this by dropping your outfeed table down 1/32". You will have the same depth of "valleys" but you will have 1/32" of snipe. The 3 or 4 thousandths extra depth is too make sure they don't set it too close so they don't get the belly from having the outfeed table a few thousandths to high.
I use dial indicators to set knives and have been repairing and tuning planers, jointers, moulders, etc, professionally for 25 years. I've never seen a real thorough jointer manual from any manufacturer.
I'll stand by what I said based on elementary geometry. The depth of each scallop relates directly to the height of the knives. Feed/speed effects the geometry of the scallops also. A very slow feed rate could possibly reduce their depth. But, as long as there are scallops, there is depth.
When I bought my first jointer over 40 years ago, it came with an excellent manual. So did the adjustment gage. I haven't really needed to refer to manuals since, so I can't say how thorough my current one is. Perhaps the quality of manuals became degraded in those intervening 15 years.
Cadiddlehopper
If you are saying that having the knife the 3 or 4 thousandths higher than the outfeed table determines the scallop depth it would be incorrect. You can verify this by dropping your outfeed table to increase the knife projection in relation to the table and your scallops remain the same. Your snipe increases.
Hold it guys, You are both right, just on a different page. See if I can say it so both of you agree?
The size of the scallop is determined by the speed of the cutting knives and travel of the workpiece. The outfeed table must be set a little lower than the height of the knives at their highest to match the lower part of the scallop as seen as the workpiece is being fed through the table. Had the workpiece been pushed through so slowly that there was no scallop (impractical) the outfeed table would be set to the height of the knife at its highest.
Both of you guys have been a lot of help to me and I can't stand any disagreement here. Ha Ha
Edited 5/21/2007 11:01 pm ET by tinkerer2
I can't understand the disagreement either. Must be a semantic thing. I set my blades by nipping and moving a straight edge about 1/8th inch which puts the outfeed table very slightly lower than the cutter at its peak. It is also seldom that I can cause my jointer to snipe, even if I try. The amount of cutter to table offset may be a matter of personal preference also. It may depend on how much pressure is applied and preferred feed rate, but there must be a small amount or your faces and edges go convex. The proof of proper setting is a flat board or light tight joint.
Cadiddlehopper
I agree with almost all of your statement. But this statement is totally off. "It is also seldom that I can cause my jointer to snipe, even if I try."
You don't need to try. All you need to do is forget to tighten the adjustment lock when you get the height just right. Yes - I know, I know. When I got my new eight inch PM, I fiddled till it was working almost perfect, ran test workpiece and got about three eights inch snipe. Consternation! It didn't take too long to figure out the trouble though.
There is an amazing amount of pointless arguing going on about this. It is totally irrelevant whether the outfeed table is a few thou higher, or lower, or perfectly at the blade height.
You just set the height at the point where you get a straight edge on the board, who cares what the height is? This is woodworking, what counts is the board.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Interesting how this thread caught the eye of the shop manager.
On the one hand, I agree with you sir; what matters is the board. On the other, though, I find it extremely helpful to hear what others have been through. And, while I might not worry about my jointer being out by a few thou, it is helpful to know all the details. I did find Gary Rogowski's article about technique very helpful. Further, even if my machine is accurate to 1 thou, if my technique is wrong, I will continue to get boards with a belly.
I was under the impression that this forum was for open discussion. Your remarks seem to indicate otherwise, and that is unfortunate.
Perhaps you meant well, or were kidding. Or maybe you are just a gruff person.
Thank you, though, for putting things into perspective.
Edited 5/22/2007 2:47 pm ET by kowalma
Even if I was being gruff, I don't see why my posting here means that the site isn't an open discussion. I didn't remove anyones comments or suggest that they shouldn't give their opinion. For awhile I didn't identify myself as the FWW shop manager, to avoid being misunderstood, but too many people eventually figured out who I was.
The best way to set up almost any woodworking machine is to get it close and then do the fine tuning by actually cutting wood. No other technique works nearly as well and that was the point I was making.
John W.
Dear John,
My wife has a great expression for people who, uh, express themselves in a less than becoming fashion. She calls it "Showing your a**".
I do appreciate your candor. And perhaps it's ok to berate professional woodworkers, we've all been there. I'm sure also that your knowledge of machinery and woodwork is impressive, otherwise you wouldn't have that position.
My final point is that this kind of reply would certainly scare off any newbies or lurkers who might be afraid to ask questions for fear that someone with vast experience would berate or belittle their lack of knowledge.
Unfortunately, as much as I enjoy the articles, FWW does nothing to dispel the commonly held belief of being a little "holier than thou".
One more point. Obviously this was a hot topic. Machinery set-up is the bane of all woodworkers. Perhaps we need a new series in the pages of FWW that follows your no-nonsense approach. Seriously, you made a very good point :
It's the results that count, not the method.
And John, don't be shy in the future.
MK
from kowalma: "Machinery set-up is the bane of all woodworkers. Perhaps we need a new series in the pages of FWW that follows your no-nonsense approach. Seriously, you made a very good point"Forgetting all the other stuff that led to this, I think that is a hell of a fine idea. Definitely should be passed on to the editors. Your common sense approach would make a fine column.Cheers,Peter
Here's another option: as noted previously the discrepancy of 3 or 4 thou is neither here not there in woodworking terms- you can squeeze the wood by at least this amount just by varying pressure and location of sash clamps. Since the op says he consistently gets this "error" I would say leave the out table setting where it is, especially if there is no snipe. I think it quite likely that he can eliminate this amount just by examining his method of passing the boards over the cutters- he may be concentrating more down pressure at the beginning and end of the cut, and not enough in the middle.
Although that discrepancy is a laughable amount, the fact remains that the board edge is convex rather than slightly concave-(the preferred condition for good edge gluing).
I would just correct the condition by hand plane until I "felt" like sorting that turkey out.....Philip Marcou
"...newbies or lurkers who might be afraid to ask questions for fear that someone with vast experience would berate or belittle their lack of knowledge." I've seen John go far out of his way many times to help "newbies" and others who're just plained stumped over something simple. This thread is more an example of experienced and knowledgeable (to one extent or other) woodworkers arguing ad nauseum about something that's just fluff in the final analysis, that analysis being the actual cutting of the wood.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I stand corrected, Forestgirl. Have you had problems jointing long boards?
What about having a slight hollow in the joint?
I try to avoid jointing long boards when possible, for sure, as they are a challenge, as much because of strength problems in my hands as anything. The longest board I've needed to joint has been around 36" and with some trial and error, it went fine.
The concave-middle problem raised its ugly head just 2 weeks ago. I think I mentioned it in an earlier post? Not sure whether it was caused by a slipped adjustment in the jointer, feed technique, or both. Whatever, it disappeared after I readjusted the outfeed table using the aforementioned lower-to-snipe, raise-to-straight technique. Then a little more care with feeding, and the boards were straight again. Not to say that the dial indicator, straightedge, feeler gauges aren't necessary at times.
Funny, all this hoo-ha about a thou here, 2 thou there. One post that comes to mind is Richard Jones' statement that the exact setting is not carved in stone -- depends on the wood (species). Wow, there we go again, talking about wood. LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
36076.33 in reply to 36076.31 Forestgirl,
We all know the problems with jointer tables.So how about some "out of the box" thinking?Do you know about the Hawk "Jointability"? You can joint long boards with a router and the Hawk Jointability. You can see this at Hawk at:
http://www.rbiwoodtools.com/abouthawk.htmlIf you'd like an outside review of this device, there a number of them on the web. You can try
http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/jointabillit.htmIt is an interesting alternative for edge jointing long boards.I sincerely hope that my "ray of sunshine" does not disturb this really great argument about jointer tables. That stuff really is fun. I thought, however, that some folks might like to continue the argument, but also get some work done.
Call Hawk.Hope this helps.
Sorry about your jointing problems. I have faced them too. Very frustrating.
Mel
PS - you may notice a message that got deleted. I posted a message to you and then realized that I had put the wrong website in it, so I deleted it, and then posted this message.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I've got nothing negative to say about the Hawk tool (love the name too, LOL - Jointability) but I fail to see how it's going to help us with face jointing. Well, then there's the cost -- more than I paid for my Jet jointer, but then I got a good deal on that one!
Bring your Ray of Sunshine any time, 9619. As a Great Northwest inhabitant, I value all rays greatly!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's a question.A common criticism that reviews/woodworkers make of powered jointers is that they consider the tables to be too short, limiting the ability of the jointer to flatten long boards.If this is the case, how is it that no one complains about the ability of hand planes to flatten stock? Even a #7 or #8 plane has a "table" that is shorter than the smallest bench jointer that I know of.
The problem with a jointer with short tables is that the part of the board hanging off the end of the table levers the board upward making it hard to control. In zero gravity, a short jointer would work well.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
The "problem" with a short jointer is that it will tend to follow the surface of a curve rather than straightening it out. It's the same as if one was to joint using a #1 smoother rather than a #9. The board can be straightened with anything that will cut wood, but it's a lot easier with some tools than others.
John, Are you saying that if I actually keep my New Year's resolution to work out more (I know, it's already May), so that I have enough strength to keep the board on the jointer table, table length doesn't matter?What a great line: "Real men don't need extra long jointer beds."Wilbur
Being able to apply additional downward pressure helps, but at some point the stress on the board and the jointer causes both the wood and the beds to flex making accurate work impossible.
John W.
I agree with John ww about the tables flexing. Which is why i never bothered with table extenisions. IMO the best is a longer bed designed for it.,
I have a Pm mod 60( 8") and i use dial ind ,just a lot easier imo. For thoses that have never owned a sears jointer.I had a sears 6"that was apain with its non adj out feed table. They had this 4 point adj system to make the infeed table parallel with the out feed table . According to manual you were susposed to hold a carpenters square on the out feed table and extend it over the infeed table and look for daylightand then use a feeler gage.The worst part was that when you tightened the jam nuts on the adj screws the table would move .010-.020 as expected .At that point i decided that a ind attached to a piece of 1" sq . aluminium square( thats what i had laying around)attached the other end to the fence,(with the fence laying face down on the out feed table) So i could slide the ind. to the four points on the infeed table and control amount of movement with the ind..
The other problem with the sears was that the blades had to be adj at exact top dead center.The least they should have done is give you an indexing pin so that top center can always be set and then index the cutter head. This could have been easily built into the pulley ,just like their lathes., they only needed three holes.This all worked good if the tables wen't warped ,they never aged their cast iron.Don't mean to be so hard on sears, so sears owners , please don't take the above personel.I had mine for 20 yrs and i was able to make it work.
Anyway enough on the sears rant.glad its gone-gone-gone. Chris
I can see your point about table extensions flexing, but if I were to build jointer bed extensions like hammer1's, I'd be supporting them from underneath as well. That should take care of the table extension flexing problem.
Well,maybe you could give us an examole of how this extenision could be supported and still alow up and down movement of the tables.The only possible way that i can think of is to prepare a gusset shaped piece of plywood attached to each side of the tableand projected out then of course add a top.The difficult part here is bolting to a rough casting.,not cool. This could be over come in a numer of ways though.
Thinking about this,i guess you would have nothing to lose because if it sags then it could be viewed as a roller support that was set low.I have my doubts about relying on it to join longer stock .But asHammer1 said it would certainly help from a safety aspect and help the back. Chris
What I would do is build a set of drop down adjustable legs onto the extension. If you are adjusting the outfeed table height, raise the legs on the extension, adjust the height, then drop the legs back down for support.I'll gladly admit I haven't tried this, but it seems like a feasible idea to me. But then again, it's usually not the length of the jointer table that I find limiting -- it's the width. I have a Euro style 10" jointer planer combo machine that Rikon sold for a little while which has a 40" long bed, and I've been able to joint 6 foot long boards without problems. On the other hand, I've been very happy I've got the 10" width on several occasions.
Edited 5/26/2007 9:06 pm ET by wilburpan
On longer stuff like 6ft or more i use a 8' piece of aluminium 2x 6 channel on the table saw.This with a Freud 1/8" thick glue line /rip blade usually does a pretty good job.i then run it over the jointer for a final finish.The rt side of the blade gets built up with pitch/gum and then it will start tapering if i 'am running a lot. Chris
Real men just make extensions for their jointer, you can make them as long as you want. Sure beats struggling with a long heavy piece, safer too.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
"One post that comes to mind is Richard Jones' statement that the exact setting is not carved in stone -- depends on the wood (species)"
Jings, crimmens, fg. How many years ago did I say it! I still work on that basis too. Age and experience hasn't changed me, ha, ha, except I'm an even older GOB (Grumpy Old Ba---). Er, that'll have to do.
Meanwhile I think I'll go and tweak my outfeed table by a couple of thou'. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Dear John,
You said, " by actually cutting wood"
Now, that's just crazy talk. We're here to argue, not work wood!
Cheers,
Ray
Rick: Let me ask you: how much does it cost, ballpark wise, to tune a 8" jointer with no other problems? I'd like to have a professional tune up my DJ20. I can't bend too well these days and it would be worth the $ to let my back have a break. Also how do you find someone to do this kind of service? Nothing in the phone book unless it is listed under a heading I've not thought to look at.
DukeSupport the Troops, Support your Country
Support Western Civilization:
Fight Islamofascism
Of course two convex bellies touching doubles the amount of the discrepancy in one board.
Convexity no good for glue-ups.
If the boards, when placed edge to edge, spin in the middle and don't touch at the ends then you've got a problem that clamp pressure will not fix. I don't go about measuring, in thousandths at least, how much this or that is out, I just offer the workpieces up to one another and make a go/no-go decision.
I will say this, the average hobbyist/small pro shop jointer has an absolutely unsurpassed potential to cause frustration - more than any other machine in your shop.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 5/23/2007 11:15 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled