Let’s supposed that you came into some money, around $500. You are a intermediate level woodworker, building primarily armiores, book shelves, cradles, etc. Your current shop consists of a table saw, planer, jig saw, scroll saw, router, as well as all the sanders, and assorted hand tools (planes, chisels, saws, etc)
What tool would you buy next? My list of tools that i want for my shop is long, but at the top are Jointer, Bandsaw, Lathe, Drill press, and some quality carving chisels.
I’m interested in what you guys and gals think would be the next best purchase.
I’m sure that this has been discussed before, but i thought i’d throw it out there again.
thanks
Replies
Perhaps you could answer a couple of questions to help us:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
i tried replying once, but i guess it didn't take.
For curved cuts i use my scroll saw if the wood is thin enough, otherwise it's a cheap jigsaw. And i've wasted wood planing it down because i didn't have a bandsaw to re saw it. I've wanted to build projects, but had to scrap them because i didn't have a bandsaw to cut the curves.
Since i don't have a jointer, i use the tablesaw and clean it if need be with a veritas low angle smooth plane, it's the longest plane i have. I've though about just getting a jointer plane, and skipping the powered jointer all together, i like hand tools. I've gotten good at hand cutting mortises, dovetails, and planing down the face of boards before i run it through the planer.
Mikkimel,
With $500 bucks about all you can attack on that list well is drill press..or perhaps a router table if that is desirable. Everything else on the list will cost about $1000 or more to get new and equip. If your willing to consider used stuff that is a whole different story. However, a drill press is very handy.
Band saw for sure! I'd recommend the new Grizzly 14" bandsaw, the riser block kit and some good timberwolf blades. you can get it all for <$500. I can't imagine my life without my bandsaw.
Your reply to Forest Girl makes it pretty clear that in your own mind you want a bandsaw. Guess that given the choice, I'd go the same route. (I too have never found a bit of edge jointing with a hand plane to be a formidable task.)
The only other consideration might be whether you would get more use out of a lathe or drill press. Such decisions are so very painful....
Jeff
Edited 3/18/2003 3:31:20 PM ET by Jeff K
Yub Yub I think he has already convinced himself on the Band Saw...
Make sure if you buy a band saw you buy one that can get a riser block... I made the mistake of buying a 12" and I have hit my limitation too many times... now the tool just annoys me so I avoid it.... but as my wife can testify, I look at 14" band saws all the time when we are at the box stores/rockler.... just havent broken down to buy one yet....
anyone wanna buy my 12" delta band saw?
Jeff, i was trying to be as impartial as possible, but something told me that someone would say "you've already talked yourself into the bandsaw" I guess i was right.
The jointer just seems so boring to me! The jointer does like two things, woop de do! I think most of that i can do with my router or hand tools. But I always read that you've got to get the "big three" table saw, jointer, planer.
I have had my eye on the new grizzly, as well as the JET bandsaws.
I'd also love a lathe, and will get one eventually, but i'm trying to build my shop by buying the most critical tools first.
I'd also like a complete set of LN planes, carving chisels, .......ok, i need to stop, i'm drooling on my keyboard.
Also, here's a little story that will make you scream. My brother, who is not as into woodworking as i am, goes out for a walk one saturday morning, three houses down he notices his neighbor, a retired carpenter, is setting up a garage sale. My brother purchased a lathe, planer, tons of chisels, drill press, and a bunch of other stuff for $200. I could have killed him when he told me.
The only consolation that i have is that mom loved me best.........;o)
Sounds like the bandsaw is the best choice (although, jointers can do way more than 2 things, LOL!). The new Grizzly 14" looks like a heck of a machine for the $$. Not sure how close to $500 the Delta and Jet are.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's the chance to get back at your brother....I currently am selling a lathe and a bandsaw.
They are both old, solid craftsman machines and both work great.
I personally love the old machines because they're solid and are usually driven by a simple grinder motor.
I'm selling both because I received replacements that suited my needs better.
Interested?
possibly
need specs
and what you want for them.
Let me check model #'s and specs tonight. I'll send you a message tomorrow.
If he's not, I might be, if your somewhere's in New England.
Jeff
I'm in Connecticut! Also, I'm planning a trip to VT in the next couple weeks.
OK
SO, fill me in and all.
Jeff
Jeff - I need to get exact specs off the machines. Also, I'll provide model #'s. Let's handle this offline. Call me at 203-216-4629.
If it were me with only $500 to spend, a jointer would be next. It is difficult to get square edges without a lot of practice using a handheld jointer plane. Edges and glue ups are easier with straight edges.
Now for another option. If you don't already have a router table, it is time to build or buy one. Any of the router books on the market can show how to joint edges using a router with an offset fence. Just a thought.
So many tool catalogs, so few winning lottery tickets. (Sandor)
Bandsaw unless you do a lot of work with rough sawn wood..
If you start with rough sawn then you'll need a jointer. then bandsaw.
Myself with the money I could save by using rough sawn green wood over store prices I could save enough using the planner and jointer to pay for the bandsaw in short order..
I think it's great if you can square edge or surface with a hand plane! You can joint edges with a router and also do larger surfaces with the correct bit and setup. Granted this isn't the most efficient way to square an edge or surface but it's doable. Depending on your work and style, non of your other tools could really substitute for the bandsaw.
My first cornerstone tools where the tablesaw, jointer and router. I wouldn't trade any one of them in for another but...
I'm in the market for a bandsaw and I HAVE to have one!
You don't need another tool. Find a college and take some sort of a design course in their art department.
Break out of the "My woodworking would be better if I owned this tool" syndrome.
CS: Read (or re-read) his second post: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=11286.3
Sounds to me like he's actively working with the tools he has, exercises creative problem solving vis a vis his limited tool resources, and is carefully considering where to put his next dollar. I don't see any syndromes here at all.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
How about a compromise? He can buy a bowsaw for $40 and then spend the rest on a design course. A bowsaw has infinitely more capacity than a bandsaw that can be bought for $500. In fact, $500 bucks won't even buy a decent bandsaw much less the much-needed riser block to go with it. For that you'll need closer to $800 bucks and then all you've got is a roll-the-dice Tiawanese saw.
If he needs a tool to cut curves, or even do a little resawing, a bowsaw or two with some accessory blades will get him a lot further down the road than a cheap, $500 consumer-grade bandsaw.
Now, if Jeff doesn't already own a jointer plane he should absolutely buy one before worrying about bandsaws. If he's not convinced he wants to go the hand tool route then he should get an electric jointer.
He needs the necessary tools to four-square stock. That's a basic, no-compromise requirement of the craft that is difficult to work around.
Edited 3/19/2003 6:56:17 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Edited 3/19/2003 12:57:30 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Thanks for all your advice folks. I knew it would be interesting. I will admit that i do have a bit of syndrom, but that comes and goes. I sometimes think that i absolutely cannot live without a certain tool, then it passes and i need another one.
Then my wife reminds me that i built my first project ever, our bed, on the deck of our apartment, which was about 3' by 7'. The only tools i had were a hand saw and miter box, $7 at home depot, a ten year old black and decker router i borrowed from my dad, and a drill. And it's still one of her favorite things i've made.
Two years later i have a house with a garage that has never had a car in it (i'm proud of that), and way more tools.
Since we're kind of on this topic, i wonder,
What's your favorite tool that you own? Could be hand, powered, whatever? Doesn't necessarily have to be the one you use the most.
Mikkemel
No question the cabinet saw is my favorite. A close second would be the workbench. The lathe allows you to go in a different direction. Damn, that is a tough question...lol.
Wives are great for those left handed compliments. Mine likes to remind me of the stero center I built in grad school with a cutting board (hammer) screw driver and a nail. Just remind her you can get a great sandwich at a drive up window too...no you better not...lol
ok, CHASSTANFORD, prove your point, how is a bowsaw infinately more usefull them a bandsaw?
I want details! ;o)
Because a bowsaw could cut the curve on a workpiece as big as your garage shop. A piddly $500 bandsaw couldn't even come close. The average $500 bandsaw would stall in 12/4 stock. A bowsaw won't. A bowsaw ( a larger one) can re-saw stock wider than a 14" bandsaw with a riser block installed can handle.
Contemplate the differences between taking the saw to the work vs. the work to the saw. And while you're doing this, picuture the 18"x18" (or so) table on most small bandsaws.
And after you buy a couple of bowsaws you'd still have some money left to buy stock to actually build something.
Need more?
Interesting.
Anyone have any comments?
Can you recommend a good bowsaw and where i could get it?
Chas is correct & Bowsaws can be bought at:
http://www.garrettwade.com/
http://www.diefenbacher.com/
There are other places to buy them but I thought of listing two good sources I know of.
There was an article in FWW awhile back about a guy who used only handtools to build his furniture. There was a picture of him using a bowsaw and he spoke about it. Sorry but I don't recall what issue that was. He also said he only uses Lie-Nelsen planes.
Edited 3/19/2003 2:57:46 PM ET by Lar
Highland Hardware, Dieter Schmid - Berlin, Germany (Fine-Tools.com), Garrett-Wade to name a few.
Dieter was a better deal when the Euro was trading at .93; now it's in the 1.06 to 1.10 range and Dieter bills in Euros. My first job out of college was trading spot forex for a bank in London so I'm kind of tuned in to exchange rates. But Dieter is easy to deal with and he'll pack your order in German newspapers which are fun to read (don't get excited, Colleen).
I throw Dieter business because he's Dieter.
I'm sure building one would be satisfying but I've never looked into it. I'm satisfied enough as it is just building furniture.
Hmmmmm....
Very interesting. Is it possible to cut thin (1/8" or so) veneers with this zeug?
Sure, can you mark a line and cut to it? I wouldn't want cutting 1/8" skins to be my debut with a bowsaw though. You'll need some practice. Aaaarggh, Charles, you mean something that might take a little skill developed by practice? Yes, I do.
Here's a tip if you try it - make damn sure you flatten one face of the board first and then use your marking gauge registered off of that face to mark your cut line; cut a shade wide of the line and flatten the resulting skin - I call 'em skins. They're too thin to be a board and too thick to be 'veneer' (by today's mechanized standards). Taking the board down from 1/8 to something thinner with a handplane requires a tad bit of practice, but not much. I hold the skins down with carpet tape and plane slowly. This is when John Coltrane and Mile Davis can be a big help. Throw 'dem boys on, have a glass of red wine, relax and do the job. A light scraping cleans up the adhesive and you're done.
You can cut and dress the skins for the drawer fronts for a pair of Sheraton end tables in much less than an hour, easily. Hell, you'll still have your red wine buzz on when you're finished. You could actually trick your shop out with candles and oil lamps, add some nice Hor's Doeuvres and a few invited guests, and do your work to an adoring audience. Pass the bong.
There is no reason to make the easy stuff difficult. And this is one of the easy things. The hard stuff to do is junk like cutting joinery on curved workpieces, fitting stretchers on chair legs, compound angled this and that, etc.
There is way to much capital and angst being spent on the relatively easy aspects of woodworking in my insignificant opinion. No need to work yourself up into a lather when cutting curves or doing simple re-sawing, or four-squaring stock, or crosscutting and so forth.
Edited 3/19/2003 8:49:26 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Very good.
It's worth the $40.00 risk.
And as a token of my appreciation I would like to recommend "Prime Directive" by the Dave Holland Quintet. You can get the CD for less than $20.00 - well worth the risk!
Thanks
I'd actually recommend getting two - one set up with a thin blade for curves (also called a 'turning saw', but it's a bow saw - Garrett Wade has them), and another with a wide rip blade installed - fine-tools.com or Highland Hardware.
I'll give the CD a whirl.
Adoring Audiance???....I can hear them now....the wine is cheap, chopped liver needs more onion....and whose the fat guy playing the mini-harp ....nice cabinet saw ...lol.
I am curious about resawing with the bow saw for things like draw sides. I'm assuming you can resaw as long a board as you like with say a 24 or 30" bow saw? thanks
Sure, the blade turns to provide clearance from the frame of the saw so you can resaw as long a board as you like.
Dude, are you on Dog food?????? What the hell are you talking about???? I can resaw 10 inches no problem on my band saw. Where are you getting your information from????????? Damn stupid if you ask me.
Ahhhhh, this oughta be fun -- might as well go out in the woods and take a cattle prod to a bear! Bye guys, I'm taking refuge.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
In my part of the country, there's some NASCAR people that will fistfight over some supposed, mythological differences between Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. Some of these tool discussions remind me of the same thing, especially when it comes to tablesaws.
Baseball is almost here, FG. You're lucky your Seattle team doesn't have to face my Atlanta Braves!
The NBA play-off race IS here and both your sorry teams will have to get past the Great Wall of China!
Thhhhhhppppt!!!
Woof, woof.
Is ten inches supposed to be outstanding resaw capacity? I must be missing something... Dude. Or you've drunk the Kool-Aid.
Edited 3/20/2003 8:12:44 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
umm no it's not outstanding, but if you reread your earlier post it says bandsaws stall in 12/4 wood. you do realize 12/4 is only 3 inches thich don't you????? Dude, 10 inches is 7 more than 3 and it doesn't stall. What kind of bandsaw you got anyway? an old 10 inch crapsman????
What I was attempting to refer to, and my post was a bit unclear although I think others understood what I was talking about, was the tendency for the average bandsaw to stall in thick material when making curved cuts. A bowsaw can cut a much tighter radius, requires fewer release cuts, and therefore leaves a smoother finish in my opinion.
I've owned big bandsaws and little bandsaws. I always used quality blades and stoned the back of the blade to help in curved cuts, and still could not come close to cutting as tight a radius, without binding and stalling the blade, as I could with a bow saw.
You may be able to get more out of your saw than I could from mine. If so, that's great.
Yep, a bandsaw will beat hand power all day long in making long, sweeping curves repetitively (as long as the workpiece is not too large to hoist up on the table).
The bandsaw was just a tool I didn't run all day long and I found that the functions it performed for me were very easily replaced with hand power. Accordingly, I like to point out that alternative to those who have yet to make a purchase.
Edited 3/22/2003 12:45:15 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
It's all cool. I understand what you were saying now and yes I do agree with you. It's cool. I do like the use of hand tools that you suggested. Might have to look into a bow saw now. Thanks for the info man.
10" resaw capacity isn't much at all, but that's about the max for a 14" Bandsaw. A Bow Saw can do alot more. Plus with a Bow Saw you get some exercise in by doing the work instead of watching a machine do it.
Edited 3/20/2003 10:04:43 PM ET by Lar
If Mikkimel is still looking or haven't decided on the next tool,Stop and think!! What kind of woodworking are you doing? I'm a professional furniture builder and I don't own a jointer and work with rough sawn lumber all the time, a lot depends on the type of things your building on the tools needed, What is it just a fantasy to have a shop full of tools to look at , Tell me , I;ve been giving advice to a lot of beginners, and I always tell them to start with a good table saw , #2 what ever you think you would use more and need the worst or more and so on and so on! I've built from gun cabinets to Dinning room tables and chairs with only, 10" table saw ,bench drill press,14" band saw , 6X48 belt sander and a 18" woodmaster plainer/ sander, plus the necessary hand tools and for the past 18 yrs I've worked out of a 2 stall garage,and it's not a shop like you see in one of the wwmagizines, Like to see some of my work? check it out at http://www.furniturebydouglas.com Any questions feel free to inquire through the web site.
GOOD LUCK! and don't think to long about this ,life goes by to fast!
I have a bandsaw and I got along for many many years without a jointer. But, now that I have one, I don't know what I'd do without it!
For general amateur woodworking, I'd have to put a bandsaw first and a jointer as shortly thereafter as feasible (considering just those two tools). Once you have both, your table saw probable will start getting a little rusty.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
design course my butt!
woodworking is a personal taste thing. I might like the look of contrasting woods while an instructor will explain in great detail that it isn't right.. or visa versa..
Quality of your work on the other hand can not be a judgement thing.. if the joints are sloppy loose or boards cut crooked all of the classes in the world won't make it good.
Power tools are an aid, a crutch to some but In the time I can saw a line straight and then hand plane it correct, I can do three times the work, that allows me three times the chance to improve my workmanship.
There is no free lunch, practice makes perfect. besides this is a microwave world where instant gratification is needed or "it's Boring"! learn to makesomething with power tools and then once it becomes easy, you can challange yourself to do it by hand.
Well, I disagree. And I was not specifically talking about a woodworking design course. In fact, a drawing or painting class would probably be even better. These things force you to notice shape, color, dimension, perspective, and all the other nuances that can help one become a better craftsman/artist (although we know the term "artist" is a very loaded term). I believe that these courses can even help one appreciate the repro. work they do.
Maybe your own designs leave little, if anything, to be desired.
If that's the case then I congratulate you and my advice wouldn't apply to you.
Power tools are an aid, a crutch to some but In the time I can saw a line straight and then hand plane it correct, I can do three times the work, that allows me three times the chance to improve my workmanship.
You seem to be making the assertion that one process somehow takes away from another and I very much disagree with that.
doesn't it depend on where you wish to go with your woodworking? For example if you were to specialize in reproduction of the classics, or Amish, Stickley,.... whatever there is no design involved.
other times the space available dictates sizes etc.. entertainment centers, cabinets, whatever...
Freehand work is designed to take advantage of wood features and as such dictate style etc.
The only time in fact a design course could or would help someone is in the creation of modern or new contempory freestanding furniture..
My comment is that it is relatively easy to shove a board across a jointer compared to the skill required to achieve the same thing with a hand plane.
While I don't devalue the skill involved in hand work (and in fact admire it) to get entry level woodworkers engrossed in woodworking the best path is to let them achieve some success. let them master construction, etc. and then add to the challenge if they are interested..
I respectfully disagree again; actually I believe that design training can open the eyes to just how much the work one is trying to reproduce really is art. And to the extent that makes the woodworker approach a repro. commission as a work of art then I think value is added to the piece. At a minimum, value and enjoyment is added to the process of making the piece. Some of the best money I ever spent on my craft was tuition for a few university furniture history courses and beyond that some drawing classes I took as well.
I do agree with you that early success in the craft is a good thing. And really the current status of the craft is on your side rather than mine in that all the big names generally blend power and hand tool usage as opposed to an either/or scenario. I like hand tool usage as much for the shop environment as anything else. But that's not to be discounted if one spends a lot of time in the shop.
Edited 3/22/2003 12:51:22 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
while I won't disagree that understanding the art of wood working thru the design of fine pieces of furniture is a good thing, I do disagree that it should come first.
If you ever go to an auction or someplace where the wealthy flaunt their money, too often you'll see people bidding on things because they are a "name" rather than seeing the piece for the craft/ skill and talent that created it, they are choosing to buy what is "known' and accepted rather than develop their own values..
They,.... should take the courses, however if you have enough wealth you don't need to, you simply hire that done for you....
as a first step into wood working I'm afraid that could hinder rather than help the novice woodworker. he'll look at his pitifull efforts and feel ashamed and that simply isn't the best way to interest novices in our craft.
Nothing beats instant gratification.. and if in the process they find out that they really don't have the temperment/ talent to do wood working some "name" brand tools will come on the used market..I'm not certain how that is a bad thing?
I do know that if you give the average person a saw and a line to cut it to. It won't wind up being a straight line nor will it be quick. However it doesn't take much skill to shove a piece of wood thru a table saw..
And presto! The kid who got "D's" in shop class is a wood worker! That is a good thing for our hobby. There are 280 million people in america. if 10% of them did wood working the market for tools would be 28 million.. multiply that times a few hundred dollars per tool and suddenly there is a huge economic engine driving our hobby! With economics of scale and competitive pressure the price of quality stuff will decrease and the safety/ useability of that stuff will greatly increase..
Thank you for that. Something I sould pay attention to
I'd make my wife turn tricks until I could afford the Bandsaw, jointer, and drill press. Then, out of pure love, I'd hold off on the lathe.
Consider this: you need those tools in your shop and good ones will last a lifetime. Your wife could drop dead tommorrow and be of no further use. So which is the better value...??
Good luck!
WOW. Have you considered marriage counselling?
Bahahahahaha...good points all around.
Damn, good point!!!
I am going to throw a wrench into the gears here by saying buy both the jointer & 14 inch bandsaw, how for $500.00 you going to do that??? Do you have a Harbor freight store near you?? if not check em out on the web you can get a BS & jointer for the $500.00.. now thats a value...
Happy woodworking.. ToolDoc
I knew a warrant officer in the Navy who had a high-low approach to tools and shop outfitting. His main interest was in carving, and he was very, very good at it, and of course had a huge selection of carving tools. For machines, he had an expensive cabinet saw, an expensive 8 inch jointer, an expensive spindle shaper, but the cheapest possible band saw - it may have been harbor freight. He was never going to do resawing - only used it for cutting the occasional curve. It worked for him.
Tim, if you read this and recognize yourself, hope you're enjoying retirement!
Edited 3/19/2003 11:14:58 AM ET by Ed from Mississippi
Only a value if they work, right? I dunno. Haven't been convinced yet that the HF tools are ready to be bought sight unseen.forestgirl [disguised as devil's advocate ;-)
OH Yea Old First Lady of the Forest; Jamie you make a very good point,but I was waiting for someone to point this out,cause IM loaded for Bear on this!!!
Just takethe time to research HF in these forums just go to woodnet there are a ton of happy users there and to quote a Hf user "those that knock HF tools are those that have never owned one or bothered to even take the time to look at one" guess we all do this one time or another,just like to add that I bought a drill press from them 20 odd years ago and guess what gang I am very Happy with it.. the morrow of todays tale is dont shove your feet in your mouths unless you have been there and done that..LOL.. oh ya please dont think Im a big Hf lover cause as the old saying goes "Let the Buyer Beware"
Thank You and have a nice Day.. ToolDoc
I just bought the grizzly 1019Z bandsaw on their website. It is the closeout section. This thing is beautiful. Plenty of power and you cab get a 4 inch riser block for it to resaw up to 10 3/8 inches. The motor has plenty of power (1 hp) to cut anything you cab put through it. It just needs a good blade (non-factory). I got mine for just over 300 dollars delivered. That even leaves you 200 dollars to play with or put toward a jointer (used one maybe???) or to buy other nice toys with!! hope this helps you out.
Bandsaw,Drill press,jointer,lathe...in that order. IMO.
Hi Brian,
I recall seeing an article somewhere that more or less followed your opinion.
Just thought I'd weigh in with my 0.02 cents
I use power tools at work and all (well, almost. . . see later) hand tools at home, a cabinetmaker and high school woodwork teacher by trade.
I support Chas' original comments - Mikkimel, invest the money in training, extend yourself and you'll find that you're a lot better skilled and a lot more versatile in whatever you do with wood. The skills are transferable.
At work, power tools work fine. Time is money when you're paying rent. In a school, I teach power and hand tool use and the rent isn't an issue.
At home, power tools wake up the neighbours and our kids. The only exception is a USD10- (?) cheapo bandsaw that I got at a garage (US yard) sale that runs quiet and the price was right.
Before then, I used bowsaws at home to cut any complex curve. Lars is a Danish (?) tradesman and is trained in their use. I was trained by an old German guild cabinetmaker so I'm strong on traditional tools. I have two bowsaws, one marples 12" rip and a homemade 24" crosscut (that still rips quite well)
I still find myself reaching for the bowsaw if the cut is less than 24" long in 3/4" stock, as I can cut it quicker with a bowsaw than to take the bandsaw out of the shelf, move 4', drop a pin through all four feet to lock it in place, make the cut, then pack it up again. The holes in the feet of the saw line up neatly with the dog holes in my bench, so I just drop a pin through each hold down hole to stop it from moving sideways. More good luck than good management.
Re: How do you make 1/8" veneers with a bow saw (frame saw), here's how. Takes 5 minutes.
I've got a foot in both camps, but repeat that the best use of your money is to spend time being 'stretched' in your ability, and learning different techniques. If you must buy equipment, get whatever you think you need, but you could still be limiting yourself ability-wise. Goes for both hand and power tools.
Just food for thought and my opinion,
Cheers,
eddie
That's quite a "Here's How" reference! Thanx.
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