I am trying to make a final decision on which Jointer to purchase. I have narrowed the field to the Delta 6″, the Jet 6″ and the new General 8″ jointer. I am interested in any all thoughts you might have.
Thank you.
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Replies
Why limit yourself to 6 or 8 inches? Grizzly has a 12 incher for not too much more.
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Dear Jack,
I have a PM 64A (Powermatic 6" long bed) that I am very happy with, BUT, if I had to do it again I would DEFINITELY get an 8". The new PM 60B 8" has a 73" bed with what is most likely a three (not four) knife cutterhead for $1099.00 in the amazon cataloge, NOT the website. The website lists the 60A 8" for 1799.00. I hear that the Grizzly 8" is outstanding for around 800.00, WITH a four knife cutterhead! Go for the widest, longest bed that you can afford. Much more useful machines.
Good Luck!
John
Edited 11/28/2003 10:19:24 PM ET by JMartinsky
Edited 11/30/2003 7:04:32 AM ET by JMartinsky
Edited 11/30/2003 7:05:51 AM ET by JMartinsky
i believe the 60B has a 3 knife cutterhead, not 4. John
You know, I think that you are right! I double checked the listing and there is no mention of it, and the 60 A had a three knife head, so it is reasonable to assume that the 60 B will have the same. Thanks for the catch, I shall amend my earlier reply!
John
Jack,
I bought the grizzley 8 incher and love it..
It's handled well over 20,000 bd.ft. so far with out failure.
Butt simple and honest machine that is less expensive than either of your choices..
or as said before you could buy a 12 incher for that kinda money..
Edited 11/28/2003 11:12:14 PM ET by frenchy
Where are you guys finding these bargain, 12" jointers? Even the Grizzlys are$1995.00 without shipping. That's not the same money as $800-$1000.00 in my book.
John
John, which 8" General model are you considering? The "new" one I'm seeing is around $1800. Yikes (for my pocketbook anyway). I'd have to "settle" for a Grizzly in that case, and from the reports here at Knots there's no reason to feel bad about that, LOL.
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 11/29/2003 12:21:32 PM ET by forestgirl
Hi, the General model 480 (made in Canada) is $1899, but the 80-200 (General International which is their offshore line) 8" is $1229 and Brentwood Machine in New Hampshire has a 10% off sale coming up the 15th or so of December. The 80-200 has a dial up bed and extension rollors that pull out of either end of the bed. Looks like a decent machine. General's 12" jointer is very sweet!! Now, anyone have suggestions on planers, I'm looking at the new Powermatic 20" model 209 for $1649 less 10% at Brentwood. Thanks, Daniel
I too, am in the market for a new jointer. I've owned a 6" Delta, an antique 10" Fay & Egan, and am now the happy owner of a 15 year old 8" Delta. I don't recall the model number. It's 66" long with a 2 horse motor on a closed stand. Very good machine, too small. I agree with the comment about getting the widest, longest jointer you can afford. I've been shopping around and would like to add my two cents worth to this discussion. The Delta 12", the Northtech 12", and the new Powermatic 12" appear, in print, to be the same machine, all around $3,500.00. The Powermatic salesman says their's is not the same and sent me an up-to-date photo and spec sheet. Some differences but still very strong similarities. On the other hand, the Bridgewood, Grizzly, and General 12" jointers look similar. I made phone calls to all three companies. (this is where decisions were made) Bridgewood has A showroom in PA. To me this adds up to limited customer service. Grizzly had NO-ONE who could talk to me in a salesman capacity. They don't even have a showroom, just mail order. Again, sounds like very limited customer service. General, on the other hand, has sales reps and dealers all over the country. I got ahold of the rep for my area and asked him why his machine costs $900.00 more than the Grizzly. He made some valid comments about their cheaper bearings, lower spec motor, etc. He can have the General delivered to my door in three weeks. Considering General's reputation, reviews, and my own first hand experience with their new 1" bench top mortizer, they will probably get my order. Some other things to consider: Don't buy a jointer with a four knife cutterhead (Northtech or Bridgewood) unless you plan to run a lot of stock quickly. You, like myself, most likely will not. Don't let any salesman pressure you into buying the "latest & greatest". What's hot today will be #2 when another manufacturer offer's him new incentives tomorrow. I'm no expert but I've been a professional woodworker turned hobbiest for 32 years. I can afford to look beyond the bargain brands but I am VERY careful how I spend money, therefore I've learned to shop wisely.
"Don't buy a jointer with a four knife cutterhead (Northtech or Bridgewood) unless you plan to run a lot of stock quickly."
Ken,
Why not? Can you provide more information, please.
Thanks,PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
If you read Rich's response he's right to a large extent. Cutterhead speed is important. A four knife cutterhead, if run at speeds similar to a three knife, will "burn" the surface if you don't keep up a good, steady feed rate. His remarks about older machines is also good. I'd like to find a good, used 12" jointer, but, even after spending a ton of money on the old Fay & Egan I still had a machine that was largely unusable. I suppose this experience tainted my view of buying used. In reality, most of the newer machines are very good, considering computerized design and consumer demand for quality. As I pointed out, shop wisely and be wary of salesmen. If you don't want to go the expense of a 12" an 8" is very practical. My only suggestion, based on experience, is to get the loonngest bed available. Look at the Delta 37-380 or the Powermatic 8".
You are right about being wary of salesman. And buying used has it's plusses and minuses. Same with auctions. Unless you know how to deal with and what the costs are for any possible situation from motor rebuilding, table regrinding and whatever, you had best probably not bid on anything. Four knives you just feed faster. It's pretty easy to tell if you are feeding too slow...you get a washboard effect which makes a lousy glue joint. Three or four knives shouldn't make a difference in one's choice of jointer. And there's nothing wrong with an older babbit jointer if it has a modern style cutterhead and the tables are good. The babbit machines run a little slower so you feed a little slower.
How old was your Fay and Egan? What kind of problems were you having? Old is when Fay and Eagan were seperate companies. Pretty basic machines set up up like Oliver,Crescents etc. Curious as to to how much you spent and why you had an unusable machine. Old 2 knife head? Babbit. The same machine with two different restorers can be priced many hundreds apart. Important to have a good source for table grinding, motor rebuilding, three phase conversion knowledge and a basic machine shop that can improvise.
The old guy actually was a Fay & Co. 10" with two blades and babbit bearings. Problem is I bought the machine in 1975 from the L & N Railroad in Louisville, KY. It was worn out. I brought it to Lexington and had a machine shop pour new bearings and grind the tables. I purchased a 1 ph 3 hp motor and got busy. All the work that was done on the machine was very good. The table shimming / alignment was the issue. Also, the table lenth was insufficient for long, heavy work. (I want a jointer with at least 80" tables) The jointer should have been rebuilt completely. I recently gave it to a fellow who is going to use it to straighten rough timber. It'll be OK for that. I kept the Baldor motor. I enjoy maintaining my tools and equipment, I'm just not the kind of person who wants to spend time tweeking something that keeps going out of adjustment. A new 12" jointer will be a real asset to my shop.
Just to throw my penny in and a tad suprised not to see mention of it;
Rojek, I bought a 12" planer/thicknesser 4 blade cutter head running @ >4000 revs and frankly am v impressed with its performance/quality/durability.. Its a european machine, imported to the states and well worth a look.....regards.....Iain
Rojek is a name I'm not familiar with. Do they have a web site? I'm still open...
They have a US importer advertises in FWW....great piece of kit good luck ...Iain
Rojek is tech-mark.com Made in Czechoslovakia. Been around for a few years now in the states. You should be reading Woodshop News. Pretty inexpensive wood rag that features news on tools and wood related things. No how to articles but worth a look. I get it free through the trades.
You should consider an Invicta for a new machine perhaps. They were making the big stuff for Delta 15 years ago. 16" Jointer, slider etc.
http://www.cbtoolgroup.com/invicta/jointer32.html
I'd still consider a newer used jointer than your Fay. Truly some old iron is meant to stay behind and that's one of them. If it had the newer style cutterhead maybe. Have you looked at http://www.exfactory.com Machinery broker site but gives some ideas on what's out there.
I've looked at the Invicta. Nice machine at a good price but for a 12" the table is too short.
Rich, referencing our earlier discussion about 12" jointers. Today I spoke with the Invicta importer in North Carolina. He informed me that their new DI-32 13" jointer coming out in Feb., '04 will be around 86" long. The outfeed table is being extended 16". Otherwise, the unit will be pretty much the same. Pricing, delivered, will be around $2,950.00 (buying direct). This machine is looking very attractive since I know Invicta has a good reputation. He also says they are getting their parts cross referenced with standard off-the-shelf replacements. I've decided to hold off on any jointer decisions until I get a spec sheet on this new machine. General is pretty much out of the question now, seems that everyone I've spoken with, even the dealers the General rep suggested I call, say General has very poor customer and parts support- none of them even wanted to discuss ordering their jointer for me! Check out http://www.invicta.com.br this coming Spring.
I see no reason to turn down a good deal on a jointer with a four knife cutterhead. It's relative to the cutterhead speed anyway...cuts per inch. The only drawback would be the added expense of another knife and the extra few minutes to change knives and I suppose the extra expense to sharpen another knife. Minor points if it's a good deal. Plenty of nice old Crescent jointers with four knife cutterheads still around. It's not always necessary to have a direct link to the manufacturer as they are plenty of good used machines that can be serviced by a quality dealer even if the company has long gone out of business. I've serviced plenty of old Crescents and our 20" four knife RGA jointer has no customer service support in this country but it hasn't kept me from keeping it going.
Grizzly has three showrooms by the way!
http://www.grizzly.com/showrooms.cfm?&gid=662B87BF-CC19-43E6-A2AD-C5BA807DBE40&site=grizzly
Thanks for the link. As much as I surf I should have seen the button on their site. I ran into dead ends every time I made contact with Grizzly. When I questioned one of their tech support poeple about sales support he told me their products sell themselves. Great line. But NO ONE there could answer my specific questions about their jointer. This was frustrating and a turn off.
Edited 12/2/2003 7:32:51 AM ET by Ken's Shop
Ken, I'm curious about what questions they couldn't answer for you. This whole thing seems out of character for Grizzly, but occasionally the person answering the phone really shouldn't be.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It's been about two weeks. I don't recall any specific questions, just that whoever answered the phone wanted to take an order. When I asked for someone who could answer specific questions regarding a particular machine she refered me to customer service. A service tech answered and gave me no help. He's the one that said they have no sales poeple and they rely solely on print/internet ads to promote their products. IN ALL FAIRNESS TO GRIZZLY, most of the comments I've read from Grizzly owners have been positive. A few have been negative. Most poeple seem to be suspicious of Grizzly because of their pricing. That's fair. You usually get what you pay for. I tend to lean toward name brands with a strong history. Most of you know what brands have a good reputation. But, newcomers who turn out a quality product, AND PROVIDE CUSTOMER SUPPORT, will also succeed. I.E. Jet (remember, some of us have been doing this since long before Jet hit the scene) Now look at them! Grizzly may be a great product. I don't know. I do know I need a certain comfort level when spending $$ and an older name brand will get more consideration from me. Well, I'm running out of breath with all this rambling - - - -. I want to see some more feedback.
I just purchased and received the Grizz 8x75. The luster has already faded. The box was pretty well busted up in transit. The fence was knicked up but no functional damage. There was some rust colored goop smeared around on the bed, the cutter head, and the fence. When I removed it, there was no pitting but the iron is discolored in all these spots. It is rather unsightly.
I put the base together and fired it up (almost literally). The motor draws a modest 75 amps for about 2 seconds and then trips the overload (as measured with my clamp on current probe). All the while the motor howls. I pulled the centrifigul switch to no avail. The failure is likely in the windings. A new motor is on the way.
I would send the whole thing back for a different specimen but I don't want to risk getting a new one with a bed that is not as flat. I tested this one with a 6' Starrett machinists straight edge and was impressed with the flatness. I found one area about .003" low on the diagonal measurement. When measuring parallel to the long axis, I could not find any spot more than .002" out.
I was tempted by the PM 60B. I looks a bit more refined (slightly nicer fence; long table without needing the hoaky looking extensions). But; I don't like the lever adjustment on the infeed. The outfeed adjustment is very stiff with the dinky knob they give you. The oddly shaped base is interesting but not practical. It cost about 200 more than the Grizz. And I would have to wait 2 months to get it (long lead-time from the factory).
Customer Service at Grizz is helpful and responsive so far. Good marks there. Overall, I am still very impressed with the quality of the materials and machining on the Grizzly jointer. I can find no significant functional weakness in the machine design or manufacture (other than as noted above).
Sounds like Grizz is coming through for you on the customer service end, which they usually do. I hope you gave them complete feedback on the tainted Cosmoline and the shipping damage. Shippers can sure mess up a lot!
"mlbfreestyle" -- hmmmmm, is that like Extreme Baseball?forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It's an old monicker that was laid on me about 20 years ago. Can't say that it has anything to do with me really, other than that my name is M.L.B. I use it from time to time.
I did notify Grizzly of the damage. It may help someone in the future, but I still feel like I've gotten a bum deal. The rust (or whatever it is) is from Grizzly. The kicking around the jointer took is from the shipper.
Grizzley had one of their machines damaged in transit to me and they shipped all the parts to repair it overnite air.. I don't think they are shipped like that from Grizzley
The gunk is cosmolene and I wiped it off with a can of paint thinner I had handy.
I'm most impressed after 20,000 bd.ft. have gone thru it and it's still sweet.. Never needed adjustment or moved around on me..
That "rust colored goop" you referred to isn't cosmoline is it? They slather it on to protect the cast iron surfaces during storage and shipping. It cleans off with elbow grease and WD-40, paint thinner, or kerosene. The 75 amp draw seems really high....could there be cosmoline binding up the cutter head a bit?
I've read alot of raves about this jointer and very, very few complaints. I'll bet they'd send you a new fence if you pushed them on it.
Good luck.
No. I work in the machine building industry and know what cosmoline is. This stuff may be the outgrowth of rust or some other chemical reaction with the iron.
The 75 amp draw on the motor is unrelated to the CH. The belt was off. There is an intermittent short in the stator windings. I have since received the new motor.
The fence is not the only thing that is blemished. The infeed bed is what looks really nasty. When I cleaned this goop off, the iron underneath was darkened. I could not perceive any pitting however. My main reason for keeping this specimen is the fact that the bed is quite flat. I am concerned that if I exchange it, the replacement will not be as flat (but still in spec, thus not returnable). I'll take performance over looks.
I almost used this as the reason to go back to my first choice; the PM 60B. However it costs about $200 more and I don't like the lever on the infeed. The knob that controls the outfeed is very stiff and thus difficult to make fine adjustments. The fence is a bit more refined than on the Grizz and I like the long table without needing extensions. But again; the PM advantages are primarily asthetic.
There's too many rough sawn boards that come a bit wider than 6"....go for the 8" whether it be GI, Griz, Sunhill, or Bridgewood....they're pretty similar.
Edited 11/29/2003 1:03:02 PM ET by scotty
I am with the majority on this, go with the 8". I started out with a JET 6" and outgrew it really quick. After just two years I upgraded to an 8". I was fortunate enough to find a buyer for the JET on ebay and I was out only a $70. So it worked out for me just fine. As another poster said go with the longest and widest table you can afford. I can't comment on the Grizzly since I haven't any of their machines but they are consistently getting good reviews and after all most machines are made overseas nowadays.
Carlos
Jack -
I can't much more than echo what the others have said. I have a Delta 8" jointer (DJ-20) and I'm ruing the day I didn't do more homework. Visited the Grizzley showroom a week ago and saw their 12"-er. Why 12".
I have a 13" jointer. Wouldn't I like to joint and plane a 10" wide board without having to rip in half, mill the two pieces and glue it back together!?
If I hadn't already blown my tool budget for the next three years, I'd seriously consider offering my Delta to anyone in the Mt. Vernon WA area for a decent price and upgrade to the Grizz 12" machine.
If the 8" Grizz in within your budget, let it float to the top!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Jack, I recently got the 8" Grizzly. I studied them all, shopped around for used ones and finally decided on the Grizzly. Its a nice machine for the $$, check it out.
Be patient, spend time hunting and pick up a used industrial one. I recently upgraded my jet 6" toy to a vintage 12" crescent machinery behemoth. Eight foot long tables, 1500 lbs, 3 hp, very nice. I paid $300 for it. Obviously parts are not readily available but a jointer is a pretty simple machine without any difficult parts to fabricate if necessary (other than castings). The only other obstacle is a phase converter, but if you investigate it enough you can manage to build one yourself with used and surplus parts for less than $200. If you dont want to mess with that, buy one for $500-$600, You are still less than a $1000 for a hell of a lot more machine than you will get for twice that money on new equipment. just my .02
Brian
ps. anyone have an Oliver 260 table saw available to replace a toy Jet cabinet saw.
I have no experience on any good stationary joiner other than Delta. I have owned a Ryobi portable for in the field stuff, so let me confine my thoughts to the Delta:
Pros: Delta service and parts. They use the same parts they did 20 years ago and still stock 'em. Grizzly wasn't around 15 years ago. In addition, the blades ride in slots which have springs recessed into the the slots, which when tightened, actually force the blades up with some degree of force. What this means is that to adjust the joiner blades, you don't need a fancy $100 magnetic jig or hours of time with a straight edge. Just loosen the blade ever so slightly and slide a straight edge over the outfeed table. The blade makes contact with the straight edge is perfectly (and I mean perfectly) aligned. I don't know if the other manufacturers have that, but the Delta line for this feature alone saves me hours a year in labor costs. This is great!!!!
Cons: ####c r a p p y aluminum fence. I don't care about the cheezey fence so much, its not like it has to be dead true, only straight.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Phooey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can get a bad piece of equipment from any manufacture. I am not against any tool vendor accept Sears. But then they are just going after the once a month want to be's.
The G1018 jointer is a good jointer I know of a least 3 of these machines in commercial shops & one in a hobby shop which I have used all working fine. I also know of lots of people on several woodworking forums that have this jointer.
Unless this tool is going to be used day in & day out 8-16 hrs a day solid with no let up. I don't see any reason it wouldn't do everything a regular cabinet shop or or small commercial wood working shop or hobby shop would need.
The only block I've found to this very basic machine is usually in-between the ears of the person wanting to spend much more than is necessary to do the job.
This is much more machine at a more reasonable price than was available to my Dad for his small cabinet shop in 1955. Back then most people could not have afforded the cost of some of the machines we have today & they were not commonly available to the small shop owner. Dad worked with a fixed rear table Craftsman from 1955 - 1986. Its still working great to this day I used it over the Thanksgiving weekend.
Chris please take this in the good humor that its meant. Stop oscillating & go get a G1018HW & get to work. You'll be glad you did.
Sucking.......Whoosh.......Yowl........Whoosh.........Thrump, puddytat up the DC.
Edited 12/2/2003 9:30:25 PM ET by Original-Bart
Edited 12/3/2003 9:00:32 AM ET by Original-Bart
I've got a little jointer and it's cool, but it occurs to me that no matter how big my jointer is, I'll always eventually run into something that's too wide; if nothing else, getting my glued-up as flat as I'd like. So, I've decided that for the $ I'd spend on a jointer--especially a big one--I could get at least a couple of exceptional handplanes, and a set of real nice stones. Then, I'd never have to worry about width again, and get a better surface in the bargain.
I was just a a WW show in Denver, and the Lie-Nielsons impressed me into this new viewpoint.
Charlie
My hardwood supplier has an old Oliver joiner that must be 18" wide, a three foot planer and a 48 inch sander. For a few bucks, they run the stuff through them for me. I just don't see buying the commercial grade stationary tools for lumber prep and using up valuable shop space when my supplier has it right there and charges me peanuts.
I barely have enough room to turn around.
I do have a question about other joiners. Do they share the spring loaded gibs that Delta has? I tell you, calibrating those Delta joiners takes about 5 minutes.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
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