I am of the opinion that the procedure of jointing is not well understood by many, including me until the past ten years or so I think. I mean the principle of the jointer to form a right angle edge (or predetermined angle) versus the flat surface. I have not read about this before so bear with me if it is already well-known.
I think one has to study the rough edge and have a plan before going thru the jointer. This is particularly true when one cannot take too much off per pass, for safety or power limitation of tool.
Example one.
If the work is concave or have concave spots and if the curvature is greater than the depth of cut each pass, then there will be a problem if one just applies even pressure on both outfeed and infeed tables and then on the outfeed table alone. One cannot apply pressure only on the outfeed table because the curvature of the tail end would elevate the work.
Example two
If the work is convex or have convex spots greater than the depth of cut, the work will not rest evenly on the outfeed table in the middle of the cut.
So I think one has to use a straight edge long enough to check for curvature.
Why do people recommend shallow depth of cut in jointing? I tend to thing that if the situation permits (enough material and power of tool), a deep cut is better.
Moreover, if the bed is twice or more the length of the work, and if there is no high spots at the ending part of the work that can force the work to be elevated from the table, one can apply pressure on both the infeed and outfeed tables throughout.
Last, as much as I see the need for many to plane with a jointer, jointing with a jointer is often not necessary as other tools will do even better. A radial arm saw with either a rip blade in rip setup or molding head with planer cutters in the molding head setup will joint quite nicely, even better, than a jointer, since one can have a very long “bed” (rotated 90 degrees). It is harder with a table saw as it does not have the length of the bed.
Any opinion?
Edited 11/27/2007 1:49 pm ET by woodenfish3
Edited 11/27/2007 1:50 pm ET by woodenfish3
Replies
If the board is significantly convex or concave, then yes, you need to address that problem first. If the bow is really severe, I would probably strike a line and remove most of it on the bandsaw. When jointing, I like to work with the concave side whenever possible, as it's easier. I'll take short cuts at both ends to bring those areas closer to the level of the central part of the board. (You have to "read" the board--it may be necessary to remove more from one end than the other.) Once the board is within 1/16" or so of straight, then I revert to the normal technique.
-Steve
I find a handplane is the most reliable method for me in dealing with significant cupping or twist on a board's face Sometimes I do it all with the plane, but other times I'll work one side to flat and then run the baord through the benchtop 'lectric planer. For edge jointing, match planing or ripping on the TS (30 tooth WWII blade) are the most reliable and convenient.
One cannot apply pressure only on the outfeed table because the curvature of the tail end would elevate the work.
I'm assuming that you mean this after crossing the cutters from the infeed table. If this is the case then more prep work needs to be done B4 using the jointer or it will be very difficult to square it.
This sound to like a classic case where the board needs to be hand planed first to remove the offending areas of the board. Get the board reasonably flat on one face first, then clean up with light cuts on the jointer using normal techniques, i.e. pressure on infeed first.
When the board gets to the outfeed, apply pressure on the outfeed and finish the board. If the board is that far out of square then you have 2 choices: 1. get another board or 2. make one face reasonably flat B4 using the jointer (handplanes).
Why do people recommend shallow depth of cut in jointing? I tend to thing that if the situation permits (enough material and power of tool), a deep cut is better.
I might be going out on a limb a bit here but safety is one very good reason for light cuts, the board could kick back when taking heavy cuts. Light cuts are easier on the machine and allow the user to creep up on squareness in a safe manner.
I can't think of any situation where taking heavy cuts is better on any dimensioning tool. As I said, I may be going out on a limb here.
one can apply pressure on both the infeed and outfeed tables throughout
Putting even pressure on both tables is something I just can't fathom on a jointer. No matter how you try you are bound to end up with heavier cuts on each end than in the middle.
I don't mean to be critical but do you understand the basic operations of a jointer? The reason I ask this question is your comment, re. A radial arm saw with either a rip blade in rip setup or molding head with planer cutters in the molding head setup will joint quite nicely, even better, than a jointer
Now lets all get together on this and see if we can get it right.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/27/2007 2:27 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"Putting even pressure on both tables is something I just can't fathom on a jointer."
Yes, most jointers are not longer than twice the length of the work.
If your jointer table is at least twice the length of the work, and if the rough surface is such that the whole piece (by its high points) will be support by the infeed table, then applying pressure throughtout is the best. Why not? The depth of cut has to be enough so that the cut edge rests entirely and evenly against the outfeed table.
The standard technique in applying pressure only on the outfeed table (after a portion of cut) is due to the fact that the outfeed and infeed tables are short and it is then necessary to duplicate the surface of the outfeed, with the tail end of the work sort of dangling. (If the tail end does not dangle, then it would tend to elevate the whole work as it passes on the infeed table.)
I tend to think that a very long bed has this advantage in that one can apply pressure evenly throughout the cut and the entire length of the board. That is also why a RAS with a very long table, over eight feet long, would joint a four foot board this way.
A hand plane is interesting in that the outfeed table and the infeed table are at the same level; the cutter is elevated.
Edited 11/27/2007 3:23 pm ET by woodenfish3
Edited 11/27/2007 3:28 pm ET by woodenfish3
No, the reason for applying pressure only on the downfeed table is not because the tables are short. The problem with applying pressure on the infeed table is that if the board isn't flat (and it isn't or you wouldn't be jointing it), the pressure you exert will cause it to flex, and you'll end up with a board that's still not flat. This isn't much of a factor when jointing the edge of a wide board, since the wide board won't flex much within the plane of the face, but it is when jointing the face of any board or the edge of a narrow one.
-Steve
I believe in jointing (vs planing) flexing of the material is not an issue.
Simply put, if the infeed table is long enough for the entire work, and the work does not rock on the infeed table lengthwise, and the work does not have a dominate concave or convex characteristic by the edge and has numerous high points so that it is stable on the infeed table, then one should apply pressure along the entire length of the piece on both infeed and outfeed tables.
This is not a strange situation and is in fact common, if one has a long enough table.
"...the work does not have a dominate concave or convex characteristic by the edge and has numerous high points so that it is stable on the infeed table..."
Well, duh. If you constrain the parameters of a problem so narrowly that you can't possibly fail, then you won't fail, obviously. It may be "common" for all of those conditions to be met, but it certainly isn't uncommon for them not to be.
-Steve
Yes and no.
Often this is the situation.
A piece would be rough at the edge but there is no predominant curvature. There are numerous high points. It does not rock lengthwise and is stable on the infeed table.
Moreover, I think one should "prep" the piece with say a bandsaw so that this is indeed the situation.
If the infeed table is long enough so that it supports the whole piece, then one should apply pressure throughout the cut and evenly along the whole length of the piece across both infeed and outfeed tables.
Steve,
This isn't much of a factor when jointing the edge of a wide board, since the wide board won't flex much within the plane of the face, but it is when jointing the face of any board or the edge of a narrow one.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this cause the end result to be tapered?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this cause the end result to be tapered?"
Yes, it could--you still have to do the nibble-away-at-both-ends thing. The discussion by that point had turned to the continuous application of pressure on the infeed table throughout the duration of the cut, and I was referring specifically to the problems related to that.
-Steve
Steve,
Yes, I read that too. I still can't make any sense of it. It seems to be against all that I have ever been told about the operation of a jointer unless a tapered result is what you're looking for.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
IMO, there is a difference between the sharpness of the mind and proficiency.
You know that you should apply pressure only on the outfeed in a jointer, but can you always do it well?
The jointer really has a gap between theory and in practice.
Theory: only the outfeed matters. The infeed is only to position the work to start a cut and to set the depth of cut. Once a cut has started all pressure should be on the outfeed, which translates its flatness to the work.
Practice:
The cutter is spinning. You have to wait until the work is several inches passed the cutter (may I say the guard) onto the outfeed to apply pressure. The weight of the tail end of the work is against your force on the outfeed.
How the gap between theory and practice affects the result depends on the board (curvature) and the depth of cut that could neutralize the problem with the curvature.
If the infeed is longer than the work, and if the work is stable (does not rock) on the infeed, the whole process is stable and one can apply force uniformly. One does not need to cut off some ends for snipe. That is way I like a very long infeed for the sureness and why I seldom joint with a jointer anymore.
Edited 11/29/2007 3:25 pm ET by woodenfish3
It is a technique that, like most other processes need to be practiced. The technique that I use will in all likelyhood be questiond by others. But I rarely have to deal with really long pieces so that may be why it works for me.
Assuming that we are only talking about jointing the edge vs flattening the face (In this scenario I have already done that) I start placing the flattened face against the fence and with a light cut proceed to pass the piece past the cutterhead.
When there is enough of the edge on the outfeed table for good purchase, say 1' to 18", I press the board against the fence with my right hand while moving my left hand on top of the left end of the board on the outfeed table and press down, all the while moving the board thru the cut and imediately move my right hand over to apply downward pressure just past the cutter on the outfeed table and finish the pass.
Pant, pant, pant. I know, that's a lot to swallow in one breath. Practice, practice and more practice.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Why do people recommend shallow depth of cut in jointing? I tend to thing that if the situation permits (enough material and power of tool), a deep cut is better.
Good question.
The depth of cut will very on each board you are working with. If your board you are going to joint has a bow on the edge or the face, greater than 3/8", set the depth of cut to 1/8" till you cut each end of the board to get it close. Once the board is close re-adjust the depth of cut to 1/16" or less. The thinner the cut the better the edge or face will look after being milled. Also the feed rate is important. The slower you go, you will have less milling marks from the jointer blades.
I believe the point is that one cannot thoughtlessly joint a board thru a jointer.
If the board is concave at the edge and is longer than the infeed table, the depth of cut will have to be eventually enough to take care of the curvature, otherwise the tail end will cause the whole board to be elevated as the tail end passes thru the infeed table.
If the concave board is shorter than the infeed table, then it will be obvious to see if the depth of cut will be enough to neutralize the effect of the curvature. Moreover, if the board is stable on the infeed table, one can and should apply pressure on the whole length of the board on both the infeed and outfeed for the entire cut.
I think one should turn a convex board into concave (or straight by chance) by running only the middle on the jointer. A convex board is harder to joint.
One last point is that a long infeed table has the great advantage of not requiring the user to have much skill, when to ease off pressure on the infeed and apply pressure only on the outfeed.
I seldom use my jointer to joint anymore. It is only 44 inches or so long, the infeed table is only 22 inches. I use my RAS to joint, and I seldom use solid stock thicker than 4/4, except occasional table legs.
Edited 11/28/2007 1:16 am ET by woodenfish3
Edited 11/28/2007 1:21 am ET by woodenfish3
I bought a set of alum. clamps at Woodcraft that you attach to a deformed board, that in turn attach a correct length of straight board. Run it thru the TS to remove the two high spots, then joint the edge true. I think they were $ 28.95 at Woodcraft. Very handy and quick
James
Sadly, I have to agree with Steve. It seems to be much easier to joint a board with the concave side down (and oriented by grain). Use of a straightedge seems obvious here (even to a relative newbie). I mark the curve on the side of the board and sometimes draw lines on the face to be cut to see where its cutting.
Applying pressure on both tables throughout the cut only planes the side; might as well use the planer, but it won't end up flat. If the board is flat enough to cut with pressure on both tables, it probably only needs planing.
If the curve is so great on a board that long, it wouldn't leave much after jointing so I would choose another or crosscut it first. I don't see how taking deeper cuts would be better?
I don't have a RAS, but I find the jointer is more accurate and draws a smoother face than a blade oriented the other way (having to slice across the width of the face).
Andy
(In case of disagreement, click my alias, then click "Ignore Posts".)
Andy,
I'm a proponent of using the RAS for many operations, but ripping is NOT one of them. I doubt anyone can convince me that a RAS is safer than a jointer for flattening the face of a board.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/28/2007 10:50 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
How many people have a jointer that has an infeed table longer then what they are trying to flatten? I doubt that many (non pros) do. Unless you only work in short small items. I mean I would expect that most people have a 6" (maybe 8" if they are lucky) jointer that has give or take 40 to 60" over all bed giving about 20 to 30 inches of infeed. That would mean small projects if you restricted your work to parts that size or smaller.
As for using the hand plan first (unless you are taking off a very small area) this seams odd. I mean the point of this tool was to do this job but it looks like some people want to use every tool but the jointer. I guess they only want to use the jointer for edge joints?
Doug
Jointing with an RAS in the rip position with a full kerf rip blade is not quite as dangerous (to whatever degree one thinks) as really ripping with an RAS. In jointing there is far less chance of kickback. Why? No parts of the stock can ever be trapped between the spinning blade and the fence. The "waste" side is really waste, has become dust, so you can use featherboards on both the infeed and the outfeed as pressure, so you can place your hands faraway. You cannot do so in real ripping as it will pinch.
With 4/4 stock I use a planer molding head on my RAS. Actually rather safe, for the same two reasons.
Nearly all jointers are too short for jointing without acquired proficiency by practice, so I seldom use one for jointing. If the infeed is longer than the stock, the whole process is decided by geometric factors, little proficiency is needed.
You may still need a jointer for planing, but with the right jig a weekend WWer can use a thickness planer to plane. Slow but works.
it looks like some people want to use every tool but the jointer.
That's me, alright. I like all my tools pretty much, except the jointer. No doubt it's my inability to set it up well enough or push stuff through it with the right touch, but for every board it helps there's one it hurts as far as making things worse or not fixed. Especially when it comes to face flattening, I find the trick of placing the right amount of pressure in the right spots throughout the pass (especially for long boards) is not easy. Plus my Jointer is only 6", so many boards are not jointer candidates to begin with (I ain't removing the guard and running half at a time). Handplanes and the benchtop planer for faces (along with the TS for edges) carry me a long way.
"Sadly, I have to agree with Steve."
You make it sound so painful....
-Steve
I find inexperienced users have all sorts of problems with surface planers (jointers.) The biggest problem always seems to be that they can't straighten edges or faces when the plank is two or three times longer than the total bed length.
In this situation the technique required is a series of short cuts that often include dropping on and lifting off. For instance, if the plank has a long continuous crook on one edge one trick that often works is to place the concave edge down and take two or three short passes at the front end. Then take two or three passes at the rear end. After that you may find that a couple of passes along the whole length will straighten it out. Similar tricks are useful on warped, cupped and in winding faces too.
Assuming the machine is correctly set up and tuned, all the downward pressure and forward momentum should be on the outfeed table once enough wood has passed over the cutterhead to make this possible. The infeed table really only sets the depth of cut, and an aggresively deep first cut or two straightens a badly warped, crooked, cupped or twisted plank a lot faster than wee nibbles.
In fact wee nibbles often cause more problems than they solve-- they don't take enough off in the first place to create a flat reference surface that can be relied upon once the wood reaches the outfeed table. You do need a machine powerful enough to take an aggresive cut. Many of the 8" machines I used in the US when I lived there weren't beefy enough to take an aggresive enough first cut or two for my liking.
Given an hour or less with inexperienced users a skilled operator with an ability to teach can demonstrate all the essentials, and the learner can go through all the necessary moves. Once the various techniques are embedded in the brain and practiced sufficiently, the 'mysteries' of flattening board faces and edges on the overhand surface planer disappear.
The technique of getting a severely crooked edge straighter with a snapped chalk line and freehanded through a bandsaw is also a useful trick before planing the edge. It can definitely speed the job along. Sainte
Richard Jones Furniture
The jointer is indeed more difficult to use and the principle of it is not as obvious as other tools.
In theory, once the cut has started, only the outfeed table matters. One should apply pressure only on the outfeed once a cut has started. In practice, one has to wait until the work is a few inches onto the outfeed table before one can really apply enough pressure on the outfeed and easy pressure on the infeed. Whether this difference is important depends on curvature of the edge and the depth of cut.
The infeed table can indeed be dropped a whole inch after the cut has started and the work should just copy the flatness of the outfeed table.
Edited 11/28/2007 8:17 pm ET by woodenfish3
Richard,
To add to your tips:
Also, a severely bowed (lengthwise) board is more easily straightened by jointing the trailing end, then flipping the board end-for-end, and jointing that end as the trailing end. Using the whole length of the jointers' tables keeps things on a more even keel; as has been pointed out, the cut on the leading end of a longer piece soon runs off to nothing as the rest of the board rises onto the table. This is less of a factor when the whole length of the jointer bed is supporting the stock. An 1/8" or so depth of cut initially helps too.
Ray
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