Since I’ve been procrastinating about dust collection for years, and I saw that cyclone lid for garbage cans in the Lee Valley cataloge, I thought about whether that would really work and decided it probably would. Man, that’s the most expensive $30 garbage can lid . . . .
Any way, went out and bought the best, heaviest Rubber Maid garbage can ($35) came home, hooked it up to my new Shopvac and proceeded to clean out my table saw which was full. Periodically, I stopped to see how the ole garbage can trick was working. Lo and behold, all the saw dust WAS in the can and not the vacuum filter. Neat, great news.
When finished with the table saw, I dropped the hose which went nozzle down to the concrete. Before my eyes the plastic garbage can collapse into the FLOOR. Before I could shut off the vacuum, the 34″ tall can had collapsed down to about 18″ and almost completely folded up. Gee, that’s odd, the catalogue shows the cyclone lid on a plastic can.
Looks like I have a few modifications to make . . .. .
Replies
Wow Boatman, what sort of vac were you useing?
Ben
It's not too surprising.
If we assume the following:
- 20" diameter lid
- 0.25 atmosphere pressure difference across the lid
You get a total normal force on the lid acting to squish the can of more than 1000 pounds!
Now i have no idea if my pressure difference assumption is any good but that lid sure has a lot of area. If the can has any kind of small dent or imperfection its no surprise that it would buckle.
ain't physics fun?
I just finished (not of my choosing) 18 years in the vacuum industry. Numbers like that just so totally amazed even knowledgeable people. It doesn't take much to put quite on quite a pressure differential. Heck, that's what vacuum bagging is all about.
PS: Doesn't LV state that a small hole thru the lid is required if the lid is used on a plastic barrel? Oops, wrong audience, we don't read directions LOL. ;-)
Well, I would have read the directions if there were any, but no such luck. Besides, there are plenty of gaps under the lid, so I don't think a small hole is the answer.
Is a metal can the only hope, or do you think it's possible in some way to reinforce the can?
Yep, The same thing happened to me. My friend is mad at me now for making him buy the same. I have a 6.5 hp shop vac. So I thought I would buy a yellow rubbermade to match. I even added a gasket to improve the seal. Oh well, live and learn. I never did read the instructions...lol
Len
OK. 1 hp = 746 watts
6.5 hp = 4900 watts
Watts = Volts x Amps (see where we're going here?)
4900 Watts = 110 volts (OK, I'm assuming here...) x amps (the unknown)
4900 Watts/110 Volts = 44 Amps!!! 6.5 hp shop vac? I don't think so. <G> ;-)
Ed -
That explains why the chord for my shop vac keeps sticking to the shop floor. They should make these things with higher temperature rated chords!! (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
That cord is sticking cause you need to mop up all the spilt Moose Drool on that shop floor. That stuff gets pretty sticky when it reacts with concrete.
You know, I'm beggining to think those vacuum folks are pulling a fast one. I don't think they have a clue what HP those things put out. I think the HP thing is like that imaginary line that runs around the center of the earth. If you pretend, it's there.
Maybe they judge the HP Vacuums produce kind of like the Olymics. Have some Vac judges from various countries sitting around drinking RC colas an eating Moon Pies. The vac does it's thing and they each give it a rating from 1/2 Hp to 10 HP. If it really s*cks, we'll give it a 10 HP, if it s*cks a little less it gets 9 HP an right down the line. Take the total an average it an you got your HP rating for the next year.
Well, I guess someone will figure this out in the next few days. Maybe it won't drag out too long. If it does, it could come up as one of the hot topics in the next Presidential election. I know those politicians could figure it out. I got confidence in em'. Come to think of it, vacuums an politicians have a lot in common. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sarge:
What I did to my Unisaw was to take a 3" PVC pipe X 24" and split it lengthwise, leaving a 3" round section at one end. Then I drilled a couple holes, epoxied in an end piece and screwed it onto the opening of the dust chute which sits at a ridiculously low 20 degree angle and is as worthless as tits on a bulldozer. Adding a reducer, all I gotta do is stick the vac hose on. This gives very uneven suction across the face of the thing, but the blade makes a heck of a lot of wind and blows the dust around. It gets most of it, but a drift builds up on one corner. BUT THE BLADE NO LONGER THROWS DUST IN MY FACE. HOO-RAY.
BTW, when you add DC to a TS, what the heck do you do about the arbor tilt opening which is huge? For the time being, I just stuffed a rag in it.
Here. It's in PDF and needs Adobe to open.
Now Y'all can rest easy.....
Hint it's in the after burners.
boat
Your membership card to the Tool Modification Club is on the way. ha..ha..
Good thinking on the dust shroud. To answer your question, slap a strip or two of 1 1/2" wide duct tape over it. It not only helps keep the dust inside, it will seal the leak so more vacuum power (HP, cfm or whatever, he...) is created. When I mounted my TS top to the base of the maple cabinet I built for it, I added a piece of rubber between the top an base cabinet. Also helps the seal and reduces vibration as it acts as a shock absorber.
If company comes or you tilt the saw for angle cuts, you can pull the duct tape off. When the guest hit the end of the driveway, slap it back on. I keep a roll of duct tape hanging on all four walls of the shop for convenience. ha..ha..
I can leave my tape on normally. I do most angle cuts on the sliding compound mitre. Most cross-cutting gets done there also. My TS gets the rip, sizing large panels an wider than 12" cross-cut responsibility an most don't require having to tilt the blade.
Have a good nite, boat...
sarge..jt
I still got glue on it from the last time I used duct tape. Man I detest that stuff. Temporarily I stuffed 'em with rags, but maybe they'll become permanent.
Did you notice how the army is using duct tape in Iraq? We coulda used a whole shipload in Nam. Taped up the whole dang country. Now there's a laugh. New version of mechanical ambush -- duct tape strung across trails like flypaper. Sort of like long-line fishing.
Edited 7/29/2003 4:28:06 PM ET by boatman
boat
Hey, you got a Uni-Saw. I got a junk-saw.. If I had it I might re-consider the glue issue. The nice part bout junk is you don't care. ha..ha..
I kept duct tape in my ruck-sack in Nam. Used it for a ton of different purpose's. I never though about just taping the whole country up.
I did not catch what they were using it for in Iraq? Would like to know, though..
sarge..jt
They had duct tape back then? Didn't know that. And tell me, why would you be humping duct tape? I know guys carried some weird stuff in their rucks . . .
I saw 'em using duct tape in Irag along with ty wraps. Taped up those raggies but good, mouth, hands, feet.
boat
Duct tape has been around probably longer than you an I combined. I used it for numerous things. Field expediency. Great for making things stay together. I ran a 6 man team that stayed out for awhile an didn't get re-supply drops to keep from being compromised. Want get into that topic on this forum.
I'll pass on the Uni for now. My little junk-saw will cut perfectly straight. It will cross-cut 18" wide without a sled. In Jan. I had to rip over 2000 linear ft. of 16' long oak stock with the aid of the built on extentions an 3 flip top friction stands. All 16' was exactly the same width from stem to stern.
Remember I said the interior had been modified a tad. Maybe a tad an a half. It drives a Delta 2 HP motor off of 3 serpentine belts about 8" long. The motor shaft sits directly below the arbor and I don't lose much energy with those short belts. It's set up as a cabinet saw on the inside, not a contractors with the motor hanging out the *ss end.
I guess the bottom line is, it does everything I re-designed it too do. That's all I need..
Have a good nite...
sarge..jt
How come you didn't tell it was green and called hundred mile an hour tape. Came in 2, 4 and 6 inch wide rolls. it was developed as a sealing tape for ammo cans in WWII for the Phillipines. The oringinal spelling was DUC. Now the stuff is called 200mph.
We all "humped" it.
DUC-- wasn't that the name for that stupid amphibious vehicle they had, the one that never worked? They probably named the tape that held the DUC together after it.
LOL...
That vehicle did work. I think there were more letters than that though..
It was a modified duece.
It worked for a little while but then rusted out in a couple years and they sank. They mixed different metals together and the thing was a floating battery - galvanism ate them up.
I used to have one of them contractors saws that couldn't cut a straight line to save your life. One of the happiest days of my life was when the Unisaw arrived and I wired up that 3 hp baby 9 years ago. Maybe you otta tell Santa its about time.
Boatman,
I can't give proper credit to the member here who suggested using a sheet of plexiglass or lexan with sticky back sheet or strip magnets for sealing up the arbor tilt opening. I'm going to build one soon after covering that huge hole in the back. :o)
'Goo Gone' will handle your adhesive problem. Great stuff, I got kids.
The foam tape used in installing truck caps has several shop uses. I used it around the dust collection filler bag, Just leave the covering on the outside.
Enjoy, Roy
Before sinking the DUCK (SP?) take a search for "Half Safe" Toss in Australia for good measure. An amazing story.
200 MPH tape cuz it stayed on the Ford GT-40s at LeMans in the 1960's when they were exceeding 200 on the Mulsanne Straight!
When you find 200mph on a helo rotor and doing a fine job, you know it's some good stuff.
Great stuff 'till ya have to get rid of the glue, then you don't like it so well. Nothing like having to go out and buy something special to get stuff off. Acetone will do it, but it takes the paint off, too.
Paint thiner... More gooder.
If the Egyptians had Duck Tape, the Sphinx would still have a nose.
Enjoy, Roy
boat
I bought a 30 gal. metal can an haven't had a problem. he..he.. Well, except all that bright silver glare created by the flourescent lights shining off it. In lieu of wearing a pair of pilot's sun-glasses, I scuffed out the metal with 220 grit an sprayed it black.
Can see again an don't have to clean out the main DC bag very often as the bigger stuff drops in that can. D*mn, I'm on a roll. ha..ha..
Have fun fine tuning the new set-up...
sarge..jt
And, of course, the black now shows every particle of dust clinging to it . . . . .LOL
The yellow still looks clean even with dust on it.
I put a plywood ring inside at the first ridge and dowels as legs to the bottom. Then I cut another for the outside below the same ridge and dowels for legs. It locks the top of the can in place. I also put it on a plywood disk with wheels. I can take the inside ring out and then the Rubber Maid out of the roll around. Does any of this make sense?
Len
boat
An that's where the leaf blower clocks in an goes to work. I guess I could paint it saw-dust color. What color is that anyway? I guess I could go to Auto-Color an ask them for a pint of sawdust color gloss to put on my garbage can. ha..ha..
I like Len's idea with the re-inforcement inside. Could you possibly keep it simple by lap jointing two pieces of stock for re-inforcement? Two X's, one at the top an one in the middle. Cut them so they fit snuggly against the sides.
The poly or fiber-glass cans work the best. Problem is the cost. I priced the fiber at Highland Hardware an for what the rig would have cost, I could just about get a cyclone when it all added up. Well, not quite that much. < G >
sarge..jt
To get the saw dust color right just spray your can with some spray adhesive, turn on your leaf blower and you will have an instant finish. I might try this in the morning on my steel can the garage needs a good bj anyways. Ha Ha
tzach
Excellent idea. I'll get right on it as soon as I figure out how to get out of this little white shop jacket with all the leather straps. ha..ha..
Have a good day..
sarge..jt
Well, I got joked again. Bought a steel can this time. It crumpled like a Budweiser can. Adding injury to insult, it sucked the GD lid into the can, to boot. I mean, talk about something that sucks !!! So, I yanked the router out of the table and cut a ring that slips half-way down inside. That did the trick.
I used to laugh at that label on that plastic R2D2 and thought, 6.5 HP my butt. Now I'm only a bit less skeptical. But it still makes me wonder why my table saw has a giant 3HP motor and the shop vac a tiny little one at twice the power?
Have you ever though of turning the vac into part of vacuum clamp.
boat
Are you sure someone didn't drop a 396 cubic inch big block in that vac when you were away?
Does this happen when the end of the vac hose gets flush with the floor or something flat you're vacuuming. I have had the shop vac hose completly contract in all those ribs when that happens. If you continue to have the problem (the ring you made should work) I would also consider drilling a couple of holes in the end of the vac attachment just to relieve some of that pressure. Sounds like you got plenty even if some were released. I don't have the problem with a 6" hose on the DC. Keep in mind it never gets blocked like a Shop-Vac as it never gets put in a position to allow the opening to close completely as can an will happen with our regular vacs.
I agree about the 6.5 HP deal. It doesn't make common sense to me either (or anybody else I think). There must be some measure-ment for the vac industry that derives at that. That small motor can't have that much winding in it to produce the same horse of a TS motor. They have to measure it with a different standard, IMO. Maybe some of the EE guys can en-lighten us.
Have a good week-end an keep the phone handy. You might have to dial 911 if that "bad boy" gets out of control again. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
It's that "peak horse power" shill (horse maneure). The machine reaches a peak HP when they test it on their "special" dynamometer. But I certainly can't argue with the fact that this thing IS powerful. Suck the toenails off an elephant.
Anyway, the ring did the trick. Even when the nozzle goes flat on the floor, it didn't collapse.
FWIW, I sized the ring exactly to the middle of the tapered can and all I had to do was just drop it in and it wedges securely with no fasteners needed.
Now, this thing won't completely clean out my table saw, leaves a big pile in a back corner. But all I got to do to empty it is turn on the vac, and use a stick to to break up the pile and then it pulls it out. That's a whole lot better than shoveling out on hands and knees under the extension table with a dust pan, gas mask, etc.
Altogether, this seems to be a fairly good, cheap solution to an expensive problem (dust). Cheers.
boat
In some topic disscussions over a year ago, some of the EE guys stated they do the peak at just that, peak! Meaning at the point just before it over-heats an melt-down. Got to be able to out-perform the competitor on paper. It's the American way. Gotta be #1. < G >
Glad you got some relief from all the stooping. You might try one of those nozzles that taper to a small opening at the end for the back corner. Save you some reaching an it creates tremendous suction on that small opening. Come to think of it, never mind that thought. You stand the risk of acceidentally touching that end to your pants. With that vac you got, that could mean filing a missing person report. ha..ha..
Regards for the day...
sarge..jt
Milwaukee tools has the industry wide standard explanation on their web site or call 1-800-SAWDUST (728-3878) and ask for Bill and he's the answer man.
Tell him I sent ya.
IMERC
Thanks.. Now that's inside information...
sarge..jt
Yur welcome....
I wish I could remember (I got me CRS) the exact definition. Lack a few of the details. Without all the facts..... you know how it is.
That doesn't make you happy I have more contacts.
Email me.
Sarge -
I think the HP thing is inexorably tied to the torque thing. Now mind you, I've never really sorted out the relationship between torque and horsepower. Or horsepower itself.
I have a hard time visualizing six & 1/2 horses creating as much vacuum suction as has been described here. Nor can I envision even three horses making my 10" TS blade turn at 3450RPM or whatever and keeping it at that speed while I rip a 2" thick piece of maple.
I did, however, see at a local heritage festival a demonstration of a horse powered (real horse) circular saw. (note the "a" horse as in "one") The horse walked around on a tether inside a ring shaped corral turning a large arm connected to a vertical shaft. Through a series of pulleys to up the RPM (a walking horse in a 30' diameter corral doesn't translate into much tangential blade speed (grin) and a long belt like what we used on the threshing machines back in the mid west, the contrivance was connected to a sawblade about 20-24" in diameter with a sliding table affair. The guy was actually cutting up to 10" diameter logs with the thing as in cord wood.
No guard on the blade! Lots of barricades all around to keep the stupid from culling themselves from the gene pool, of course.
But the torque thing still mistifies me. I get torqued when people rub me the wrong way. How do I translate that into any kind of meaningful horsepower or how could I harness that torque to produce more work?
I have a torque converter in my transmission .... what does this conver the torque to? Horse power? I thought the engine already had horsepower - why create more??
I have a torque wrench but it reads in inch pounds, not horsepower. If I put the torque wrench on the arbor nut of my table saw and turned the switch on, would that be a good way to calculate the torque of the saw? (hehe) How would one use torque wrench to measure the torque of the shop vac motor?? -inquiring minds want to know.
OK, it's hot here and the Moose Drool is just too good to ignore on days like this.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Torque (or moment) = tendancy of force to rotate something about its axis. Typically measured in perpendicular distance from axis, with the force applied perpendicularly to the previously mentioned distance. ergo foot-pounds of torque.
Horsepower = 33,000 ft/pounds per minute or .746 kW.
And, going all the way back to the beginning, I, LOL, do have the instructions that came with my Lee Valley "cyclone" lid. To paraphrase, IF used with a METAL can, drill a 3/4" hole in the lid right here (picture shows location). The hole is to prevent the inversion of the lid on the can. No instructions requiring said hole when lid used with rubber barrel.
OK, Ed .... that means if the wife asks me to paint the laundry room (I *hate* painting) and I'm torqued, I'll generate more horsepower if I'm standing further away from her? Or if I use a longer pole on the roller extension, I'll have more horsepower for painting since I'll be totally torqued by that time? (grin)
OK - to appease the topic police ....
With regard to the suction power of various dust extraction mechanisms ....
What you're describing is rather odd since most full sized ducted systems I've been shopping for recently are rated at 2-3hp and 220/230 volts. And, like Sarge mentioned, the motors are, in terms of simple scale, two to three times the size. Wouldn't I like to have a 6.5hp cyclone dust extraction system in my shop!!
Additionally, look at tractor engines ....
An ordinary Kubota subcompact tractor like the B22 comes with a three cylinder 22hp engine. Now it won't outrun my F350/460 truck but I suspect it will out pull it. OK, that's merely an issue of gearing. But tractor and automobile engines seem to be judged on separate standards much like the motors between shop vacs and table saws.
OOooopps, back on topic....
Horse power aside, given a 2hp dedicated cyclone dust extraction system, I'm wondering if ordinary HVAC duct work would be sufficient to withstand the negative pressure. If I forget to open a blast gate, would I end up with a folded sheet metal ribbon between my table saw and the cyclone inlet?
Now for the opposite point of view.
Try hooking the exaust of your shop vac up to a hole in a piece of plywood with the plywood lying flat on the floor. We're talking hovercraft technology. Properly constructed, you can "float" a 600lb table saw across the floor with the touch of a finger. (almost)
For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction!
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
DENNIS
I think ED nailed it in his last post to you. I'm just not sure what he nailed. I do understand a bit about the torque-converter in your tranny. But how that little motor can produce 6 1/2 HP as stated an still get by the Truth in Advertising Act is beyond my worldly ability to reason.
Perhaps this is all a cheap "commie" plot to get us to close down our U.S. vacuum factories an move the business to China to get cheaper labor an more HP. Are "commie" horses stronger than American horses? I now there breath is stronger, as I have been on the recieving end of a Chinese horse's breath. I think it's all the raw garlic an monasium glucnomate that deliver that extra tang.
Well h*ll, I just don't know an may never know. Kind of like adding another mystery of life. You know, you buy 4 bags of groceries an take out 6 bags of trash. How does that happen? Where do all those socks go? You get the picture.
What I do know is that I'm immediately going down to my shop an put up DANGER signs on all the Shop Vacs an DC till someone comes up with a solution to all this an the "ALL-CLEAR" siren sounds. I may just board up the doors to be on the safe side. An you can be sure that if some little "commie" drops by an offers to beef up the HP on my Vacs, I'll unload a clip from my .45 Auto in his direction. Some things I'm totally clear on. ha..ha..
Pass me one of those Moose Drools, would ya....
sarge..jt
Sarge.
This post is getting better and better, now its informative and funny.
Thanks for the laughs. Love your work (referring to posts)
Ben
Ps. ALL
The term horse power came about when a fella that was making some of the first steam engines wanted an accurate way to express the strength of his machines. After some tests with a horse tethered to a pole walking in a circle (like mentioned in one of the above posts) he worked out a formula as to the amount of work one horse could do in a certain amount of time (an hour I think) I believe the formula was X weight pulled over X distance in X amount of time.
Thus, 1 Horse Power. How that scale compares to the (lets face it) relatively small amount of power produced by a shop vac, I don't know.
Edited 7/27/2003 8:38:12 PM ET by Ben
Well, Ben, your illucidating comments regarding to work over time makes a lot of sense to me.
A shop vac motor turns at near self destructive RPM. A table saw motor turns and a more civilized speed producing heavier work, thus, according to the more scholarly contribution from Ed, produces more actual work. (OK, Ed, I'd stretching it here). In the case of the shop vac, atmospheric pressure is actually providing the power to crush small stones and destroy otherwise worthwhile Rubbermaid products; all the little shop vac motor is doing is transfering the atmospheric pressure from inside the vessel and keeping it out. I suspect Arnold Schwarzenneger(sp) could do the same if paid enough and he had time outside of his political career.
So, if we took six and a half horses, tied them to a large piston that, when withdrawn would pull air into the cylinder thus creating a vacuum on the intake side of the cylinder, one could easily envision the collapse of most anything attached to the cylinder intake in a closed system. Our only concern now is being harrased by the animal rights people for cutting a horse in half for the experiment.
By the way, which half of the horse do you suppose would be most beneficial to use?
Now that you (and Ed) have cleared up both the horsepower and torque contraversy, perhaps we can go on to "brake" horsepower. Is this how much it takes to pull wagon with the brakes on?
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
I'd suggest using the top half of the horse. ha ha
At the Dunlop were I used to work, we had an electric motor that used (under full load) 440 volts and 700 amps (even a little more if we ran it too hard)!
Now if only I could hook that sucker up to a dust extraction system (and get someone else to pay the power bill)
"One horsepower is defined as the ability to lift 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute"
brake horsepower:
(bhp) A measurement of the actual usable power (not calculated power) measured at the output shaft (usually the crankshaft) rather than at the driveshaft or the wheels. Thus none of the auxiliaries (gearbox, generator, alternator, differential, water pump, etc.) are attached. It is called the brake horsepower because the shaft power is usually measured by an absorption dynamometer or "brake." This is not the brake on the vehicle's wheels but a testing device applied to the shaft. This instrument is applied to stop or absorb the rotation of the output shaft and returns a value. Compare SAE gross horsepower and SAE net horsepower.
This and more can be found at http://www.100megsfree4.com/dictionary/car-dici.htm
Ben
Sorry to say this but you left out Boat Horse Power.
BTW where is all the hay and corral going to come from?
Also which horse gets which task as in you have Shetland, Mustangs and Shires.
You are correct. The shop vac doesn't say that the MOTOR is 6.5 hp. Just a lable on the outside of the can with that number. This number includes a gravity assist equal to gravity or about 30" mercury. That's a lot.
Keep in mind that power is always a matter of direction, with gravity assist or without, rotational or static pull, with a lever or without.
Torque is the measure of power developed from a rotating shaft or body. There is always leverage there, plus centrifugal force. There is also kinetic energy that builds up in a rotating mass. The larger the mass, the greater the energy. This is the basis for the difference between horsepower and torgue.
Differences also come about in the way that power is measured. Or merely calculated.
Ben
Thanks. I enjoy the humor as much as the learning since I got on this forum a year an change ago. It adds a little needed lift every now an then.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Dennis.
I can tell you that from a motor car point of view, HP is much like inertia of the engines moving parts, the faster they spin the more energy being produced, thus as rev's increase, so does HP.
Torque is easiest explained as a V8, nothing slows it, hills don't bother it, you don't need to change down gears to overtake, it has the torque, and doesn't need to rely on HP (which is closely related to revs).
Ben ....(who has no Ph.D. and might be a bit off on some of the finer points)
Ben -
That makes perfect sense now! I mean, I can simply "idle" up the side of a hill with my 460 but I need to put my foot in the 302 in my Bronco! (grin)
Oops , they're both V8's. Now what ....hehehe.
I think Ed's calculation of the theoretical amperage for that 6.5hp shop vac motor pretty much illuminates the absurdity of the claims by the shop vac folks. In the end, perhaps it's all just relative. I think a better way of providing specs for shop vacs would be similar to how they rate dust collection systems - provide CFM and static pressure. What difference does horsepower make, then? If some vac mfr. were to design and build a vac with 1/10hp that outperformed one with 8hp (OK - not likely, just an illustration) I would think the 1/10hp model would be a killer piece of equipment.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Its all Watts boys; 746 per horse power. Volts x amps = watts. 6.5 hp would be 4625 watts. At 115 volts that would be 40.2 amps. Think he has a 50 amp 115 volt circuit in his shop? Doubt it.
cheap
I doubt it also to be serious for a moment. Like the Equator being a real line, only if you pretend. ha..ha..
Thanks for the in-put...
sarge..jt
boatman:
Reminds me of my own shopvac/plastic can experience. Exact same thing happened to me. I tried so many ways to reinforce that Rubbermaid can, to no avail.
Finally bought an industrial polyester drum, and that worked. I also noticed that when I went with a dust collector, it didn't deform the drum at all when all the blast gates were closed, as opposed to the shopvac. Must be in the numbers...
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