This may seem to be an odd question but what the heck. I have become a proficient woodworker. Can certainly work from plans; can work from a photo; can modify what I see. But I am greedy. I want more. I want to design my own work. But there is a problem. I am not an artist. So, and there is a question here, how (or is it even possible) can one move to the level of creating original designs? If there is an answer, and there may not be one, I would appreciate the input. PMM
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Replies
Graph paper...nuff said. Seriously though, designing projects is probably my favorite thing to do when bored. If I had built all the things I've designed my shop would be overflowing with things. Unless you're designing to show someone what you're building for them it's not really neccesary to be really artistic.
-Ryan C.
I'm no expert but part of the design process is solving a problem, i.e., "I have a need for a chair, bench, table, etc" and then a function needs to be specified. It needs to fit in a certain space and carry whatever weight you need. You already work with proportions, the hard part may be in translating your vision to paper (or whatever medium you want). Another kind of design has to do with freeform or non-specific use. If you aren't good or great at drafting or sketching, you can get a couple of books or take a class. Then, it just takes practice.
Not everyone can just toss a new design out there- some people are better at interpretation. I think it can be learned, to a degree. If you can get into a design class, that will definitely help.
No point in waiting. Start practicing now. Get a sketch pad and some pencils. If you want to draft it instead, go ahead but sketching is a good place to start. Home Furniture had some articles on design and some of the material is in the Taunton books on design (Practical Design, IIRC). Go to a bookstore to see what they have.
pmmatty
As with all things, you must first learn the language of design, which in this case is technical drawing. Take a drafting course, I would suggest one that teaches drafting on paper with a pencil. Drawing is technical and you do not need to be an artist to do it. Once you have learned the basics of technical drawing, then pull out the graph paper and start to sketch isometric drawings of furniture, something that you will learn in an introductory drafting course (paper oriented). Isometric drawings are pseudo 3-D, based on relationships between the top front and side views of a drawing.
Once you have mastered the basics of drafting on paper, you may go on and learn a CAD program, if you want to continue drawing on a computer...but that is not required for designing furniture and making production drawings for yourself.
Good luck, JL
By the way, if you want to learn how to draw (reproduce visually what you see), there is an excellent book called the Natural Way To Draw, by Kimon Nicolaides. It is a step by step course that will make you to become much more comfortable drawing what you see.
Hey PMM,
I have much the same difficulty when it comes to original design. I have designed two or three items, but in every case, it's been a long, iterative process. I have never yet created a design that fufilled it's purpose the first time out. Early on, this really frustrated me, I felt that I should be able to conceive a design, draw it, build it, and have it work. But it has never worked that way. Lately, I've come to grips with the reality of my design ability, to which, I need to learn from my mistakes, and I need to make mistakes to learn. It won't keep me from trying though.
Hang in there,
Tom
Edited 3/24/2007 9:36 pm ET by tms
Years ago, I saw an interview Charlie Rose did with a renowned art scholar/critic (whose name escapes me at the moment).
Anyway, Charlie asked him why he had never done any art himself, and the guy said simply, "I didn't have anything to say."
You can take all the techical drawing courses you want, but in order to create something original you need a vision of what you want to accomplish.
On the other hand, Picasso supposedly once said "all art is derivative."
In furniture making, I think that means you can build on the ideas you see around you. Frank Lloyd Wright, for instance, reviewed the Stickley stuff and built some of his own designs around those basic concepts. Some of the pieces were quite stunning and original, while others were clunky and pedestrian.
Another way into this concept is to go look at a book on cubist painting. In the 6-7 years after 1905, Picasso, Braque, Leger, and others were all in Paris and it's fascinating to see the "dialogue" between them as they produced their works in this short period. It almost seems like one would create a painting, and someone else would extend the idea in still a different direction.
I suggest it would profitable for you to learn and think about this process as you attempt to come up with your own designs.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
one interesting sidenote and building on what nikkiwood said, frank lloyd wright designed some very beautiful chairs that i understand are not particularly comfortable to sit in. what i take from that is this, some designers only consider the visual appeal of a piece rather that all the elements. i love drawing out designs for myself. sometimes i build them and usually have to do it again to correct unforeseen elements. most woodworkers are more like you than you might think. here's my opinion, pick a style you like (shaker for me) and use those elements of design to do something for your purposes. my personal experience is that sometimes it's very satisfying to design and build my own stuff. sometimes i like pieces equally well that i've built, but not designed.
go for it!
Thanks for input. I guess it is time to pull out the paper and see what will come out of this non-artistic brain of mine. Perhaps it will surprise me. PMM
This is on the sidelines, but I believe all depends on how you think. Some think in the abstract and that may assist graphic design and the following of plans. I have to have in my head a vision of my project before starting, and whilst it works for one offs, it means no two results are the same. Everything I do can be designed better next time, or so it seems. This can be stimulating or frustrating but I do not make for money. I would starve if I tried.
You can take all the techical drawing courses you want, but in order to create something original you need a vision of what you want to accomplish.
On the other hand, Picasso supposedly once said "all art is derivative."
Very well said. I agree with both statements.
I'm no artist and certainly don't have a background in either art or technical drawing. But I do have a little something that I created and which has been very well received. I even have several examples in a local gallery. I had both an apparently unique vision (mental image) and at the same time it was totally derivative in that all I really did was to put a very original spin on someone elses original spin on a 1000 year old concept.
I believe it was the ancient King Solomon who is credited with saying that there is no new thing under the Sun. Which is just another way of saying that virtually everything that can be thought up has been thought up. But that certainly doesn't mean that there aren't innumerable and often very highly creative variation on a theme.
http://www.oregonrainsticks.com/
Kevin,Thanks. I looked at your link, and I would say this is a perfect example of what I am talking about about. I have seen these various aboriginal rain sticks; you took that concept, polished it, turned it in a different direction, and came up with something that is both original and wonderful.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Is there anything that we can't learn from Charlie Rose? Seriously, he's by far the best interviewer I've ever seen. Although I like his PBS show much better than his stint on 60 Minutes. I just can't imagine how he manages to read as much as he clearly has to in order to pull off such masterful interviews. Simply an amazing talent.
But sometimes, I wish he wouldn't answer his own questions. <g>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
LOL! I'll second that sentiment.
Being an avid people-watcher I sometimes get sidetracked watching the interviewee wait for Charlie to finally finish his thought/question before responding. They learn the hardway that if they don't wait he'll just talk over them until he's framed it the way he wants. To his credit, though, he tolerates a certain amount of being talked over too.
All time best interview I've seen in my life: Charie Rose interviewing Kris Kristofferson. Kris has led a VERY interesting life! I never would have guessed in a million years that he'd done some of the things he's done before becoming famous. Hearing him describe the inspiration for Me and Bobby McGee, which Janice Joplin made famous, was riveting to say the least. Friggin' CIA contract pilot flying helicopters in Central America! Kris said that if you listen to the song you can hear how the steady beat of the copter blades formed the basic beat underlying the song. And that was just one tiny part of the amazing interview.
nikki, I had noticed that he did that at times to blow past the obvious(a tv time problem) or to set up a base for a heavy question. I was stunned at the number of very serious people that stepped in when he was sick (in hospital) for no gain of their own. Ya think he's good or well respected?<G> Paddy
Jump in and try, but you might want to read up on some of the principles of design that get translated into "taste." For example, understanding classic proportions (the golden mean, ionic/doric column orders, etc.). Then a review of various styles and their evolution (Georgian, Victorian, Biedermeyer, Arts & Crafts, Bauhaus, post-modernist) to see what each school changes and why.
If you have a good eye, you might be able to make nice designs right from the start.
The next step is to develop an iron stomach for criticism, as others might be able to give you valuable advice to improve your designs, while still others may not like your design at all because their tastes "are different" (meaning they obviously have no taste).
Good luck. Designing and building one's own work is about the most rewarding activity I've ever found.
Pondfish
The master in the shop I apprenticed in was fond of letting all the newbies know that "their taste was in their mouth". It took several years before he would acknowledge that some professional taste had developed in an individual. JL
I have seen some cases where woodworkers build a scaled mockup with laminated corrugated cardboard. Seems like a good way to evaluate a new concept or design.
PMM,
You asked a great question. You got two excellent answers -- from nikkiwood and gmoney. Coming up with new designs for furniture is highly overrated. Go to lots of shows and look at the results of contests. Any fool can design a chair with wings for arms, and antelope legs, and a seat that is at 68 degrees. It is practically impossible to design something which is both highly original, functional and beautiful. By the way, this discussion is not new on Knots. It goes on regularly. If you are interested in "design", just keep scanning Knots for the next year, and you will read lots of comments on design. Everyone has their own ideas, but only mine are correct (laugh out loud). At least, most seem to feel that only their ideas are correct.
I scan Knots every few days. After a year, I began to see some important things. Some of the folks on Knots seem VERY wise to me. That is, for some reason, their ideas seem to click with mine. So when I see their names now, I make sure to read their stuff, regardless of the topic. While the following list is far from "complete", for me, the first that come to mind are: joinerswork (Ray Pine), Sgian Dubh (Richard Jones), Rob Millard, Derek Cohen, mwenz, and Philip Marcou. If you have a question about routers, write to routerman (Pat Warner). For questions on tools and workshop stuff, Boss Crunk and forestgirl have the wisdom. Of course, all of these statements are preceeded by (In My Humble Opinion).
The problem with asking a million people for advice is: How do you decide which of the responses are worth paying attention to. This is not a trivial question. There are many fun folks on Knots who don't post many photos of their work, but they post messages every day. They have lots of words, and they give advice freely, but are they speaking from a base of knowledge and capability?????
How do you know which dentist to go to? How do you know which stockbroker to trust? How do you know which surgeon to let operate on your family member? The answer is that you first gather information about them. Luckily, you can do that on Knots. As time goes on, you will see who is speaking from a basis of "Proven competence". When it comes to "design", you can go to the websites of most of those folks that I listed and see real stuff. But more than that, when I read their writing over the space of a long period of time, it just seems right.
The best words that I have read on the idea of "original design" come from Ray Pine (joinerswork), who in a similar thread in the last few months, described what I repeated above -- it really is difficult to come up with new designs which are beautiful, functional and original. Indeed, there was a wonderful thread on what "original" means. I personally have never seen a piece of furniture that I didn't think was derivative of other pieces that I have seen.
SO, if you apply the criteria to me, that I have suggested be applied to others, you would decide that I am not worth paying attention to. And you would be correct. I am not an accomplished woodworker with well known credentials. There are only a few photos of my work in the Gallery. I have no standing in the woodworking community. (Actually I am the program chairman of the local woodworking guild, but that doesn't count for much.)
So tell me, pmm, what answers about this topic of "design" are you going to believe, and then please tell me why. The reason is that I, too, want to learn.
My personal take on "design" in woodworking, is that it is like "speed" in skiing". As you learn to become proficient as a skier, you shouldn't focus on speed, but on technique, and speed will come with time and practice. I believe in woodworking, that you shouldn't focus on "original design" but on woodworking skills, and getting lots and lots of experience. With time, and with continual modification of existing designs, you will become proficient at making your designs vey good for situation at hand.
In short, remember the words of the great singer, Bobby McFerrin who sang the song, "Dont worry (about design). Be happy."
My apologies to all of the great woodworkers on Knots whose names that I forgot to include in my list of people to listen to. Actually because of the length of this message, I am firmly convinced that no one will read it, so it doesn't make any difference that I left your name off. Besides, why would anyone listen to me anyway. My wife doesn't.
Have fun. Whatever you do, HAVE FUN.
and remember the words.
To err is human.
To anticipate is design.
Good design is the art of predicting how something will be used, and making the design insure that it will be easy and joyful to use.
Mel
PS --Remember not to pay attention to people like me. Pay attention to people who know what they are talking about, and not to people who sound like they know what they are talking about. Pray to a higher entity that you can tell the difference. If you can't, then never have surgery done on yourself.
PPS -- If I put anyone's name on my list of people to pay attention to, and they take offense at my putting it there, I apologize.
PPPS -- Occasionally, someone responds to something that I wrote in a humorous vein and takes offense at what I said. If anyone takes offense at this message, then they missed the part that said "Don't pay attention to this message." Keep humor central in your life and your quality of life will improve. I don't take myself very seriously. You shouldn't either.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Dear Mel:
Thanks for taking the time to give me your insight on design. I don't think your response was too wordy. Lot's of good stuff in there. I appreciate your thoughts. PMM (Patrick Morris, Cape Cod, Massachusetts)
Patrick
Good to meet you. I went to high school in Springfield, which is not exactly close to where you live, but in the same state. I grew up in Windsor Locks, Conn. My brother is still a house builder up there. I enjoy woodworking thoroughly, and I enjoy trading ideas about doing it. I am merely a hobbyist, but have been doing it since 1968. I am pretty eclectic, not married to either powertools or handtools. I like to try lots of things and see what sticks. I read voraciously, to find ideas to try, BUT I don't just take ideas because someone else said them. Knots is the best bargain in woodworking in the entire world. Lotsa great folks and lotsa trading of ideas. Most of my woodwork projects are case pieces, but I do carving and painting and miniatures too. If you look at the Knots Gallery, you'll see "Mel's Miniature Mansion" which I posted last week. I don't rush any projects, and all of my projects go to family and friends at no cost to them. I try to pick each new project so that it contains things that I haven't done before. That means increased time and increased learning. My latest "fling" has been chip carving. I have been doing the normal chip carving that is in all the books, but I have been researching how it was done by the Europeans in past centuries on buildings. BIG chip carving. It took me three months but I translated a book on the subject from German to English because it had relevant info. What about you? What's your take on woodworking?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
P,
If you put your creativity to a given design, wouldn't that be a form of originallity?
I woodcarve and do best when things pop out of my head and I carve what I 'see' in the wood. Unlike you, I don't do so well when trying to follow any particular design to copy; but if I take that design and let my creativity add it's input, then I do well. When asked if this is an original, my reply is "well I was inspired by..."
Hey Mel, I think you do have some good insights to the wonderful world of woodworking.
Let the chips fly, brothers...
CC.
Design is not just about coming up with some brand new. You can definatley design something that is functional and beautiful and has everything. Design is more of a process than anything else. You take your inspiration from some where or someone. You add your on touchs and elements to it. You work out all the problems, if it's not functional then you make it functional.I think to make a blanket statement that there is no orignal design is not correct. And you don't have to be an artsy person to design. Believe me I am so far from artsy, but I have been able to come up with some good designs. Are they original, I don't think so, I have taken inspiration from many places. But the designs are beautiful and functional.Just my 2 cents. Anyone can do anything if they put the mind to it.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Kaleo,
I have often seen your website, and I like your work. I like my work. But all of my work is "derivative". From what I can tell, all of your work that I have seen is also derivative. Your stool looks like a taller version of three tables that I bought in 1968, except that it has a "floating top", which is also derivative. IMHO, there is no other way to go. Each of us makes little changes in the details of a designWe each have our own "take" on art, on design, etc. Mine is essentially that of Bill Hylton which is expressed in his book, "Illustrated Cabinetmaking". Essentially, he takes every piece of furniture that you can think of, and it shows how it is constructed of subassemblies, and then the subassemblies are made up of wood which is joined together. Take a table, or a bookshelf or a hutch, etc, and he shows the subassemblies for each. This is, to me, one of the five best books in woodworking. It takes all of the mystery out of design.Once you have all of the subassemblies in mind, all you have to do is to determine their sizes and the "style" of the trim. That is what you did with your stool, isn't it?Many people are excited by the mysteries of sharpening. Many are excited by owning the "Best" tools. Many are excited about the thing called "design". Personally, I think it is vastly overrated, when it comes to the creative aspects of design. I have spent a career in the field of Human Factors -- making systems that humans can use easily and well. That is why I often use the quote:
"To err is human.
To anticipate is design."
To me, that is the most important part of design, and it is often forgotten, or given short shrift by those who are more interested in the "creative" aspects of design. But you shouldn't feel the need to agree with any of this.I have taken great pains to say where I got the ideas that I have expressed here. In my last post, and in this one, I gave the names of the people from whom I have collected, assimilated and honed these ideas. WHich once again takes us to the idea that in woodworking, everything is derivative, even the ideas expressed in these messages. That doesn't make them less important. I think, hope and believe that you will have a great future in woodwork. To sell your work at a price that will earn you a living, you will have to sell a certain mystique along with it. I think that you know that. I believe that is what drives your beliefs concerning creative design.I have a brother who has an outlook on design which are very close to yours. Your ideas are good and valid. So are mine. Both can coexist peacefully. You and I have traded messages before, and on one occasion, you took something that I said as negative. I believe that was due to our different perspectives on the nature of the design process. I don't take your ideas as negative. I believe that your ideas are a bit more romantic than mine. Actually, none of this verbiage makes any difference at all. What makes a difference is whether people like and buy the pieces that you produce. I sincerely wish you the best of luck in turning out pieces that others will buy. To me, that is the acid test. If others buy your stuff, then you have designed your stuff well. That may be a bit circular, but it is very practical. One of the other people whose ideas that I like is Erhard Woerner, who said "If you don't take control of your own life, others will do it for you." Sometimes people get too taken up with pretty words, and they convince themselves of things which are not congruent with the world as it exists. That's why my views are kind of gritty and hard-nosed.Please remember my words from my last message. You shouldn't pay any attention to me. I am merely a hobbyist with no standing in the woodworking community. I have no "following". I have not proven myself worthy of being followed or believed. I merely describe my ideas to put them out there in the "hopper", and not to convince anyone else of them. My ideas are merely useful for others to read and test their own against. So please do not be bothered by my ideas on the philosophy of woodworking. Let's do something interesting.Let's trade places. Your response tried to convince me that my ideas are not optimal. If I were you, I wouldn't have done that. My belief is that people don't change their ideas much as a results of debate. If I were you, and I was wondering about the validity of the ideas I expressed previously, I would have tested them with the "ACID TEST". You should have asked me to post photos of ten of my best pieces of work, and then judged my ideas not by my words by by my products. Words are cheap. Real output is where the action is. IF you want to see one of my pieces, go to the Knots Gallery and look at "Mel's Miniature Mansion". I would rather discuss your pieces of woodwork and mine than to discuss this philosophy of woodwork.In my last message, I listed six people on Knots who I generally agree with. What about you? Who are the other woodworkers whose philosophy you think is in concert with your own?? That would help me understand you. From the looks of your furniture, I would say that Maloof is one of your favorites. Did I guess correctly? I am definitely not in that school, as one could guess by looking at my output. Have fun, Kaleo. If my writing is disagreeable to you, just ignore it. Be confident of your own ideas. Learn to ignore some people (like myself). However, I ge the idea from things that you say, that you see some things in my messages that cause you to wonder about your own ideas. If that is the case, then I have been of use to you. I hope that is the case. I definitely have profited by my conversations with you, and from seeing your work on your website. You are one heck of a good woodworker.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I love the fact that you used the word romantic in your post. Maybe that is true. I didn't take your post as negative. But maybe I am romantic in that sense.I do believe that there are truely innovative designs that come about very seldomnly. I also believe that we all get ideas and or inspriration from others. I can truly say that my stools I thought of. That doesn't mean that they haven't already been done. But all the greats do that. Mackintosh, F.L. Wright, Krenov, Maloof. None of these guys are or were pioneers with there designs. They all added to something else that they saw out there.You can be the best builder/furnituremaker in the world. HAve all the technical skills there are. But if you can't design and make something that people like to look at or something that draws them in, then it's all for not. Unless you are just building for yourself. Then all you have to please is you.I value your opinon Mel, I always read your post here. So I hope that my thoughts aren't taken in a bad light. They are just opinons we all have them. Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Kaleo,
Glad we are friends, and I hope that we always will be. With many people on Knots, I trade humorous quips. With you, I have shared deeper thoughts. That shows my respect for you. Earlier this year, I believe that I invited you and your family to come to my home when you come back to the U.S., and we'll have a Barbeque. That is a real invitation. I hope that it will actually happen. As I hear more from you, I see that you have a very practical view toward design -- that it is important to design and make things that people will buy. The photos that I have seen on your website are consistent with that philosophy. I believe that you will do well. The trick, of course, is to be able to turn out pieces with enough efficiency that a profit can be turned. I hold professional woodworkers who have done for a career. This is "non-trivial."I sense that you are not only a romantic about woodworking, but that you share my enthusiasm for woodworking. You have a passion for it. Congratulations. Go for it, Kaleo. Plan on dinner in Virginia when you get back here. I'll cook.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The famous architect Frank Ghery does almost all his deign work with card stock, and found materials. He has lots of various shapes of wooden blocks that he can stack and combine. He just cuts out shapes that appeal to him, puts them together in different ways, and does this until he is satisfied that he has found something he really likes.
My point- You don't need to be good with a pencil to be good at design. Often found or easily made objects give you a much clearer picture of what you are doing. Anything that allows you to work quickly and make changes easily.
_______
The next most important thing is reference for human proportion/ dimensions. You need a way to take these models and draw them to a scale that works for humans.
_______
Lastly, look for designs that you love... get as many books and images as you can in order to figure out what you like. Then when you begin your own work, you will have a starting point in mind. Let your imagination take over from there.
One of the first things you must realize it that there is a distinct difference between art and design. They are two different disciplines. Anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken.
Definitions I use for myself:
Art asks questions.
Design provides answers.
The furniture that I design and craft for others is not art. The art that I make is for myself (although some buy it).
Very interesting observation, I like it.
CC.
Mel and all:
I'm glad I asked my question this morning. The replies have been enlightening, even intellectual. I appreciate all of the info.
My take on woodworking: I think what I like most is that it is intellectually stimulating. It is a constant challenge. The learning curve is forever. There are several different ways to address any question which occurs. Every project brings its own challenges and questions. I like several different genres. It could be shaker, contemporary, federal, or several others. But there is one constant. I gravitate to those pieces which are clean, functional, elegant, and unique.
What prompted my question was a desire to design (as opposed to copy, although I use that word loosely) pieces similar to those I see in the gallery. I don't feel that I have a "vision." I don't, at least not yet, have a question (art) which needs to be answered by a "design." So I am bolstered by the references that new designs are often derivatives of earlier designs.
So I will continue to read and build and modify and experiment. If I can create a piece in the future which belongs in the gallery, I will be very pleased. If not, I will not be disappointed, as it is a hobby; a learning experience; a road to travel, not a destination to be reached.
PMM
I live fairly close to you on the south shore. There is a workshop called "Understanding Design through Furniture Classics" at North Bennet Street School in Boston http://www.nbss.org (look under workshops). The basic description is:
"This course will introduce students to basic design principles with an emphasis on learning through the study of furniture classics, the principles and processes of perception. Students will learn about the design principles that underlie furniture classics and other effectively designed objects. The course objectives include helping the student understand their sense of design and how to use it; how to use design principles to achieve the design objectives they set for their projects; and how to evaluate the visual components of a furniture classic or other object. Topics will include: Proportion and Scale; Surface, Color and Texture; Design Objectives and Integrity; and, Form, Relationships, Rhythm and Balance. There will be several short projects to provide "hands-on" experience of these principles. This course is open to all skill levels and is limited to 12 students."
I have also taken a number of courses with Phil Lowe at his Furniture Institute of Massachusetts in Beverly http://www.furnituremakingclasses.com/. On many of the longer courses Phil will take the class to the Peabody Essex museum in Salem and give a guided tour of many of the pieces there. Phil has had the opportunity to work on many of the pieces and gives a great deal of information on how they were designed and constructed. If Phil's course is on building a particular item of furniture He will usually spend the first morning making a full scale drawing and discuss the design options. I have learned a great deal from this approach.
The is a local chapter of the Society of Period Furniture Makers starting up http://www.sapfm.org (look in the Forums under local chapters. Many of the members are vary knowledgeable and the meeting are proving to be interesting.
"all art is derivative." is very true. Creativity can be taught to some extent. You certainly don't need to get hung up on the technical drawing aspect. That would be more of a hindrance in my opinion. Reading the woodworking magazines is probably the worst thing you could do. Listen to eclectic music. Read design magazines like Metropolis, Interior Design, Sculpture, Ceramics, go to museums, galleries. Looking at non-wood furniture can be helpful. Combining styles in new ways is a simple way to start. Look at stuff at the http://www.guild.com http://www.furnituresociety.org Studying Art History is a good thing to see how it all fits together . One aspect of the study of Art history is the time line. Social, political, technology, music and more affect the making of art and furniture would be a subclass of that. Art Deco was about industrialization, production with machines (there were exceptions of course), streamlining, new materials, etc. Modern trends are going green, recycling, etc.
I'm much the opposite. I took woodworking in Junior High, but never fell in love with it. I went to college to be an Architect, but noticed some people up there designing and building furniture, and winning awards for their designs. I switched into Interior Architecture, won a few furniture design awards myself, and now teach furniture design to Interior Architecture students.
I've never built anything from someone else's plans. I got, and my students all get, a broad basic education in design, art, and architecture. It certainly helps them to at least KNOW the vocabulary of words that designers use. Those words help put the mind into a different mode of thinking. It almost gets harder the more you know.
Furniture design needs an understanding of structure, material properties, joint/connection-making, ergonomics, problem identification and problem solving. You can easily make a simple table. It's harder though, to make it sturdy, reachable, useful, durable, appropriate, safe, condensation ring proof, vacuum underable, and still stylish. Well designed, it might be THE solution to perfectly satisfy all those considerations.
The best way to learn, though, is to take a stab at it. If you've got a scanner, scan your ideas/sketches and post them here with a description. I'm sure the designers among us will be delighted to prod you along.
4D - or do you prefer Thinker?Your post is great! I have considered all of the criteria you suggest in my design process -
EXCEPT "vacuum underable". I will be sure to add that to my list.Frosty
My view is that you can't design great furniture without an art background. The contrary is like saying you want to work wood without learning to use woodworking tools. None of us would advocate such a position, but yet with art, you get the "just jump in" advice. In my humble, that really isn't a plan for success.
If this is something that interests you, a goal you have, then I think its worthwhile to pursue it properly, not haphazardly. You don't have to be Rembrandt.
I recommend reading a few art books on furniture. What you need to know is what comprised previous designs. I find earlier work to be more sophisticated artistically. There's more iconography, more references to other things, and a dynamic quality. Baroque architecture and furniture for example, was designed to produce interesting light dark contrasts, shadows that changed as the light changed revealing different aspects of the design. You may not like baroque, but that's a level of design beyond the mere plan view that you can explore.
That done, I think a basic drawing class, preferably anatomy, would be a good idea. Anatomy has a level of accountability rarely seen in other artistic endeavors. For that reason alone, its worth trying. But aside from that, it also deals with the use of proportion rules that we see so often used in furniture. Even if you end up with a stick figure, the first day of the first class, you put lines on the paper where the head goes, where the knee caps lie. They'll be right or they'll be wrong, but the process is similar in desiging furniture.
While I write about woodworking and about philosophical approaches, I believe my success as a furniture maker has stemmed 100% from my design work. When you submit your work to be critiqued, or to get into a show, they don't see your surface work or dovetail joinery. They're not interested in whether you used an air nailer or not. They, like the customers, see only the design. When I go to a show, the only people interested in my joinery are woodworkers and they aren't buying.
Adam
You wrote: "When you submit your work to be critiqued, or to get into a show, they don't see your surface work or dovetail joinery. They're not interested in whether you used an air nailer or not. They, like the customers, see only the design."An interesting statement... please tell me why you are excluding visual methods of joinery (air nails would certainly show, as do dovetails) and surface work (hey, gotta see that...it's right on the outside) from design.
I'm not excluding anything.
Juried shows ask for slides or jpegs. You need a photo of a full piece. Generally, that photo won't show a nail head, or even if you send that resolultion, the judges won't zoom in to see it. Now you can, (and I have) sumbit pics of details. But you run the risk that they may not like that one piece, and as you are usually limited to 5 slides, you lessen your chances.
Some folks use joinery as decorative elements. So you could say that a judge might like your piece because of the dovetails for example. I think that's what you're thinking. But the judges probably won't see the gap in the third pin on the right. But they will instantly recognize a top heavy design, an ugly rectangle etc.
The customers also don't seem to see details either. Woodworkers do, however. And that's the easiest way to tell customers from woodworkers. They run their fingers over your mistakes and look closely at your dovetails!
I like to see woodworkers at shows and I'm proud when I get their nods of approval. That means a lot to me. But please remember that it can cost me several thousand dollars to show up at a show, so please be discreet and yield to the folks who don't see the mistakes! Break out the tape measures and digital cameras after those folks leave and its just "us" again!
Adam
Do you have any suggestions of good "art books on furniture"?
I am very pleased at the level of discourse exhibited throughout this discussion. I orignally asked a question which has been bothering me for sometime. Simply put, it is "can a non-artistic person create original designs." My personal belief is that the answer is "no." It is my belief that some people have "vision"; they think in the abstract; and that other people do not. Much as people have different strengths and weaknesses. That does not mean that I will not try, as many of you have encouraged. The beauty of Knots, and this thread, is the level of discussion and the ideas which have been put forth. I hope it continues, as it will enlighten all who participate. PMM
Well...I guess it depends on what you're after. I'd start in your local public library and see what grabs you. For analysis of 18th c furniture, which I'm particularly interested in try;Jeff Greene's fabulous book "american furniture of the 18th century". I can't say enough good things about this book.Check out the Chipstone journals.Winterthur has published many good furniture books based on DuPont's collections, but these are always expensive, thus my recommendation about the libray.I have Horner's "Blue book" and Nutting's "furniture treasury". These are like reference books and have very little analysis, but it can be helpful just to see lots of examples. I have a couple books you wouldn't think of as helpful from Williamsburg including "Decorating with style" and "Furnishing colonial williamsburg's house". I found the latter very interesting.I'd just like to add one other thing for those who are inclined to think this subject a yawner: There are political/sociological aspects to furniture design which can be interesting. Shaker furniture for example is a manifestation of their world view. They were deconstructing furniture in the same way they were deconstructing society. It wasn't an esthetic they were moving toward, but an esthetic they were moving away from. There are certainly links between danish modern and shaker and Arts and Crafts and american socialism. In some respects, that's what makes this furniture "fine art". Its so much more than just a decorative art. That said, even IKEA furniture has sociological messages, intentionally included or not. I think it fun to think about stuff like this.In my case, the persian arches scrolled into William and Mary cases made a strong fashion statement, but they also spoke to the power of the British Empire which traded with far away, and exotic lands. In those days, stuff from China was really special. Today you get stuff from China free with a McDonald's happy meal!Adam
A great book for inspiration is 1000 chairs. I can't remember who it is by, but it is a great book to have in your library. With that said I know have to go out a get it for my library.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Adam,
You believe that to be a good furniture designer, you need a background in art. Which furniture designers had a background in art? I guess that first of all, I'd like to know who you think was a good furniture designer. I ask these questions because I'd like to learn. You have a wealth of background. My take on design is different than yours. I agree with your comments on people who buy are not interested in the internal joinery. So one has to determine what one wants to do. One could seek to be a great designer "in one's own mind", and believe that one's designs are great regardless of whether the contest judges agree, or whether the potential buyers agree. This is the "hungry artist of his own choosing" approach. One could seek to make furniture to sell to high end consumers. The main prerequisite here is "knowing one's customers", and NOT being a good artist. Indeed, most people want things that are similar to things that they have seen. This is how the haute couture clothing system works. When the early cabinetmakers in America did their work, they were forced to develop furniture in the style that their customers saw in Europe. Most "artistic" musicians I know are very frustrated by the fact that when they play for the customers, the customers don't want the stuff they are developing. The customers want the songs that they know and like. I would venture to say that the most successful furniture designer group today is IKEA. They are giving a lot of people what they want. One can look in the FWW design books and see lots of stuff that is "far out" in terms of design, but probably won't sell. These are deep questions. You look to the judges at the furniture contests as the arbiters of design goodness. This are dangerous grounds. If you have 25 contestants, I can bring in three sets of five judges, and have them independently judge the 25. If I pick the judges right, there will be no correlation in their picks. It is the people who pick the judges who are, to a large degree, picking the winners. Judges are biased towards what they like, and after a short while, that is easy to "reverse engineer". Kids do this with their teachers during the first week of school each year. Styles are the important thing. In science, we call them "paradigms". These are hard things to change. People get stuck in paradigms. Often someone who comes up with something that sells, keeps designing minor tweaks to that design. Are these great designers, or have they just come up with their own schtick?I really like the ideas of Ray Pine on designing. He is a very successful furniture maker, and most of his pieces are "one of". So he must be a good "designer". But he makes period pieces. So is he a designer or a copier. Chippendale started a paradigm, but he got most of his ideas from the Chinese and the Romans and others. My belief is that there has never been an original design for a piece of furniture. The first piece of furniture was probably a chair, which was copied from a fallen tree that someone sat on. IMHO, All furniture designs are derivative. However, I don't think that is important. There are only two things that are important:
1) that the furniture maker be happy.
2) that the furniture maker be able to generate sufficient income to remain happy.My belief is that a prospective furniture maker would be better served by taking business courses and learning the art of merchandising than by studying art. I believe that a good woodworker would be well served by studying the designs of the past, just like architects study the architecture of the past. But art and romance don't put bread on the table -- Selling stuff puts bread on the table. Therefore, tautologically, a woodworker who sells stuff is a good designer, where
"good" is the judgment, not of contest judges, but of customers. This woodworking philosophy is fun stuff, isn't it. You can tell what I think of contest judges and art critics. The buying public is the best judge of good design. Three cheers for IKEA.Which brings me to a very bad position. I have argued something that I thought I believed, but when I come to a logical conclusion from my premises, I don't like where I have ended. I concede the success of IKEA, but I am not wild about their designs. So if the final arbiters of "good design" are not the contest judges and not the buying public, and not the starving woodworker who believe he has great designs, WHO IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF GOOD DESIGN? If my mother were still alive, she would tell you that she is. I am beginning to believe that the final arbiters are the gods, who we will only get to talk to after we pass to the next world. I guess I'll have to wait to find out if my designs are any good. I hope it is a long wait.Have fun.
Don't take this philosophy stuff too seriously.
Seriously, I really would like to know who you think some of the great designers were and are, and which of them had art training.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel mi amico,
I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
I think the OP wants to design his own furniture. What's your advice to him? Do what he likes? Do what sells? I disagree these are the only choices. Obviously he could take these paths, but that's not what he asked.
The greatest art work of the world has several specific, identifiable features in common. Do you know what they are? Most engineers and woodworkers I know don't. My guess is that you would "know it if you saw it". So the trick (and my advice) is simple: Learn what makes great art great and then choose to use these principles or not as you see fit. Otherwise, you must guess and hope you get lucky. Am I over simplifying?
Oh, and I think he can do it. This isn't something only for an elite few. He can read a little, draw a little, and really get it. My guess is, he'd see a big change in his furniture and his world straight away. But beware- once we learn to look critically, we may not like the things we used to like. So its an enlightenment, but enlightenment is not always positive. Ignorance can be blissful, and I think to some extent this is your point; Do what pleases you and be happy. Its an important point to be made and you've made it well here and elsewhere. My advice here is the yang to your yin. No need to reconcile it.
Adam
P.S. Though I've gotten very little response from it, (and obviously no readers here) my article published earlier this year on this subject, outlined specific guidelines cabinetmakers can follow to make beautiful furniture in any style. I knew it would be a stretch in any ww magazine, and I'm thankful it was even accepted. But I must admit to being a little disapponted it was not as well received as I had hoped. Ditto the sections on this subject on my blog.
Edited 3/28/2007 1:47 pm ET by AdamCherubini
If you want to send me links (article and blog) on your pieces on design, I will be more than happy to give you some feedback. FWW has printed several pieces on design from Graham Blackburn, and I've not found them all that useful. But they could have been, if his editor had down a better job of holding his feet to the fire. That is, there were just too many things GB glossed over without adequate explanation. I just looked in the FWW archives, and could not find your article; so, I assume you wrote it for some other mag. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Adam and Mel, I have enjoyed reading your and other insights. They are very good, but I am not sure that you have given whomever started this thread a key to the door of enlightenment. I am not sure that I can either, because I am not sure where my creativity comes from. I remember when I first started realizing that I had the ability to conceive new ideas, it came after first putting in a lot of effort trying to make the lines work by taking works that someone else had done, and altering them enough to make them mine. After a lot of hard work, I usually found that what I was searching for came to me when I was relaxed and not trying to make it happen. Many times just before dropping off to sleep.At first I would jump up to find a pencil and pad, but the image would often disappear before I could find them, and get the idea down, and no matter how hard I tried, I just could not get them back. Seems I read somewhere this is the Gestalt syndrome. Later I learned that when I was in that special zone, that I can see all of the details of these images from any viewing angle, even all of the joinery details, as long as I didn't change any aspect of my physiology, I could really just hang out in this cosmic-library, as I fondly like to think of it. The longer I could stay tuned in, the more details that I could then jot down, and retain, long enough to execute the design.Somehow it does not fell like I am designing the work, but more like I am channeling someone, or ones, and I just happen to have the where-with-all to bring them to light so everyone else can see them. Of course, my friends and clients give me credit for everything, and I let them, because it makes them feel good about it. HaAs time goes by, and I look back, I can see phases that I have gone through where there was a body of work scattered all around here in a lot of different homes, that could be put together as one body of work. I hear from people all of the time that they saw a piece of my work somewhere that they knew it would be mine before asking, so this brings back that I remember taking elements from one work and dusting them off, and tweaking them to use in new ways. I have never liked doing the same thing twice. There is always another way to clean up a design and give it a fresh look. Perfection is something to strive for, but I am not sure it can be achieved. You have to know when to say when.
I agree. In terms of inspiration, there's no way to evoke that. And our OP either has it or doesn't. But my sense is that its always helpful to develop skill. That way, if he wakes up thinking his next coffee table is an undersea world, he can either draw it, or manage the design elements into pleasing artistic elements. Adam
Just to add in some points already mentioned here:Woodworking is a hobby of mine. Software development is my profession.
It's basically the same thing. I have to come up with a design and create that design to a final product which is a program, that's both practical AND pleasing to the eye, i.e. user friendly.In wood working it's the same. Come up with a design of a table, figure out the wood movement, stability issues etc then come up with something practcical and pleasing.What I've found out over the years in both fields is this: I HAVE NO DESIGN TALENT.In my profession, what I do is talk to people who have software that does not work for them, for whatever reason. Then I find out what NOT to do. From that I can gather what to do. And this works for both practical and aesthetic purposes. The rest basically would be some things here and there that is of your personal taste.
I've created many beta versions of software before I release a final version. In wood working, it's a bit too expensive for that.
What I normally do there is create something out of mdf then if it looks good use hardwood (the mdf pieces are reused).
But at the end of the day, it's my hobby so I'm not too concered with what people say or think. In my software profession it's different. I have to care what they say. So I guess it depends on what you do it for. But you might start by looking at what NOT to do.I'm not sure if I've confused the issue or help, but I'm really trying to help
Hi Omar,My wish for you and for all here is that you'll recognize that making really great looking furniture isn't a matter of having innate artistic ability, but rather a fairly simple skill you can develop. I think its a skill worth some considerable effort since it greatly effoects how our woodwork is received.Adam
I hesitate to jump in with all of the professionals - but, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Which in this case can be criticism, both constructive and denigrating.My design process starts with a desire to create something beautiful - and functinal. In the case of the item pictured below I saw a bridge in Japan that had a WOW effect on me. The end result is an amalgam of the bridge design, the edge tratment of a table by Wayne Marcou (I have talked with him about his table) and my own ideas about visual appeal and structural integrity. In short, design to me, is a derivative of many inputs.Frosty
Keith,
Nice message. Well written. Well thought out. It is isomorphic with my take on the process of design. Like you, I look at existing stuff, and I look at the requirements for the new piece. I sketch and put the sketches in a folder. I check with my wife on different ideas (This is the most important step). I find that I can collect more great ideas than I can generate. To me "a new design" is a useless idea and a fiction. To me, "a good design" is what I am after. It is good when it fits my requirements, and it feels right. That happens after going off and thinking about other things. You hit that nail on the head.You used the word, Gestalt. Great word, and it captures the essence of the thought. Although I am a psychologist, I haven't used the term "Gestalt" for too long. It's time to put it back into use. I like the term "weltanschauung". The weltanschauung you described on the process of design is, to me, the only way to go. Of course, you could go that way, but talk another way, and use artsy terms. There are many reasons to do that. One is to impress your friends. Another is to impress yourself. A third is to befuddle customers. Always remember the first law of consumer psychology: A person who is confused is easy to lead." Even the military softens up a beachhead before coming in with the troops. Personally, I have eschewed all of the artsy terms.. My brother is an artist. I don't call him that. I call him an oil painter. To me, there is one thing he enjoys doing more than oil painting -- that is, talking in vague, abstract terms about the meaning of beauty, art and the process of creativity. He is also very down on people who don't agree with him. He hasn't sold much. He has no interest in what the unwashed customer wants. His goal is to impress the arbiters of the local art community. He enters contests and feels good if he wins. Given your use of terminology, I sense that you may have read about the fall of introspection as a valid tool in psychology. To me, that is what folks do when they talk about art and the process of design. They kind of mis-remember what they actually did in designing a piece. Who is to say they are wrong? As long as they are happy, what else matters? You have written the best description of the "REAL" design process that people actually use than I have ever seen before. Have fun. Thanks for the response.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Thanks for that fine compliment, I don't think I have ever had one better. And thanks for the new word. I hope I can learn to say it. I looked it up, but it is a mouth-full for a souther boy.Your mention of your BIL reminded me of the last show that the former director of the art center here curated before he retired. It featured minimalist art. As I walked through the show during the reception, most were various shades of white canvas. sometime I could detect a slight shade change on half of the canvas, but each had a couple of paragraphs of commentary written by some famous learned art advocate. I walked around and tried to read most of them, and look at the plank canvas and tried to make out what I was missing.After leaving the show, I had the thought that If woodwork, or furniture making were like that, there would be no need to go beyond surfacing the board, or maybe trying to just paint it to look like a really highly finished mdf panel. Ha,Someone back a ways suggested a book about 1000 chairs. I picked that book up at B&N about a month ago for under $10, thinking it might be a useful reference if I wanted to give another shot at seating sometime. It was printed in germany, and does not have many American chair-makers. No Maloof for example. However I still think it can be useful for anyone looking to fit their own lines between the lines of our predecessors. One does need to know what is out there to keep from re-inventing the wheel.I did meant to mention to the OP that at this late point in time of furniture development, it is extremely hard to design anything new, given the constraints of good ergonomic factors that fit the average human form, using flat lumber, and only slight curves. There has been SO much already done, and tweaking proportions and joinery may not bring much attention to your work, so I would suggest that you try thinking in terms of curves.I find that keeping a block of clay around is handy for finding new shapes that are really hard to draw for most people. You can just keep pushing things around until you are liking what you see, then start refining that. If you work to scale, you can even pick your lines from it for your patterns.Which brings me around to mentioning that I will be teaching an advanced woodworking class the week of June 11 in Eureka Springs Ar. It will be on how to start with green wood, and roughing out whole panels into bulging curves, like turning a big platter or something weird on the lathe, then setting them aside to cure like one would a turning, or lumber, then building things, / the joinery with those parts.
I don't recall, is there a place to announce this class on this forum?Back to answering your question, have read about the fall of introspection. No, I was speaking from my experience. but < They kind of misremember what they actually did in designing a piece > I am very aware that we collectively shore one-another up more than we will usually admit.
Keith,
I can tell from your writing that we are kindred spirits. It is very good to make your acquaintance. I wish I could get down south and take your upcoming class on using green wood. I have never done that. Good luck with the class. I highly recommend that you read the message that joinerswork (Ray Pine) posted to this thread earlier today. He is one of the most practical, most down to Earth, top-end furniture maker in the business. He did a more thorough explanation of his take on design than he had done in the past. Ray is always worth paying attention to.You asked if Knots has a place to advertise upcoming classes, like yours. The answer is that I don't know. I haven't seen any. In general, I don't believe they like folks to use this for advertising, but I haven't read anything. Here is a plan. You can easily call FWW by getting on customer service (see the top of the page) and getting their phone number. I have called on two or three occasions, and they are great folks to work with. Ask them, and you'll get the official answer in seconds.Let's keep in touch. And if you and your family ever get up to Washington, DC area, just let me know, and you are all invited over to my place for a cook out and a chance to swap some woodworking lies.Have fun, and try to use the term "weltanschauung" at least once a week. :-) I like your ideas on art.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The way around this (advertising on Knots) is to get Keith to send you the info (and a link), and then you mention it every time in a post when you have have a chance. Historically, they seem only to get upset when the party in question advertises his/her own products/services. I think Pat Warner gets away with it, partly because he is a Taunton author, but mainly because he continually directs people to his web site without flaunting it.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood,
I suppose that you are right about how to get around the ban on advertising. But I am not sure that it is worth the risk. Here is what I mean. I used to read the classified advertising in the Washington Pose. No more. Too much of it is not what it purports to me. Many of the ads are for companies, which are made to sound like they are for individuals to sell items. I folks started advertising in the way you suggested, it would work. But if too many did it, Knots would become too cluttered with stuff that I'd rather not have around. One person doing it would be no problem. It only becomes a problem if it becomes pervasive.Here is another suggestion. I suggested about a year ago that KNots have a folder for New Woodworkers because we seemed to be answering the same questions over and over, and because the newbies were having a hard time searching for answers. My heart was in the right place. Forestgirl argued against it. Knots instituted the New Woodworkers folder. It hasn't been used much. So why not take the New Woodworker folder, and turn it into a place that members of Knots could advertise when they going to give a course, or make a new tool or something. I haven't thought it through. I don't know if it would work. But at least it would be exactly what it purported to be. That appeals to me.Thank you very much for the suggestion. You sound like a very practical guy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't the Classifieds be the appropriate place?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Wow! I could never have put your description of how you go about conceiving an idea into words the way you did. I haven't designed furniture for long, but I have designed many other things and what you described is spot on for me!
Thanks, It is so nice of you to say so. It is a state of mind that I think most people would say that you could not train or instruct some people to ever reach. However, it may be that we are all born with the ability to think creatively, but something about the way we are raised and schooled trains the trait out of us. It takes some practice and understanding of your thought processes and physiology to be able to just drop into that state of reverie at will anytime.OK, I hope I don't sound like I am trying to set myself up as the knots guru of creativity, I just don't live with a TV, because I find it too distracting, which gives me more time to spend in my own thoughts than most others that walk upright. HaAll right, keep those dreams flowing, and bring the best of them to life for the rest of the world to see. This window into your dreams, is like a window into your soul. Thanks again, and good luck K
"It takes some practice and understanding of your thought processes and physiology to be able to just drop into that state of reverie at will anytime."I don't think that I can do this (yet!). I have to sort of prime-the-pump before I get to those moments of surreal vision where it feels more like I'm channeling someone else's idea than creating my own.Like I said, I have very little experience designing furniture, however, it seems that the design process works for many types of projects. If it helps anyone else struggling to get to to the design state-of-mind, I'll attempt to step through my approach.For example, my next large project will probably be a sideboard for my kitchen. I already have an idea of dimensions, material, and function. I would call this pre-design. I also have a folder where I keep pictures of pieces that have some feature I find appealing. I have added pictures of sideboards recently. When I'm ready to really start the design process, I will sit down using graph paper (or perhaps download Sketchup!) and make an earnest attempt to draw my perfect sideboard with all of the pre-design information and design details I have been thinking about. I might incorporate a certain leg shape that I have found appealing. I will draw the doors and drawers with an attempt to keep the proportions pleasing.Only now does the design process start. I will take another piece of graph paper, lay it over the first drawing, trace over the parts that appeal, and start tweaking the rest of the design. I might change the leg a little, change the proportions, lengthen one element, add another. I'll do this over and over. Again, I would guess that a program like sketchup would make this process easier.During this time, usually over the course of a week, I will go back and continue to tweak the design. It's after going through this process that I get to that "state of reverie" that you talked about. And, like you said, I don't rush to record what I have just thought of. I immerse myself in the experience and try to observe with my minds-eye any and all of the details that my mind seems to be exploring. Then, I go back and sketch some more. Sometimes I have to completely scratch everything and start back with the basics of pre-design, because what I've come up with is just too way out there!I have to admit that sometimes I begin a project without completely designing every detail. Usually this is lack of self-discipline, although sometimes I feel like I can't make some decisions until I can see how other parts look. At times I have regretted not pursuing the design process to completion first, because I might have made a different decision here or there. On the other hand, I've come up with better decisions from this approach too.This is the process I used to make a bathroom vanity I posted recently. After designing the two side cabinets first, I built them. Then I worked on the apron between the two. Overall, I'm happy with how it turned out. However, I like the cabinet feet best. Of all of the designs I came up with for the apron, I liked what I chose the best, but somehow, it's not a winner. I'm still hoping for inspiration because it's not too late for me to remake that one element.Such are the thrills and risks of designing my own projects!
handymom, You were being too generous with your compliment to me about not being able to describe the process. Nice.You threw me a curve ball when you started with that priming the pump remark. I thought you were going to say that you took a little sip of something. Might not hurt.Since I suspect you have kids and spouse, there may be a few opportunities for disruption of the process where you live. So you may have a talk with the others and ask them if, or when they see you with that look of "the lights are on, but nobody is home". that they give you time without disruption, if they would be so gracious.
I don't know how to communicate that request to my shop-dog Burl. He likes to come up and lick my hand. Yup, your still alive, wouldn't you like to pet me since your not doing anything? I like to think of getting into, and staying in that state of reverie as being on a tight-rope. It doesn't take much to knock you off of it. Just when you get to the best part that you are wanting to get down, a simple Hey Mom, or Honey would you? Or Are you alright? What are you thinking? Having those disruptions, for me can make the image just go poof, and disappear before the minds eye.On the other hand, being too comfortable, then falling off into sleep can hit the erase button too. It will be like most of your dreams, just a faint memory.
I could describe step-by-step procedures all day, but the "state of reverie" you describe was what impressed me!... and a good glass of wine never hurt anyone's creative juices!
From my own experience the best way to come up with original designs is to begin by thinking about the project. What is the function of the work? What materials will be used? What type of construction will you use (solid wood, laminations, bending, veneer). Who will be using it? Where will it be used? How will it relate to its user and environment? You can add as many of these questions as needed. The more questions you tackle the more ‘complete’ your design will be. The act of working through these questions will give you a better understanding of what you are working towards and give you some ideas to start from. You will also need an understanding of the ergonomics involved for the particular object.
Once you have done that you can then move to sketching your ideas. Sketch out as many ideas as you want and vary each idea with different elements and proportions. Combine elements and proportions from each idea if you like them. From this process you will come up with a rough design.
Next, build a model(s). All the sketching in the world is no replacement for an actual 3-D model of the design. Use whatever medium you want. It’s best to try to use mediums that emulate the look of the materials you plan to use. This is where you will find out if the proportioning and look of your design is visually appealing. It also helps you address any problems that might occur from the joinery you plan to use.
From that point you can alter the model until it meets your expectations. Once you are content with your design you can make a final drawing of it. The proportions in the model are what are most important. Using the proportions and ergonomics you can make a full scale drawing of the project.
All that is left is to build it.
If you have no drafting knowledge then a class on it or CAD will be very helpful in the process of making the full scale drawing. It will be no help at all in the process of forming a design.
Having a large ‘vocabulary’ of design elements is the most useful knowledge you can have when going through the creative process. I am no expert on this matter but I define the term ‘vocabulary’ in the visual, not dictionary, sense. To acquire this kind of vocabulary all you have to do is look at shapes, textures, proportion, colors etc of both natural and man-made objects. Exploring nature, libraries and museums will provide you with a solid base from which to draw ideas and inspiration.
F. Wier
Here's a good starting point that you can begin at right now. It's an opportunity just sitting there. Over at Lumber Jocks, I am not a member, they are having a contest with parameters that start at a Green and Green side table.
You can link over from the FWW Editors page up blogs.
It's perfect, not alot of materials, and if you look at the starting dimensions, look at the piece as if in a Bedroom Suit, it would be a Nightstand, if a Living Room casegood piece it is equivalent to an End Table.
Start there with your own interpretation, get juiced to send in a photo of it.
Neil
My video blog......... Episode 4
http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html]
Think of how you respond to something, say an end table. Of any end table we might all love it's look. We might all hate it's look. Half of us may hate it while half of us may love it. If all you can say about it is that you love it or hate it or have no opinion, then in my opinion it's not been well designed.
Well-designed things have a better story. "I hate the overall look, but am curious where the profile on the legs came from." "Is there a reason it's got five legs?" "I wonder how the designer came up with that texture?" "At least the craftsmanship is high. Just look at the detail in the corners, the articulation of the parts!" "The undercut on the top edge does make the overall look much lighter." "That's very clever how the drawer disappears flush into the side rail." "There's something very sweet about the overall porportion!"
When true creative thought is put into a design, that creativity should express somehow in the final product. Those who see it will recognize that "added value". While there will still be some that hate the thing, even they will have to admit it's a unique and "interesting" piece. The story behind the design keeps them looking at it longer, and the longer they look at anything the more they'll warm up to it.
Design is 4th dimension thinking. The 4th dimension is time. Does your piece have momentary static appeal, or does it continue to impress or inform the user over time?
pm,
You write that you can build from a set of plans. That is a "design" (from the Latin, de+ signere, to mark, mark out). Much has been written here about coming up with a concept, as if that were the same thing as designing. To me, a concept is not a design, but only the first step in developing a design. From whence comes a concept? It may be the attempt to fill a need. "I have this funny corner, between the fireplace, and the stairs. A table would look good there, but nothing I've seen will fit." The need may be a need for expression of one's personal taste. Another poster wrote of having a "vision in a dream", the way Coleridge conceived his "Kubla Khan". Unfortunately, Coleridge's vision faded before he could put it all on paper--alas, the design of the stately pleasure-dome was lost.
Although I make no claim to be a creator of original designs, (I build mostly reproductions,) I believe that there are several steps that need take place in the design process. The concept, Coleridge's vision, if you will, can be as simple as "she wants to be 24 long, she wants to be 16 wide, she wants to be 28 high"-- instructions on building a simple table, given to me while stretching a tape, by a former boss; with other variables inferred, implied, or otherwise understood. The design came into existance when the dimensions were combined with those other elements that made the piece "one of our nightstands". Although it wasn't formally drawn on paper, it was as clear in my mind as if it were: tapered legs, mortise and tenon joinery, one dovetailed drawer, from 3/4 stock, except the 1 1/2" legs. I bet you see it now, too. A design for a piece never before built, whether original or not is open to debate, or semantics.
Now can you be creative? That is, originate a concept that no-one ever has had before? Placing such demands on one's self invites an excursion into the fields of novelty for its own sake. Although Al Yankovich writes novel songs, I doubt that his music's originality will be regarded in the same way as Mozart's creations, 100 yrs from now. Much of today's "art furniture" deserves to be in the same category as Wierd Al's music (novel, not too serious), in my opinion. Can the process be learned, forced, developed, or must we wait for inspiration? I do not know.
Having a concept, do you have the ability to convert that vision from the abstract into a three dimensional object? Are you able (is it even possible?) to choose scale, proportion, joinery, orient grain direction for optimal strength, choose curves for comfort? Can it be built by mortals? Once built, will the expression of your vision fall apart, self-destruct, or sit uselessly by, after a few years? All these questons must be answered, for one to have a successful design, imo. Can you do it? The answer to that is, as a mentor once said to me, "Ya won't learn any younger!" You may learn the answer is no, maybe yes, maybe sort of, sometimes.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
Excellent writeup.
It almost sounds as though you do woodworking for a living.
The problem with what you say is that while is rings 100% true, it is not nearly as interesting or romantic as it would be if you threw in some words from art and architecture. (form, function, golden rectangle, empty space, visualization, balance, etc.) I recommend you set up a sequence of one week workshops in the hills of western Virginia, at the cost of $5000 a week, including room and board and drawing supplies. Also, each student gets a free copy of "Drawing on the left side of the brain". After giving the workshop a few times, you could have yourself videotaped, and then offer a videotape set of the course for the same price that Nora Hall charges for her set on woodcarving. Finally, for those who don't have the time, but want to learn the fine art of design in one of your workshops, we could put together a special "Learn Design While You Sleep" series, with a 50% money back guarantee. Then, there will be "Ray's Woodworking Workshops and Cruise Line" version which takes place on month-long voyages to the Islands, Europe, and elsewhere. You know, Ray, I believe there is real money to be made in the teaching of Design to Woodworkers. Let me know if you are ready to move out on this, and become the Bill Gates of woodworking. All I want is the food concession. Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Snort.
Maybe someday. If it happens, the right of first refusal for the food concession is yours.
Ray
Thank you Mel, Adam, and all the rest. I began this thread with the simple question: "do you need artistic talent/vision to design orignal furniture.?" I hoped to stimulate discussion about design and to determine the answer to my question, if in fact there is one.
So there I am this morning sitting in Court (I am a trial attorney in my real life) waiting to be called to argue my case of the day. I have done this for many years and can "design" and articulate a case in my sleep. But am I thinking about my case? Noooo. What am I doing? I am sketching furniture. And what is my poor head doing? It is trying to balance all of the terms and ideas which have been volunteered thoughout this discussion. The attorney seated next to me is busy flipping through his file, doing what lawyers do. He glances to the right to see his colleague (me) scaling legs and drawers and tabletops. Is my mind on my case? Of course not. I care only about furniture. (If you are my client reading this, do not be alarmed. Your case is well prepared and I know exactly what I am going to say and do in any given circumstance.)
So thanks all. Thanks for the encouragement. Thanks for the confusion. Thanks for the input. I will put it all to work and figure something out. One of the things that lawyers do is to take large amounts of information, filter out the chaff, and attempt to make logical sense of that which remains. I can recall being in law school and reducing hundreds of pages of cases to two sheets of paper, which contained the essence of the information from all of those cases. I would then memorize the 2 pages and apply those to the final test of the semester.
Keep up the input. I think the discussion is extremely interesting and informative, even if distracting from my primary source of income. But so what. If my clients and the judge can't take a joke, is that my problem?
Also, as an aside. Has anyone else noticed how well written the various posts are? Who said that woodworkers are uneducated louses?
Patrick Morris
Edited 3/29/2007 7:03 pm ET by pmmatty
pm,
There are two books you may find interesting. Both by David Pye, they are, The Nature and Aesthetics of Design, and The Nature and Art of Workmanship. They may give you some insight into the design process, and how it related to the made object.
Ray Pine
thanks Ray: I will check them out. PMM
In my past life as a musician, a bass player I used to work with had a saying that stuck with me. He used to say "mediocrity borrows-genius steals!" What he meant was that the best songs were heavily inspired by listening to others' music.
So many who consider themselves original or artists absolutely hate having their work compared to others or admitting that they have been inspired by others work, but the reality is that we are all inspired by work we admire and have been exposed to.
When I recently met a very famous woodworker and toured his shop for several hours, he resisted admitting to being influenced by any woodworking styles at all as if by doing so would take away from his own originality. The fact is though that by looking at his work, one could see unless they were blind that he was incorporating influences from some very specific schools of furniture in his style. That isn't a bad thing. We all have to get our foundation from somewhere. When it comes down to it, what makes his work original is his sense of proportion, his technique, his end result, and the overall quality of his work. No one began in a vacuum except maybe a caveman who figured out how to lock a couple sticks together to form something to sit on...
I think I enjoy the process of learning how to design as much as I enjoy actually woodworking. Personally, I really struggled trying to draw and sketch ideas because I don't have a background in art or drafting. A couple years ago, after trying various cad programs, I found sketchup and after a long learning curve I have gotten fairly good at using the software to work out proportions as well as using it to determine calculations instead of using math. I've built numerous projects including built ins', exterior arched raised panel doors, entertainment centers, unique shop jigs and so on by using it to brainstorm and work out dimensions. Now that the program is a free download from Google, I highly recommend it. You will be frustrated for a while as you learn to navigate and use the program, but stick with it. One tip is to use a 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel. I find it makes using the program a lot more friendly.
"No piece of furniture designed after 1830 is worth building"
Wallace Nutting
Nutting was a very opinionated man (crack pot?). He knew alot about furniture and his books are great resources for us cabinet makers. I see his point, but I don't entirely agree with him.
I have some pieces which were made just to be original and new. Some of these are so out of proportion and so odd that they loose any sense of aesthetic appeal (for me).
Reproductions are fine. Millard's work is an example- wonderful.
I think it is fine to be creative. I try to design my own things. I borrow extensively from several sources. Chippendale's book is a starting point for me. I often get my proportions from his designs. I hunt around in junk/antique shops. I go to Monticello and other museums. Wallace Nuttings books, Sacks book and Gottshall's books are my references. Actually I have made only one straight reproduction- it was my nicest piece.
Frank
Nikkiwood's quote about art being derivative clicked with me. Here is the process that I have developed to derive or evolve my chairs. I photocopy a picture of one of my chairs on regular copy paper. During daylight hours I put this copy against a window pane (which acts like a light box) and trace the elements of the chair that I want to keep in the design of my next chair. Now I have the perspective and scale laid out for me and I can draw in the new ideas. If I had the ability to draw, this wouldn't be necessary, but since I don't and I don't want to take time to develop that skill, this technique works well for me. Bill Lindau
Goodmorning Paul:
Thanks for the info you sent me. I went through your web site and there is a ton of information in there. You obviously put a lot of effort into it. I am going to take your advice and teach myself sketchup. Patrick Morris
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