A think the question is about as serious as I get..
I see all sorts of stuff about sharpening.. I think I saw 16,000 grit Mesh? Whatever… something.. Dang, I don’t think my Grandpa had a straight razor THAT sharp. I use to watch him shave and I heard little voices that squeaked or screamed.. I’d ask Grandpa and he would tell me it was screams from the microbes on his face as they fell in two parts onto the bathroom floor?? I believed him!
I see allthis stuff about polish and whatever.. I do sharp enough to cut! and…. I tried better.. I think sharp enough is GOOD..Any better is wasting time!
Replies
My kingdom for a woodworking magazine with no sharpening articles or tool reviews.
woodworking magazine AND ya here! LOL I just love it!
My kingdom for a woodworking magazine with no sharpening articles or tool reviews.
Not in your life time!
The tool review, biggest waste of print that I've ever seen, next to my post that is.
Doug
LOL. I love it. Unfortunately our bitching about mag content seems to go noware. FWW seems to be destined to become a highbrow version of Popular Wood Working. Luckily there are a couple of other mags that have content about building things.
Mike
I have to disagree. A lot of us don't live near a big city where we can see the different brands. The tool review helps us chose the tools we have to order site unseen. I think it's important for the magazine to help incourage new wood workers by basics like tools sharpening. Now a days the schools don't have the shop courses that was avalible when I was young, the fatehers work in offices 60 and 70 hours a week and don't have the time or energy to teach their children, so the young are left on their own to learn from what sources the can. A well rounded magazine should have projects for novice to craftsman, not just be a trade magazine for a selct few.
Jack
Jack
My complaint with tool review are that in many cases it is one person trying out perhaps 6 or 8 differnt ROS.
That one person may or may not have my tool habits or tool requirements in mind.
I've yet to see a tool review that I have put a lot of stock in.
I'd much prefer to go to the guys that I know and see what they say, for instance, this place or the work place.
I'm not saying my way is the only way, if you like the tool review then great, I very seldom bother to look at the pictures, thats just me.
Doug
I have also found that the reviews don't always reflect everyday reality. Much as I like and respect FWW I have found that their reviews don't pan out in the real world (speaking as the poor bastard that heard all the good and the bad from multitudes of user's who bought because of a review). And also as a tool user who has had a chance to use and take apart many different tools. I think it's just a limitation of the amount of time available to do the tests and the neccesarily limited number of testers. I do think they do a good job of making it as good a test as is possible given the limitations. They go to a lot of trouble and expense to do tests that are applicable to as many people as possible.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Yes, but there are magazines already serving entry level woodworkers. Every woodworking magazine does not have to try to serve the same set of readers, does it?
One can read The Economist magazine, or one can read The Journal of Quantitative Economics.
See the difference? One is for the general reader and one is for a professional in the field. One has lots of pretty pictures and graphs, the other one has a lot of calculus, differential equations, and time-series analyses.
I agree, there are magazines that serve the newbie, I get a few of those once in a while, and find them helpful. I figure that the name Fine Woodworking would suggest something more than basic, so I expect to find advanced skills in the articles and projects. A friend of mine that builds very nice high priced homes allowed me to borrow some of his older FW magazines and at the time I thought I would never be at the skill level that those had in them. Now when I pick up a FW magazine I find that my skill level is close to what is in there, so either my skills have been honed some, or the articles are going more basic, or both. I think we all need reviews of tools, and even though I do live where I can see many nice tools I still can't use them before I buy, so the reviews are valuable to me. I still appreciate the challenge of a skill that seems complex and an article showing how to perform that skill. My opinion is if you want to learn something new you talk to folks that can do more than you can. If you are constantly talking to and watching folks that are your skill level, you may learn something but do you really advance your skill? Keep Fine Woodworking an advanced magazine is my thought.
I know it may sound blasphemous, but there are more than a few professional and serious amateur woodworkers who finish shopping for tools. And when they do shop, they don't need to consult a magazine whose tool reviewers quite often have less experience in the field than they do. And 75% of the brands typically reviewed I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Buy into the notion that you CAN own a complete kit of tools and let woodworking be about woodworking and not the next tool purchase.
Edited 5/30/2006 10:36 am ET by BossCrunk
I'd say you are right with your thoughts, I agree that if a magazine did not have any tool reviews I would not particularly miss the 'feature' of them. If I had my preferences, my idea would be a magazine that was strictly woodworking, and leave the tools to another publication, maybe by the same magazine maker, but not in the same issues as the woodworking stuff. I also would go for fewer ads and more space spent on the gist of the magazine's purpose. I also understand that advertising is a way for a magazine to bring us the stuff they do, but sometimes it is overkill. You can't please everybody though, and while we make suggestions and the magazine editors are reading over our shoulder, they are going to decide what goes in based on popular demand. Now if we ALL say forget the tools, wonder what they'd do in FW magazine? Maybe go back to what I remember in the older magazines I mentioned before? I would enjoy that. Here is something to chew on, I usually read more of FW stuff here than anywhere, seems I glean more useable information from the other readers as a whole. Good Stuff!!!
I think a reasonable point of departure for a magazine aimed at accomplished amateurs and professionals is the presumption of a well-equipped shop (just like a professional journal aimed at macroeconomists assumes a graduate-level mathematics ability - no Calculus I refreshers necessary). If not, then the same tired ground is covered constantly. Tool techniques, of course, would be covered in the articles themselves when necessary - no need for endless repetition about how to cut plain-Jane dovetails and mortise and tenon joints, for example. No standalone articles that go something like "Three Ways to Cut a Mortise and Tenon Joint" or "Dovetails by Hand and Machine" and all that crapola. If an interesting design requires a unique perspective on a particular joint or joinery strategy then the author can cover that.
An opportunity exists for somebody to publish a 'journal of record' for truly fine woodworking and design. The journal(s) of record used to be FW and the short-lived Home Furniture magazine. I guess that I romantically, and foolishly, hang on to the notion that this could be done profitably but the current market says 'probably not.'
Edited 5/30/2006 1:00 pm ET by BossCrunk
>An opportunity exists for somebody to publish a 'journal of record' for truly fine woodworking and design. The journal(s) of record used to be FW and the short-lived Home Furniture magazine. I guess that I romantically, and foolishly, hang on to the notion that this could be done profitably but the current market says 'probably not.'
---
Hey Boss,
Being fairly new to woodworking (carpentry is not woodworking, right? ;), I'm impressed with the selection of howtos and reviews here at FWW. I've bought a few stationary tools this year. While I would never base a purchase on one review, without the likes of FWW adding their 2cents to my research, I would be left with less reliable opinions out there on the net. I believe the reviews I've read here (and opinions in the knots forums) have helped me make more informed choices.
With regards the skill level of howtos written at FWW, I'm also very happy with what I've been able to read to get me started. Its unfortunate you don't feel the same way. I may agree in a few years but right now many different ways of crafting a joint are helping me discover the way *I* want to do it.
I've been lurking here for a few weeks getting ideas and setting up my shop. The online FWW articles and the things I've seen/read in the forums, especially the likes of Lee G. and Kintaro Y., have inspired me quite a bit.
Just wanted to add *my* 2cents. :)
Andy
As a beginner to furnituremaking (you're right it isn't carpentry - they are separate professions) I have no doubt whatsoever that the Taunton vidoes, books, etc. have helped you.
I think a reasonable point of departure for a magazine aimed at accomplished amateurs and professionals is the presumption of a well-equipped shop.
I think that this is finally something we can agree on. After I own a tool reading a review on it isn't that interesting. I don't mind the occasional tool review, they are after all part of woodworking. The thing that really gets me about the tool review is they review 13 nearly identical items, and somehow place one on top...
Good point, Alot of us don't need any more tools. Also consider that some of us Don't give a flying F--- because we live in places where these brands don't even exist.
Philip
Edit: It's called fine woodworking not fine tool buying.
Edited 5/31/2006 5:31 pm ET by wop
Yeah that was the other thing... most of the tools are not readily available here and I'm only in Canada.
I think that FW should limit the tool reviews to the tool guide (and therbye making the tool guide new material rather than a rehash of the reviews in FW and FH).
Edit: It's called fine woodworking not fine tool buying.
As well put as the matter could be. ForestGirl, you reading this?
To all who don't like FWW for this or that reason:
Why do you buy it? Do you criticise all magazines in this way? Do you criticise everything in the world that doesn't meet your standards of perfection in this way?
You are wasting your energy and will never be content.
Why not ignore these irritants, if that is what they are, and do something else, elsewhere? Me, I never read a newspaper or any other periodical that discusses matters of no interest to me. There is too much that IS of interest, in that wonderful elsewhere.
Lataxe
Speaking of irritants... may we ignore you?
Charlie,
As one of your doctors, I cannot give you permission to ignore me, despite (indeed because of) the irritation. You see, I understand that you can never be happy unless you're unhappy, so I must oblige.
But take your emetic and stop pulling that grim face all day. You know it makes sense.
Meanwhile, how about some WW wisdom in between all that moaning and griping? I know you have it and will extract it from you, one way or another. :-)
Or are you just pretending to the claimed wisdom (I will be shocked if so).
Dr Lataxe
Lataxe,
Old chap, you disappoint me. If we can't pi$$ and moan amongst our friends here at Knots, then where? We come here looking for understanding and sympathy for our plight, and you kick over our stack of blocks. Think I'll have another beer to cry into... and have a look at the new issue of Woodwork that arrived yesterday.
Cheers,
Ray
Reading other peoples mail, I can buy what you say but:-
Why do some folk have a go at "Forestgirl", is this an in thing? Picking up on her postings has helped me to solve a few PC problems.
Others moan at the lack of "high-end" material or content in FW. What in the name of creation is that? Would it help if articles were written in Latin? That is how the Church used to hide knowledge from the masses.
To my mind furniture of any nature is either to my taste or the other. I assume everyone builds to the best of his or her ability and strives to improve, how we all get there does not matter, only the results count. Thus the forum and Mags provide the space for the HOW but they never will give the justification some seem to yearn for.
Me, I like a large whisky and looking over your shoulders.
Mufti,
I will join you in that large malt; and in your fine Yorky pragmatism.
Lataxe, In Lancashire.
mufti,
I dunno why others like to pick on FG. I have enough trouble 'splainin' why I do some of the things I do. Maybe their mums never told them it isn't nice to pick on a girl.
Speaking for myself only, ceaseless articles comparing virtually identical tools, does not constitute fine woodworking. Perhaps an article describing how to get the most from such a tool (router, tablesaw, Stanley plane), in the way of alterations or purpose built jigs would do so. Making a bookcase from shelving boards falls into the same category- it's woodworking, for sure, but not fine. I'm not talking about liking or disliking the style, but cutting a stopped dado is something that does not entail any special skills or deep thinking on the part of an adequate woodworker. I shouldn't expect that joinery to evoke an "AHAH" from the reader. That's what I meant about the content becoming broader, but shallower.
Let's hope that all of us are continuing to try to improve our skills. And there's certainly nothing wrong with the magazine giving the beginner a leg up. Let's also have something to strive for or aspire to, in the future.
The spearmint is coming on strong on the north side of the house. I prefer several small frosty juleps to a single large one.
Regards,
Ray
Ray, I owe you an appolgy because none of the diatribe was aimed at you. I appriciate your comments and in recompense, and in the absence of mint julips I hope you get some pleasure from the enclosed 1923 article.
best wishes
David
mufti,
No offense taken, old chap. I appreciate the gesture of the attachment, but my old computer is too dumb to know what to do with a .met file--as am I. But thanks anyway.
Regards,
Ray
Now thats sad becos its a 1923 article extolling the virtues of, and describing, the side-saw which preceeded the general use of the bandsaw by ordinary craftmen. It was like a big bow saw used vertically but the top arm was extended to the right to act as a balance to the weight of the frame. I am going to work on these attachments, the next one was to be instructions for making a coffin!
Regards, David.
I still say the way to go would be through a professional organization with a sponserd journal . No adds, no tool reviews, no basic skills articals. That way the members could dictate the content and policies. I would not belong to this organization because I am a rank amature but I would probably enjoy some of the articles. And I do sympathize with those of you who have become professionals and craftsmen. It is unfortunate that everything must be reduced to it's most common denominator. My self I like FWW the way it is but I can definately see your point.
Jack
SAPFM is as close to such an organization at the moment.
I think your comment are leading in the right direction but just do not go far enough! A quality blunt chisel is a waste of space, but it can be fettled. In most instances a non-performing power tool also can be improved.
A case in point is the PC linear sander which was lambasted some time ago. I have one and it was a disaster, but I decided to eliminate all pad movement in a vertical plane by opening it up and shimming the cams. It now works well and ,shock-horror, the sand paper stays on the platten. I did remove the label " proudly made in America" out of respect.
As far as FW is concered I know the skill level is acquired by graft (not that sort! ) but I admired the inovative thinking and resourcefullness exhibited by early contributors which seems to have been replaced by mail order instruction manuals.
Mufti,
I have one of them there PC linear sanders and I would like details of your fix, if this wouldn't be too onerous.
Lataxe
Family background is Yorkshire, nature is brevity, but what the heck! Only stumbling block are Torx screws, you need to remove all and the crosshead on the base. This lets you lay it down with the multiple hole side uppermost. Open the case and lift out the whole bearing, gear assembly.
If you stand that assbly upright and turn the plastic gear wheel, you should see the cam operated plate move to and fro but it can be jiggled up and down. By removing the two Torx screws and adding copper washers of the right thickness under the screw heads you will remove the slack, but be careful to still allow fore and aft travel! Add molly grease to the slides ,a drop of liquid fortification to yourself and put it back together.
One lasht ip. Sticky paper is a bit of a dead loss. Cut up old small machine sanding belts and spray adhesive work well.
Would you like to join the Richard the third society? I can give you details.
Best wishes, David.
David,
Aopologies for taking so long to reply. And thanks for the sander-mod advice - I've scheduled a playtime next week for tools so I've added that job to the usual sharpening, greasing, jade-oiling and such.
I got the PC sander dirt cheap from CMT Abrasives, some years ago. It provides a reasonable small delta sander and the profile rubbers (note for US persons - not the kind of rubbers you may be thinking of) are at least good for hand sanding.
I did try the normal sticky-back sandpaper, but with 3M picture-mount sticky also sprayed on the rubber profile blocks. This helps somewhat but they still part company after a while.
I notice that Fein now sell a similar sanding system for their all-purpose vibrating thang; but they capture the edges of the sandpaper with some form of clip. Probably wise.
Anyway, I shall try your mod.
Now you must explain to me what the Richard III society is. I hope it doesn't involve cutting the heads off Lancastrians with big swords, or even taunting them with roses of a certain colour?!
Lataxe (David also)
Edited 6/3/2006 7:08 pm ET by Lataxe
Charles one thing you may not be considering, if the FWW was only for advance craftsmen and beyond the scope and understanding of journymen and beginners , how much do you think it would cost to print the 10 copies that their readership would consist of?
Jack
Would those 10 people be the folks that contibute to the magazine content?
Jack,
Good point. That is the the crux of the whole "whatever happened to the good old days" of FWW discussion. There was a time when the slant of the magazine was definitely more toward the, well, fine end of the woodworking spectrum, with excursions into some of the more esoteric fringes (native American wood working, snowshoes, crooked knives; gigantic turnings; tinkertoy joinery). It was a small magazine, both in # of issues (4/yr) and pages (60-80) and obviously aimed at a limited audience.
The old business adage of grow or die was apparently taken to heart by the powers that be, at Taunton Press. Not only did Fww get bigger, but now we have Fine homebuilding, fine gardening, fine cooking, fine music listening, fine RVing, fine publishing...all very fine indeed. But to appeal to a wider audience, the woodworking had to get shallower.
Back in the 70' and 80's, I anticipated the arrival of each issue of FWW. Nowadays, my renewal of subscription is more a matter of habit than anything else. As someone else has said, I have all the tools I need to do what I do. Bought most of 'em in the 70's. But I'm not the kind of woodworker the magazine is aiming at anymore. I get that.
Regards,
Ray Pine
It would have to be priced similarly to any other professional journal in medicine, law, finance, economics, etc. - a few hundred bucks per year, at least. It would become even more of a self-fulfilling prophecy at a dear price. The readership would most certainly demand quality.
That sounds like a lot of money to those still in the tool accumulation phase of the craft (which the vast majority IMO never move past). Once you have your shop in place, a few hundred bucks a year on a magazine and maybe a few hundred more on books is not much money.
I can't speak for the 'suffering artist' crowd. They will always exist. I don't necessarily have an answer to their economic woes. There is an aspect of business in every profession.
Woodworking (a generic term which I tend to dislike) is a bit unusual in the sense that it can be both a hobby and a profession. There are no hobbyists in thoracic surgery. I would simply like to see ONE publication aimed at the very high-end, and exclusively so. This is not a denigration of the entry-level crowd. I'm quite comfortable saying that there are PLENTY of published resources for those who are just starting out. It's not a put-down to say that pros get a little bit weary wading through the noise trying to find something of value, in print, for their practice of the craft AS A PROFESSION.
And my argument should not be construed as meaning that the 'old' FW was perfect in every respect. It wasn't.
Edited 6/1/2006 10:12 am ET by BossCrunk
There are no hobbyists in thoracic surgery.
Didn't you see Hostel?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I am not a profesional and never have been but I think I see what you are getting at. The trouble is I have read many articles by profesionals bemoaning the fact that they only made money by filling peoples needs rather than being able to indulge themselves in design and technique. For a pro, profit has to rule, otherwise he isn't.
My paternal grandfather went bust trying to prove otherwise as a cabinetmaker.
I would think that every profession would benifit with a dedicated publication, but unfortunatly it is not economical, if it were FWW would not have changed. I may be wrong but it just seams the market is not there. Most of the professional journals are suported by subscription, dues and membership fees. Perhaps you should consider starting such a profesional group and maybe that would solve your problem with the availiable journals.
Jack
I agree that they should limit tool reviews to the once a year tool review edition.
i also agree that the content should be geared more towards someone who has a sound grasp of the fundamentals and a well equipped shop as a starting point.
Sometimes i think i'll be driven to go on a seven state kiling spree with a pairing chisel if i have to read one more article on the best way to cut a freaking dovetail, or which is the best cordless drill to buy.
I have about 7 cordless drills, most of which are high quality german brands that are not even reviewed in their articles. so i had better sell those and go buy the latest dewalt because the editor's brother-in-law seems to think it would be the best one for me to use.
I also have some inclination to doubt the unbiased content of a review of the best contractors saw (which i have a desperate need for...(that's sarcasm)) that is printed on a magazine page with a delta ad on the other side.
I also have some inclination to doubt the unbiased content of a review of the best contractors saw (which i have a desperate need for...(that's sarcasm)) that is printed on a magazine page with a delta ad on the other side.
Good point. It seems we're being asked to check our common sense at the door. I don't intend to do that.
And you're right on another point - there is an entire other world of woodworking machinery most here are not even aware of.
But you're forgetting one thing. The Economist probably has a circulation in the hundreds of thousands, while the JOQE might have a couple thousand readers. Unfortunately FWW and everybody else is chasing the same buck. Even though I am not a professional, I appreciated FWW for its professional bent, as the work and level of articles were something to aspire to. But now it's getting like all the others. It's like cable TV, we used to have all these great channels, like History Channel, Discovery, Animal Planet and Biography, but they have all fallen into the reality show, spoon-fed garbage mentality of all the other channels. Animal Planet's typical fare is either a dog show, or "The Planet's Funniest Animals." Just give me back Marlin Perkins and my "Wild Kingdom." Why can't a company just be happy with it's niche and serve it well? Note to Lie-Nielsen...please don't start selling your stuff in Home Depot, and try to bring your products to the mass market. Everyone knows, when you start chasing numbers, you lose your soul.I too have been going the book route. I find the magazines so repetitive. While I am nowhere near 200 (at least for WW books, classic literature and Shakesperian Studies, yes) I am putting together a respectable collection. I still have not been able to top Nakashima's "The Soul of a Tree" for inspiration. That book makes we want to be a better woodworker and leave my own legacy.
One factor I don't think people are giving enough weight is that when you look at the spectrum of woodworkers in the world today versus twenty or more years ago, there are a lot more total rank beginners. Because so many must learn in isolation, we progress more slowly, and more of us drop out before reaching a significant level of skill.
It's harder getting proficient at woodworking if you've nobody to learn from. Determined folks can do it, but it's difficult. So I suspect a large and increasing percentage of folks today who start woodworking (and subscribe to magazines and buy tools) will never get to the level many of you would like to see FWW target.
I'm not saying we shouldn't want that journal of record, the house organ for the truly capable craftsman. In fact, I think it's even more essential if woodworking is in decline. But making a business of it is tough.
If you want to see that become viable, I think we need to figure out ways to help beginners advance. I think this forum is a huge contribution, you all have certainly helped me a lot. If there were no communities like this, I don't know if I would even have truly undertaken this hobby. Maybe in addition to pushing Taunton to keep FWW's standards high, we need to figure out more ways to keep the hobby vibrant and growing. How can we do that?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Don't get me wrong...I am a fairly competant post-beginner. I have aspirations from my craft, and they extend beyond what I see in the "other" magazines. I am not at the level of most on this forum. However, I like the higher level of wwing I used to see and still see occasionally in FWW. It is a lot like playing a sport with a better athlete than yourself; it makes you better.
Boss,
Try books.
Lataxe
I have a 200+ volume library of woodworking, design, and books on furniture history. I would guess that my investment in my library is equal to or greater than my investment in shop tools.
now that's an impressive sounding library...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
So, I'm not the only one who buys WW books, 200 is very impresive, at last count, I am at 182. They are the only teacher I ever really had, (and Tage Frid's are still the gold standard).
Too bad FWW is on the tool review slide..... I have every issue, but those after the smaller format are not nearly as vauable to me.
Sorry, Boss. I was a bit rude there. I hope you'll forgive an overhasty reaction.
For some reason I feel a loyalty to Taunton. Many of my books are theirs and FWW still remains unsurpassed as a WW magazine, at least to my British eyes. I credit much of my WW knowledge to many hours reading and practicing Taunton-given advice.
Lataxe
So perhaps others have "Tools of the Trade" by Jeff Taylor, Chronical Books, SF, CA. Its more FH but a good and enjoyable read.
That's a great, great book, mufti. I've read it at least 4 times. I even used to carry it in my helmet bag when I was in the service. One of my first goals in working with handtools was to get a copy of each of those tools, and of course, to build the 'Swanny,' "ever' angle on 'em is 75 degrees!" sawhorses.
Taylor tried to do the same thing with a similar book on garden tools but it was a pale comparison. Let's face it, whether you're a lover of quality handtools or not, rubber buckets, trowels and watering cans just do not compare with woodworking and carpentry tools!
Hello soul neighbour! (We are just getting Home Improvements on satelite). I never had use for a transit cos I used a water tube but I lusted after a slick. A few years back I put a false pitched roof over a flat leaking roof and matching the slope would have been a lot easier with one.
I was only a school caretaker part time, a year later they found the money to replace the roof with a third rate job. In the meantime all was sound and dry.
I never did get on with a Yankee though.
I bet your Grandpa was sharpening his razor freehanded too !
Sharp enough is good, I agree with you 100%
C.
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