Just When I’m Ready to Buy American Saw
It was a major hurdle for me to overcome the safety issues inherent in North American-style table saws. But I was just getting over it, ready to purchase either a Bridgewood or a Grizzly table saw, and suddenly I see a new web site by Jet where they are selling Euro-style table saws. The catch – Jet, an American company, is only selling these saws in Europe!
What does this tell me? It tells me that North American woodworking companies CAN make safer and better products, WHEN THEY WANT TO. For years, I’ve been hearing from those who defend North American woodworking machine producers. People say that the companies cannot develop European-style safety and sliding tables, because the cost is prohibitive. What else does this tell me? This tells me that as long as we, the consumers, keep buying inferior North American-style table saws (ones without sliding tables, no riving knives, and inferior dust collection, just to name a few factors), we will NEVER be offered true innovation. In other words, we the consumers keep rewarding North American manufacturers for making inferior products. We reward them by plunking down our cash for products that show little or no improvements in major areas of concern.
I understand that the cost of this new machine by jet is far above the typical cabinet saw sold in America. But why can’t Jet (and by extension Powermatic), General, Grizzly, and others make cabinet saws with at least SOME of these improved features? Can’t we at least get a North American-style cabinet saw with a true riving knife?
Woodworkers have all kinds of support for American companies. All I am asking for is to see American companies support us, the consumers.
Here’s the link:
http://www.jet.uk.com/
Edited 2/5/2003 10:49:22 AM ET by Matthew Schenker
Replies
This Jet looks real familiar. It appears to be the Robland E300 but stripped down. Jet has been selling the loaded model of this through Powermatic since the IWF show last summer.
Al
It is pretty amazing to see the Jet logo on a European saw. Is this saw available in the U.S. market? Obviously it's not being heavily advertised here, if at all. I'd really like to understand the business reasoning - I don't doubt they know what they're doing, but it isn't obvious to me right off the top of my head.
Notice the prices! Something on the order of $4,125 U.S. Maybe they just figure that North American consumers are so conditioned to getting a "top of the line" saw for less than $2,000 that they needn't bother trying to convince them otherwise.
Looks like Grizzly has entered the market in a "big" way. Guess it's really designed for 4x8 sheets. Perhaps a smaller sized model is on its way.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G0501&site=grizzly
Jeff
Matthew,
With all due respect, I have to offer a counter argument. Your post struck a nerve with me but we are all entitled to our own opinions.
If these European tablesaws are vastly better then our American saws, then we alreadyn have a system in place that will bring them to our market. It's called capitalism. I for one would far rather spend the difference in prices on something more productive then expensive "safety" features. You, I take it, would not. Fine, you buy the European style saw and I'll by the American saw. Whenever we are conditioned to believe that it is not our own responsibility to watch out for ourselves, we loose a little bit of what makes this republic great. The most important piece of safety equipment in any shop is the person running the tools. That person can just as easily hurt himself with either style of saw.
If you want to petition the rest of us to help you persuade the American brands to offer an European saw style, then convince us that it is a valuable effort. I fit into the category of woodworkers who cannot justify a $5000 machine when a $2000 machine will do the exact same job and more, and I'm going to be a hard sell. Perhaps we should attempt to convince the European companies to offer one of our very versitile designs?
Steve
steve,
it is unfortunate that you define the average american.
It's a drag for americans who are open minded and realize that we get shafted by our cumulative ignorance.
Do you have a sticker on your car that says "now it's our turn"????
I'm guessing the chances are good
OPEN UP. YOU DONT GET IT!
Turnstyler,
I'm not sure that your post is relevant to the discussion about the benefits of European style tablesaws. It appears to be a personal afront of my opinion not substantiated by any facts. I am very sceptical of any development that is driven by legislation.
As a previous poster on this thread noted, my apologies I can't remember who, this style of saw would preclude the use of a stacked dado . A new member from England posted yesterday, a messege lamenting the inability to use a stacked dado in the new saws avalible there. He said the mandated blade braking system makes them unuseable.
I am a farmer who has Caterpiller agricultural equipment. I just toured their assembly plant in Illinois and was suprised by the extra "safety" equipment mandated by the EU for tractors. The price was far higher with the ridiculous attachments and in my experience they would have been useless. I bring this up to illustrate a point. Let the market choose the extras they want to pay for and true progress will be made. There are not very many radial arm saws used for ripping now and I'm guessing the advent of cheaper contracter table saws helped bring that about. How many of us have removed a blade guard and splitter because they are in the way? I think the a government agency mandated their sale with my newest saw and I don't use them. There are good reasons to practice safe woodworking, but I think that I should be given the choice as to how I do it.
I'm not saying that all European saws are inferior to American saws, in fact, I think a sliding table is a great idea. I just resent being forced to buy something I don't want in my shop.
Steve
FYI my SUV has a sticker that says, "I'm the NRA, and I vote".
ENCORE!
I wonder whether you realize how many of the safety features in your SUV - safety features that protect your wife and children and that you simply take for granted - were mandated by some dumb government agency. Start with the airbags and seatbelts. The industry was vociferously opposed to those when they were proposed. How about steering columns that don't become deadly spears during a crash. How about safety glass on the windshield that doesn't decapitate passengers. How about child safety seats. How about gas tanks that don't explode on impact, or chassis that don't roll over when you veer to avoid hitting a pedestrian. How about tires that handle rain and snow, and safety equipment that keeps the exhaust out of the passenger compartment.
You may fantasize that you're a frontiersman hazarding the dangers of the wilderness on your own. In reality your personal safety and the safety of your family in your home, in your car, on the highways, in the shopping mall, and everywhere else you go is being protected by this dumb government that is always putting "useless" requirements on industry.
If you thought about it for longer than it takes to read your bumper sticker, you'd understand why this safety stuff makes sense - why it is really a necessary condition of a vibrant consumer marketplace - and once you understood that you might actually begin to appreciate it.
MR
Are tablesaw injuies dramatically lower in the UK?
Edited 2/6/2003 2:26:13 PM ET by CIRCLEKID
Edited 2/6/2003 2:26:39 PM ET by CIRCLEKID
Thanks for the kind words. Your question quite relevent. I bet the answer is the same as to this question: Is crime any less in England?
Steve
Not sure the answer to is crime any less in England is what you think it is. From an article I saved that I found interesting. Sorry, wasn't smart enough to save a link. I've also read articles talking about dramatic increases in burglaries and other crimes. And another article in the London Times I think, about a year ago, that talked about London'ers are now at greater risk of crime then most US cities.
This is what happens when governments try to ban guns
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 05/01/2003)
According to a UN survey from last month, England and Wales now have the highest crime rate of the world's 20 leading nations. One can query the methodology of the survey while still recognising the peculiar genius by which British crime policy has wound up with every indicator going haywire - draconian gun control plus vastly increased gun violence plus stratospheric property crime.
Meanwhile, America's traditionally high and England and Wales's traditionally low murder rates are remorselessly converging. In 1981, the US rate was nine times higher than the English. By 1995, it was six times. Last year, it was down to 3.5. Given that US statistics, unlike the British ones, include manslaughter and other lesser charges, the real rate is much closer. New York has just recorded the lowest murder rate since the 19th century. I'll bet that in the next two years London's murder rate overtakes it.
© Copyright of Telegraph Group
I could be wrong, but I would think a higher percentage of people in the US own tablesaws then they do in England. Perhaps they have lower incidences of accidents per saw owned then we do. Perhaps not. No disputing that some of the really cheap saws sold in the US are inherently unsafe, opps, now I'm generalizing.
I too would like to see saws come w/ better safety equipment. Is the riving knife it? A lot of people here say it is. A year ago, after reading 2 books on tablesaw usage, I'd never heard of or seen one. Would be easy to design one into a saw (I design welding machinery). Kind of hard to add one on later. Though, they look to be prone to bending out of alignment to me (only 1/8" thick after all).
Your post illustrates the wisdom of the old saying that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Are you really serious about the level of gun violence in the U.S. versus the U.K.? The last time I looked, there were about 25,000 gun-related murders annually in the U.S., and about 12 in the U.K. Do you think it matters if, say, the U.K. number has tripled? Are you saying with a straight face that the tripling (for example) of the U.K. murder rate to 36 shows that gun control laws cause gun violence, and thus that the U.S., with 25,000 gun murders and the relative absence of such laws, is safer?
By this measure, the U.S. is a far more dangerous place than, say, South Africa for whooping cough. On a percentage basis the number of reported cases has grown from none several years ago to a handful today, due to a lack of vaccination. This high rate of increase proves, by your logic, that a public policy requiring vaccination actually contributes to the spread of disease! Never mind that there are now five cases of whooping cough in this country and 500,000 in South Africa.
Note I'm not saying anything about the Second Amendment. Maybe our constitution permits everyone to carry a bazooka and maybe it doesn't. But as to safety? You've got to be kidding somebody, principally yourself.
It is wonderful what you can prove if you assume the conclusion, isn't it?
Not to be picky, but of the 858 murders in England and Wales last year, 97 were due to firearms, a 32% rise over the previous year. There were 9, 974 instances of gun crime in the year ending Sept. 2002, a 35% increase over the previous year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,871791,00.html
Thanks for the clarification. It helps to use real numbers!
Thus, 97 gun-related murders in the U.K., and nearly 10,000 gun-related crimes in the U.S. Is the population of the U.S. something like four times the U.K.? And this proves that the U.S. is safer. Perfect.
As an added note of interest, in 1981, the U.S. rate was nine times higher than the English. By 1995, it was six times. Last year (2002), it was down to 3.5. Given that U.S. statistics, unlike the British ones, include manslaughter and other lesser charges, the real rate is much closer.
It would appear that there is a convergence in crime rates between the two countries.
The rising incidence of gun crimes in an island country that has some of the most draconian gun laws in the world does lead one to wonder if perhaps the criminals responsible for these crimes are failing to obey the gun laws. I have failed to find any statistics on the number of guns turned in to the police by criminals after the enactment of any of the gun control laws.
Mark,
Billyg83440 nails this point. It's obvious you can't legislate morality or safety. If you are curious about the gun issue, I recommend this link: http://www.nra.org
No matter what your bias on guns is, this site has a wealth of information. I gather that you lean anti-2nd Amendment. Keep an open mind and look at the facts logically. You owe it to yourself to make an educated decision. I think you might discover that the NRA is not the group of knuckle dragging, redneck ingrates that we are often made out to be.
As to the statistics about violence in the UK, do some research and you will find that anti-gun laws coincide with a dramatic spike in crime. Check Australia's records too. I'd give you the numbers, but chances are you wouldn't believe them unless you found them yourself. There is a great book called "Bias" on the market. I can't remember the authors name off the top of my head, but it is a top seller. Read it and you will start to understand why there is such a huge gap in everyone's statistics.
Now, back to that cabinet....
Steve
Whoa, sorry I offended you.
I was just challenging your assumption that Britains crime rates are much lower then in the US. The only article I'd kept dealt specifically with how the #'s of gun crimes had increased dramatically in the last few years. Though I've read several articles about how their property crime rate is often higher in some British cities then in some similar US cities; I've never kept one of these.
Unfortunately, Britain' murder rate is increasing while ours has been declining. Going from 11% our rate per capita to 29% in a couple years is pretty alarming. This is murders per 100,000 people. Last I knew we had about 6 times the population. I'd certainly be alarmed if the US murder rate tripled in the last 6 or 7 years. Or the rate of gun crimes increased 35% in one year.
But, after a bit of research, as a whole you are right, you are less likely to be a victim ofa violent crime in England. Though you may be more likely to be the victim of a property crime.
>>It is wonderful what you can prove if you assume the conclusion, isn't it? Yep, you assumed I was saying something I wasn't. Amazing what conclusions you jumped to.
There, I'm done w/ the political discussion here. Didn't really intend to start one, though I participate in some in the Tavern at Breaktime.
BACK TO TABLE SAW SAFETY
I'm still not convinced riving knives are:
A) Legal under existing US safety laws. (If not legal why are you berating manufacturers for not offering them?)
B) Signifigantly better then just using a splitter on a table saw.
Also, why are dadoe blade outlawed in Europe (that seems really stupid)
Frankly, the sight of a piece of thin metal curved over the top of a spinning table saw blade gives me the willeys.
Still seems like it could easily get bent out of alignment and cause problems. If so, it'd be removed and end up in a drawer, just like current US gaurds.
Frankly, I'm still waiting for saws equipped with the Saw Stop system, that drops the blade and turns the saw off if the blade contacts flesh. Seems it'd be much safer then anything else out there, and would be worth paying a few hundred bucks more for. That and a splitter would really make me happy. Preferably a splitter that raises and tilts with the blade, like a riving knife. But is mounted behind the blade, not over it.
Riving knives are perfectly legal in the U.S. They're standard equipment on the Ryobi BT3x series. I think the topic has been discussed several times here before; one of the more recent ones, including some pictures, can be found in the thread named Table saw price check .HTH
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
Good to see you pop up, sir. I was just wondering about your where-abouts a few days ago. I have been busy all winter and haven't kept up. You may have been here all the time.
Thanks for sharing info on this subject. You put quite a bit of light on it when I first got to the forum. Hope all is well in Japan and the neighbors are still maintaining the landscape so beautifully.
Have a good whatever time it is there. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
CircleKid. Here's a link. Research away. I'm not interested in joining in the general spitting of feathers, and the bad case of handbags going on, but I do like my British made table saw. I've said more than enough on this subject in the past, and I don't feel like saying it again. ;-) Slainte.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htmWebsite The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
I don't want to get deeply involved in this thread as it has been dicussed before. For those that feel a rivving knife is a thin piece of flimsy metal that curves over the rear of the blade. Keep in mind the danger lies in the rear rising teeth, not the down cutting teeth in the front. The rivving knife not only keeps the stock separated, it goes over the top of those rear rising teeth for a pupose. A wooden or plastic crown gaurd is attached to the top to check the up-lift of a peice of stock being thrown up from those rear rising teeth.
In order for the saw to break this rivving knife and crown gaurd on my saw, it will have to break 4 5/16" case-hardened bolts and a piece of lignum vitae. I made my rivving knife from an old saw blade. I tried to cut it with a hack-saw and after ruining two new blades in only 3/4" of cut and 40 minutes of sawing, I had my BIL cut it at the machine shop at Delta Air lines. Saw blades are not flimsy, IMO. ha..ha..
It just seemed that some posters are not sure exactly what it is and how it functions. The most critical safety feature of a TS is the operator themselves. Clear the lane of fire, concentration on the saw and stock and readiness to re-act to any sign of kick-back with a conveniently located kill switch. The correct set up of blade to fence and correct feed rate.
Having said that, I would not give up my rivving knife and crown gaurd. I didn't go to the trouble to make them if I hadn't felt they were worthwhile or would come off the saw and attack me. I am confident they will stop a piece of stock from going ballistic in my direction. IMHO of course. That's the one that counts as the operator of my saw will use any method he deems necessary to remain in control an intact.Three of those methods are rivving knife, crown gaurd and the short fence. My call. ha..ha..
Regards to alls opinions...
sarge..jt
Hey Sarge, one question, did you retrofit your knife to your saw? OK two, does the knife move with the blade? Heck, why not three, do you ever remove it for a dado or whatever? Sounds interesting and a guy can't have too many ideas.
Steve
Steve
Just started to log off. I will try to answer without the aid pictures I had on file but took off. When my wife returns from picking up my teen-ager, I will ask her to add back and post latter to-nite. I've taken the day away from shop.
The old junk saw I modified had a riving (I not sure of the correct spelling anymore, ha) knife as part of the design. I threw it away and made two new ones. Used old saw-blade blanks as I stated and that gave me a 1/8. My BIL ground the other to 3/32" for use with Thin-Kerf blades. This is important as you should use a 1/8" with a regular blade and of course it is too wide for a 3/32" thin kerf cut. You can't put a 3/32" cut in the stock past a 1/8" knife. ha...
Yes, the knife moves with the blade. Up and down and at angles as the riving knife is attached to the same mechanism as the arbor and blade. If it did not move with it, it is not a riving knife. That is a splitter as on most of our U.S. saws. This is one of the distinct differences between the two.
You have to remove a riving knife as a splitter for a dado cut or any non-thru cut. Thats just life. I added thumb nuts to the two bolts that attach to the saw. Can take the whole thing off in about a minute. I have two bolts that extend through the crown gaurd and riving knife. These are case hardened T bolts with T-knobs for quick realease. I can release the front T bolt and raise the crown gaurd to change blades without having to remove the crown gaurd.
I also designed a piece of Lexan gaurd that attaches to the front of the crown gaurd. It allows me to see the blade yet still gaurds against me getting my hand to close. I just slides on an off as I designed it for easy access.
The crown gaurd sits about 1/8" above the blade. Not much way to get your finger or hand in the blade accidentally. It would take great effort and total lack of concentration.
Hope this is a help. I will try to post some pics latter evening. They are not great photo work, but will hopefully help you to understand the principle of the knife and gaurd.
Dog walking time, I walk her or she walks me. Undecided. Ha.
sarge..jt
Steve
Hope this will give you a better understanding of a riving knife, crown guard and a removable short fence. Does it get in the way and you are tempted to take it off and throw it away. Nope. If you stay out of the lane, there's not many places for the stock to go unless it splintered.
Judge for yourself and feel free to ask questions. I will answer them to the best of my knowledge passed to me by Mr. Richard Jones, a.k.a. slainte, a.k.a. the former Sgain Dubh.
Good luck and remember, the answers are there; you just have to find them.
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Thanks for staying up to post the pics. My compliments on the ingenuity. I have a better idea of what a riving knife is and how it could be used now. Looks like a massive improvement over the splitter guard thing that I took off my saw. That's interesting that you got pointers from the local celebrity for it! I'm going to check the pics out better and I will probably have a few more questions. Thanks again,
Steve
Steve
I as you and probaly many others here, had never heard of such before I came to this forum. I been WW for 30 years and it's just not everyday information. Got interested in a thread about a year ago and it went from there.
Richard Jones, along with a few others were patient enough to give me an understanding of what it was and how it works. Now that I know, it just makes good sense. IMO
If you have questions, I will try to answer. If I cannot, I have a feeling someone will. If you go back a few post, Mr. Jones stated he would not get involved. If you are really interested and confused on the matter, I think he will intervene. Please go to the web-site he posted a few messages ago and you should learn what you need to know. If not, I will try to answer. If I understand it, anyone can understand it as it's very simple and effective.
Now off to sleep as I have a semi-circle to design tomorrow...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Thank you very much, you've added some much needed info to this discussion.
The way you discribe riving knives makes a lot of sense, as does how you've done your blade cover.
After I'd posted, I got thinking some more, and realized that a riving knife would be 14 gauge (.08) min. for thin kerf or thicker for a normal blade. So it wouldn't be flimsy at all.
Building it out of an old blade is a fantastic idea. Though it's hard to shape hardened metal.
Did you attatch it where the original blade gaurd & splitter assembly attatched, or did you have to modify your saw some?
The way you discribe it makes a lot of sense. And, my used table saw came w/o any type of safety devices. I had planned to build an overhead blade gaurd, and build a splitter, but your's looks like a better way to go.
I really should be smart enough to stop using the saw w/o at least a splitter. Gotta build something in all my spare time.
I'm still not sure a manufacturer could offer a riving knife w/o special exemptions to some safety requirements in US law. Special exemptions to safety laws, no matter how much better and safer your product is, are hard to defend in court.
Ditto to what BillyG83440 Said. Thanks for posting the photos.
I was trained on American-style tablesaws but I'm open to learning new stuff. Will do searches and read the previous threads.
Ed
Ed
Ya da man. Read what I just posted to Billy and you will know I also grew up on American saws, which are great except for the gaurd system.
Thanks for being open-minded about the subject. A year ago I was in the dark also. I've learned after 30 years of WW there is absolutely nobody that knows everything about this craft. We can eliminate some of that with this computer stuff that lets information get communicated much faster than the old days when it was word of mouth at the WW show each year or the neighboring WW happened across it and passed it along.
BTW, where are you in Mississippi. I love down Biloxi way and I ocassionally get over to southern La. for that Cajun food and music. Them folks know how to have fun on Saturday nite.ha..ha.. Let the Good Times Roll....
Have a great day and keep diggin', me and you might figure out something new and pass it along as the craft should be..,
sarge..jt
Good afternoon, Sarge,
Meridian MS - East MS hill country. Retired from the USN after 20 yrs and 4000 flight hours flying every kind of bu**-ugly helicopter they had.
You're right about the cajun food - most folks around here try to learn cajun cooking.
You da man, with that exercise routine and chloresterol numbers you mentioned in another post. I think If I could "doubletime 5 miles" for five days in a row, I would treat myself to a cajun fish fry. I don't exercise as much as I should in winter.
Take care in the shop. Ed
Ed
If I can ever get back to the shop. Been pushing a project about 12 to 14 hours a day there and just taking a few off. I been through Meridian several times. You are most certainly correct about how ugly those Navy choppers are. ha..ha..
Glad to see you did your 20. About 3 and some Russian RPG shrapnel was enough to convince me I wasn't being paid enough as E-5. Things have changed a lot in that area I hear.
Have a good evening and holler if you need anything...
sarge..jt
Billy
Your quite welcome. I did not have to modify the saw in that area as it already had the guts set up with a rivving knife. The rest of the saw is highly modified. Get your laugh out of the way, but it's a Ryobi BT3000 which has the Euro gut set up so the rivving knife moves up, down, to the angle with the blade. Yep, a $400 (at that time) saw you can buy from HD with a rivving knife and a bunch of other goodies you can't find on an American saw.
As Ed posted, I also grew up with American saws. They're great, until you get to safety. The first thing you do is throw away that dam- guillotine anti-kickback pawl Lexan pain-in-the-arse whatever it supposed to be and you're on your own.ha..ha.. Unfortunately, the way American saws are built inside does not allow for the addition of even a home-made rivving knife. Both contractor and cabinet are lacking the ability to attach without extremely heavy modification. If you are curious to know how the rivving knife moves with the blade, try this. Go to HD and crawl under a Ryobi 3000 and look at how the knife attached to the same mechanism that moves fthe blade. Then look at your contractor or cabinet and see that they have used and outside gaurd that attaches to the arse of the saw.
The only thing you can do is provide an over-head gaurd or improve what you've got with a decent splitter. But it is good to know how the rivving knife works. Then, and only then you can legitimately complain about the short-coming of the current system being used on the American saw.
I am not here to knock American made. I fly the American flag 20 feet high from the front of my house. I have a red-white and blue wood-shop that is called the "Spirit of America Woodshop". I served the U.S. with 75th Ranger Reg. VN with 2 bronze stars and a Purple Heart. I am an Amercan and I would not hesitate to defend it again.
Do I think the American gaurd system we currently have is an engineering marvel. Nope... It's a peice of junk and mine is in the garbage can along with 10's of thousands of others. I was fortunate enough to be able to adapt the crown and knife. Most are not. Yes, any type splitter or gaurd that is an improvement over what came stock is a step toward being safer. Remember, the operator is the most improtant safety device that a saw can have.
If you have any questions, I will try to answer. At least you, as I did about a year ago took time to research and understand this subject. More intelligent conversation can be had when all parties are open minded and have done their home-work. I applaud you for taking that time to learn...
Have a great day....
sarge..jt
Wow, I'd love to sit down with you and have a long chat. And see your shop. I'm a young fart, but have been very fascinated with WWII and Vietnam for years. Not much in the Korean war, though I've never figured out why. I've read dozens of books written by Vietnam vets. Just read one about the LRRP's that was quite interesting, as were the ones about the Seals in Nam. Always more interesting to talk to the people who did the things in the books then read about them. Years ago I read much of Time Life's Vietnam war series, and am currently reading a book that is just getting to the actual fighting, after about 300 pages of history. Now have a much better idea of how we got into Vietnam in the first place. Diem was just killed, and Johnson decided to put 44 divisions in, first time we put in combat troops rather then advisers.
Well, if Ryobi sells a saw with a riving knife, it must not be illegal in the US. I'd guess that like me most woodworkers are ignorant on riving knives, and most other safety devices. Heck in high school shop there was no splitter, no kickback fingers, and the overarm blade gaurd while there was never rotated around and used. I'd hope they do better now, but the drafting teacher who taught the shop probably didn't know any better. Though he was a fair woodworker, in retrospect he knew nothing about glueing up solid panels to lesson warpage, and many other things you'd expect a woodworking teacher to know. I built a solid desk out of Alder in that class. His advice, straighten the edges and dowel the widest boards you can together to minimize joints. Turned out good. 2 months later the sides were big curves and I knocked it apart to fix it. Finally just used em for firewood.
As far as current US safety gaurds, they're cheap junk, the stock ones I've seen anyway. As a mechanical designer, I know it'd be easy to design in a riving knife. Manufacturers are gonna have to scrap a lot of molds and tooling and replace it to add one to existing designs though. Never gonna happen unless there's a demand, which there won't be unless people are exposed to them, and good ones. Didn't you say you tossed yours because the original one was junk? Junk ones won't help.
Guess I should crawl under my saw and see if there's any possible way to add a mounting surface on the blade arbor. Though it'll definately require some machining to do so. Sounds like a good challenge.
But, you're right, the operator is always the most important factor in safety. I have to design safety gaurds, light curtains, ect. into equipment. Some bozo always figures out a way around them. Or when we send out service people they've been removed or wired around.
But, sometimes we have to put in stupid gaurds that are either mandated, or the customer insists on to keep their lawyers happy. Some of these make things more dangerous, but heaven help you if someone is hurt and you didn't put an industry standard gaurd on. Even if doing so was stupid. Never sad to see those things shelved, people actually have to build things with these machines after all, and I have pictures to prove we provided them, and there are warnings in the manual not to remove them.
Guess I just did have a long, one sided chat with you. Gees, I sound like an old woman at a tea party sometimes.
Enjoy.
Billy
Ha..ha.. See if you can design one that will retro-fit. My friend TJ the mech engineer thought the entire guts would have to be re-worked to pull it off. You may have the knack to pull it off.
In the mean-time, just exercise common sense and personal safety and come up with a decent, working splitter that works on your saw.
Keep up the enthusiasm with the learning, I learn new stuff about this fascinating craft every day...
sarge..jt
Ah, a splitter'd be easy. I know exactly how I want to do that. But putting in a riving knife, now that's a challenge.
Actually though, I've been putting off building any safety stuff for a while, though I did make some feather boards that help tons. And I've built some good push blocks. Still need to build a cross-cut sled.
I'll have to look. Seems like the entire blade assembly on my old Rockwell saw is mounted on two big parallel shafts. If so, and there's room on the shafts I'd have to build a block that mounts to both shafts that the riving knife then mounts to. Kind of stuff I do at work all the time, but that's only if I remember correctly what the mechanism looks like.
Maybe I'll look this weekend, though w/ a kids slumber party, firewood that needs brought in, a leak around my chimney that needs fixed, church, and a dinner party tommorow; it won't be much of a look.
Have a good weekend.
Billy
Billy,
I was just looking at my Delta with the intent of trying out Sarge's riving knife. Mines got the shafts but the only thing that raises with the blade is the bearing holder/arbor shaft assembly. I'm trying to figure out how I'd mount a knife to the rather small surface. If your saw is the same way, and you get an idea, I could use an idea. Thanks guys.
Steve
Steve
Let me correct you on Sarge's riving knife. I wish I could take credit for riving knifes but they were being used long b-4 I even knew what they were. Someone was very clever though, I agree.
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
Billy
The world has waited this long, it can wait a little longer. Give it a look and if you could come up with something, there would be a lot of folks interested. It's better to try and fail, than not to even try.
Sounds like you got things to do, roll...
sarge..jt
Hey Sarge
This weekend was even busier then it was supposed to be, but I did look at the saw mechanism for a couple minutes.
It looked like it would be doable, though whoever said the 2 parallel shafts don't raise and lower was right.
Havn't decided if I'll spend the time to do it or not yet. Though, it's a similar problem to things that come up at work all the time. We often have to figure out ways to mount sensors, cameras ect. near an automated welding torch head. Often in glove boxes or other tight situations.
I drew a quick sketch, though the sketch doesn't look workable, it seemed like it would be in real life. But, I'd have to take some measurements with the blade all the way up and tipped all the way over first to see exactly how much space there is.
The blade arbor rides on a pivot arm that has an H shape. I'll do a simple sketch. I have no desire to compromise the arm structure, so I'd drill no holes in it, though that'd be much simpler, might cause a nasty failure. So, I'd build 2 clamp blocks and tie them together w/ a plate. I drew one. 2 blocks because it's simpler, straight slots instead of angles, and it's easier to add a plate later then get exact measurements up front. And, w/ 2 blocks I have a safety backup in case one works loose. Though w/ this setup, I'd put set screws into the side of the screw in the top block to lock them in place
I'm overtalking. To attatch a riving knife, the goal is to add a mounting surface to the assembly that has a constant relation to the blade. It moves up and down equally, and tilts equally w/ the blade.
The clamp blocks would give a mounting surface. Then, the trick is to attatch a mounting bracket to the blocks and attatch the riving knife to that.
I'll have to look closer and do some measuring, but if I got this one at work, I'd do it. The question I havn't answered, is will I take the 10-20 hrs. this project would require to do? That much shop time is hard to come by in my personal life.
I will look closer, and at least tell you if this idea is feasible. I've found, that usually, the first idea I come up with ends up being the best one. Even after I've come up with 10 more. But, sometimes, the first idea misses a crucial detail that makes it unworkable. Not to brag<G>.
Interesting challenge, now I need some time to see if it'll work.
Now, go make some sawdust.
Billy
Billy
If you attempt as you're toying with and don't succeed, nothing is lost. If you were to succeed there would be a lot of people intested including possiblitlities of Lee Valley, etc.
Do what your time allows as most of us file in the very limited time bracket. ha..ha..
Good luck with the venture and shout if I can help...
sarge..jt
Thanks for the offer of help. If I get stuck I'll borrow a digital camera and see if you have any ideas.
I moved the blade around some yesterday.
Due to the blade I'd only be attatch on the pulley side of the bracket, not much clearance on the other.
Another spot looked better, but I would be unable to crank my blade totally below the top, so it's out.
One of these days I'll actually start making some measurements and see what can be done.
I've just about decided to do this. But, last night I had to help a friend move. He got messed over in a crooked real estate deal. Lost a ton of money. Sometimes I wish arson was an option, easier to fight back if you have no conscience.
Oh well, that's for his lawyer to handle.
Be well.
Billy
Oh, I assume Lee Valley makes tools or some such. I've heard the name is all. Who are they? Someone I should know about?
Billy
Yep, Lee Valley and many others make a host of specialty tools. Explore you wood mags and goe to the advertisers listing in the rear. Most companies have a web-site. Go explore and a whole new horizon will porbaly open to you on things that are available that you never heard of.
Keep tinkering and continue your curiousity, you've got a fun ride ahead. Me thinks...
sarge..jt
Billy,
Lee Valley is a pretty extensive company. Garden tools to hardware. The quality seems to be above average on all of their stuff with the high end stuff being great quality. They have three catalogs (free for the asking I think) hardware, tools, gardening. Some good brand name tools and some of their Veritas brand. Excellent service too. Check out their planes. Very ingenious. Also a great source for those rare earth magnets. http://www.leevalley.com
I envy your sketching ability, mine tend to look like something my daughter threw together. I'm the one who posted about the two shafts not moving with the blade. I've been following Sarges and your dialog with interest. If you come up with a technique for mounting the riving knife to the Delta/Rockwell, I hope you let us know.
Steve
Believe me, if I figure something out, I'll brag here.
No one else would understand or care.
I really need to find some local woodworkers.
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out when I get time
Cheers
Billy
Well said Sarge, I don’t want to get involve in this discussion either, because it’s been done to death. But I believe that if you don’t like what the manufactures provide as safety equipment then you should do whatever it takes to make yourself safe. I like you have taken the initiative and modified my equipment and built a blade guard that works for me and install a shut off switch. I focus on safety and try not to do anything stupid.
My 2¢. Regards,
RickL
P.S. Here I'm responding to thread 33 and just notice it's now in the 80's. Well don't mind me I tend to be a little slow sometimes. I guess better late then never.
Edited 2/13/2003 8:36:16 AM ET by R!CKL
Edited 2/13/2003 8:42:49 AM ET by R!CKL
RICKL,
With all due respect, I don't think the issue of safety can be "done to death" unless of course one DOES NOT think about safety.
Let's get a few things straight. Euro-style table saws have clear advantages over North American-style saws. Also, North American-style saws have some clear advantages over Euro-style saws. There are also a few debatable areas, where it's not clear who is better. The question is, what combination of improved features and safety is most important to you?
Generally speaking, there is no question that Euro-style saws are safer machines. The riving knife/crown guard is a million miles ahead of the safety devices on most North American saws. That's a simple fact, proved by the fact that 99% of American woodworkers remove all factory-provided safety devices. Euro-style saws also have more features built-in which are "extras" on North American-style saws (sliding tables, scoring attachment, better dust collection).
Now, North American table saws have a couple of advantages. First, North American-style fences are generally better than Euro-style fences. However, this is becoming less of an issue as Euro-style saws begin to develop better fences. Also, it is easier to see a North American-style saw in person.
The factors that are debatable are the overall fit and finish. Another factor is the grade of cast-iron used in machine parts. Also, service issues.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Let me say something about adding your own safety devices to a saw. You are using Sarge as an example, but keep something in mind -- Sarge started off with a Ryobi BT3000, a machine that has incorporated a Euro-style riving knife into its design, so it's lot easier for Sarge to modify his saw into something even better. However, most North American table saws (Delta, Jet, Grizzly, General, etc.) do not come equipped with riving knives, so one could not alter them the way Sarge altered his Ryobi. Personally, I owned a Ryobi BT3100 for about one month, and it gave me nothing but trouble. Yes, it had nice safety features, and it has a sliding table built in, but the motor was underpowered and the sliding table took me hours to align and re-align all the time. So, it's nice to have Euro-style features, but the whole package has to work well.
Mathew,
About my comment on this subject being "done to death" I simply meant that I had no interest on re-visiting it again as I have done many times before. I did not mean that safety was not important or that you or anyone else was not entitled to continue this discussion till your hearts content. In saying that I’ll bow out and let you continue your discussion with others.
Good luck,
RickL
P.S. I didn’t mean to use Sarge as an example I was simply pointing out that woodworkers like him and me and I’m sure many others, took it upon our selves to make our environment safer according to our needs, instead of waiting for the manufactures.
Note to self: T h i n k b e f o r e y o u t y p e. LOL.
Matthew
And to you well said. All that you stated is absolutely correct. If you read carefully, I don't think Rick overlooks safety. Quite the opposite. If everyone has read my post in this thread carefully, they should see I have stated all I had to do to modify my saw was build two better riving knifes as the BT 3000 is already set up for one. I designed and built the removable crown gaurd.
And you are correct about the 3000. The power is not there if you are pushing thick hardwoods. The slider is a problem to keep aligned in it's stock state. It has aluminum tables (I prefer cast iron) and the stand is not heavy enough to help dampen virbration. This could be expected from a new $300 saw. But, it has potential in the modified state.
This is why I jumped on one for $120 in a yard sale. With the help of a close friend (TJ is a mechanical engineer), a large protion was modified to accomodate a larger motor. We added an extra belt (now 3 short belts) and made them serpentine. The table which is alum was ground down to .001 flat. The slider was beefed up and re-inforced to eliminate slop and I built a custom maple cabinet from shorts that added to weight and strenght to eliminate any vibration. Machining was done by my BIL and the guys at Delta Airlines on their lunch breaks over a 3 month period. The results turned out well, but this is not cost worthy for the average person. ( I just like to tinker )
I believe all Rick was stating was he has X to work with. He can not factor in Y and Z as the foundation is not laid properly to accomodate them. So the alternative is to make whatever modifications can be made to make the saw a safer machine and the rest of the safety issues would be left in the capable hands of the operator. Which, if we think about it is where safety starts. The most important link in the chain.
Now I can go cut some round counter patterns. What kind of saw did you replace your 3000 with. I have thought about it, but the amount of usage I could give it does not justify some of the prices out there. I guess my old junk saw at under $300 will suffice at the moment. It cuts prefectly straight and I just used the slider to size panels for a 40' parts counter I'm building. I ripped about 800 linear feet of 16' stock for supports and moulding. Not a bog and a perfect 2 3/16" rip using the short fence. I guess I'll give it another try. It's sitting down there begging for more now. It's just a Ryobi. Wonder what I could do if I had one of those good saws everybody else has. ha..ha..
Yep, a ton of modifications and not worth it for the average person. Your absolutely correct..........
Have a good day...
sarge..jt
Thanks Sarge and good luck with that counter.
Regards,
RickL
Rick
Thanks, I'll need it. I cheated with the counter. Never done anyting this large before. Dan Kornfield from Oddessey in Wood up in Boston and Richard Jones (aka Sgain Dubh and Slainte) gave a little assist on methods. So far, great as 30' are already installed.
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Thanks for your great reply. You are obviously an accomplished woodworker, doing everything you do with both the wood and the machine!
Rick, just want you to know, I am not criticizing you. Of course we all have to be able to use our heads and not rely totally on manufacturers for safety. Knowledge goes a lot further than equipment! I guess I was just commenting on the choice of words ("done to death" etc.) and how ironic it is when talking about safety.
Of course, operator skill and knowledge are extremely important. But we should be clear -- not every woodworking accident has to do with the skill of the operator. I think it is important for woodworkers to understand that there are certain scenarios where a danger arises, even when you are doing everything correctly. And in those circumstances, it is better to have the advanced safety equipment found on Euro-style saws. For example, while ripping a piece of wood, it may open out or twist, and in that case it may touch a top tooth of the saw blade. Or, from a density difference within the wood, contact with the saw blade can cause the entire piece of wood to lift upward. If either of these things happen, it doesn't matter how skilled you are -- within a millisecond that wood is coming back at you. If you are using a standard North American splitter, you're still likely to get whacked because they don't cover the top teeth of the saw blade (if the guard is removed altogether then you've got absolutely nothing). However, if you have a riving knife and a crown guard, this danger is all but eliminated since the wood is pushed away from the teeth and the crown guard keeps the wood downward. Again, I bring this up to say that not everything depends on the skill of the operator.
I think Sarge's input sheds light on the heart of the matter. if the Ryobi BT3x00, a $300-$400 saw, can incorporate a Euro-style riving knife, why can't $1,100 - $2,300 Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, and General saws do the same?
Sarge, to answer your question: when I got rid of the Ryobi BT3100, I did not buy another saw. This is actually the reason I started this thread. As I have looked around at my options, I see that none of the North American saws have what I want for safety. But because of funding limitations, I have to buy one of them. My choices currently are a Ridgid 3612, a Grizzly 1022PROZ, and a Bridgewood.
Matthew
I don't consider myself a great WW. A good WW, maybe. I got another 30 years to go with all this stuff I designed and built to figure out how to put a finish on it. ha..ha..
With the two post before this one from Rick to you and you to Rick, I will say this...Good work gentlemen.. Now you're cooking with butane. Communication is the cornerstone of knowledge. Once we learn to communicate, we can take it to a serious level..
Ya'll have a great day and keep up the thinking...
sarge..jt
Matthew,
Your discussion of the phenomenon of kickback makes it sound like you are playing russian roulette with your saw everytime you perform a simple ripping operation.
I don't know if you actually use a tablesaw, or if you are approaching the concept from an academic point of view, but the idea that you have formed about this is just plain wrong.
I agree that kickback develops so rapidly that you can't react. I've seen it happen in a cabinet shop to a careless person. But the reason it develops in the first place is because you are doing something wrong. People who use their saws with care, skill and great regard for personal safety can go thirty years and never see kickback happen. Simple, simple safety rules, used every single time, WORK.
There is no reason for stock to move to the back of the blade and there is no reason for it to lift up off the table. If I'm trying to rip some stock and it starts to try to do either of these things, I immediately turn the saw off and throw the stock into a bin labelled "Exorcist Magic Voodoo Stock" and pick some other lumber to rip. That's an oversimplification, I know - I've ripped some pressure-treated lumber before that would act extremely funky when ripped - but I didn't let it get into the back of the blade. Sometimes you just gotta stop and get a circular saw and two saw horses, or even a handsaw.
If using your saw was like playing russian roulette and you were subject to having a stick embedded in your forehead at any moment, no matter how skilled and careful you were (the logical conclusion of your argument), then everyone in Georgia who didn't have a riving guard like Sarge should immediately stop using their tablesaw. There is some sort of Georgia Woodworkers Guild (accessible through the Highland Hardware web site) - maybe you should write to them and tell them that, Matthew.
Sorry to put it like this, and I'm done arguing about it, but you are simply wrong about the idea that people using American-style tablesaws have no way to use safety procedures to completely prevent kickback. Ed
Ed,
OK, I need to clarify my level of my woodworking experience.
Yes, I have used a table saw. My first table saw was a Jet contractor, then I owned a Ryobi BT31000. Now I am looking for a better saw, one that can be used for the longer-term.
No, I have never personally experienced kickback. Before ever using a table saw, I read everything I could find on table saw use, I consulted with other woodworkers, and I attended a local woodworking class.
I know what you're thinking -- if I have never experienced kickback, why am I getting all worried about it? Well, I'm aware that I have not logged in as many hours as other woodworkers, so there has always been a nagging feeling that I am bound to experience kickback eventually. I am planning to increase the number of hours I spend in the shop, and to go along with that I am also looking for a more serious table saw.
All of this got me thinking...is kickback something that can be avoided, or is it something that is just bound to happen eventually and all I can do is be prepared for it? This is really the crux of my anxiety. Then I started thinking, "Well, if kickback is something that is bound to happen eventually, then I need to get a saw with safety equipment that minimizes the chances of kickback." That led directly to my questions about North American-style safety equipment versus Euro-style safety equipment.
So, your post opens up another way of looking at this. Are you saying that if I follow all the correct procedures -- which I do -- I won't ever have a situation where I'll be in serious danger? I ask this question honestly. As I said, my anxiety is that my experience on a table saw just hasn't been extensive enough to experience kickback. But maybe this is a bad way to look at it. Maybe I've been brainwashed by marketers of safety equipment into thinking kickback is inevitable. I don't know.
I'd like to learn as much as I can from people with more experience than me.
Edited 2/13/2003 9:17:45 PM ET by Matthew Schenker
Matthew,
Just a quick question, is kickback really that dangerous? I guess the closest I've ever come to it was a knot popping out of a chunk of pine. It hit me because it came at a 45 degree angle from the blade, but it was kind of like being punched by a 3 year old. I've never seen a true grab the board and throw it across the room kickback. I use a Biesmeyer fence and like you said earlier about good fences, I think it adds to the safety. I'm just curious about how dangerous kickback can actually be.
Steve
Well, I think someone, maybe JDG, said about 3 or 4 dozen posts ago, if you keep the work flat on the table, make sure everytime that the fence is parallel to the blade, and keep the work snug against the fence, it's not going to kickback on you. The only chance its got at that point is if it is so severely distressed that it wants to distort as soon as the blade starts to rip it open. But you should be able to tell at that point. You will get a different sound and vibration as it tries to squeeze its way to the back of the blade. Time to turn the saw off. Pressure treated lumber is sometimes like this. The nasty stuff is still wet, almost always cupped, warped, etc., to some degree. No one wants to face joint it, thickness plane, etc - shoot no one wants that dust in their shop. But sometimes if you're building things like decks, fences, gates, wheelchair ramps, etc., it is quick and handy to rip it on the TS. Practice on that stuff and you will begin to get a feel for what boards are too "f"ed up to be ripped on the TS.
I think the golden rules are to keep the work flat on the table, keep the fence parallel to the blade, and keep the work snug against the fence. Outfeed support is a must. If, you'll notice, Sarge had a featherboard-like jig coming downward from his fence to hold the work down flat on the table. I think Roger Cliffe had a good idea in his tablesaw book to attach an auxiliary fence 7 inches hich to your regular fence. You can attach a downward-angled featherboard to that. Higher aux fences than that get in the way of your push sticks. Which by the way, pushsticks should have all edges rounded over and sanded in the unlikely event that they do become missiles. I like to paint the bottom four inches of my push sticks red to remind myself that my fingers don't need to come withtin four inches of the blade, but that borders more on the superstitious. I also have a picture of my Fender Stratocaster mounted on the overhead above my TS to remind myself that it would be hard to play "Layla" if I were missing some fingers.
So yes, I think you can work safely on your saw and never see kickback happen. I think that people that make cabinets and furniture (1000s of them in MS) and never read FWW or this forum, do it all the time. I think the people that it happens to are usually inattentive, goofing off, doing something stupid, or totally inexperienced, 90 percent of the time. I know my Dad used a tablesaw for 40 some years and never had a kickback accident. And I've used one for a cumulative 10 years, I'd say (I did work in a cabinet shop one summer).
That's my two cents worth. Ed
Oh yeah, forgot to mention. I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Edited 2/13/2003 11:58:02 PM ET by Ed from Mississippi
Ed
Did you get a kick-back for mentioning Holiday Inn. ha..ha..
I have experienced kick-back once in 30 years. I always measure twice and cut one. I do that on the set-up on my TS blade and fence alignment too. I was distracted by my teen-ager and I set the rear of the fence to close to the blade. This is an invitation for pinch. If you blew it and set it too lose, this would not cause a safety problem. Now there is a shop rule: If you hear a machine running, do not enter my shop till it is not. This eliminates distraction. I also try to schedule cutting for earlier in the day when I am alert and lighter duties for later.
Can kick-back hurt you? Go back in the Knots archives and read from some of those that have experienced it. Do you always get hurt. No, I didn't. I was lucky I had the lane clear. The stock did knock a hole in the sheet-rock behind the saw that is 16 feet away. Damaged the second piece behind it on an interior wall. Have I always used a riving knife and crown gaurd. Nope. Didn't use anything till the riving knife came 3 years ago and the crown 9 months ago. Am I afraid of my saw. Nope. But you bet your sweet arse that I respect it and use common sense when I operate it or any piece of machinery.
I covered don't lay anything on top of the fence. I will add that when ripping stock a splitter or riving knife will not always gaurantee the stock stays split. The wet lumber you mentioned. It will close after it clears the splitter on occasion. I keep about 5 or 6 plastic shim-it's in my shop apron. I lift one eye momentarily from the stock-blade contact and watch for close. If it starts to occur, I hit the kill switch and wait for the blade to come to a complete stop. Then walk to the back of the saw and place a splitter shim in the kerf. Another 2 or 3 feet of stock will usually produce it again on a wet piece. Repeat the process.
Hopefully something here might be relevant to the conversation. If not, disregard.
Have a great evening...
sarge..jt
Good morning, Sarge,
How's it going? Thanks for the info - good gouge. Did I read somewhere that you said that the folks at Delta helped you with some of the machining? Can you get them to put one of them there riving knives on my saw? Also I have some mods for my truck in mind to make it more aerodynamic - just need a little more downforce on the back end to help me come up off the corners - I'm sure them boys at Delta could do it! Just kidding,...I have had Speedweeks from Daytona on TV and watching too much of it in my shop.
I liked looking at the photos of your saw and your router table. I can tell just by looking at the photos that you really take care of your tools and get every possible bit of performance and safety out of them. I am getting ready to build a new router table. I am thinking about that new Milwaukee router that you can adjust depth from the base (which would be the top when mounted in the table) I have a Sears Craftsman "Professional" Router table now with a Sears 3HP Craftsman "Professional" Router mounted in it now and the whole machine is so terrible I am ready to chuck the whole thing and start over with a shop-built router table.
About kerfs closing up on the table saw - I recently built a wooden tackle box. Once I had the four sides glued up, finger joints, no nails or screws, I needed to cut the top 2 inches off to be the lid. I don't think I could have done it on your saw with the crown guard in place. I cut two sides, then put shims in the kerf and taped both sides with duct tape, then cut the third side, same procedure with securing the kerf, then the fourth side. The point is, that's the kind of thing I could have got into kickback with - doing something unusual, a big and unweildy piece on the saw table, hands in unusual positions, and if I hadn't shimmed and secured the kerfs as I went along, it could've tried to close up on the back of the blade and kickback.
Well sorry about the long post. Have a good day, Sarge. Ed
Ed
I also have to remove the crown guard for any thru-cut, dado and a special cut like that. If I need an extremely narrow rip, I have built two short fences. One has a 4" flat extension 2" tall on the blade side. This gives a fence and the main fence is sitting 4" from the blade to give sufficient room for push stick and hand clearance. In the cases of the special cuts, you do what you have to do and be darn careful.
Good luck with the router table. It is a super time saver from hand-held as you don't have to repeatly clamp to set up for a pass hand-held. The Milwaukee is a good table mount. Their are several good choices. If you are following the current thread Router Table Mount ( think that's it), several good ideas and methods have been discussed.
My wife amd I are also big NASCAR fans. I have been since 1965 when I attended my first race here in Atlanta. New track then. Got to know Bill Elliot pretty well as my wifes best friend works at the Dawsonville facilities. I kid about being a country boy. Bill is true country boy right down to the deep southern accent. He hails from what used to be moonshine country in those N. Ga. hills. ha..ha..
Round counter on hold temporarily, got the call for 4 priority engine stands for new showroom display by Monday. I swore I would never do this outside the family. Don't like deadlines but this is turning out to be a great little deal on the side for my company. I can sneak and check the computer on coffee break. Have to go as I have a material run to make and work to do when it's in the shop.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Well, all of this has been extremely interesting to me, and very informative. It takes a kind of rough-and-tumble discussion sometimes to pull out useful information. As long as everyone stays cordial with each other, everyone can benefit in the end.
Thanks to all the more advanced woodworkers for your input. As a kind of mid-level woodworker myself, believe me, all of this helps. I hope a few other mid-level woodworkers might benefit from this discussion as well.
In the end, I do feel a lot better about trusting North American-style equipment.
Of course, I am still left with a decision to make. Right now, I have a shop with no table saw, and I have to choose one soon.
I'm considering the following saws, all about $600:
Ridgid TS3612
Grizzly 1022PROZ
Bridgewood TSC-10CL
Each one of these saws has its own advantages and disadvantages, so it is a really close call for me.
Thanks again everyone for your honest input.
Edited 2/14/2003 4:12:57 PM ET by Matthew Schenker
Matt, since you don't have the funds for a Euro table saw it doesn't do you much good to complain that American companies don't have adequate safety features. I won't get into the details, but a decent Euro saw costs what it costs for a reason. So if American manufacturers put riving knifes and sliding tables on their saws you wouldn't be able to afford a saw at all, or they would be so poorly made that they wouldn't function properly.
Rick
Well said, and I understand precisely what your comments state. I learned when I first came to the forum to read a post very carefully before I respond. Then if there is doubt, ask the poster to clarify before you respond with your opinion.
A note, we all know to keep the lane clear, properly align the front and rear of the fence to the blade, proper feed rate and total attention to how the saw and stock are reacting to each other. I will add one factor that is sometimes over-looked.... Don't sit anything, including your push stick on top of the fence. Don't even do it when the saw is not running, as sometimes we forget to remove. If you do, it will eventually catch up with you and you may regret it.
I have seen this many times, especially with new-comers. If vibrations or accidentally the object gets bumped, you just created your own missle system when the blade gaurd is removed. Just a closing thought.
Keep alert and keep thinking safety as you do...
sarge..jt
R
What is the classic response to slainte? My grandfather always had the same reply
As far as safety goes nothing will ever be fool proof, idiots are far too clever. We have to ask ourselves at what point is the quest for safety going to become redundant.
Mark,
You miss a critical point. The government did not come up with any of these innovations. The car makers did. They introduced a new feature to sell more cars. Good ideas, like most of the ones you listed were eventually mandated but only after someone else came up with them. Why do we need to have a law saying what each car must have? I think the market would decide what it wanted and those features deemed worth spending money on would very rapidly become standard.
Us woodworking types are a unique lot. We have a diverse backgroud and vision. We do however share the patience and imagination required to turn a tree into whatever we want. This is not a trait shared by most of the population and I contend that this would make use different then the norm. Why then should I accept that a government employee, not located in my shop (thank God), should know enough about my passion, to be able to tell me what is safe and what is not? How many different ways are there to cut boards on a tablesaw? Then is it safe to say that no law could effectively prevent injury by just addressing one method of doing it? I think you get my point. The government, by trying to "protect" us from ourselves, causes contempt against itself. If they want to test things and give recomendations, fine, but to mandate something is a completely different thing. The various local building codes could be considered another example of laws gone bad. I think that if the government gets out of the way of business, that leads to a vibrant marketplace.
Hey this is fun!
Steve
Well, you're just wrong about it, but I suppose if that suits you, what the heck!
You think the safety features in your car and home were just cleverly put their by enterprising companies looking for your business? You couldn't be more wrong. Almost every safety component - those you take for granted - was mandated by government over the objection of industry.
Think about it for a moment, Steve. Suppose there were no government requirements and every company were left to its own. Sure, companies would now and again advertise safety features that appealed to consumers, but there would be two insurmountable problems. One, most safety features would be unexciting to consumers and would not seem worth the extra $100 or whatever, because consumers would assume "It can't happen to me." Thus, you'd have lots more deaths and injuries because of the unrealistic actuarial assumptions of consumers.
But even more to the point, can you imagine if every consumer had to inform himself as to all of the safety features of his car, his home, his workplace, etc., so as to make an informed decision? We can't even figure out our mobile phone calling plans, for god's sake! There would just be an impossibly large overload of information that couldn't get processed and therefore wouldn't do any good.
So what would a reasonable group of people do in such a situation? They would appoint a committee of their peers to decide what safety features should be included in a car or a house. Doesn't that make more sense? And that is exactly what we have done - we call that committee "government." The process certainly has flaws and excesses, but it is clearly superior to the alternative.
The point you have to understand is this is not bad for the capitalist marketplace, but absolutely imperative. Today's consumer knows that when he walks into a car dealership the vehicles will meet government safety requirements, and he knows when he walks into a grocery store that the food will as well. I know when I buy a car from you that the car meets the government's safety requirements - I don't need to ask you what safety features you chose when you bought the car. With these assumptions, even if he is not conciously aware of them, the consumer can merrily go about buying the car based on its looks and sex appeal. Without these assumptions the consumer marketplace would simply die.
As an aside, the same dynamic is at work on Wall Street. You would not buy stocks and mutual funds if it were not for the implicit blessing from the Securities and Exchange Commission that the numbers being reported are accurate. Last summer we saw (i) the natural tendency of some business people to distort the numbers for their own personal benefit, and (ii) the effect on the market when the accuracy of the numbers is brought into question.
So this concept that "business would know best if government would just get out of the way" is a bunch of mularky. It may be a conveniently simplistic way of looking at the world that allows people to focus their unhappiness at that big anonymous "government," but it doesn't hold up to even 10 seconds of scrutiny.
I've been avoiding this, but I have to say this. These automobile saftey features were available long before they were mandated by the gov't. They were options no different then any other option. If you wanted them, you bought and paid for them. They were not available on all models, granted. These devices being mandated today are no more a product of our gov't then sliced cheese. You can thank the money of the insurance lobbiests for these devices being mandated. Funny thing is, insurance rates haven't gone down. Even the weight restrictions for fuel effienciency came about because of the insurance lobbyists. Plastic is less expensive when it comes to repairs. 5 years after my father retired from FoMoCo he was still getting called to hearings to testify on this crap. Nope, this stuff didn't happen because of the good graces of our gov't, but it did happen because of the money from the lobbiests. Good or bad, I don't know, but I think these devices should be options and let the insurance rates fall where they may.
Don
BTW, every state that has madatory seat belt laws---well, this law also came about because of the insurance industry, not the good graces of the gov't.
Edited 2/7/2003 9:54:28 AM ET by Don C.
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You are telling me with a straight face that all of the safety features of today's automobiles - airbags, anti-rollover characteristics, anti-shatter glass and all the rest - government has played no part in the mandatory implementation of all of these devices and that it is actually all a plot by the insurance companies to deprive consumers of choice.
And all local building codes, with mandatory smoke detectors and such other nonsense, this is all a product of insurance companies policing the market and has nothing to do with government.
And meat inspection requirements for food, and all of the other consumer-safety provisions of the FDA - all insurance companies.
And the disclosure requirements of the Securities & Exchange Commission, which give consumers the confidence to buy stocks and bonds - these requirements, which were fought over tooth and nail in the early 1930s between legislators like Sam Rayburn of Texas, representing the public, and the giant trusts of the day - these requirements were actually not the result of government action but in reality were dreamed up by insurance companies (which were owned by these same giant trusts).
Ok. If that's is your perception of the world, you're welcome to it.
It may well be true that someone in private industry invented the airbag and the non-lethal steering column and the smoke detector and so forth, and that government's role was to mandate the requirement. That does not diminish the role of government in a healthy capitalist economy.
Nor does it diminish the role of government to note that too much government is just as bad as not enough government. That is really the whole point of my posts. The balance between too much and not enough government is something we need to struggle with all the time, and reasonable people can and do differ. What is so annoying to me is the self-imposed ignorance of those who blather on about how bad government is, while blithely enjoying all of the comforts and protections it affords them on a day-to-day basis.
Mark,
You really need to study how gov't works more then what you portray. First you confuse regulatory agencies with law. That's a big mistake. The processes are really different. Second, you confuse state and local guidelines with the federal gov't. There are no federal building codes as there are no federal licensing requirments for contractors.
When it comes to what is mandated in automobiles, yes, they are the result of congressional hearings concerning automobile saftey. The same thing is going on right now concerning SUV's. The insurance companies are for SUV's though. They are safer. So, until public opinion overwhelms, don't expect SUV's rules to change.
There is nothing here to argue. The congressional record is the congressional record. Read it or don't. I don't care, but you are wrong.
Don
The congressional record is the congressional record. Read it or don't. I don't care, but you are wrong.
What in the world does that have to do with anything we've been talking about? Did I say something about SUVs that I missed?
Mark,
Read the congressional record if you want to know the real history of automobile saftey devices. I mention SUV's because they are a hot topic now. No where will you find any regulatory agency discussing this issue(except maybe epa and is it a car or truck for pollution questions). Since you brought up all those regulatory agencies, it seemed apropo. I'm not surprised you didn't make the connection since you confuse gov't bashing with accepting the role money plays in politics and discussing gov't process accordingly.
Don
Edited 2/7/2003 11:08:20 AM ET by Don C.
Let's find something to agree on! I am completely on board with you at the corruption of the political process, and the role money plays. Too often I think money keeps government from fulfilling its role, as witnessed by the Enron scandal. Enron poured money into political races (it was our current president's largest single supporter) and the politicians, in turn, made sure that Enron wasn't subject to the regulation it should have been. Surely this is the rule rather than the exception, with industry and its pet politicians predictably fighting against every effort at consumer protection (example: just months after nominally enacting important reforms at the SEC last summer, business-supported politicians tried to scuttle the reforms in the autumn). But I'm sure this sometimes works the other way, and that regulations are implemented to benefit one party at the expense of another or the consumer.
Here's a broad statement to ponder and perhaps disagree with. In the history of the United States there have principally been two powerful institutions: industry and the government. Given our capitalist system, industry has always been the more powerful of the two, and at times in our history - late in the 19th century during the Gilded Age and early in this century in the years leading up to the Great Depression - industry has become so powerful as to nearly bring the country and its democracy to ruin. Government has been the one force powerful enough to save industry from its own excesses. The reforms resulting in the Securites & Exchange Commission, harshly criticized as socialism by industry at the time, turned out to be the savior of capitalism. Consumer protection laws, including those advocated by Ralph Nader, turned out to trigger an explosion of consumer spending the likes of which the world has never seen. So. . . .industry will always be complaining about the role of government, but in the big picture it is important that both institutions survive and balance one another. The hard job is knowing just what that balance should be at any particular time.
This discussion has clearly taken on a more general tone. Table saws have become just an example for a much larger discussion about American corporate responsibility and the role of government in assuring consumer safety.
Let me reveal here that I am a technical writer by profession, and I teach product liability and patent application processes to engineering students at a state university. The students I teach are electrical and mechanical engineers bound for managerial positions at manufacturing companies throughout the country. My goal is to teach these students about the nuts and bolts of product liability laws, and to show them that there is a connection between the morality of the law and the success of products in the marketplace. I never feel better than when I see the light bulb shine in a student who truly seems to THINK about how safety can be melded into their design dreams. Politically, most of my students are decidedly conservative. I never quite figured out why engineering students are more conservative than the rest of the student body, but the point is, with the right instruction, they see that government regulation makes sense, and that government regulation is just the logical extension of the public's desire for corporate responsibility.
Now, as far as manufacturers go, I'm sorry, but American companies have a pitiful record. The fact is, safety regulations on autombobiles, electrical appliances, food products, and a host of other things we use in our everyday lives, were absolutely forced upon corporations. Anyone who thinks that corporations willingly accepted safety requirements is either ignoring the facts for political reasons or is simply unread. I have notes on hundreds (yes hundreds) of court cases, some of them at the Supreme Court level, where companies fought tooth and nail against logical regulations that we now take for granted. The auto industry fought against safeguards for gas tanks, glass producs, tire composition, steering columns, just to name a few. Major manufacturing companies like General Electric and Kodak argued in court that PCB's, mercury, and other contaminents did not poison drinking water.
What made the auto industry face up to its responsibility? What made GE and Kodak and hundreds of other firms finally stop polluting waterways? What made meat-packing plants stop selling contaminated beef? Well, it was a combination of government regulation and public interest groups. The thing is, when the government enforces safety laws on cars, and when the government enforces pollution laws, they usually do so because there is a groundswell of interest from grassroots organizations like consumer safety boards or nonprofits like the Sierra Club. With the meat-packing industry, it was due in large part to a series of exposees written by journalists in the 1920's and 1930's. American corporations would still be selling unsafe automobiles and they would still be polluting our rivers and selling tainted meat if they were not FORCED to change their habits.
Do not buy the argument that American companies adopted safety rules and followed logical pollution standards and stopped making children work in dark and dirty factories because they were enlightened. It is simply not true. Just remember, corporations all across this country, far from becoming enlightened, tried to keep things just as they were.
Anyone who thinks companies willingly change without pressure from government and public-interest groups is fooling himself. I reiterate the fact that American manufacturers are right now taking full advantage of third-world countries that do not have the same safety and child-labor laws in place. If these companies were so enlightened on their own, they would not be running sweatshops in Malaysia. Instead, they would be implementing American-style business practices in thrid-world countries -- something we all know very well is not happening. The way American companies are behaving in third-world countries tells you exactly what they would do were they not FORCED into doing the right thing.
Now, when it comes to which safety rules work and which ones are overkill, we get into murkier territory. We can argue all day and night about which specific safety requirements make sense. Of course there were some attempts at safety that did not succeed. But if American corporations were left on their own, the argument would always fall on the side that benefits corporations' bottom lines. We owe a great debt to government and to public interest groups for at least putting the question of consumer safety and health on an equal level as corporate profits. It's a good balance to have in a society like ours.
Matthew,
I don't think I or anyone has disagreed with what you wrote. The disagreement has been over motivation. The changes have not come from the good graces of the gov't. Other interests have motivated the response from the gov't. Also, I sure wouldn't put PCB's in the same catagory as something like seat belts or airbags. The effects of one is forced upon others, the other should be an economic choice. I don't need anyone deciding for me if and when I should use seatbelts or if my vehicles should have airbags. My wallet should decide that along with the risk of the consequences.
Let's not mix apples and oranges.
Mark, I can go along with that.
Don
Matthew,
I've got an opinion on your remarks as to why engineering students are more politically conservative then the rest of the student body. This is just my theory, but I think it may be true. The engineering process is a perfectly logical sequence of events. The conservative ideology is based entirely on logic. I think the two are equally appealing to the analytical minds found in engineering. I'll also venture a guess that curriculums that don't use logic as a basis, like drama, will attract a more liberal base of students. Conservatives find it awfully hard to make a decision based on emotion, while the hypothetical liberal drama student's future career is based on using emotions to manipulate an audience.
I'm guessing that you and Mark would vote for the same candidate more often then not. When I was in school, there was a strong liberal lean with my professors. I wonder if you have noticed the same thing?
Steve
Mark,
Somebody has been telling you things that can't be proven. If you want you can go back and recearch the patents for safety features in automobiles and you will find exactly zero issued to our government. They have never invented anything. Government moves too slowly to be able to respond to the market. Thats good, because it keeps them from meddling in things they shouldn't.
You bring up food as a safety issue. Well, this is another raw nerve. We American farmers raise the best quality, safest food on this planet. Think about were that steak comes from and decide wether you would prefer it to come from my farm or from someplace else. I can be held accountable if I do something wrong or illegal, while the average South American rancher will never have to answer to anyone. I assume that you would choose the American beef if the price remains the same (if you are not a vegan). Well our various cattle producer organizations have been trying to get a label placed on beef in stores to give the point of origin for as long as I can remember. Your "safety minded" government will not do it. They seem to change the reason that they won't every time it comes up, which makes me think that they are not really safety minded at all. The government, as designed by those exceedinly clever folks, 227 years ago, was invisioned to be a minimalist effort. Not the sometimes socialist endeveor we have today.
Steve
No doubt there are many problems with the sytem, and they're frustrating. But imagine a world in which there were no "committee" to stamp the beef with its seal of approval. You know darn well that as honest as you and your neighbors are, there would be some #### who would cheat the system, just like the #### accountants who might have been one out of a thousand but nevertheless poisoned the system for everyone. That one #### would sell bad meat, consumers would get the impression that they couldn't trust meat coming from your state, and your sales would go right to hell, no matter how honest you were. Apart from hanging the ####, you would want to form your own committee to give a seal of approval that consumers could trust. Your committee would make mistakes; it would go overboard sometimes. But you wouldn't really want to do without it, precisely because of all those #### out there who would otherwise ruin things for you.
Do you really disagree with this?
Mark,
You know what? I think we actually agree on something for a change! Any system that includes humans is subject to there inherent flaws. I think the fundamentals that our nation was built on are very resilient though. We obviously have a difference of opinion on alot of things, and in doing so, new ideas are brought to light and old ones analized. A healthy process to be sure. This discussion, for example, has not changed mine or your core beliefs, but we both get to experience and compare the others opinions. Without this very sort of discussion a nation would stagnate and die (USSR). I am taking something from this all, a better sense of others beliefs, and a new respect for the intellegence of the average woodworker. I also have a new idea about tablesaw safety, thanks Sarge, to consider.
Now, I must get some work done....
Steve
I agree!
Steve,
My comments on North American woodworking equipment were not meant in any way as a general strike against American ingenuity and craftsmanship. I am, however, saying that North American manufacturers have a history of only doing what they are forced to do. Let's face it, if there weren't laws prohibiting pollution, dumping, and child-labor laws, GE and other manufacturers would still be pouring PCB's into our waterways, pumping out toxins by the megaton into the air, and making children work in sub-standard conditions. Why did manufacturers finally stop doing these things? Because they were forced to do it. Just look at how American manufacturers are behaving in third-world countries. They are doing all their polluting and child-labor activities in places where they can get away with it. if they could still get away with it here, believe me, they would.
This is sort of analogous to the situation with woodworking tool manufacturers. However, there are two important differences. The first difference is that we, the consumers, contiunue to support the manufacturers, even knowing that they don't do anything about safety. The second difference is that the average woodworker is more educated about deficiencies in woodworking machinery than the average citizen in the 1950's was about PCB's in the nation's waterways. What does this mean? We, the educated consumers, do in fact have a lot of power to bring more pressure to bear on American manufacturers. Our pressure should be in the form of controlling how and where we spend our money. Manufacturers who cut corners (especially in the area of safety) should be punished by the consumers by facing low sales figures.
Of course, consumer pressure can only go so far. At some point, legal recourse is necessary, because we are getting shafted by the companies that represent our country. My situation is typical. I have a small wood shop, and I need to outfit it. I shop around, and I see a range of table saws, every one of them lacking even rudimentary safety devices that actually work. What it comes down to is this: I will have to buy one of these saws, even though the manufacturer did not take my safety into consideration. So I end up having to support a company that doesn't show support for me. How much of a big deal would it really be for Jet/Powermatic, Delta, or Bridgewood to advance the safety devices in their table saws? I'm not talking about going full-out with Euro-style assemblies. I'm just talking about IMPROVEMENTS TO THE CURRENT DESIGN. Add into the mix the hospital statistics on injuries incurred every year with table saws. I've done the research, and the number of table saw injuries outnumbers the total of all injuries for band saws, routers, and drill presses combined.
But I am, for now, reconciled to the fact that I must, and most likely will, purchase a table saw with the North American safety configurations.
Final note. I am careful to say "North American" and not just "American" when speaking about these manufacturers, because the US and Canada are in the same boat (sometimes literally) on these issues.
Edited 2/6/2003 1:01:18 PM ET by Matthew Schenker
Matt, since you are so concerned about safety why don't you just get a slider? Instead of complaining that American companies don't offer these safety features, send them the message by taking your business elsewhere. They won't learn until they start losing business.
Jet is more than likely having that machine made for them by another company, so all you are buying is a Euro made machine with jet stickers on it. Retooling a manufacturing plant to produce a Euro style machine would cost millions, so they just have machines built for them. But since there are already companies who import European machinery, it probably wouldn't be a good business decision for them. They would start if they thought they were losing enough business to make it worthwhile, but as of right now they aren't. A slider also has to be very precisely made, so a decent one will never be cheap.
If used properly a north American cabinet saw is not dangerous, and in some ways a Euro style saw is more dangerous. I don't feel as safe ripping on a Euro machine as I do with my General. I do however like the sliding table for crosscutting large panels.
I see a lot of woodworkers who are reluctant to spend a few hundred more $'s for a better machine, so how many do you think would be willing to spend a few thousand more (at least)? There's probably not enough of a market for them to be able to make a profit on these machines. The problem is that people are cheap.
Also, at some point you have to accept that woodworking is a dangerous hobby and there is a risk of getting hurt. Provided you use proper techniques and are careful you can minimize the risk of injury, but there will always be a risk. If you aren't willing to risk being injured then woodworking isn't for you. Personally woodworking wouldn't be as fun for me if it were impossible to get hurt.
Edited 2/6/2003 5:42:41 PM ET by Andrew
Matthew,
It appears that we have a different opinion a lot of different issues. I disagree with all of your enviromental concerns and assumptions, your propencity to sue to get your way and your bad view of American companies, as you would, I'm sure, disagree with mine. Neither one of us is likely to convience the other to change our ways so I choose talk about tablesaws instead.
I agree with you that more options in the saw market would not be a bad thing. I would consider buying an affordable slider of good quality if one was avalible, but it is not so why not buy a good fence (Biesmeyer) for an American style saw and a good sliding compound mitre saw? Thats what I did and I can't really see any logical reason to have a sliding tablesaw now.
Buy the way, if you want to read a really interesting story on shop safety, check out the Sep/Oct 1983 issue of FWW #42. It's on page 76 and is called Keeping Ten Fingers. It is old but still amazingly pertinant to todays shops.
Steve
Steve,
I don't know how you could "disagree with all of [my] enviromental concerns and assumptions," when I hardly touched on these topics. You don't know even a fraction of my ideas on the environment, an area about which I am very concerned and do in fact have strong feelings about. I don't see where you find proof in what I wrote that I have a "propencity [sic] to sue to get [my] way." I am, in fact, an advocate for reasonable tort reform, and believe that frivolous lawsuits hurt everyone in the end. I am not advocating suing woodworking manufacturers, I am only talking about putting some muscle and teeth behind the logic of improved safety. We are living in the 21st century, an age of incredible innovation. Why can't we expect North American power tool manufacturers to do a little more catching up?
Also, you are wrong to say that I have a "bad view of American companies." Actually, I expect a lot from American companies. This is because I believe in American innovation. When an American company produces better products, I am very proud of that. But when an American company clearly produces inferior products, I am ashamed, because I expect better. This is perfectly logical. It doesn't do any of us any good to pretend that American companies are always the best. That's not how innovation happens. And it's simply not true. Sorry if this sounds un-patriotic.
Anyway, as far as table saws go, I already said I am reconciled to getting a North American-style machine, probably a Grizzly or a Bridgewood. So, from your point of view, I am supporting a North American company. My gripe is that I don't have an option to get a good saw with at least some truly useful safety devices built in. Again, I'm not expecting a complete overhaul, just an improvement.
If American companies are so great, so innovative, shouldn't they be able to do this for us?
Matthew,
You're right, I couldn't possibly assume that I disagree with all of your environmental concerns without first hearing them. My apologies. I assumed that you were a member of the environmentalist movement that I have come to disdain through repeated exposure. In my profession, we are subjugated to their idiocy with little or no scientific proof daily and I guess that I am a bit short tempered now whenever I sense politically correct environmentalism.
We do agree on the tort reform. To be rid of frivolous lawsuits would probably stimulate the development of fresh ideas like nothing else. As to my remarks about your views of American companies, I'm not insinuating that you are un-patriotic or not a good American of whatever. My point is this, is anyone else really any better? When you criticize American tech in it's entirety, I think you may be overlooking some company out there that sells exactly what you want. What you want does not appear to be the same as what the majority wants, but if you've got dollars to spend, I bet someone will do the job for you. Heck, start a business and fill the niche. Luckily we live in a place were we can do what we please.
Sounds to me like Sarge has an idea you might be interested in.
Steve
Edited 2/6/2003 11:14:12 PM ET by Steve
Having owned a European TS with a slider with a 6' cutting length I hope I am never forced (due to cost) to work on a standard issue NA market TS. But not everyone can afford a $5K TS. I am not sure if the TS with the slider can be made a LOT cheaper due to the tolerances required for it to be effective.
I like to buy US and right now there is nothing out there in TS that works like a European saw. I feel US woodworking tool manufacturers are somewhat like US car manyfacturers (although thanks to chrysler it is changing). They cannot seem to make a profit unless they sell about 300K of a model, whereas, Japanese can easily make profit on models with volumes of even 30K.
My 2 cents worth
http://www.southern-tool.com/store/jet_sliding_table_attachment.html
jet slider for the USA market. You got 10K if you act now it is on sale
Now, perhaps I'm wrong, but I was led to understand once:
That riving knives do not meet consumer safety laws in the US. Where you are required to have a blade cover, splitter, and anti-kickback fingers. Riving knives have no fingers and would have to be redesigned, or they'd have to get the law changed first. And, then they'd have to educate the public as to what a riving knife is. If 10% of American woodworkers have even heard the term and 5% know what one is I'd be surprised.
But, they are required in Europe.
I too would prefer to see more saws w/ sliding tables. In the last few years a very few saws have begun to be offered in the US w/ sliding tables. But, most woodworkers have still never seen much less used one. Some new saws also have better dust collection designed in, but it hasn't proven to be a selling point that most consumers are willing to pay more for. Now, I would pay $4-500 more for a saw w/ a good sliding table and dust collection. But, pay double the price. No way.
Seems to me US woodworkers have a larger selection of quality tools to choose from then ever before. And often cheaper then when I was a kid.
Just looking at a Popular Mechanics from 1988. Delta was introducing a benchtop 4" belt/6" disk sander. Cost in 1988 $170. Cost today? Tool Crib $109.99 w/ free shipping.
Now, if any US manufacturer can get a saw out w/ these features at a decent price, so they can compete, I bet it'll sell.
Still, I'd rather get a saw w/ a saw stop system then all other gaurds combined. No one's making those yet. Anywhere. Ironically, I've read it's because they are afraid of lawsuits if they then sell any saw w/o the sawstop system. Or, if one ever fails to work properly. Seems the legal system in this country discourages innovation more then anything else.
Check that web page again and you'll won't see a spec for arbor length available for a dado set. It's because they are illegal in the UK. Regarding the prices they include Value Added Tax which is a huge percentage. I'm wondering if the US prices in this thread backed out the VAT? Jet's motives I think are fairly obvious. They are trying to penetrate the UK market. Plenty of Euro-style, sliding - scoring saws are available here but they are aimed at the high-volume cabinet shop market. Besides the tolerences required for a good slider do not come cheap. The cabinet shop where I go for widebelt sanding bought a last year's model Altendorf at the AWFS show last time it was in Anaheim at a 'steal' price for $25,000. This saw has a 10' cutting length on the sliding table and I can move it with my pinky.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
There is some confusion in terms and origin of manufacture in your post. All of the companies you list buy their products from other manufacturers (yes even General is "farming out" product). They are all essentially "jobbers" that specify a saw or a lathe or whatever and have it built in a factory in Taiwan or China or another far east country.
Jet and Powermatic have not been American comapnies for a few years - they are owned by the Walter Meier Holding Group out of Switzerland. The Jet name is the holding companies world-wide branding for certain machines, hence European versions of tools.
There are a few American owned companies - Delta, Emerson (which sell products under the Ridgid name) which sell consumer and some industrial machines. There are some industrial woodworking machines made here like Tannewitz but even these companies are having certain products made off shore or have the parts cast/machined off-shore and assembled here.
Like it or not, this is a global economy and there are few machines with everthing manufactured/assembled in the same country (particularly in consumer products).
As a previous post notes, folks don't want to spring for the bucks that a typical European machine commands. Virtually all the brands you mentioned - Bridgewood, Jet, etc. specialize in putting out a machine cheaper than what I will term the "original" (I classify the Delta Unisaw as an "original" that everybody else copied).
It's a tough market out there - you need to do a lot of homework and be prepared to spring for some bucks to get what you really want.
Jet has never been an American company. All they had in the US was a warehouse and some support staff. It has been a Swiss owned company since it was founded. They purchased the American company Powermatic about 3 years ago but that is now no longer "American Made" either.
Not so. Jet was started as a west coast warehouse selling industrial supplies. there is a very detailed history of Jet in the Iturra Design catalogue. Walter Meier just bought them a few years ago - big announcement in the trade journals. I don't have the history in front of me, but as I recall, Jet was started in the state of Washington and was American owned for a number of years. Again, check the full history in Iturra.
Got to be careful on the Jet thing. There is another line of machines sold in Canada with the Jet name that has nothing to do with the Jet we have here. I have no idea of what the history of that anomoly is, but you two may be arguing apples and organes of the name "Jet."
Don
Forgot to mention Powermatic. When Walter Meier purchased Jet, they set up Jet as the "lead" and brand to head up the tool group in the US. While it might appear that Jet purchased Wilton and Powermatic, it was really Walter Meier - they like to work through their established "companies." Powermatic under Houdaille Industries was manufactured in McMinnville, TE - although towards the end, I think they were just assembling parts made off-shore. When Meier/Jet acquired them, them shut down the McMinnville plant and built a new one in TE - can't remember which town - and apparently are "manufacturing" there - assume that means assembly of off-shore parts. Again, get the history from Iturra - they also have the history of Delta.
Apparently you haven't seen the new line of Powermatics out on the floor. They have a much more industrial 'looking'(since I haven't seen one in person)line of Euro style machines including a 10' slider with riving knife.
I'll probably get shot down for saying this here but what ever happened to a safe woodworker? The table saw is only as safe as the person operating it. It seems to me that educating the operator on safe table saw practices is the key to preventing ascendents rather than building an expensive TS that presents a false since of security. A person should keep their mind on what they are doing. That's how I kept out of trouble with the TS for the last 15 years, and had a great instructor in high school wood shop that taught me how to use the TS safely, I have never forgot that. I guess I'm one of those who will not pay for all those extravagant safety devices. Who says those European TS are all that great anyway, I'm so sick of hearing(or reading) this, so There, I've said it, now shoot away!
Paul
Paul
I also, won't pay that much for expensive safety devices. I have them, but I didn't pay fortunately. Please read paragraph 3 or 4 of post 33 this thread. You will see that I agree about the most important safety factor is the operator themselves.
Blast away, why. I am an American an I believe you have the right to what-ever opinion you chose. I fought for that right a long time ago and it would be a double standard to go against everything I stand for.
Could you up the ante by some of these safety devices. My opinion, yes. Will the current manufacturers, probaly not. I am just a WW and don't have time for this debate. When I was made aware of safer devices I could use, I didn't wait for the manufacturer to come out with them. I sat down with a cup of coffee and thought about it. Then I got up off my arse and muttered, "Lets Roll" to msyself. Now I have some safer approaches.... But the operator is still the most important safety feature involved with a piece of machinery and always will be...
High Regards for your opinion, sir...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
I'm not really so opposed to some of the safety devices out there on European TS, nor do I hate any thing European, I do believe American TS are of a higher quality compared to some of the imports out there. European TS, however, are in their own league... really.
As far as American TS industry building Euro style machines, yes I believe one day they will, they be less in price more than likely. So, for now I'll use my American made "North American cabinet style" TS, and practice safe TS procedures, But when that day comes, I'll buy American.
My dad fought in Korea, he was troubled when I bought a VCR made by Mitsubishi, can you blame him?
Have a good one,
Paul
Paul
Thanks for the post and sharing your views. As most of us are in the same predicament with our saws, we either have to sit back and wait till the manufacturers change it or do it ourselves. This would be costly to try to modify the current mechanical set-up unless we are engineers or machinist. About all we can do is put a better splitter, feathers, etc. on. That or nothing at all. This becomes a personal decision.
The safety procedures you endorse would go a long way in keeping accidents down. A large number of accidents are caused by lack of concentration, poorly maintained equipment, improper set-up, improper feed rate and just plain foolish haste. Unfortunately, the only one that can control those responsibilities are the operator themselves. You sound as you are not in this category. Kudo's to you...
I understand your fathers sentiments about buying the foreign merchandise. If I had stole your TS from your shop I would understand you would not care for me. But, would you harbour that same hatred to my children. I don't think you would. The world is changing constantly. We have to keep and open mind to be the seasoned human being that is capable of blending in with all man-woman-kind. Without that seasoning, we are no better off than the savages that roamed earth 1000's of years ago. Just my opinion. Not necessarily right, not necessarily wrong. Just my opinion...
Drop a line any time and feel free to drop by the shop...the Welcome mat is always left out and the porch light will be on.
sarge..jt
Good morning gentlemen
I was a machinist for a number of years, machining much like woodworking is a dangerous occupation. After saying that, proper training and respect for the machine is what is necessary to keep things safe.
In the machine shop industry, according to personal injury logs, and most accidents that happened in the machine shop are caused on one of the simplest machines possible. (The DRILL PRESS)
if you do not respect the machine (a little fear is a good thing) it will hurt you , after all the the machine is made to cut materials that are 10 times harder than human tissue.
This government regulation stuff, is not something I wish to get into.
A question is, can anyone explain( in layman's terms) exactly what are riveting knives? And what is the big deal on sliding tables? We American woodworkers, had been using Jigs like a table sled for years. Don't sleds and sliding tables to the same thing?
Isn't that just a matter of preference. Example the automotive industry. I drive of a Van, my father drives a Cadillac, and my brother drives a sports car. Which ones better? They all serve the same purpose. The question is personal preference.
So can anyone explained to me, why European saws are so great? I'm afraid I just do not see it.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.
Edited 2/9/2003 8:57:22 AM ET by curtis
Curtis,
Check out the pics of a riving knife that Sarge posted on message #38 on this thread. The way he did it is clever indeed. Guess I must confess, I've never used a good sliding table. Don't use sleds much anymore either. I bought a Makita compound sliding mitre saw and love it. It'll cut 12" at 90 so it does most of that work now. Like you said, I think it is a matter of preference.
Steve
curtis
I said I did not want to get to deep in this thread, but looks like I already have. Please go to post #38 of this thread and click on the pics I posted. A picture is worth a thousand words sometimes.
A riving knife is the same as a splitter except it is attached to the same mechanism that moves the blade up and down and from side to side on angles. It comes up out of the table and slightly curves over the rear 4 or 5 rising teeth. Those rear rising teeth are the most critical cause of kick-back. A crown gaurd is attached on top of the knife to check the up-lift of a piece of stock that those rear rising teeth can cause if you have made a mistake in fence alignment or keeping the correct pressure to the fence. Go to your saw if you still have the gaurd attached. You will notice that the gaurd is attached to the arse end. It stays the same height when you raise or lower the blade giving a big gap that you can get your hand in when the blade is raised high. Also the stock spitter has a tendency to get out of line with the blade and you got a bind situation ready to happen.
The riving knife is simple and effective. It gives you maximum protection from getting your fingers or hand on that spinning blade if the stock is kicked or you're distracted and make a mistake. In combo with the crown gaurd on top you have added a positive safety aid to the saw.
I do not have an expensive Euro saw. They are pretty much custom built and as a machinist you should appreciate close tolerances and the fact you will pay for detail work. I find absolutely nothing wrong with American saws (especially the price) except I want a riving knife and crown gaurd. I would not hesitate to buy PM 66, Unisaw, Grizzly 1023 or the General from Canada. I would just like to have the knife and crown gaurd instead of that piece of crap that comes with them. A simple request.
With that American cabinet saw I would like a slider. Some of the Euro sliders allow you to crosscut up to 48"width stock accurately. A sled is fine, but you can't get that capacity. After using a slider with big panels, I love it as I work alone. Good news, sliders are available for the American cabinets at a somewhat reasonable price. My first slider I made from two steel pipes and the bearings off old roller skates. Worked great. A slider is mighty nice if you deal with big panels. If not, the sled is a major improvement and gets the job done.
I am not here to say mine is better than yours, or this brand is better than that brand. I am here to point out that the Euro saws have some innovations I think are simple and effective and would be an asset to whatever saw I have. I don't care if they were designed in Europe, Taiwan, a cave inToro-Boro Afganistan or Baton-Rouge La. If it is a safer way and makes common sense, I want one if it is within my budget or if I can't make it myself (my first option). A good idea is a good idea no matter what the origin or who the originator was.
I hope this my be of help to you. I speak about as layman as they come as I am just a dumb country boy with no formal education or degrees. If you have questions or comments after you view the pics, fire away. If I don't know the answer, I'll get it for you. There is a wealth of info on the subject. You just have to seek it..
And Yes, the operator is the most improtant element of safety that is associated with the saw. I have already stated this emphatically in post above. But, a little help of some clever safety devices can take some of the stress off the operator. IMO...
Have a good day...
sarge..jt
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