Replies

1. 
   HouseOfY | Aug 05, 2005 02:09am | #1

   Hello,

    

   I always pre finish my pieces.. Wrap the tenons in tape (as you had said) .. if you just put a dab of stain on a cloth.. and go around the outside of the mortise joint you should not get any into the mortise pocket.. Assemble once everything has been stained, after the glue is dry, it will peel right off of the areas with finish.. I generally go over the piece again with stain, and then shellac (or whatever finish you use)

    

   ~Rob

2. 
   WillGeorge | Aug 05, 2005 05:34pm | #2

   I'll probably get some flack on this one..

   I cut my sticks.. I wipe on some de-waked shellac as a wash coat. Let it dry then cut away...

   Yes,,, SOMETIMES,, I have a broblem with the glue but hardly ever...

   EDIT:: Sorry.. de-waked is only if ya live in NYC or Chicago...

   Otherwise De-Waxed!

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/5/2005 10:36 am ET by Will George

1. 
   Cinescout | Aug 05, 2005 07:15pm | #3

   I'm new at this, so a couple of questions:

   What is a wash coat.  Does it prevent the absorbtion of stain?  You put on a wash coat and then cut away?  I've done all my cutting and am ready to apply the stain (General Wipe On Urethane Gel.)  I will follow with Tung Oil.

   Thanks,

   David

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 05, 2005 10:27pm | #4

   If I may jump in here...

   A wash coat is typically a thinned down finish. Lacquer and Shellac are the most widely used. Thinned down wood glue is sometimes used too. Although then it is usually called "sizing" or "glue sizing." Same basic idea as wash coating, though.

   The purpose of wash coating isn't to prevent the absorbtion of any stain. Rather it is to prevent the absorbtion of some of the stain. Being a thinned down finish/glue, it only partially fills the wood pores and thus only prevents the absorbtion of some of the stain.

   Typically how it works is that the thinned finish/glue soaks in so that when you get to the staining step, the stain can't penetrate very far into the wood... it is forced to stay on the surface.

   Of course you can use the same basic principles to prevent the absorbtion of nearly all stain by not thinning down the wash coat material. But, that's the proverbial two-edged sword which cuts both ways because then you won't be able to stain it once you've got the thing assembled. A wash coat is a good happy medium which still preserves the stainability option.

   Preemptive Karma  

   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

1. 
   Cinescout | Aug 06, 2005 06:58am | #9

   Thanks for the very clear explanation of the wash coat.  However, I still don't understand how that will make the mortise/tenons glue efficient if the wipe on gel urethane I was planning on using gets into the mortises.

   HOWEVER, rather than staining the wood, I've decided to fume it.  It's quarter sawn white oak.  So, for this project, the question is no longer an issue (I think.)  However, I'd still like to learn about protecting mortises.  The simplest solution so far seems to be the extra long tenons.  Though, I'm still struggling with getting mortises and tenons to fit well.

   I did some fuming tests today and am happy with the results.  Following instructions read in FWW, I was mildly disappointed with the results.  The wood was somewhat muddy with a green tinge.  Thinking back to other articles on staining, I remembered one that suggested scuff sanding the wood after staining.  I tried that and the result was spectacular.  After lightly sanding with 320, I wiped the test piece down with tung oil and the flecks popped out in a three dimensional manner.  It was subtly dramatic, an oxymoron, I know.

   So, moving on with the project.  :)

   David Israel

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 06, 2005 07:47am | #10

   I wasn't really venturing an opinion on how to keep stain out of mortises. I'm a finisher/painter by trade and decided to jump in and explain wash coating in a bit more detail.

   It sounds like fuming was an ideal solution to your dilema. As they say, all's well that ends well.

   Preemptive Karma  

   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Aug 06, 2005 02:06pm | #11

   If I may jump in here...NO! ... LOL..I typed 'Wash coat'..
   My fingers and brain do not work together many times...
   What I ment to say is I just put on a thin coat of de-waxed Shellac and stain before I make my cuts. Not on everything I do but to those parts I think may give me a problem with glue squeeze out.If I miss something.. a card scraper will usually clean off the glue without leaving a mess that is impossible to correct..Just what seems to work for me..

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 06, 2005 05:52pm | #12

   You do a wash coat and then stain? Or stain and then put a wash coat over it to protect it? I know you typed the former. But... I was just sitting here pondering whether the latter might work better in terms of protecting the stain during the remainder of your cutting processes.

   Now you've got my curiosity up. LOL

    

   Preemptive Karma  

   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Aug 06, 2005 09:45pm | #13

   Geee.. What I get myself into??? LOL...Yes.. wash coat and then the stain... I DO try not to get THAT much glue all over....It seems that a little glue does not 'sink' in that far if it gets on the wood where you can not get all of it off due to a clamp or something..... A card scraper seems to do the trick.. And at least I think it works OK...All I can say is try it on some scrap...

3. 
   exhibitor | Aug 07, 2005 03:54am | #14

   Kevin and Larry, I agree with your points.  Regardless, if hes careful not to slop the stain into the mortise, he'll be OK>>>Jimmy.

3. 
   exhibitor | Aug 05, 2005 10:48pm | #5

   Stain won't cause a glue failure, but a finish...shellac, poly, blo etc will.  I'm assuming that you will stain before assembly, but shellac, oil, etc. after....Jimmy.

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 06, 2005 12:58am | #6

   Stain won't cause a glue failure, but a finish...shellac, poly, blo etc will.

   As a general rule I agree. But, some of the self-sealing oil stains can cause a glue failure for the same reason that BLO can. Water and solvent stains would be safe. I'd be careful with an oil stain, though.

   Preemptive Karma  

   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

2. 
   KesslerCraftsman | Aug 06, 2005 02:14am | #8

   It will cause glue failure if there is a binder in the stain.  Most big-box store stains (Behlens, minwax, etc) do use binders.

   Transtint and many of the higher quality wood dyes do not have binders.

   I use transtint to get my base coats, glue things up, and then clear finish.

   Another option to keep the stain out of a mortise is to make a longer tight-fitting tenon and jam it in the mortise while finishing..then remove when you're ready to glue up.

   Good luck.

   lp

4. 
   HouseOfY | Aug 06, 2005 01:13am | #7

   That is a good idea, cut some scrap stock (the thickness of your mortise, and apply a finish to the plug.. (so the glue will not stick to it) and use it to plug up the mortise pocket while you are staining it...