To all the veterans out there….What are the main steps you take to avoid kick back on the TS? I understand that staying out of the line of the lumber is one step but that brings up another question. I am right handed as I am sure many of you are, so as I push stock through with the push stick, does that mean I should stand to the left of the stock? If so, then my arm will still be in the line of fire. Any advice is greatly apprciated.
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Replies
I would imagine a power feeder would be best, but not having that kind of money, I make sure to use the blade guard or at the least a splitter. I also use featherboards to hold the wood down against the table and if possible, to hold it against the fence on the infeed side of the blade (never use one where it will put pressure agaist the blade, or after the cut where it will pinch the kerf closed - both would cause kickback).
For general safety sake, I set the blade so that a full tooth will barely be above the wood. I use a push stick and stand off to the side when ripping. When crosscutting I do not have the wood against the fence when it is in contact with the blade.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
A question to those who have had some kickback problems. Is your blade all the way up or only high enough to cut through the thickness of the board? Reason I ask is quite a few years ago I bought a Forrest blade and was having problems with burning on cherry and maple so I contacted Forrest and the guy suggested I raise the bldae all of the way up to reduce the surface contact of the blade. He also said that having the blade all of the way up will help eliminate kickback since the (top) radius of the blade is further away from the board. A couple of weeks ago I was cutting a small peice of 1/2" plywood and was lazy and only raised the blade high enough to through the thickness and sure enough it started to ride up on the back side of the blade but did not kickback. Next cut I raised it all of the way up and no problem.
If you want to eat a plywood panel then have the blade height set so it just peeks out of the cut...any accidental sideways movement with your hand, a tooth catches just right, and wham...
The advice you were given is correct.
Edited 9/27/2006 3:47 pm ET by CStanford
I have had some nasty kickbacks in my early woodworking days thinking that I was safer with the blade teeth just slightly above the thickness of the workpiece. With this configuration, only a slight rising up of the piece on the blade can result in immediate disaster! I am much more comfortable with the blade teeth well above the thickness of the workpiece. If the workpiece begins to ride up on the blade, you have more than an nano-second to react. This is especially important if you are repetitive sawing a number of boards. They are all slightly different, and you can be lulled by repetition. Then a slightly weird workpiece shows up in the stack, and pow! Clearly, maintaining good splitter management is key. It is easy to take it off and leave it off for convienence of other type cuts.
"...the guy suggested I raise the bldae all of the way up to reduce the surface contact of the blade"Good point. I understand and completely agree with the concept (easier on the blade/motor as well). I've worked with the blade just high enough to clear the chips for years, thinking that if the worst happened, the damage would be less than if the blade were set all the way up -- not a blade guard man -- even though I know less teeth in the cut is better. I've had formal training in table saw technique and learned a lot on my own -- I work safely and have not had a kickback in many years (though I realize it can happen for any number of reasons), even with the blade set low. I'm going to raise my blade to the max and leave it there. Thanks for reminding why this makes sense.
Lots of good advice above. Consider also that the smaller thepiece you handle the greater the chance of a problem. Beware the small pieces.
This discussion is so valuable. I have not used a tablesaw for years, and am trying to jump-start a woodworking hobby as I approach retirement. My son has started woodworking, too, at a high school that has a superb shop. Now I'm eager to see if his teacher talks to the kids about the mechanics of KB so they really understand it, as I certainly never did before visiting this forum.
A couple of other things that can cause KB that may not have been covered. I have two friends who lost fingers while using a dado blade cutting a rabbet. Both were feeding by holding down and pushing with their hands passing over the blade. Neither could tell me why but the board just disappeared and their hands went down into the blades. Lesson: Never feed with the pressure from your hands directed right into the blade.When doing plunge cuts," Very dangerous" anchor the wood hard to the table in front of the blade, and let the back down slowly, and only feed forward. Backing up onto the back of the blade will just kill a new woodworker almost every time. Someone earlier mentioned using a 3 hp motor, and maybe it would be worse with a more powerful motor. I think this is wrong thinking. Many KBs are caused by under-powered saws that start to bog down, from pinching, or really bad blades, and when they try to back up onto a pinching board, it will just get more traction as you back up, because the kerf narrows, and now you are already going the way that it is trying to go. Even though it is less power, there is still enough to kick your xxx.All fences are not equal. some of the fences that only attach to a rail in front can flex to the side if the user is pushing the work hard against the fence. Then when the front of the blade is through the work, and that pressure is eased off, the fence acts like a spring, which pushes the wood over onto the back of the blade where it can get traction.
Never stop feeding until the wood is well clear of the back of the blade.The last KB that caught me off-guard, was a small diagonal split, or shake in the last 12 inches of a narrow ripping. As I was finishing the cut, this split wedged in under and away from the fence causing the 1 x 1 x 10' oak strip to climb onto the back of the blade, sending it over and into the end of my left forefinger. I think I was looking at the end of the bone before the blood filled in.
Yep.That does it. Until I get my sliding table saw, I'll never use anything BUT the bandsaw for ripping.Rich
Rich14
Not sure I understand how you will use sliding table to make rip cuts.
Ive been at this less than a year and got hit just above belt by 2x2 1/4 ply about 6mos ago . No real damage but sore for two wks. May have been for best since it made me aware of force with which the piece is thrown at you. I have been considering Saw Stop since that time but have to come up with the $'s first.
Thanks for any info you may offer.
Newguy 2006
Edited 9/28/2006 2:01 am ET by Newguy2006
Newguy,Go to the Felder site, request videos/DVD of their Felder and Hammer line to see how the equipment is used.Because the Sawstop has a riving knife, which never needs to be removed for any operation, kickback may be less likely on that machine. But, as has been explained extensively in this thread, kickback is essentially operator error, especially under less than optimal conditions, kerf closing with problem wood, work pinching or rotating into the rear of the blade.Rich
Your 2'x2', 1/4" thick plywood had two things going for it that made it especially tricky, IMHO. First, it's thin (therefore light). Second, it's not significantly longer than it is wide. That is very close to the same size and thickness of the piece that gave me a fright.
Now, when I have a piece like that to cut, I clamp a board to my fence that is just 1/4" above the table, providing a channel for the ply to ride in, but making it impossible for it to raise up. That and firm pressure keeps things under control. A featherboard attached to the fence could replace the board.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/28/2006 11:49 pm by forestgirl
An even better idea for plunge cuts is to never do them on the tablesaw. In my opinion, there is no safe way on the t.s. Find another way.
I agree (for myself) on plunge cuts. I've had a few I could have done that way, and simply found other ways to do it. Nothing against others who do 'em that way, probably they're safe because they know how to do it right. It's just not for me.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Yeah, the problem is if anything goes wrong, things get out of hand (literally) very fast. There is simply no correcting. It's not worth the risk to me.
Yeah, the problem is if anything goes wrong, things get out of hand (literally) very fast. There is simply no correcting. It's not worth the risk to me.
Yup. The only way I've willing to do a plunge cut on a TS is by clamping the workpiece firmly to the table, and raise the blade into the piece. If that won't work, I'll do something else; e.g., I can do it safely with a circular saw.
Hi BarryO ,
I'm not advocating anybody does any procedure they feel uncomfortable with , but , as I posted in #39 , plunge cuts can and are made in a more safe way than some may know .
You can clamp the workpiece like you said , make the cut turn off the saw then remove the piece , but chances of burning the stock will increase with this method and the quality of the cut won't be great .Besides when you turn the saw back on there is a chance of kick back if the piece has shifted or otherwise has become crooked , whamo .
Sure there is risk in many operations involving the TS but statistically speaking the chance of getting into an auto accident when you drive everyday are much more likely in most cases .I can only speak for myself but in the last 30 years I have had more close calls in vehicles than in the shop , regardless of who was at fault .Maybe these comparisons are poor but if it feels scary don't do it .
dusty
sapwood ,
As far as plunge cuts go , sometimes I need to do them in a strip of plywood , but most often I need to make bread board cutouts in kitchen base cabinets , A friend of mine nipped his thumb doing one and I have scared the heck out of myself a few times .
Now what I do is leave the face frame member or piece of wood much longer than it will be to put some distance between me and the blade . I layout the where I will need the slot and where the finished piece will be cut . For these cuts I raise the blade up but not quite all the way . Usually I make the first cut then move the fence over and make the next . I use a sabre saw to cut the ends out and finish the long cuts .
dusty
Take a look at these. They should help.
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Those movies won't open on my machine...... maybe it's a Mac thing.
They're fine on my Mac G5, OS X 10.4.7, all current updates to quicktime, etc.
Rich
You can download the files to your mac by option clicking. Then just open in quicktime.
I use a Delta 5 HP TS at work, we are required to use an over head guard and a splitter with anti kickback paws must be used on all cuts unless using the dado blade. There is even a safety trip switch which shuts down the saw if the overhead guard lifts over two inches above the table. At first I didn't care for all the safety precautions but now I consider them my ally. We mainly cut 2x material, various thicknesses of plywood, Plyron, tempered Masonite, UHMW and Makrolon (Lexan) a polycarbonate. The last being the biggest challenge, I've seen it break teeth (not just the carbide, the complete tooth) off blades when it kicked back.
I also concur on the blade being raised to full height and sharp.
Saw
Christheo,
Try "command - shift - 4" and drag a frame across your subject. This will give you a screen shot "pdf" that you can use with your printer.
P.S. attached is a picture of my latest and it was designed on a Mac.
So raising the blade to its highest point or close to is safer/more beneficial than having it just peek out above the cut line? I have always been told to just raise the blade high enough to clear the top of the wood being cut. Enlighten me please!!
The developer of the EZ Smart guide system http://www.eurekazone.com/gallery.htmlhas pointed out, quite correctly, that a guide system and circular saw is a MUCH safer way to cut panels or rip lumber. That method is an entirely different mindset than using a table saw. The operator's hands are never anywhere near the spinning blade, setup is quick, kickback is an impossibility and the accuracy and quality of the cut is every bit as good as using a table saw. From an ergonomics viewpoint, using the table saw as we have for so long is a terrible way to do the job.Rich
Hi csviking ,
The amount you raise the blade above the work should be determined by the application , there is not only one correct way or height .
Many comments in this thread are saying the TS is not the right or a safe tool to rip lumber or cut sheet goods with , and that many accidents can be avoided by using other ways . That is like saying you can avoid car accidents if you ride a bike or walk instead , it may take longer to get there but you could.
I would venture to guess (not a fact ) as many or more injuries occur with a skill saw as a TS . As far as using the BS to rip , sure for some stuff it may be the best way to go , as long as you have the ability to clean and prepare the edge for joinery and such .
For a hobby shop you could use any of these methods but on a professional basis from my experience very few shops do not use the TS for these types of cuts .
I guess I am thinking of the sheer volume a professional shop does , say for instance on a good sized job involving face frames and frame and panel doors many hundreds if not thousands of feet of stock needs to be ripped . I'm not saying it can't be done with a BS but what I am suggesting is that it is not a practical method for a production shop .
Not all the advice in this thread including mine is always going to be the best way to go .
dusty
Dusty,
I agree that in a production shop, trying to convince anyone to get their work done without a TS would be a futile effort.
Having said that, ripping on the band saw is a bit slower, but not by much. Once you adopt it as your method of work, it's very efficient. But I would never expect a production shop to agree.
On the other hand, objection to a circular saw/guide system is, in my opinion, mostly a matter of mind set and inertia. Old ways die hard. Take a look at the videos on the site I linked to. The method is much safer. The operator is never in the proximity to harm that a TS presents.
Now, if workers are going to walk around with circular saws on which the blade guards have been removed, or tied open, like I have seen as SOP on construction sites (and the thought just gives me hives), all bets are off. Those situations are accidents waiting to happen. And there are other unsafe practices that make circular saws dangerous, but they are not the fault of the design, just bad use.
But the guide system, with the operator's hands, both on top of that saw, which is the only place they can be is, I think, a very viable alternative to the TS, in the busiest commercial shop.
I have absolutely no connection to the EZ Smart product, but if the developer, Dino, who spends a lot of time over on the Fine Homebuilding site gets wind of this thread, there will be a blizzard of opinion here about the superior safety of his product.
Rich
Hi Rich ,
I don't have any issues with the guide system or jigs that go along with a skill saw, for an on the job site cut or other wise for that matter .But to say it is better than a TS or that a BS is better really depends on many things .
The first thought that comes to my mind on ripping lumber , most that we use is 10' lengths some longer , with a large BS and adequate support along with a power feeder good ripping certainly can be accomplished , I suppose you could even straight edge your stock on the BS . But for the average shop , hobby or custom production this may be pushing what's at hand beyond it's limits to an extent . That's all I mean . I have never used the guide system you speak of so I really can have no opinion on it , only the method .
We can use a molding plane , or a router or a shaper to create profiled moldings , which is best ? Imo what works best for each application for each one of us is the answer . More power to you if you use a skill saw and a BS instead of a TS . You are so correct about old habits die hard . I think what ever we get used to and are comfortable with while producing quality results is fine with me . The end product is ultimately why we are here so to speak.
I guess I wonder what happens when using the guide system and the material binds or pinches or otherwise goes south , on the TS you have a few options , are they the same ? When you do rip on the TS and the stock curves a bit after each cut depending on how wide the pieces are you can press the pieces flat against the fence and make your next cuts , how does that work with the skill saw system , do you have to straight edge it again ?
regards dusty
dusty,
Take a look at the videos on the site. And the recent FWW that reviewed 4 such systems.
Rich
Rich ,
The system looks well designed and as though it will stand up to everyday usage . I do agree with your statement it is a viable alternative to the TS , but in no way a replacement unless you did not have one with some exceptions .
Many people think those of us who use collar knives on our shapers are an accident waiting to happen and would never ever consider using them , well I use them as well as 2 and 3 wing one piece carbide cutters . As the Llama people say " spit happens " . Common sense should be the theme in which we proceed with the use of any and all tooling .
Have you ever seen carbide chip crack or break , I have , whether it is a tooth on a blade or a cutter or router tip .HS tool steel can break as well , in the real world things happen , regardless of the users skill level or safety precautions .
I looked at the site and saw the straight edging and jointing setup but did not see the things I asked you addressed .For production work even high end it certainly could be used but as you said as an alternative .
lunch is over got to make more dust
dusty
I read the review of the edge guides.
The same time Woodsmith magazine reviewed a different tool system.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43043
...it's also a great tool for the small shop because it enables you to make perfect cuts using an ordinary circular saw....At first glance, the ez smart looks like a lot of other straightedge saw guides on the market. But there are some key differences in how the Ez Smart works....All this features are great,but what makes the EZ Smart really stand out are the accessories available for it....After taking a look at these, you quickly realise that this isn't just a saw guide---it's a precision cutting system for the circular saw.
"So raising the blade to its highest point or close to is safer/more beneficial..."csviking,Here is the concept as I understand it (I'm attaching a couple of illustrations). With the blade set just high enough to make the cut and clear the chips, there are more teeth in the cut (Blade Low.jpg). This causes the blade and motor to work harder (I guess not a safety/kick back issue), and because there are more teeth lifting the board at the back of the cut, it may be more likely to come off the table if not held firmly in place. And, because the top of the blade is closer to the table, the board has less distance to travel to the top teeth if it lifts, and once there, a kick back can occur. As the Blade Low.jpg shows, there may be 3 or 4 teeth in the back end of the cut at once. With the blade set higher, as in Blade High.jpg, there are only 2 - 2.5 teeth in the board at the back of the cut, which in theory, reduces the lifting force. And now, the board has much farther to travel before it can get on top of the blade. I've never had a kickback happen in this fashion, and because I always use a splitter, I doubt I ever will (famous last words).As I mentioned in my reply to charliez, I've worked with the blade set just high enough to make the cut for years because I don't use a blade guard, and felt that if the worst happened, the blade being lower would reduce the extent of an injury. But after reading charliez' post, and having bought in to the concept outlined above, I think I'll work with the blade at full height from now on. I don't recommend that anyone work without a blade guard if they're not comfortable and confident in doing so, but for me, it's less cumbersome and so safer. I'm not reckless -- push sticks/feather boards when appropriate, no loose sleeves, stand out of the line of fire, feed correctly, focus -- all that stuff. In my mind, proper technique and focus are the two things that will keep you safe.
This is correct as I understand and tried to explain. The only time I don't keep my blade all the way up is when I don't want to go all the way through the wood.
In raising the blade to full height you are trading one risk (exposed blade contact) for another (kickback). While neither would be fun, I would risk a kickback (blunt contact - and avoidable, use of splitters, featherboard, sharp blade, etc) over contact with the blade (cut, amputation, etc, again avoidable, but damage is more significant).
I understand the idea of having less blade/tooth contact and what is exposed at the point of the stock pinching, but I never and would never teach someone that it is safer to have all that blade (teeth) exposed. The rule as I was taught (and as I teach it) is 1/8" above the stock on through cuts. If you do a search is seems (unscientifically of course) that the 1/8" rule (or the height of the tooth) seems to be the most common suggestion. Yes, suggestion, all circumstances are different and no one really wants to go on record as stating that ...such and such is the right way. Doing such, and then someone getting hurt on what you state "is the safe way" opens one up to liability. This is the reason for the disclaimers on Norm and David Marks shows, they show the way they perform an operation (safe, unsafe or questionably safe) and tell you do "read, understand and follow the safety instructions that come with your woodworking machine" (or something to that effect).
Even the government (OSHA)does not give a "proper height" ...
Kickbacks occur when the blade catches the stock and throws it back toward theoperator. Kickbacks can result if the blade height is not correct or if the blade is not maintained properly. Kickbacks are more likely to occur when ripping, rather than crosscutting. Kickbacks also can occur if safeguards are not used or if poor-quality lumber is cut. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/machineguarding/saws/tablesaws.html
In the short of it, I suggest you learn from someone who had experience, in a formal setting (school, workshop, apprenticeship, etc).
Accidents do happen, usually from human error, know what can happen, try to minimize the negatives.
Donkey
<"In raising the blade to full height you are trading one risk (exposed blade contact) for another (kickback).">That's a good point, and as I mentioned in my first post/reply, I have worked for years with the blade just high enough to clear the chips. After revisiting the concept of fewer teeth in the cut, I'm going to give the "high blade" method a go for a while. I think that if you use a blade guard, the height of the blade is irrelevant. I don't use one, so I may well decide to revert to my previous way of working (low blade) if I'm not satisfied that the advantages outweigh the added risk. As I've said before, I find the guard an extreme hindrance and so think its use increases the potential for an accident -- but that's my preference and choice. I would NEVER recommend not using a guard to anyone, let alone a beginner. <"In the short of it, I suggest you learn from someone who had experience, in a formal setting (school, workshop, apprenticeship, etc).">I have had training from qualified instructors in a formal school setting, and worked with some very experienced and skilled woodworkers in a shop environment. There is no clear consensus among them on the use of a guard -- some do, some don't. What I have learned from these people is proper technique and procedure for working safely on the table saw, some of it contrary to my self-taught methods -- took a while to adapt, but well worth the effort and second nature now.<"Accidents do happen, usually from human error, know what can happen, try to minimize the negatives.">Couldn't agree more. It's the responsibility of anyone working with power equipment to understand how their tools work, know the proper procedure for every operation, potential for risk and what can cause things to go wrong. If you remain focused and know what to expect during any given operation, I think you have a reasonable expectation of working safely.
Mike there is another page in the chapter of the physics of the saw tooth cutting wood that you need to consider with the blade all of the way up. While you may have fewer teeth in the cut, that is better achieved by changing to a blade with fewer teeth. But the main reason, is that the tooth is cutting across the grain at 90º + 90º, meaning that the edge of the blade is at 90º across the grain on the face, and it is going down through the thickness at nearly 90º. It just doesn't get any harder to cut than that.Raising the blade is not the right way to get too many teeth out of the cut. Changing the blade is. If you have a copy of Bruce Hoadly's "Understanding Wood" has a good description of the importance of this.
<But the main reason, is that the tooth is cutting across the grain at 90º + 90º,...>All good points. I was thinking more about rip cuts with the grain where I believe the angle of attack is less significant than a crosscut and should have been clearer in my previous post. I liken it to hacksawing through a piece of round pipe. Tougher in the beginning of the cut when the blade is removing the most material at a shallow attack angle -- easier once you get to the center of the pipe with less teeth in the cut, less material being removed and a higher angle of attack. But then there are no chapters of physics written in either side of my brain, so what do I know. On changing blades to achieve the effect of fewer teeth in the cut -- I keep a 40 tooth high quality, general purpose blade on my saw most of the time, and it works well, and only switch to a 30 tooth blade when ripping thicker stock.As I mentioned before, I'm going to try it this way for a while and see how it works. If it doesn't, then I'm wrong for buying into the "less teeth, higher angle" concept, and I'll go back to the lower blade setting. And in the end, who really cares how high or low I run my blade. Everyone works the way it's best for them.I do have Bruce Hoadly's book and think it's quite good.
Mike, If you choose to keep ripping with your blade all of the way up, that is fine with me, but I don't think you were quite following the logic. I was talking about the saw cutting in the rip direction.Lets try this from another angle, and if you will do a little experiment, maybe you will understand what I am describing. When you are ripping, the front of the tooth is more or less running across the grain, and the higher the blade is raised, then the more directly down through the end-grain it has to cut.If you will take a piece of wood and put it on top of your bench. If you then take a chisel, then try to cut straight down with the blade across the grain at 90º and at 90º to the face, you will find that it is very hard to push or drive your chisel very far into the wood, when you compare it to tilting the chisel over to about 30º to the face.
That's a good analogy. I see what you mean.
> "What are the main steps you take to avoid kick back on the TS?"
Rule 1) Understand the mechanics of how kickback starts, and plan your cuts to avoid it.
Rule 2) Control the stock. Not all pushsticks are created equal and, in fact, used correctly, "pushstick" is a misnomer. Use one that will not only push the stock forward, but will hold the stock DOWN as it EXITS the blade. I use a piece of 1/4" or 1/2" ply that is about 14" long, 10" high and has a "hook" on one end to grab the board. The front end holds the stock down against the table as the cut is finished. Kickback is started when the rear teeth start to push the stock up away from the table. If the teeth catch the stock at this point, they will act as a sling, instantaneously raising the workpiece up and towards the operator.
Rule 3) Avoid having the cutoff between the blade and the fence when possible. It can get pinched and the kickback sequence starts. Not always possible/practical, but if not, make other provisions to control the stock. Also, you can get a nasty KB even if the cutoff is not between the blade and fence, so don't be lulled into a false sense of security just because your cutoff is on the offside. You will still need to control the cuttoff until it's clear of the blade.
Rule 4) Use outfeed support and "helpers" as needed. For example, when cutting a dado with a regular blade (which leaves a "spear" like the one in the OP's example as opposed to cutting a dado with a dado blade which only leaves sawdust), I will either employ a helper to control the cutoff as it comes out of the saw or use a "pushstick" made of stock wide and deep enough to engage the cutoff, and push it all the way through the blade. Improperly supported outfeed can add to the forces trying to lift the board off the table and into the spinning blade.
Rule 5) Never use the fence to crosscut narrow stock. (Used here, "crosscut" does not refer to grain direction, but the shape of the workpiece. I treat anything shorter in the dimension parallel to the blade than it is in the perpendicular direction, as a "crosscut". Hard to explain, but it's generally a comparison of forces applied to the piece by you vs. the saw. Make sure you have more force than the saw.) Use the miter guage and, if you want to use the fence to set the length, use an auxiliary fence clamped to the regular fence so the workpiece clears it prior to entering the blade.
Rule 6) Respect the TS, but don't fear it. This means plan your cut and FIRMLY control your workpiece as it is sawn until it fully clears the blade. I have read posts where folks experienced kickbacks when the kerf closed up and pinched the blade. To me, this is a sign that they did not have the stock under full control. When this happens to me, my saw will stall before the wood kicks, because the workpiece is held down and pushed forward at all times. (Granted, it's only a 3-hp and it might be a *bit* harder to stop a more powerful saw, but the principle holds.)
Rule 7) Use featherboards or equivilent when appropriate. They set up quickly and help a lot, both in preventing KB and in guiding the stock.
I'm sure there are more, but this is a start. The forces that start kickback are relatively small and easily controlled. Once the process is started though, get out of Dodge! The goal is to stop the process before it ever begins.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
There is a nice video on this site titled "Mastering Tablesaw Basics" by Kelly Mehler that demonstrates good positioning on the tablesaw. There are some other articles as well on the the subject. Generally when ripping, if the fence is to the right of the blade you want to be to the left of the blade so you can keep the stock against the fence. If you stand to the right you would have a tendency to push the stock away from the fence and into the blade which would promote kickback.
-Chuck
csviking ,
As you said as a right hander it's tough to be completely out of the line of fire . IMO you should not have your head in direct line of the blade , it really all depends on how risky or dangerous the cut you are making is . Use feather boards or hold downs along with any other safety features you may have as the task dictates .
Usually short pieces are the ones prone to kickback , they get a little cocked and whamo . I routinely rip and crosscut sheet goods and I do use my fence . For me larger pieces of sheet goods has never been what kicks back .
dusty
Don't know if you have joined the "paid section" of FWW, but if you have, you can do a search in the Skills & Techniques section and find some excellent articles on kickback, with illustrations and guidelines. One that used to be a video clip is from Lon Schleining here:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011139070.pdf
showing that "kickback" is not only a spear being shot out the front of the blade guard (if it's there, LOL) but also a spinning piece of sheet goods that pulls your hand into the blade. Having accidentally reproduced this physics phenomenon at my own saw (sans hand-into-blade), I can testify as to the fright factor.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/26/2006 11:53 am by forestgirl
"a spinning piece of sheet goods that pulls your hand into the blade. Having accidentally reproduced this physics phenomenon at my own saw (sans hand-into-blade), I can testify as to the fright factor."
FG,
Can you please describe that situation?
Rich
If you are cutting a piece of plywood and it's not kept pressed to the table of the saw, it can ride up and when it contacts the rising teeth of the sawblade, it actually starts to rotate. It can happen with a large or small sheet -- I talked to a cabinetmaker who had it happen -- but it's easier to imagine with a small piece. The damaged piece will have an arc of teethmarks across the bottom of it, ugly, truly ugly. The danger is if your hand follows the plywood.
Wish that video clip was still accessible as a freebie.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi All, I had a 20X18x3/4 piece of ply catch an spin across my gut last week. Got a big scratch, but otherwise OK. And I use a guard, splitter, and push stick. My fence, I found was adjusted just slightly in toward the blade at the rear. So, your saw setup is important, too.Bob
The 'frisbee' kickback happens (as Jamie said) when a sheet rides the blade and pivots counterclockwise around the rear right corner of the sheet. It leaves an arc track on the underside of the piece and heaves it towards your head, while attempting to drag your hand into the blade.
I suppose this can almost totaly be prevented by using a splitter, since the piece must get on top of the blade for this to happen. I have seen a pic/video (Kelly M?) where this was induced for demo purposes using a sheet of rigid foam insulation that was around 24"x24". With the splitter, he couldn't make it happen.
I have been told it happens most often with sheetgoods that are nearly square (think drawer bottoms out of 1/4 ply or Masonite). It happens when the front (far) side of the sheet lifts up and gets cocked toward the blade. Keeping the sheet pressed down and using the splitter work to prevent this (as would using a sled to cut drawer bottoms and nearly square pieces). As I understand it it is particularly bad with 1/4" pieces because they are light and floppy.
Edited 9/27/2006 12:25 pm ET by K1500
The video was produced by Lon Schleining, and is linked in my post above (for those who've paid, LOL). In the article, he explains how he uses the demonstration in his woodworking classes to demonstrate that kind of kickback.
I can't remember if I had my splitter removed for some reason when it happened to me. If I did, I was stupid. I might have forgotten to replace it after making some other kind of cut. It was a squarish piece of plywood.
It will spin counter-clockwise, and yes! it can catch you in the gut, or in the ribs, or anywhere north of that I suppose. In the video clip, he keeps his hand anchored to the fence. It's chilling how the hand can be pulled into the blade during an incident like this.
I find thin sheetgoods to be the most likely to cause problems.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
K1500 and FG,
Thanks. Yes, I am familiar with the mechanics of a kickback. I cannot believe that anyone will use the saw without a splitter and guard. I don't know if a splitter can be as effective as a riving knife, because a splitter is typically so thin, but is has to be used.
Being thin, it is possible that some of the left edge of the piece between the fence and the blade could contact the rear rising teeth if the piece has rotated.
I don't know if kickback can be completely eliminated, but with splitters/riving knives, guards, hold downs all properly used, they should be very, very rare.
I am a very firm advocate of ripping on the band saw.
I am without a shop at the moment. I really hope I will be able to get the Hammer combination machine I am lusting after. Ripping with that style machine, with the work piece held firmly in the sliding table, and the cut piece dropping away on the right side of the blade, no rip fence involved at all, is something I want to become familiar with.
Rich
The splitter and guard come off the first time somebody uses a damned dado set and usually never goes back on.
I cannot believe that anyone will use the saw without a splitter and guard.
'not to surprising, given that lots of novice woodworkers watch Norm and David Marks every week, and learn that the "experts" don't use splitters, riving knives, or guards.
I always wonder if these two give any thought to the bad example they set, or how many "incidents" they may be partially responsible for .
Barry, I'll bet if we took a poll, the majority of people who don't use a guard or splitter (or neither) would be pros. Just the feeling I get from replies over the years on this subject.
Not to say that your point about Norm et al. is without merit.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/2/2006 10:05 am by forestgirl
Yea, although if these "pros" are employees in someone else's shop, it's a big OSHA violation.
Barry,
Good points.We should all be critical of the "experts" on TV. Some of the things Norm does make me cringe.As just one example, I've seen Norm pass his hands directly over a dado blade as he runs a shelf side through the table saw!!But I found a video that takes the prize for "most irresponsible instructional" video. Check out this outrageous video (click the "watch video" link). The best parts start at 2:00 into the video:
http://www.michaelholigan.com/Departments/TVShow/seg_index.asp?ts%5Fid=5255&mscssid=FPLUTR7SF4CV9HVF93E85NUNFFNV7HQ7I count at least five major table saw offenses.
Edited 10/6/2006 9:23 am ET by MatthewSchenker
WOW!! I couldn't believe the "free-handing the post vertical" part, especially the second cut! I guess Skil doesn't make a tenon jig, so no need to use one in the video.
I watched the video-holy ####!!!
"I watched the video-holy ####!!!"
You took the words right out of my mouth.......
Scrit
OH MAN! That MUST be a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!How can they show people to use a TS that way and not get sued?
Mumda,
I wish it was a joke! But it appears they are serious.On the idea of getting sued, I suppose it would be difficult for someone to prove the video is responsible for an injury. But a video like this does make you wonder.The weird thing is, it almost seems as though they go out of their way to do everything wrong. Starting with little things, like measuring the blade height quickly with a tape measure, and going all the way up to freehanding the notch and cross cutting with the miter gauge and the rip fence.
Edited 10/8/2006 10:58 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
...and don't forget the dado (rabbet) being cut so the waste is trapped between the fence and blade....and, after cutting something, it's held right over the spinning blade to give the cameraman a good view (a classic Norm move).
...and Grandpa referred to a rabbet as a "dado"...LMAO!!!!!
Keep in mind that I do most of my ripping on a Festool guide system and only use the table saw for relatively minor operations.
But you and a couple of thers mentioned that kickback involves "a spinning piece of sheet goods that pulls your hand into the blade." Through the years, I've heard this same statement about kickbacks from many people, and it never quite made sense to me. I always wondered, how can one's hand can get pulled into the blade?
I understand this is somewhat of a technicality, but what I've heard from experts on this subject is that the wood doesn't literally pull your hand in. It's just that, if you're pushing against something, then that thing is suddenly gone, your hand moves into the empty space, which in this case includes a spinning blade.
Even though I always operate my table saw with a guard and a splitter, and use another cutting system 95% of the time anyway, I'd be interested if I'm incorrect here about the "pull your hands into the blade" kickback phenomenon.
Edited 10/4/2006 4:59 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
pulls, pushes, falls... It's just a technicallity. A big one.
I suppose you are correct. Pulling or pushing would require require a physical connection with the wood. Falling of course is not very descriptive of the situation since your hand doesn't need kickback to 'fall' into the blade. In the martial arts we refer to this kind of action as being 'drawn'. (Is that spelled correctly). Essentially you see it in near kickback situations when the wood starts to rise, people tend to lean forward and try to put more pressure.
So I guess I would say the statement should read: " spinning piece of sheet goods that can draw your hand into the blade".
I also note that not all kick back draw your hand into the blade.
In the end regardles sof the word kickback is bad.
I just had my first kick back about 45 min ago. I was cutting a piece of 1/4 sheet of oak ply. I was getting in too big of a hurry. I always stand to the side but, just as I was finishing my cut and I leaned over to turn off the saw. When I leaned down to turn off the saw I moved over in front of the work. The ply kicked back and hit me just below the navel. I thought I had gotten shot. I checked for blood, turned off the saw, and came back in the house. This was an important lesson learned. I am pretty impressed what a 3hp motor can do.
Holy SMokes!! Glad it wasn't your head! Reinforces my opinion that thin ply is sneaky stuff.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You are right I am lucky. My wife and kids are at church. If I had been hurt really bad I don't know how long it would have been before someone came home.
So Miloler, do you know which rule you broke? 1. Never take your hand off of the work until it is past the back of the blade. Almost every saw will have a major wobble in the blade after the switch is turned off before it quits turning. Is that what happened? Or is there something else that we need to look out for?
Well I didn't have the saw turned off yet, but what I think happen was when I leaned over to turn off the saw I inadvertently moved my hand that was holding the material. This put it in a bind and kicked it back. I broke a lot of rules, but the main one I belive was getting in a big hurry. If I had not been in such a hurry I would not stood in front of the stock or taken my eye off the work piece while the saw was running.
Sounds similar to the phenomenon of "car swerve" when someone reaches across the seat to rescue a falling whatever. Only with conscious concentration can the driver not turn the steering wheel when doing that. We lost an Island citizen a couple years ago on the highway that way.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have no idea what MS was picking on, because he's on permanent Ignore for me, but going back and reading my earlier post, if I were to edit it, I might change it to "pulls the hand over or into the blade." It pulls (or draws) the hand because the hand is on the sheet and where the sheet goes, the hand follows. It's so graphic and easy to understand if you see the image clip. As you say, doesn't really matter -- it's dangerous, and that's the point. <grim> It has served Mr. Schleining well in teaching his classes, no reason we can't learn from it too.
Saw a T-shirt at the lumberyard yesterday:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
No safety, know painKnow safety, no pain
Best T-shirt ever...
I know forestgirl is ignoring me, but my response was not "picking on" anything. I was simply wondering out loud about a technicality, and I was careful to point out that I know I may be wrong about it. I would actually like to know if there are in fact circumstances when one's hand can be "pulled" into a table saw blade. I've heard both sides of this claim (it can happen and it cannot happen), and I've been curious about it for a while. That's part of the discussion.If you have someone on permanent ignore, how can you know that the person in question is "picking on" your statements?
Edited 10/5/2006 4:33 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
I know forestgirl is ignoring me, but my response was not "picking on" anything.
Matthew I don't really know you or Forestgirl very well, but I do know some of your history. I must say that when I first read your initial reply to her I thought you were trying to stir things up a little. If I may make a suggestion, for the rest of the knots users, put her on ignore. The bad blood, regardless of your intentions now, is too much for any reasonable discussion to go on between the two of you.
Anyway, questioning technicalities is like correcting someone's spelling. Not always appreciated (See the Krenov plane thread).
I referred to my martial arts training with regards to the term drawn. When the technique is done correctly the opponent often claims to have been physically 'pulled' in, even when there is no contact. Although not correct, it's very descriptive of the feeling.
Buster
Buster,
As a rule, I don't put people on "ignore." If I don't like what the person wrote, I can decide whether to ignore it when I see it.Not to put too fine a point on it, but I wasn't questioning Forestgirl in the least. I was asking an honest question about whether or not it is true that one's hand gets "pulled" into the blade during a kickback. I made clear that I was asking this question to a general audience. You can look at my history here to see that I have often taken part in kickback discussions, and have many times asked others about the "pulled in to the blade" phenomenon.You are correct. There has been bad blood between Forestgirl and me. That's why I went out of my way to state that I may be incorrect, and to make it clear that it was an honest question. I'm not interested in battles here.Anyway, I am curious about this phenomenon.
Edited 10/5/2006 10:40 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Hey Matthew, I suspect that the pulled into the blade thing normally happens when someone is holding a small piece by gripping it from the back and front. If you are trying to hold onto a piece from the back, when the work is grabbed and kicked forward, the hand in the back may be pulled in not so much by the blade, but the muscle tension, and maybe if your hit in the waist area, and get knocked back. I think most people that have a bad kickback, are so shocked, that they don't really know what they did that caused it. When it is all over, all they know is that they were working along, then just out of the blue, something hit them.If you can't go back in your mind and analyze what you were doing just before, and examine the part that got kicked back for the saw marks, or anything that can give you clues to the cause, then you are setting yourself to repeat the same mistake again.
Keith,
Yes, that's the reason I ask these kinds of questions about kickback. I am always interested in understanding the various ways that this terrible situation can unfold. Even though it may seem like a technicality, asking whether you can really get pulled into the blade may help reveal something important.I don't use my table saw very much. But I do use it sometimes -- enough to make sure I do it correctly!Thanks for your input!
M S is trying to get affirmation, and technically he is right if you use the dictionary definition of the word "pulls." But on a kickback we all use a little different meaning. So what. Do you see my answer to him?
Here is one example of how a kickback can put a hand in the blade, when making a plunge cut on a piece of material, if one hand is on the off cut side as you drop down onto the blade the workpiece can be kicked back at you . Since your one hand may be holding the leading edge of the stock , while holding it naturally moves back with the stock .It happens so fast that you see blood before you may feel anything , as I'm told by those who have been there and done that .
With sheet goods your hands are not at as much risk as the rest of your person are .
dusty
Yes, of course, you are right, as everyone knows. When we vacuum the saw dust - does the vacuum pull the sawdust in, or does the outside air rush past the sawdust, picking it up and into the vacuum cleaner. Almost everyone knows the latter case is the fact and we continually refer to the vacuum pulling it in and most people would not question the actual process.
tinkerer,
Well, this is a little more important than the question of how a vacuum cleaner works. If one's hand truly is pulled into the blade, or if it goes into the blade out of momentum, this might indicate something we can do in our technique for safety sake.It's a technicality, of course, if you experience a kickback and get injured. But then again, we can always learn something. That's why I asked the question.
I hate to disagree with you but the "technicality" is not more important. The simple fact is that the woodworker has hold of the workpiece so that the workpiece does not pull the woodworker into the spinning blade, not the other way around -- simple proof enough, . Isn't that the point you are making? The important thing is to take every precaution to avoid the accident.
Simple when dealing with the basic hand fed ripping of solid wood.
Short fence.
Riving Knife.
Crown guard.
Know what you're doing.
Understand wood and its funnyosities.
Know what push sticks are and use them..
That's it. Everything else is basically cobblers.
Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Thanks everyone....all good info!! I think the best recommendation which holds true across the spectrum is having a plan and knowing how to execute. That will not totally eliminate KB or anything else but it is a great start.
Avoiding kickbacks is largely a matter of common sense and following basic operation and setup guidelines, some of which are in the instructions that came with your saw.
The problem for way too many of us is remembering to continue using the practices and equipment (splitters...) that we know are safe but seem inconvenient at times.
Then there is that little voice in your head that instills the sense something you are about to do isn't as safe as it could be. Learn to listen to that voice, stop and think about how that task can be done differently.
I have a story on the table saw basics at the link below that might be of some help along the way.
http://www.newwoodworker.com/basic/tsalign.html
Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
Personally I use a feather-board and stand to the left. I put a red rectangular box in the blade area and under no circumstances are kids allowed in the shop unless ALL the power is off. As for kickback with sheet goods I have learned my lesson. Last fall I was ripping a piece of ply and the whole sheet K/B'd and hit me right above the belt. The piece was 12" x 8" and I had just started the cut. I could drink fluids but couldn't eat solid foods. The doctor said all I did was bruise the area and it would be a few days b4 I could eat solid foods. Man, talk about an instant diet. When I did eat solids it hurt but the pain went away over time. Now I watch the cuts because if the cut starts to close on the outfeed side or the saw starts to bog down I stop the cut and shut the T/S down.
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