I’m making my final decision about which contractor table saw to buy. I am looking at the following models:
– Ridgid TS3612
– Bridgewood TSC-10CL
– Grizzly 1022PROZ
All of these saws have the same basic safety devices (simple anti-kickback pawls and splitter). I’m also going to add Board Buddies and probably an after-market splitter. These safety features seem to help with kickback, but all the safety devices in the world only help to REDUCE the risk of kickback, not ELIMINATE it. Which means that, as a woodworker, we should probably EXPECT kickback to happen at least sometimes.
Should there be equal emphasis on how to PREVENT GETTING INJURED FROM KICKBACK as well as how to PREVENT KICKBACK FROM HAPPENING?
Which brings me to my real questions:
1. Assuming that kickback is going to happen sometimes, what are the CORRECT ways to position yourself during cuts to make sure that you’re not injured when it does happen?
2. Don’t we have to stand on different sides for different cuts?
3. Are we safer standing to the left or to the right?
4. Does kickback ALWAYS happen straight back from the blade?
5. Do Board Buddies make a significant difference?
6. Do Board Buddies in combination with a splitter do even more?
Edited 1/30/2003 10:58:02 AM ET by Matthew Schenker
Replies
I'm admittedly no expert on this subject, but I've gotten some advice from someone who is, to wit: never stand directly in line with the blade; keep your arm in a position such that, if a piece of stock shoots straight back it goes beneath the level of your arm.
As to whether kickback is always straight back, Splintie's experience with having a piece of stock basically rotate and pull her fingers underneath to contact the blade indicates not (Splintie: I hope I got that right!).
IMO, whether to stand to the left or the right is dictated by what position gives the operator the best control over the stock. Of course a big part of preventing kickback is havin the stock managed properly with respect to the fence, or the miter gauge, or an angled blade, etc.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Not a table saw expert by any means, but you raise one question I'd also like some further info on.
Anyone with experience with board buddies please weigh in with you opinions on them.
Of course, I tend to like to make my own gadgets, so I was thinking of building something like the picture I enclosed.
Using some old inline skate wheels. Angle the wheels slightly so the push the work towards the fence. And, there's a metal pivot arm between the wheels that only allows them to rotate freely in one direction. If they try to rotate the other way the pivot arm jams them.
But, with the sheer number of projects I have going I'd probably be wiser to just buy them.
There was a very good article in one of the other publications a year or two ago that dealt with this subject (could try a Google search). The author used a piece of Styrofoam to to demonstrate how kickback occurs to his class at the beginning of a new class. Apparently the results are quite dramatic. His tests show that kickback occurs when the back teeth of the saw blade contact the wood outside of the kerf. The slow mo reply of the Styrofoam show when the blade grabs the material, it rotates it into the blade and then throws it toward the front of the saw.
Suggestions for prevention. Always use the splitter - should prevent the wood from rotating onto the blade. Toe your fence out a 1/32 to help guide the wood away from the blade. Stand to the fence side R or BL depending on your setup.
I've had it happen with a small piece of maple, which took off so quick and hit my furnace so hard it almost went right through the gal. sheet metal on the Air conditioning condenser. Heck of a dent now.
Greg
Hello everyone,
I've been reading this forum for a while now and this is the first time have been motivated to respond. On the subject of table saw kickback. I've been using a small European saw (Inca) for about 25 years and kickback has never been an issue with this saw. The table is about 20'' front to back and the fence extends only 15''. An attachment to the fence makes it effectively 10" long ending at the center of the blade. This arrangement virtually eliminates binding. When I first saw this fence I was dubious but it has worked beautifully and kickback doesn't happen.
J. Gese, Spokane
If I did my dimensional analysis correctly...
At 3,600 rpm a 10" blade has an equivalent linear velocity of about 105 mph.
A 12" blade spinning at the same rate clocks in at almost 130 mph linear velocity.
F=ma and E=mV
Getting plunked with a 9 oz. baseball from a puss-armed lefty throwing 70 mph junk can be a painful experience. The amount of energy even a small piece of wood possesses at table saw speeds, and the amount of force created as it suddenly accelerates from zero to over 105 mph in less than a second is devastating.
I can't imagine working without a table saw. Purely as an exercise for myself, I was able to plane/joint/rip my way to some four-square pieces for a small table. I still had to rely on the table saw for an accurate cross-cut, and I've NEVER been able to correctly do tenons exclusively on a band saw.
I have a great deal of respect and admiration for anyone with the creativity, knowledge and skills to design their workflow without the need for a table saw. And I could learn something from you.
tony b.
Edited 2/1/2003 11:19:00 PM ET by YOTONYB
I bought some Board Buddies and don't like them. One of them doesn't even stop the wheels from rotating backwards anymore.
I prefer Grip-Tites. I think they're more robust and more likely to perform as advertised.
But there is no substitute for smart use of the saw, including the use of feather boards and push sticks.
John
Matt,
I don't like this discussion, especially when I read that 6000 body parts are removed every year by woodworkers..or stories like Splinte's where good technique, etc. still didn't help. I can't think of a cut where at some point some part of my body is not vulnerable. Do the automatic feeders reduce the risk to the least possible?
I can't tell you much about how kickback happens or anything like that, but i can tell you it hurts like hell to be hit. I had a 12 by 18 by .5 in oak board kick back on me. It hit me on the hip before it bounced off me and busted in 2 pieces on the wall. It left a bruise the size of my fist on my hip for about a week.
BG, if I recall correctly, Splintie's accident was primarily due to a fault with the fence. A push-stick would have gone a long way to preventing what was the final outcome though.
(Tonight, if Splintie doesn't see this and chime in, I'll try to find the thread and post a link.)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You had it right about my accident being due to what i judge to be poor design on the part of my Unifence's lock-down mechanism. The fence worked loose on the 30th cutting board i pushed past it barehanded, something i never, ever do anymore. I do a lot of double-checking of the handle, too, to make sure it's perpendicular to the rails and can't rattle out of the track. I don't use the guard and splitter, but someone might wonder if i've captured the market on pushsticks; i never use only my hand anymore to push a piece past the blade. A proper feed rate seems the most essential element for avoidance of overheating the wood so it pinches or the blade so it wobbles.
I can't remember ever having one of these classic kickbacks from pinching the blade, except for trying to trim blueboard (polystyrene foam) on the saw. It heated up, melted, went airborne...a handsaw works well instead. <G>
Matthew,
Kickback and keeping your digits out of the blade are two things that you should have in mind every time you're using your table saw. In my opinion, kickback is caused by user error and it it most likely to occur when one of two conditions are true: 1) your blade is low relative to the thickness of the piece being cut, and 2) the piece you're working is relatively small and close to being square.
Per the artical that Greg referenced above, kickback is caused by allowing your workpiece to move away from the fence and into the blade on the outfeed end of the saw. As this end moves slightly away from the fence, the most distant teeth of the blade that are rising out of the table begin to cut into the wood on the fence side of the kerf and the under side of the workpiece starting a lifting of the workpiece. When this biting and lifting begins, it sorta snowballs and virtually instantly the workpiece is picked up off the table, rides across the top of the blade and is heaved toward the sawyer. The dents in the wall and radiators and such, attest to the violence of the heave.
In my opinion, a diligent user can never have kickback, just as a diligent woodworker can keep all his fingers, but they are dangers that we all fear. In this instance, this fear is a healthy thing. Be alert to potential developing problems, keep your work tight to the fence and firmly down on the table and you should be alright as far as kickback goes.
jdg
Edited 1/30/2003 6:00:53 PM ET by jdg
Good description.
Another type of kickback I've seen is from wood expanding and binding against the fence when cut. I've found that if I'm cutting 'reactive wood', that using a short fence helps as it allows the wood to expand towards the fence w/o binding. Of course if the saw curf closes, you better have a splitter, or it can kick back also.
A short fence is just another face attatched to the face of your fence that isn't as long, extending to about the middle of your saw blade. Sometimes this can reduce kickback.
A great tip I learned from people on this site. Thanks whoever passed it on. I prefer my long fence for many things, but ripping solid woods this short fence is a good idea.
Jdg,
I like the thought that being careful and diligent will protect you. However, one of the first things I cut on my new cabinet saw was a 8/4 x7"x7' piece of maple. As the wood got about a foot past the blade the wood from internal stress started to bend away from the fense and toward the blade. I was too far from the end of the board to do anything...but not too far from the switch. I figured I got lucky. I did have the spliter on but still..
Edited 1/30/2003 6:59:01 PM ET by BG
So you figure just diligence won't do it, huh? lol. I'm open to that. I pray a lot too.
Perhaps I should install some of those safety devices that came with my saw, huh.
jdg
Yes, use the safety devices. Yes, exercise LOTS of diligence. Think through each cut before you turn on the saw, asking yourself if there is anything at all that can be done to make it safer. If the answer is yes, then don't turn on the saw.
Prevention through this kind of diligence is the only hope, because when a kickback happens, you will not be able to react. A piece of wood from a tablesaw can move almost as fast as a bullet. You won't be able to move out of the way.
Although I didn't lose my thumb, it is still about 70% numb from the nerve damage that happened in a kickback about two years ago -- and I have had microsurgery to reconnect the nerves,a nd reconstruct the thumb. The kicked-back wood hit me and ripped my thumb open. Also caused my hand to move, which let my index finger gently bump the blade. Thankfully, the finger just lost a lot of skin, and it healed.
Happened so fast that I didn't even see it.
The voice of experience is always good to hear. Thanks for your comments.
jdg
I have to tell everyone, every time I read discussions like this it makes me want to find other ways to cut wood, and to stay away from table saws altogether. Actually, for more than a year I have been doing woodworking without a table saw, after I sold a small model I used to have. I am looking now for one because I started to feel like I must get one. But I am starting to wonder about this.
The question for me is, "What exactly do I need one for?" This is not a rhetorical question. The answe is kind of easy: straight rip cuts and dadoes. I do all my cross-cutting on a SCMS, and all my edging on the router.
I think, given all the safety issues, that I am going to look into other options. I know I've been down this road before, and it looks like I am going to balk again.
Does anyone have experience with the Jointability, made by Hawk tools (http://www.rbiwoodtools.com/s/static/jointability_one/jointability_one.htm)? This device looks like a good substitute for table saw/jointer setup. It is sold by Hartville Tools (http://www.hartvilletool.com).
Thanks everyone for great responses.
Keep the comments coming!
>> I am going to look into other options. I know I've been down this road before, and it looks like I am going to balk again.
What? Are you kidding? The table saw is the center of a woodworking shop. How on earth can you have a shop without a table saw (unless maybe you have a good radial arm saw)? I just can't believe what you're saying!
jdg
Edited 1/30/2003 8:47:23 PM ET by jdg
jdg,
Matthew has a very good point. A table saw is not absolutely required. Read the comments of Gary Rogowski in FWW's first Tools and Shops edition of 2001-2002. It is a survey of what he believes are the five essential power tools for the shop. I believe there is a subtitle which indicates the tablesaw is not necessarily in the group. As I recall, he suggests the bandsaw be used for a lot more operations than at first come to mind using conventional thinking. I think he suggests routers for dadoes, but the bandsaw for ripping (a lot less waste with the thinner kerf, too). It's hard for me to figure what to do with sheet goods on a bandsaw, but the ripping I can certainly get my mind around. I guess it depends on the kind of work one does.
Just a thought. For what it's worth, my own tablesaw is what I use most, probably because I started that way and am very comfortable with it. But I am on the verge of dropping a few coins on a new bandsaw. This is partly on account of Rogowski's logic and partly because of seeing so many book matched panels at a student's exhibition at the College of the Redwoods last year. Balance-symmetry-beauty. It turned my whole thinking around.
Cheers,
Greg
I never saw a band saw make a dead straight cut, but there are many bandsaws that I havn't used.
And if you think kickback is a danger on a table saw, play around with a radial arm saw for a while. On an old 5 HP, I've tossed a 3" x 8" x 8'-0" - oh, say about 35'. That'll get your attention if you live to remember it. The defense department doesn't have anything on this missle. It's been a while - 17 years ago, but it made such an impression on me that that's how I remember it. It's possible it was a 3 x 6 and it really only went 25'. lol
jdg
Edited 1/31/2003 10:05:26 AM ET by jdg
Edited 1/31/2003 10:09:30 AM ET by jdg
I'm trying to learn how to replace every thing I do with power tools with hand tools. Among other things, I'm trying to protect what's left of my hearing after flying helicopters in the USN for twenty years. But unless they bring back indentured servitude, or the apprenticeship system, boards are not going to be ripped by handsaws in my shop. Simply a non-starter. So the table saw will always be there and will always be used, if only for ripping.
Maybe you can do it some other way, but I couldn't. I just built a rack beside my tablesaw with push sticks, featherboards, googles, ear muffs, jigs, clamps, cuttoff boxes, etc. So it's a matter of Gear up and let her rip! Ed
Matt,
For about a year I explored the idea of a big bandsaw as a substitute for the Table Saw...I heard several years ago that it is a popular alternative in England. Last fall was decision time..a TS or an 16-18" bandsaw. I went with the TS for the same reasons you stated...squaring up stock, high quality cuts.
It's hard to explain what an impact the TS has had on practically every aspect of the hobby. First of all it gets used a lot more than I ever thought it would. I can take paper thin cuts with the cross sled....I don't use the CMS very much any more. The tenon jig can be used in many different ways, especially on small stock. I can slice up thicker stock for real wood draw sides.
The point is a TS takes you to another level of quality that cannot be equaled by any other piece of equipment. My wife could not understand why I hardley used it at all for the first two weeks. I told her the truth, I was affraid of it...and until I got comfortable with a new protocol and had all the safety attachments made for using with it...I was going to stay away. She pointed out to me that the next month I used 300 kilowatt hours. Good luck with what ever you decide
When it pulls away form the fence you get a kick back.
Operator error.
Stand right up to the saw -Don't let it scare you respect it-Don't try to stand to the side you will get hurt-Use a good sharp blade- let the saw cut- keep the top of the saw waxed very important
I don't use any of that stuff, myself I would not put all that crap on a saw it just gets in the way.I do use push sticks.
I use a Delta Unisaw 3hp all day long 5 days a week.I rip Hard Maple- Red Oak -Walnut -Cherry you name it. I really push it which you should not do" really hog the motor down" and its not long stuff its usually less than 12 in. long. Some times even If you do everything right it may bind the blade and it can hit you. Just don't panic keep those fingers out of that blade. Kickback might hurt like hell but you cant grow back fingers.
Respect the saw don't be scared to death of it, It can be a good old buddy or an old son of a #$%^.
1/4 in plywood is the worst thing for kick back it will get you if you are not careful
Also I would look at getting a real saw DELTA
Edited 1/30/2003 7:59:12 PM ET by ron61
Matthew,
I think The Tablesaw Book written by Kelly Mehler and published by Taunton Press is a must read for every woodworker. It will answer all of the questions that you are asking. He discusses proper stance, causes of kick back, and some remedies. You will have much more confidence using your forthcoming tablesaw once you feel that you have a full understanding of the topic.
The recent Fine Woodworking article that discusses this topic was written by Lon Schleining. I have been unable to find the issue in my piles, so I can't give you the issue number.
Not to change the nature of this thread, but I am about to purchase a saw in the price range that you mention. I am probably going to get the General International contractor's saw with the left tilt. It has cast iron wings and a Canadian made Biesemeyer clone fence for $649.
Cheers
Kyle
Matthew,
I agree with jdg. With proper diligence, kickback can always be an avoidable hazard, not something that is fated to happen. My Dad taught industrial arts for 36 years in junior high schools and never had a serious accident due to kickback. He did let 9th graders (not all of them) experience the use of the tablesaw with proper training and safety procedures. He guided their hands with his hands, foot on the power cutoff switch, for the first few cuts.
Like jdg says, keep the work flat on the table and snugly against the fence. Do not stand in line with the blade. All of the 2 or 3 or 5 horsepower is in a plane with the blade. Keeping out of the way of a broken blade tooth or braze joint failure is just as good a reason as the possibility of a kickback for not standing in the plane of the blade.
Maintain good balance. Do not reach over the blade.
Use push sticks and featherboards.
Do not become inattentive.
Read Roger W. Cliffe, Table Saw Basics, or get some junior high school or high school industrial arts teacher show you how to use the table saw safely.
BTW: My Dad's worst two accidents in the shop in 36 years:
1) My Dad is breaking up a fight between two boys. Another boy manages to get the jointer turned on and sticks his hand down into the knives.
2) Two girls start skylarking. One of them begins to run around a bench, slips and hits her head on a bench vise. When she regained consciousness in the hospital, the first thing she said was, "Mr. Harrison told us not to run in the shop."
Those were the worst two in 36 years. Good luck with your tablesaw. Ed
Dear Matthew,
Your questions are sound, and the right answer is what is best for you. There are wood workers who do not use a table saw. Some will argue a bandsaw is better or radial arm saw, etc. I expect there are wood workers who use handsaws only.
I chose to use a tablesaw, starting out with a Craftsman "Best" back in the mid-seventies. It had a 1 HP motor, reaching 2 HP under no load. I had a desire for wood work and I knew in my heart an electric tablesaw would serve me better than my handsaws, and my circular, jig, etc. saws I had. I learned on my own by reading and pushing wood through the saw. Later, I was able to afford a Powermatic 66 TS, 3 HP, which has worked well. The brand or name of the saw doesn't make as much of difference; it is your desire that is what is important. This was mine.
I had kickback several times with my Crafstman. It was my fault, not the saw's. I learned concentration, at least enough to get the wood through w/o kickback. I don't use any special order devices as splitters, pawls, etc. The concentration I learned is also used with other tools, whether hand or electrical.
Six and one-half years ago, I met a cabinet maker of 45 years experience. He still had his fingers, knowledge, and a sharp wit. Many in his shop, two who are better technically than he is he admits at his 68 y/o of age , and one who is faster that he is, have lost a digit or had other accidents. He shared that when he pushes a board through, whenever possible, he rests his hand on the fence with the thumb and 2nd finger on the board being cut. This hand in this position slides down the fence as he cuts the wood. He uses his other hand to keep the board to the fence when applicable, as in cutting 4' x 8' sheets of plywood. He uses push sticks with narrow boards. He also uses crosscut shopmade tables, sleds, etc.
Do what is fun for you, what is exciting! Safety was what my friend described above, which isn't only about wood working. You might look in to the WoodWorking Cafe below in this Forum, "RichardJ: Where/why did Sgian go?". Though it is philosophical, you may find a thread that suits you in helping best decide what you want to do with wood, etc. I wish I had the scientific knowledge your questions asked, though I hope my experience has lended a hand. Enjoy!
Regards,
Turbo
I was told by a Cabinet shop class instructor that in Europe, open saw basdes are outlawed in cabinet shops. I guess they learned about lost fingers & kickback a long, long time ago
This is a subject that can't be repeated often enough, so here's my 2 cents.
I do not like splitters as they have the potential to actually inititate kick back. Yes, the direction of throw is straight back, except for pieces of plywood that are thrown as they ride up over the blade, These can actuallly spin like a boomerang. I always stand to the left and would feel off-balance anywhere else. I don't know what a board buddy is, but I see advantage in working on an clear table top. I don't want anything around that might cause a piece of wood to get hung up. For that reason, I don't trust feather boards either.
If you are right handed, you will want to stand to the left, but no so far that you're in an uncomfortable position.
Well, my experience is that most kick back occurs AFTER the cut is made, usually when one of the two cut pieces gets caught by the blade. To avoid this, push the work ALL the way PAST the blade.
If you are pushing a piece into the blade and you are getting resistence - as when reaction wood twists against the blade - one should stop pushing and back the piece out carefully. Once I feel any binding, I QUIT cutting that piece. Reaction wood is exceedingly dangerous and I avoid it like the plague.
NEVER SAW TWISTED BOARDS . . . NEVER.
Blades not parallel to table tops and fences are another big culprit. Dull blades are like dull knives, you're much more likelyto be injured by them, causing much more friction and thus more llikely to "grab" the wood.
Small pieces are the worst offenders, particularly thin pieces of plywood. Don't use the fence when you should be using the mitre gauge. The only two kickback injuries I've had in 25 years or so, were from plywood and using the fence,
Gummy pine is also dangerous.
Watch out for blades that make a lot of wind for some are worse than others. My Woodworker II is real good at actually blowing small pieces up to be caught on the teeth to end up as shrapnel in your belly. Again, get the cut off piece away from the blade fast.
When cutting small pieces I use a very sharp ice pick as a push stick. If it is reaction wood and I feel resistence, I just let the damn thing go (while standing aside, of course). There are a bunch of holes in the drywall behind the saw to remind me of where I shouldn't be standing. If the blade does really grab the wood, I want to be prepared to let it go and be out of the way, not to try to stop it. That's why I use ice picks instead of push sticks. No chance of forcing anythign that way.
Know the rules and THINK BEFORE YOU CUT. Every time . . . .
Right on Dave
I'm with you all those gadgets are bunk on the saw just get in the way and cause more problems than they solve. Like you said the only kick backs I have had in the past 10years are from leaving off fall by the blade.
Pain is the best teacher
Edited 1/31/2003 7:00:00 PM ET by ron61
Good Advice.
There is one part of your advice that I believe is just plain wrong. It is when you say,
"If you are pushing a piece into the blade and you are getting resistence - as when reaction wood twists against the blade - one should stop pushing and back the piece out carefully. Once I feel any binding, I QUIT cutting that piece. Reaction wood is exceedingly dangerous and I avoid it like the plague. "
I think that instead of backing the piece out carefully, you should stop pushing, turn the saw off and let the blade coast to a stop.
No one should pull a workpiece toward the back side of a blade.
Good suggestion on the wheels.
? Did you angle the wheels so they'd help push the stock towards the fence?
HINT: might not want to listen to people with less than 10 digits?
Sounds like you have never used a table saw?
If I were you I would have someone with experience and 10 digits let you watch them use the saw.
You can lose a hand in the blink of an eye.
Be very very careful of those waskley wabbits
The below article is worth a read. It describes the workpiece-spinning-over-the-blade type of kickback, along with some high-speed photos. I don't remember whether it talks about straight-back kickback.
Lon Schleining article 'Tablesaw Kickback' from FWW #139
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00066.asp
Another article on aftermarket devices.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00130.asp
There have been threads here about guards and splitters as well, especially one long one in the last month or so. Try 'splitter' or 'tablesaw guard' in the search function.
All the best,
Chris
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