Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to which is the best paint to use when painting wooden toys for toddlers/kids. Assume that the toys will go into the mouths.
Thanks
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As far as being safe, it doesn't matter. All paints are safe once they are fully cured. Unless you somehow have some from 50 years ago that still used lead as a drying agent.
You raise an interesting point - how do we know they are safe? Some folks have said that even with heavy metal dryers - really catalysts for oxidation - once the finish is fully cured they are safe. But what happened to the heavy metals? - they are catalysts which by definition just hang around to help the reaction occur but they are not involved in the actual oxidation or they would be considered a reactant.
Now they don't "disappear" because that would violate basic laws of Physics/Chemistry. And they don't vaporize because they are heavy metals. So they still must be there. Which means if a child starts chewing on a painted item, they will ingest heavy metals if they are present in the finish. Now that presence may miniscule to the point of almost "chatter or background" percent compositions, but to a hysterical parent, 1 part per million of a heavy metal is too much, regardless of what the FDA or other agencies say.
Mattel apologized for their poor engineering for their China made toys and dismissed the lead paint as a very small amount of toys. Yet mention Mattel to anyone and they are going to say they're the folks with lead paint in their toys, never mind the engineering issues.
There is an old saying that goes "opinions are like noses, everyone has one" - better to base decisions on data. Are there heavy metal dryers in finishes, how much and what does the Medical Community consider the threshold for these metals in the body? Getting this info is tough - when faced with this problem, I opt for at least an FDA approved product FDA12, 175.300 listing - darn hard to find but at least a starting point.
I don't think that the FDA has declared any paint or finish as being safe for kids to chew on, or to eat from. If I am wrong please point out the ones I have missed.
The FDA is smart enough to not validate any specific product but instead outlines all the components not allowed or are acceptable in products that touch food. Tried & True is the only finish I have found who states they are in full compliance with FDA 21.
The Old Fashion Milk Paint Company also states they product contains no dryers and is safe but they don't refer to the FDA rule. Other folks - including J.E. Moser and Behlen do have alternative oils like Walnut oil that apparently also do not contain and heavy metal dryers and they state they are food safe, but no reference to the FDA.
Unfortuantely this is a very litiguous world so it is better to be safe.
It gets to be complicated I think. The FDA doesn't declare anything as "safe", but it has published regulations for such things as food contact materials. Those regulations generally specify specific materials allowed and define testing regimens. Companies seeking to sell into that market then have to certify compliance, usually with independent lab tests. All this gets expensive, so manufacturer's don't do this unless they need to for the market.
What it also means is that lots of products might well meet the requirements, but don't choose to bear the added testing and monitoring expenses. So a great many products are in fact safe. I think this is easier to be sure about with clear finishes than with paint, where the added dimension of pigments complicates knowing what is or isn't safe.
There are dyes which have been certified so a lot of the issues can be avoided by dying wood toys and then coating with a clear coat. Shellac comes closest to being completely safe, though I doubt pharmaceutical grade shellac is going to be available.
By the way, I don't think hysterical parents need to be humored--hysterical means going over the top, and isn't the same as being concerned.
But absolute safety in all aspects of life is never possible. The issue where to draw the line. Obviously lead pigment is of concern. But parts per million driers that while present may not be in bioavailable forms may cost too much to be eliminated.
Steve, From what I've read, almost all the products in this realm are NOT safe and it seems very naive to make an assumption otherwise. Why do you think its easy to assume a finish is safe because its clear? Does that mean drinking water is safe because its clear? I think 'concerned' and 'hysterical' are very subjective terms. You should call me hysterical because I don't buy into "most products are probably safe". Paint and related finishings are some of the most unsafe products we consume. How do you convince someone to pay you for an extremely toxic substance they will spread over most of their living space and breath in the contaminants for months/years? Answer: call it 'paint' and put it in the hardware store. As a parent, homeowner, and novice woodworker, I like the Milk Paint suggestion someone else posted and I plan on looking into that. Same for the comments about shellac. I feel better knowing there are alternatives. Seems a lot more useful than 'keep consuming the same old products until they are proven harmful'. Andy
It's also naive to automatically assume anything you read, with respect to a technical question such as this, is valid. Especially if it's on the internet. Especially if it was written by a Liberal Arts major. ;) And most especially, if it wasn't written in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
Nor does it follow that anything "natural" is automatically safe. Bubonic plague, anthrax, and methanol are all 100% natural.
We live in a litigious society where paper coffee cups warn that coffee could be hot and where manufacturer's operating manual take three pages to warn of every and all hazards. The paint labels tell us to be aware that old paint being removed could have lead. They warn of the dangers of breathing solvents and of silica in spray mist or sanding dust. They don't tell us to avoid using them on toys or kitchen tables. They would be seeking to protect themselves from liability if they thought it a risk.
You say "Paint and related finishings" are some of the most unsafe products we consume. I suspect your car or your bath tub are probably much more dangerous as well as just about any power tool. While your SawStop might protect your fingers, hand saws and chisels can still work havoc on the body.
I think you are seriously over-estimating the risks from such products that we face as consumers. Most finishes are only extremely hazardous before they cure and those risks are largely from the solvents which evaporate. The evaporation is relatively quick, though the full cure a process which isn't immediate, risks will disappate rapidly over a matter of weeks with reasonable ventilation. The metallic driers are present but incorporated into the film--essentially encased in plastic.
Nothing wrong with using shellac as a primary finish--I like it, but it comes complete with methanol to be breathed while it is applied. Of course, methanol can make you blind. How safe are the metal oxides that make up pigments for milk paint?
Nothing is totally safe. But the typical risks of paint finishes are dwarfed into insignificance when set against the ordinary risks of daily living. The way I see it one should take care when applying finishes, but that when they are cured remaining risks are so low as to be generally ignored, especially since there aren't many good alternatives.
>They don't tell us to avoid using them on toys or kitchen tables. They would be seeking to protect themselves from liability if they thought it a risk. Seriously Steve? How do you explain tobacco and oil? Not only do they not warn you of the long term dangers that have been know for decades, they vigorously defend themselves in court and in scientific journals knowing they are wrong. And the worst part: they've largely gotten away with it. Somehow I'm to believe paint mfgrs play by different rules? >You say "Paint and related finishings" are some of the most unsafe products we consume. I suspect your car or your bath tub are probably much more dangerous as well as just about any power tool.I don't think people respect cars enough but that's not the point here. Cars and tubs pose a obvious immediate threat you can avoid (or at least mitigate) if you *want* to. The threat by chemicals, especially the ones we have been raised with, are more long term and pose threats to the whole family. Your woodworking tools do not (I hope). The big mystery of what causes cancer has been postulated in many studies but the marketers and lyers, er, lawyers have refuted any evidence. I just choose to believe a different type of professional than you do. If you use a TS fence, get air bags in your car, apply rubber mats to the bottom of your tub, why not try to make your living space more healthy? >I think you are seriously over-estimating the risks from such products that we face as consumers. Most finishes are only extremely hazardous before they cure and those risks are largely from the solvents which evaporate. The evaporation is relatively quick,I don't think I am. VOCs from plastics, paints, finishes, carpets leach into house air for much more than weeks. Most houses are NOT well ventilated. You do the math. A recent study I read said the average house air is ten times more polluted than outside air. >Nothing wrong with using shellac as a primary finish--I like it, but it comes complete with methanol to be breathed while it is applied. Of course, methanol can make you blind. How safe are the metal oxides that make up pigments for milk paint?I don't know but I would like to find out. Does anyone here have anything *objective* to share about these two finishes? That's what I'd like to hear more about. >Nothing is totally safe. But the typical risks of paint finishes are dwarfed into insignificance when set against the ordinary risks of daily living. The way I see it one should take care when applying finishes, but that when they are cured remaining risks are so low as to be generally ignored, especially since there aren't many good alternatives. Where do you draw the line? Melamine in toothpaste? You can choose to throw up your arms but I do not. Difference of opinion. Just needed to express mine since it didn't seem to be reflected in this thread to this point. Perhaps I'm an alarmist. That would just be a matter of opinion also. Andy
I think you make the point, since tobacco packages have had warning labels for decades. Tobacco companies have hardly gotten away with anything given the many billions of dollars paid or to be paid as a result of litigation. Industry has learned that it can remove much of the risk of litigation by warning of risks rather than hiding them. It has been the alleged hiding of risks that has resulted in litigation settlements--another example is the asbestos industry where virtually all companies that had sold significant amounts of the product have been bankrupted.
The entire question of indoor air pollution is complex. But what does seem clear is that there are a wide range of sources of the pollutants, sources that extend well beyond paints and finishes. If most houses are not well ventilated, improving ventilation would seem to be the most promising avenue for improvement rather than focusing on a few marginal source contributors. (The house I currently have underconstruction will be relatively tight and will have a fresh air heat exchanger to provide ventilation with less energy use than opening a window.)
Tobacco companies were legislated to add those warnings. They did not volunteer. In fact, they have paid a handful of well known scientists to refute all the other scientists findings just to introduce doubt. It worked very well. (One was interviewed recently on a popular news show.) Its also well known that they actually added nicotene to make them more addictive. The evidence of how well their tactics work is that they are still around and making lots of money. The fines they have paid (which obviously are also not voluntary) are nothing compared to their profits over the years.
You can cite examples like this of companies that have been publicly fined, shamed, or otherwise penalized but the fact is they do get away with murder, literally.
I hardly made any case that companies provide warnings and sell safe products even without being tested/certified. Au contraire.
Andy
"Does anyone here have anything *objective* to share about these two finishes?"
http://www.milkpaint.com/downloads/MSDS_MILK-PAINT_04.pdf
When I ran a high school woodworking program, we used both the milk paint and shellac when we made toys. Mind you, milk paint will not give you that vibrant, gloss finish that you see on items in most toy stores. But it does soak in and will probably last some time. You can experiment with a shellac top coat to perhaps give some gloss.
After taking some professional cooking classes, I won't use wood for any food prep or cooking - just serving simple things like salads. After reading Harold McGee's book, "On Food and Cooking" - an 800 page tome that explores the chemistry of food - I quickly found we know so little about the ultimate compounds formed when many items are cooked that I would be concerned about their reaction to wood finishes. I love wood but it doesn't have a place in mixing or cooking - just in serving at best.
Is there any reason to avoid using unfinished wood in cooking? I would think of wood like Ipe or Wenge (being fire, bug, and mold resistant) but I think they are toxic by themselves.
Andy
Unfinished wood can be and I emphasize can be hazardous because certain species can and do contain small amounts of toxic compounds. Some people are allergic to these compounds - certain woods that I turn cause me to have severe sinus problems (I used a sealed mask now).
When I was doing the cooking thing, we all learned to do "reductions" - boil to reduce say beef or veal stock to make an intensely flavored sauce (demi-glaze). One chap suggested doing a reduction of vinegar to produce more "bite" - reducing vinegar simply makes it more concentrated till you reach very concentrated glacial acetic acid (vinegar is a dilute version of acetic acid). Imagine dumping some very concentrated acid on your salad (and salad bowl) - it would tear up any wood species, let alone the salad or you.
Walnut seems to be a popular wood for salad bowls - they even sell walnut oil as a finish - I think Woodworkers Supply has it - check out their finishing section, very comprehensive.
Thanks. I have not worked exotic woods yet but I have some and also a filtered mask for when I do.
Are you suggesting Walnut is a wood that can be used unfinished with food?
Andy
You never know - someone could have an allergy to walnut so I can't say. It's amazing the allergies that folks have today so be very careful. Lots of turners do use walnut for bowls and then move on to exotics. If I make a bowl for salads or for making baking dough, I'd just be conservative and use maple - it's hard, takes a nice chip and seasons easiy with Tried & True (you don't have to finish it, but do clean it after use.
I don't use wood anymore in the kitchen - hardened surface plastic cutting boards, stainless bowls, silicon high temperature spatulas, etc. Easy to clean and santize, particularly after doing work on chicken!
This is getting a little off topic, but do you also use the soft silicone sheets in the oven? I'm trying to get my wife (her half of the household work includes cooking) to use them on baking sheets instead of our food being on teflon or aluminum. A little less convenient in the dishwasher though. Andy
I have some wonderful commercial tinned cooking sheets that I picked up years ago for a really good price. All three are nicely seasoned and do a good job of heat transfer. I'm not a fan of Teflon, but there are a few baking recipes that apparently do better with a quick release pan.
I see many bakers/chefs use parchment paper - available in rolls at grocery stores where foil is sold. Parchment is great - you don't get product sticking on the pan and cleanup is simply throwing away (or recycling) the parchment.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/woodvsplascu.html
I've given a link regarding the use of plastic cutting boards versus wood. There's arguments to both sides and it used to be plastic won out over wood in most arguments, but lately more arguments are being added to support wood cutting boards over plastic.charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
Interesting link about wood vs plastic. I had read that earlier. We use wood and glass cutting boards here and disinfect with soap and/or vinegar. (Not sure what species of wood the board is cause I didn't make it.)Andy
The reference is very interesting but is directed to the consumer audience. Commercial facilities/kitchens licensed by health departments are required to have dishwashing facilities that wash at 170 degrees F - higher than domestic dishwashers. Wood does not stand up to this cleaning but certain models of plastic cutting boards do. Some licensing agencies may permit wood boards but the cleansing/sanitation required is brutal on the wood, so it doesn't last as long.
Edited 9/28/2007 7:59 am ET by ETG
Thanks. I've been browsing the site and we appear to have a local dealer in town.
The stuff is sold in powder form. I like this line in the MSDS: Avoid contact with moisture/water until ready to use. :)
Andy
Carya,
You should be aware that the methanol in shellac comes via the denatured alcohol it is 2% of the gallon. They use 2% methanol to ensure that it's not used a a cheap drunk by highschool kids (Hence the "denaturing process". Alcohol which is what we drink upon completion of the project.. We drink alcohol when we drink a beer or have wine or whatever.. too much alcohol is not good but in moderation it's even recommended by the health profession.. I personally enjoy an occasional glass of wine!
I digress. the methanol in shellac is pretty minute being only 2% again it's there so high school kids don't go to the hardware store for a cheap drunk. If the 2% bothers you, you could subsitute medical or labratory grade alcohol and shellac will still work beautifully (simply be more expensive)
So shellac which is a naturally reoccuring item coming from the Lac bug of India and sustainably harvested and alcohol combine together to form shellac.. the alcohol disolves the lac "sap" and allows it to be spread evenly the alcohol then evaporates quickly to allow it to protect and bring out the natural beauty of the wood. If that 2% is scary you do have choices as I said.. I personally open the windows to minimise breathing alcohcol. the first coat dries inside of 15 minutes and all the fumes are gone by that time, the second coat which melts into the first coat takes twice as long to dry 30 minutes, and the third and usually final coat takes an hour to dry, so inside of two hours from start the fumes are gone is any potential danger of breatheing methanol..
Thanks for the explanation frenchy. I'm actually not worried at all about a little alcohol in shellac. It should evaporate quickly while drying. Otherwise, I juse have to be ok with smearing bug juice on my work. ;) Shellac does look like a fairly safe product to use. Now I'll be interested in its qualities: benefits and limitations on my finished work. This woodworking stuff seems to take a LONG time and I don't want to ruin it with the wrong finish (or bad application). Andy
Carya,
I really should get a commision on shellac ;-) I spend so much time touting it!
Shellac is one of the hardest toughest finishes there is. it's got a reputation of being delicate because it's used on antiques which usually are delicate.. I use it on my floor and my 150 pound dog can't ruin it.. If he did damage it it's insanely easy to fix.. just grab a little denatured alcohol rub it briskly for a moment , say abra cadabra if kids are present and the scratch-be-gone!..
Three things affect shellac.. alcohol but you really should be drinking that single malt scotch not pourit on wood ;-) actually if you're quick with a towel shellac won't be much affected. Amonia and amonia based cleaning products and water.. Now water doesn't affect shellac instantly, MY airconditioner overflowed and water poured all over the floor for several hours. When I splashed thru it and discovered it I grabbed a couple of towles and dried it out. I expected it to be all white in the morning but it wasn't.
If somehow you do manage to mess things up, no sanding is required. simply wipe off the damage with denatured alcohol and put some new shellac on the spot that got messed up.. New Shellac melts old shellac so you wind up with a seamless repair that takes minutes to do..
You're going to fall in love with shellac. It really brings out the beauty in wood and it's other virtures and ease of application will quickly make you a real lover of shellac..
Steve,
while the denatured alcohol used in shellac may have 2% methanol it may also be something else.. All it has to have is something to make it not drinkable so high school kids don't shop at the hardware store to get a cheap drunk.. That varoies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but the bottom line is 2%
2% of a gallon is really pretty trival, to someone who focuses on the issue it may be a major concern but put into real world perspective we aren't speaking about a major health issue here.. I would suggest that windows be open if you have concerns to dilute the amount of alcohol you breathe. but 2% of something is almsot never an issue unless a person needs it to be..
Hmmm,, maybe I should have worded that last sentence differantly.
Lead based paints were hazardous if ingested because lead oxide pigments made up as much as 30% of the dry film. Lead-based secondary driers made up only a fraction of a percent.Driers made of cobalt, calcium and manganese salts comprise a fraction of a percent of the formula of present-day oil based paints (not made in China). A child would therefor have to eat huge quantities of toys to get enough heavy metal to cause him any harm.Most water based paints are latex and/or acrylic emulsions which do not use drying agents at all. Likewise, lacquers, shellac, and baked-on paints do not use driers.
BruceT
just wanted to know,
shellac.. you've been eating it all your life, they coat pills with it and a lot of candy..
plus it dries really quickly (15 minutes for the first coat to sanding) and is about as goof proof as you can get..
Once you use it for toys you can't wait to put it on other projects, it's that simple!
and really fine antiques use shellac because of the beauty it imparts to wood..
>> and really fine antiques use shellac because of the beauty it imparts to wood..Not to argue that Shellac does or does not make for a fine finish, but the reason it was used on antiques it that it was all they had at that time other than linseed oil.Howie.........
HowardAcheson,
Yes absolutely! I could of said that shellac is a proper finish because of orignality but that really doesn't tell us much about the beauty that shellac imparts to wood.. I cheated and took a short cut in an attempt to quickly convey the idea of a fine finish.
You are correct in that was one of the few finishes really available back then..
Avoid Chinese paint ;-)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Genuine Milk Paint is non-toxic when dry and kid safe.
http://www.milkpaint.com/
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