Replies

1. 
   flglide65 | Mar 11, 2006 09:10am | #1

   Try a full face shield like the wood turners use. My 11 y.o. likes it much better than goggles. The face shield , combined with a dust mask seems to work well.

1. 
   PJohn | Mar 11, 2006 09:29am | #2

   Good idea! Thanks for the feedback!---John
   =======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

2. 
   QCInspector | Mar 11, 2006 10:53am | #3

   http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42216&cat=1,42207

   http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=51239&cat=2,42407,33246&ap=1

   Some eye protection and gloves sized for kids.

   Another option is to go to a local Industrial Supplier that sells safety gear. They will have small sizes that may fit your little helper, and will probably check the fit if you bring him along.

   This is a company that sells tons of products, including the Personal Protective Equipment that your looking for.

   http://www.labsafety.com/

   My friend had his boy and 2 girls wearing safety gear in his shop starting from about age 2/3 years old (even if it didn't fit properly) when they came in to "help Daddy" or to work on their own projects (glue and color scraps). It was to habitualise them into wearing the PPE as they grew up. (He would kick them out when making lots of dust until the respirators fit.)

   It worked well. When they go into the shop they automatically put on whatever circumstances require without being asked.

   I was over a few months ago and the 15 year old daughter was preparing an old headboard that they scrounged up for paint. She was in a cloud of dust sanding with the Dynabrade 6" Random orbit, wearing the anti vibration gloves, ear muffs, half face cartridge mask, and safety glasses. She had been at it for hours when I showed up and when she took a break I asked her how it was going. She just said "Boring". Not a peep about all the gear.

1. 
   PJohn | Mar 12, 2006 12:02am | #5

   Well now, that's a bit of an embarrassment. As much time as I spend with my nose in the LV catalog, you'd think I'd have memorized it - including the kids' gear pages. Thanks much for the suggestions, folks - problem solved!Regards,---John=======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

3. 
   user-65718 | Mar 11, 2006 07:31pm | #4

   I don't make noise or dust yet when my 2 yr old son is in the shop but he helps me for several hours a week. He even has his own plane and a box of "his work". I keep my cutoff scrap box down on the floor so he can select his own lumber. He also likes to paint his projects with a brush and "varnish" (a cup of water).

   I look forward to the day when he can start really building his own things. I already have a copy of this book you might enjoy:
   http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32895&cat=1,44178&ap=1

   more kids stuff here:
   http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1&p=44178

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/11/2006 2:22 pm by Elliott Aldrich

   
4. 
   craig | Mar 12, 2006 05:38pm | #6

   There's a company in Northern Califormia that sells  safety glasses, goggles, hearing protection that fits children, as well as sizes for adults.   I can't remember thier name, but they advertise in some of the local trade pubs and WWing mags.   I picked some up at a woodworking show for my son (3 at the time).  Best money I ever spent on safety supplies.  He always reminds me of safety in the shop and raises his awareness level when in the shop. 

   Too bad his helmet and pads don't work as well for his bike riding and skateboarding. 

1. 
   PJohn | Mar 12, 2006 07:35pm | #7

   Hi, craig - Now *that's* tantalizing. If you should happen to recall the name of that oufit, I'd surely be grateful for a heads up! Thanks for the post.Regards,---John
   =======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

1. 
   Fred | Mar 13, 2006 10:09pm | #8

   Interesting answers you got.

   I'm interested in what else all you guys do as safety mesures for kids in your shops. I have a 20 months old that is on his way to become a serious helper, with one more expected for june.

   I do not make noise or dust while he is with me;

   As little power tools as possible;

   I try to assing a dedicated workbench space with ''kiddable'' tools so he stays in the same place and does not walk around too much;

   I put ceiling mounted swiches on my tools power lines so no tool will operate if I'm not in the shop;

   And then, I try to educate him as good as I can. And again, and again....

   Any more suggestions?

   Fred

    

1. 
   Buster2000 | Mar 14, 2006 01:45am | #9

   I put ceiling mounted swiches on my tools power lines so no tool will operate if I'm not in the shop

   One of the most overlooked and simple safety features in my shop.  When the electrician installed my 'machine power' out to the shop I had him add a kill switch.  I am able to kill and lock out all the power to the plugs in the garage shop, with the exception of two existing 110V plugs (most of the equipment is 220V now).

   The nice thing is the lights, garage door opener, and the two 110V plugs are all on a separate circuit, so if I do trip a breaker I still have light (and music...).

    

2. 
   PJohn | Mar 14, 2006 02:53am | #10

   Boy - I've feeling I'm gonna start WWIII here, but here goes:I'm an adult; kids are kids. All are people, but I have bigger muscles and can therefore do things they can't ... yet.My father, whom I worshipped, had a tool in my hands the moment I expressed interest and could navigate the shop without cracking my head. He never hid his switches or locked his drawers, and I never used a tool I wasn't authorized to handle. Period. Ever. If I had, it would have been a terrible disappointment to him, and that's the last thing I wanted. More of his ideas ...2 kids and 3 grandkids later, I have no locks on my cabinets and no hidden switches. Kids have a heap of respect for the tools because I've shown them, let them touch, explained, and demonstrated. The grandkids (11 and 8) have really good hands, and promise to be able to use the tools well. Can already sink a 3" nail dead-straight, though not with 2 blows. Can pull a nail (claws, ripping bar, or dikes), straighten a nail, discard safely, and clean the hammer. They know carpenter, framing, Warrington, and tack hammers, and can use each for its intended purpose. They know an engineer's hammer doesn't work well on nails, and they know that wood mallets are better woodwackers than steel heads.They know I'll not lead them astray, and know that I'll not let them use tools they're not prepared to handle. For instance - they wouldn't dream of touching a circular saw because they know about the teeth, have felt how sharp they are, have seen what it can do to a finger ... er, piece of wood, that is ... and have demonstrated to their satisfaction and mine that they haven't yet the arm strength to manipulate the thing as though it were a toy. When they can handle it, they'll learn to use it, and I can trust them not to cheat when I'm not there.They know chisels are sharper than scalpels, and they know that I've promised that I will teach them how to use them when they're ready. (Among other things, *strong* fingers, and rarely a drop.) In the meanwhile, we've pounded a zillion nails into redwood with their own smaller hammers, done a little sawing, hand-sanded several acres, and made some horrific messes (not so bad anymore) with paint and varnish.One thing I believe in quite firmly is to set them up to succeed. I never offer to teach them a tool trick until I'm confident that I can demonstrate a technique that they can actually use. As a result, they're successful, proud of their work, always asking for what's next, and willing to try anything. I *do* try to be aware of the wrenching or hammering or whatever that I think they might be able to successfully struggle with, and to save those chores for them when I can. Wrenches and screwdrivers and stuff that fits bikes and scooters do a good job of teaching some mechanical skills and building strength. (Even those simple tools have their dangers and tricks, and need some patient demonstration.) Usually, the job for those tools is a short one, and the kids can be proud of their work and back "on the road" pretty quickly. The teaching at that age should be incidental and fun IMHO - often difficult to relate to productive woodshop efforts.I believe that "too young is too young." My kids et al got into the shop at about 4-5 - when they could wave a small hammer around without hitting their heads. And,oh yeah, a "helper" job outside painting the house at age 2-3 (which lasted for all of 10 minutes), perhaps, but not much in the shop. It's really hard for very young children to make things, and it's frustrating for any kid to try and try and try ad nauseum without making much headway. (Kids need time to gain fine motor control, more muscle, etc.) I think it's better to wait just a little until there's greater likelihood of their being able to run in the house with a "look what I made!!" The wrenches and screwdrivers give them "I fixed it!", and that's no small thing.Always dust protection and eye protection in the woodshop. I don't believe in simple "because I said so" (though I'd invoke it in a heartbeat for their protection.) Rather, I get into how lungs work, how many years it may take for them to become irretrieveably ill, etc., then show how a simple dust mask will keep it away, and how a cartridge mask will help to keep fumes at bay. Ditto eyes. The lessons are enlarged as thier interest and knowledge indicate readiness. Always "wow" and "Thanks, Pop", but never refusal and never failure to follow 'em when I'm not around. (Their parents see them using right practices at their own homes without prodding.)I think it's an opportunity to gift the kids with knowledge, talents, satisfaction, self-reliance, independence, success, etc., and that it's therefore a welcome task to be approached with considerable caution and forebearance on my part. The last thing I want to do is allow them to come to harm, or to cause their enthusiasm to wane.So there's about a half-cent's worth ...Regards,---John
   =======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 14, 2006 03:33am | #11

   John,

   Congrats.  My 17 year old grandson is great with tools.  More of a mechanic.  Even has his pilot's license.

   I am having fun with my 2 year old grandson as well, although he is totally satisfied with anything with wheels on it. 

   Alan - planesaw

2. 
   PJohn | Mar 14, 2006 04:47am | #13

   Hi, Alan -(I appreciate your having the grace to translate your moniker into a name.)Super. It's great that you recognize and encourage their differences. Obviously, you're not proud of them ... ;)Y'know, we might not make expert wood butchers or mechanics or doctors of them, but if we care about 'em and love 'em enough, they'll somehow come out OK despite our efforts. What I'm saying is that if we remain sensitive to *their* needs and forget about our own aspirations for them, then the kids will prosper and come to create their own lives with considerable finesse. They just need someone behind 'em sayin' "good job!"- and perhaps lending a hand when it's needed.---John
   =======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

   Edited 3/13/2006 10:16 pm by PJohn

3. 
   craig | Mar 14, 2006 04:09am | #12

   John,

   Well said.  That's similar to how my upbringing was, but I had a bushel basket of scrap wood to work with.  I only 'created' with the wrong peice of wood once. 

   I use a similair philosophy with my son in the shop.  He knows what tools are sharp and stands out of the 'danger area'  or goes into the house when I use power tools.   He also knows what he is capable of and is comfortable with.  I don't push him to learn or complete something just to get it out of the way.  He has a shelf for his project to work on & he doesn't start anything until his other project is complete.

   I don't have to worry about him picking up something he shouldn't or turn on a power switch just to see what it does.  Now that I have moved into a neighborhood with lots of young children thier age, I need to worry more about the neighbors kids than my own.   

4. 
   PJohn | Mar 14, 2006 05:11am | #14

   Hi, Craig - You and PlaneSaw have made my day - though I suspect there will be a few low-flying zingers yet to come.I guess that each of us could write a fair-sized book of rules, practices, etc. devoted to decent shop experience for kids. I view any time with them as a life experience (or at least as an opportunity for one) and make it my responsibility as to whether or not it succeeds in the moment. Most important is that I love to be with them, as do they with me. Some of the most difficult for me lies in having a very strict view of safe practice and responsible behavior, but nonetheless keeping it fun and interesting for the kids within those boundaries. If I lead well, they'll follow. If I lead poorly, they'll follow. Gulp....Your concern is well-placed, IMHO. I have never, and could never have, made it comfortable for neighbors' children (or, alternatively, for my kids' friends) to even *be* in my shop. The tools - some my dad's and grandfather's - really are precious to me, and no buncha kids is gonna have free access. The dangers are omnipresent and loom large - and those "other" young folks have not had training at my hands - I don't know what they know. This is NOT a playground. If any of mine were to view it so cavalierly as to host friends there, we'd pause all visitation until the issue was resolved to my satisfaction (who's the adult here, anyway?) I'd love to have a young "apprentice" or the like once my own have flown the coop, but access to my domain is meanwhile limited to family. Neighbors know I love kids, but would never expect me to allow theirs into the danger zone. Were they to ask, I'd teach what I could. We've had some friendly conversations about the kids being welcome in the environs of our home, but not while I had things humming in the shop.Keep up the good work - sounds like yours is getting just what's needed, and I wish him - and you - success and greatest enjoyment of the (too-short-lived) opportunity to work together!Regards,---John
   =======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

5. 
   Fred | Mar 18, 2006 07:09pm | #15

   John.

   I totally agree with all you said, and I wish I can do as good a job at training my kids as you described. I also think that proper education is the key to succes, and the first and most important thing to look at when dealing with kids in the shop.

   But I cannot agree with you when you (seem to) say you are 100% confident that nothing will ever happen because you trained everyone properly. Haven't you ever had kickback on your tablesaw? Chisel slip and cut a finger? All sorts of accidents that we know how to prevent but still happen because they are, well,  accidents.  And, as you said, we are the adults after all!

   I like to see my shop as kind of HACCP certified for safety: nothing SHOULD happen because I trained my son the right way, and I'm reasonnably confident he is not going to touch the wrong things, but if this ever happens, I'll have the safety swiches, hard-to-reach dedicated drawer for chisels, and so on...

   Because I can't control everything. If only I could....

   I think your posting is very inspiring, and I deeply respect your opinion for it is clear and complete.  You gave me a good opportunity to look at my son and realise once again that fatherhood is by far the most beautiful yet challenging thing that ever happened to me.

   Have a nice day.

   Fred

6. 
   PJohn | Mar 18, 2006 10:59pm | #16

   Hi, Fred - Awww, shucks. Seriously, those kind words are sincerely appreciated, and I'm happy if some of my thinking has reinforced your own - you're obviously a nice guy and a good dad.Addressing your remarks in backwards order, I agree (with caveat) that parenthood is a singularly rewarding (and frustrating) gift on every imaginable plane. Lawsy, but I do love my kids. BUT - wait'll ya get to be a *GRANDPA* ... !!! If I may comment just a bit (you know I'm gonna) Opinions: I never said 100% - that was my own performance for *reason*. It's the *reason* that offers me a sort of faith-based confidence (no, not *that* faith.) Here goes...Underlying all of this is an understanding that most kids have capabilites far greater than usually recognized. They need only knowledge, experience, and growth to outdo most of us. They don't need much training in trust - if they're not trustworthy, you know it. If you don't know the downside to be true, then trust is in order.(This isn't some kind of treatise about *my* Dad or *my* opinions. It's about the fact that most of us receive our early impressions and training from our parents, and that fatherhood is therefore a sacred and overwhelmingly important responsibility in getting a young mind oriented to meaningful growth. We parents have a hexx of a challenge in *learning* the d..d truth and *living* it early enough for it to help our kids. Mentoring fits the same path.)My Dad said he trusted me, and he did. Because he did, I didn't violate his trust. Cause and effect, and it's an ingrained part of most of us. Stated otherwise, I believe that I have to walk the walk, because in its absence then talkin' the talk is just noise. I have an equal obligation not to violate the kids' trust in me. There is no *guarantee* that it will work - just the *faith* that it will (and knowledge that it nearly always does.) 100%? No. But 99% is 'way too low.[I just went through "I trust you" and then purposefully not hiding things. Walk the walk, talk the talk.]When I had a bunch of folks reporting to me, I'd tell them; "You have to earn my DIStrust." They all knew I'd entrusted them with $millions in product and machinery, and each was determined to prove that my automatic trust was well-placed. Over the years, I learned that about 1%-3% "stinkers" got past the ER Department in hiring, and that's out of the entire job-seeking populace. Compare the effort required to distrust and police 100% of a population, as opposed to the effort to discover and weed out just a few. AND - those I trusted returned record-breaking performance month after month after ... Trusting people offers them endorsement and inclusion, whereas forcing the earning of trust offers poor reputation and belligerent relationship (both undeserved). In which circumstance would YOU blossom?People, including kids, instinctively understand the unpleasant ramifications of having actually earned distrust - that's a hard one to undo, and is proof at their own hands of personal inferiority. It's an interesting and powerful psychology, in that reponsibility for reputation, recognition, etc., is placed squarely on the individual's shoulders. "You don't have to satisfy me (by earning my trust), you have to retain your own good reputation (by not earning my DIStrust.)" ... it makes the stakes both highly personal and self-directed.Kids are people. Treat 'em with dignity and respect, and you'll get it back in spades.(All the above is offered as a sort of plainspoken life experience, but the behavioral sciences support the position. I've long studied the plethora of profesional literature regarding workplace management, leadership, etc., and believe that they're all iterating a twist on the same basic truths. Embrace the basics, and the twists will appear as needed, methinks. I always tell folks that there are only a few real rules, such as "Be truthful." Problem is they're *hard*, and it takes work to figure out how to live them, and grit to do it.)Change gears:
   As it turns out, I seem to own at least two of nearly very common tool ever invented - framing, carpentry, cabinetmaking, bricklaying, concrete finishing, plumbing, electrical, painting, automotive, - you get the picture. As a result of having so many, there have arisen natural differences in the manner and locations in which they're housed. My chisels don't naturally store in the place where I keep tools the young'uns would use - they'd have to deliberately go someplace else in violation of my trust. Not hidden, not locked - just not in the place they should be getting into freely. Therefore and whereby, it's practical that I have the separate drawers, but they're not hard to reach ...My saw blades'll bite ya. My knives'll bite ya. Bits. Chisels. Drop a 3-lb hammer on yer foot, and see that cuts ain't everything. On and on, and I can't keep it all in a vault. My tools are arranged to satisfy MY needs regarding their use and protection. Touch the things you may, and don't be tempted by the ones you may not. I trust you. (I must, or otherwise ban you from the premises.)The education comes in explaining and demonstrating all, establishing understood and sensible boundaries, and investing trust (yes, while turning blue from holding your breath.) The risk inherent to trust is always a worry card, but I believe that trust strengthens kids ethically and early-on, and that it's worth the cost in anxiety on my part.Also, I think we need to be sensible in not over-assuming responsibility for everything that happens. You don't walk for your kids, nor do they have scooters with safety belts. If they're alive, they're going to have accidents. They're not perfect, and life's not perfect. I have some nasty scars to prove it. Hopefully, you'll have invested enough in training and trust that when they do inevitably get hurt, the damage is directly minimized by exercise of their knowledge.Lemme bore you with one more Dad lesson that still keeps me challenged. I was by no means an angel in my youth - nice kid, but I liked to live on the edge. One foible involved spinning out the family sedan and bending an axle on a curb. Dad's reaction was to sit down with me and calmly review the physics - math and all - of factors contributing to loss of control of a non-stationary mass. No anger, no remonstrance. (He knew I was already suffering mightily all on my own. I knew he had to be disappointed, angry, frustrated, and ready to kill me.) Then I got the car and went out. He said he trusted me, and even after a violation remained true to his word. Moral - decide what you think is right to do, then do it. Always. I have *never* forgotten that lesson, and I like to think that my own kids might have benefited from it.Best regards,---John=======================================================
   "What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
   monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
   ---Pericles

7. 
   pcooper | Mar 22, 2006 05:08am | #17

   I agree with you all 100%. I would rather my son be with me in the shop as anywhere else. He and I do some amazing things together, and we enjoy it. Besides, there is no other place on earth to get the right education that kids should get. You won't get any of this from video games and TV and all the horsing around that kids like to do these days. As long as our kids and grandkids are the ones running the country we will all survive, let the video freaks and couch potatoes do it and we'll all die a long and painful death. Just my opinion. :-)