I just realized I posted this to the joinery section. Here it is again.
While on the subject of wax finishes, I had new kitchen cabinets installed about 6 months ago, it is maple with mitered corners and raised panels. It came stained and lacquered to a satin finish. The existing color is a tea color, almost like craft paper. I have been thinking about putting a grey/reddish grey tint on it with a kind of a wiping finish, then a liming finish with Mylands liming wax. I know the liming wax shouldn’t be a problem but what kind of a wiping finish would you guys and gals suggest? The girl at the corner paint store (and she is very knowledgeable) told me that there is no such thing as a stain that can be applied to a lacquered finish. Well, of course the lacquer sealed the sruface and no stain will penetrate it. What about some kind of thinned down paint or gel stain that just sit on top of the lacquer, which would also produce a little of a streaky effect which is what is desired, then let dry and apply the liming wax. Would there be a compatibily or adhesion problem? Or can I tint a clear wax and use it as the tint then put the final coat of liming wax after? Are there any other alternatives? Any suggestion would be much appreciated.
Tom
Option
Replies
Tom,
Have you considered using a toner? You can get toners in almost any color. They come in aerosol cans and are very easy to apply. They are usually lacquer based, so theres no problem spraying it on top of a lacquer finish. Toners are used specifically for the kind of application you're considering: to adjust the color of finished wood.
In case you don't know, toners are very dilute, but by applying more coats you can build to virtually any degree of color saturation you want. The only caveat is that they are opaque. The more you spray on the more the grain of the wood is hidden; but there's no problem with just a few coats. In the application you're talking about I don't think obscuring the grain would be a problem. But, as always, experiment!
Alan
Thank you for your suggestion. I used toner before but it didn't occur to me that I could use it in this application. Do you think I can wipe it on instead of spraying it because I'd really like to see a rub on look instead of an even tint. Besides I don't think I can get a finish that look even on all doors with a spray can. Or what if I spray it on and rub it with lacquer thinner so the raised areas would appear lighter, highligting the profile of the doors. I do have a spare door I can try first.
Tom
TOM; How certain are you that the cabinets have a lacquer finish? If they are comercial cabinets they almost certainly have a conversion varnish finish. If it is lacquer, is it nitrocellulose, pre-catalyzed, or post-catalyzed lacquer? Before you add layers to the finish you must be certain of the existing finish so that you add the proper materials in the proper sequence.
If the finish is nitrocellulose lacquer, I'd suggest a glaze instead of a toner. Glazing stains are designed to be "sandwiched" between layers of a finish. A toner IS a good choice for an experienced finisher, but the opportunities for error are many. With a oil-base glaze stain, you can control the color very precisely and if you don't like it you can wipe it off with mineral spirits and start over. Once you spray a toner, the only way back is to strip and start over. After applying the glaze and allowing it to dry overnight, spray a coat of NC lacquer to seal the color. Follow with your liming wax.
If the coating on the cabinets is not NC lacquer, find out exactly what it is and who makes it. Depending on the coating, you may be able to spray a coat of vinyl sealer, glaze, and then spray a coat of NC lacquer.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Good point. These are commercial cabinets so the next step would be to find out exactly what the finish is. I can ask the rep from the manufacturer, I have talked to him before. I thought oil base glaze cannot be applied over NC lacquer because it wouldn't adhere to it. Do I really need to reseal whatever I put on to tint? Would the liming wax be good enough to form a protecting layer? I don't have access to a lacquer spraying facility.
Tom
Tom; From the description of the effect you described in your response to Alan, a glaze seems the best choice. Oil base glazes dry slower than water-base glazes and you have more time to work the glaze and get the look you want. Glazes are made to be used between coats of finish - NC lacquer is a very good choice when using oil-base glazes. I don't know if furniture use oil-base glazes are formulated any differently than the glazes you get at the paint store. If you decide to use glaze, my recommendation would be to get it from a wood finishing supplier (just to be safe).
You can use wax to get the coloring effect also - but you should consider it "temporary." Wax doesn't last forever, especially in a hot, humid kitchen. You may have to re-color your cabinets every six months or so (maybe sooner). Also, you cannot top one wax with another. The solvent in wax will dissolve the previous coat of wax and when you rub off the white haze, you will be left with a single coat of wax. There is no such thing as a "wax build-up" - it's a myth perpetuated by furniture polish companies. If you apply a colored wax, you can remove the wax from the high points with a cotton rag and mineral spirits and leave the recessed areas alone.
It is necessary to seal in a glazing stain. The binders in the stain will not stand up to daily use nearly as well as a coat of lacquer (two coats would be better).
Paul
F'burg, VA
Paul, thank you so much and thanks for clearing up that wax build-up myth. I guess I have to find out exactly what's the existing finish is and I'll definitely get back to you on this. One more thing, isn't an oil base glaze similar to a tinted varnish? Or are they different altogether?
Tom
Tom; My knowledge of the chemical properties of various finishing materials is pretty limited. I have learned what works with what and only a little about why they work.
Oil base glazes can use oil or varnish as a binder - but the glaze contains other ingredients that help it spread out evenly and achieve even coloring over the sealed surface of the item being glazed. It also has ingredients to ensure it dries properly, adhering to the first layer and following layers of finish. Glaze stain is not recommended on bare wood. I think of glaze solely as a coloring agent like a stain - only it has to be used bewteen coats of a film forming finish.
Manufacturers set limits on the amount of coloring you can add to their film forming finish (like varnish). The added coloring makes the film weaker and it provides less protection. Too much coloring makes the film too weak to do it's job (that's how I think of glaze).
So to answer your question - I think an oil base glaze and a colored varnish can have a lot in common, but the colored varnish will form a stronger, more durable film than the glaze will.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Thank you for you explanation. Somebody had suggested tinted shellac, any comments?
Tom
If it is a laquer finish. Why not just spray with a tinted laquer. Most decent paint store will tint it for you or you can add the tint yourself for the desired look. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
TOM; Tinted shellac is a toner and is best applied by spraying for even coloring. Shellac is not very durable and will not stand up to kitchen use.Paul
F'burg, VA
I'll often use shellac for this. Just had an oak table with the finish damaged by spilling fondue fuel. Garnet shellac matched the toner they typically use on oak. Since shellac is compatible with most other finishes, I topped it with urethane. In other cases where you're mixing a toner, you'll typically put a clear coat on top. If the binder for the toner has a different solvent than the clear coats, it makes it easier to control and remove any mistakes.
Gerry
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