Replies

1. 
   notDusty | Sep 22, 2004 05:10pm | #1

                      ASK,

           It sounds like all the weight of the cabinet will be relying on the 1/4" back. IMO you would be better off screwing the cabinets to the wall / studs. It may make adjusting them and leveling them easier. Some Euro boxes are built with a 1/2" recess behind a 1/4" back with 1/2" screw rails behind the back , this way you are screwing through 3/4" , then into the walls.Usually there is at least 1 strip at the top and bottom of the back. Often times an installation washer or washer head screws are used so you don't suck the screws through the back.

                       hope this helps                     dusty 

1. 
   ASK | Sep 22, 2004 06:14pm | #3

   Dusty,

   Thanks that's what I was trying to explain I wanted to do. 

   ASK

2. 
   JohnWW | Sep 22, 2004 05:23pm | #2

   ASK,

   Commonly done, it's called a French cleat.  Only one cleat is used at the top edge, getting two strips, one at the top and the other at the bottom, perfectly aligned isn't practical.  The one cleat, if it is solidly attached to the wall, can handle the weight easily.    

   Use one continuous strip for each run of cabinets, notching the back edges of the cabinets, except the end ones, to go over the strip.  Don't forget to make the notches long enough to allow the cleats to ride over each other when the cabinets are being hung.

   If you are in earthquake country put screws through the cabinet backs into the wall mounted cleat after the cabinets are in place.

   John W. 

1. 
   ASK | Sep 22, 2004 06:17pm | #4

   john W,

   Yes only one cleat at the top. The bottom would would be only attached to the cabinet to allow me to screw it to the wall after the cabinets are level.

   thanks

   ASK

3. 
   TomT226 | Sep 23, 2004 02:01pm | #5

   As far as the backs go, use 1/2" Baltic Birch.  Finishes up nice, and will support the weight of a filled cab better than 1/4".

   Fitting cabs to a wavy wall is simple.  Find a good straight piece of 1X as long as the run of cabs.  Place it against the wall and mark the low spots.  Do this at the ceiling and just above the base of the cab run.  Find and mark the studs.  Cut shims and screw or nail them to the low spots.  Make a note of the position of the shims so you don't try to drive a screw into them.

   When you mount the cabs, screw a piece of 1X to the wall to set the cab bases on while installing.  Mark and pre drill holes for flanged head (not sheet rock) screws.  Place one unit at a time on the wall, and attach with a couple of screws, leaving them loose.  Screw the cabs together, and tighten the screws in the backs last.  Use your framing square to make sure you havn't racked any of the boxes.

   Good luck.

1. 
   ASK | Sep 23, 2004 03:52pm | #6

   Tom

   thanks for the advise. While cleaning up and throwing awaw some old catalogues I found a good article in Wood Magizine from October 2001 about redoing a Kitchen. Good basic info about constructing and installing new kitchen cabinets.

   ASK

2. 
   gdavis62 | Sep 27, 2004 04:49am | #11

   How do you know that 1/4" backs fail?  Did you do destructive testing?

   How would you size the stone piers that support the Brooklyn bridge?

1. 
   jackplane | Sep 27, 2004 05:05pm | #12

   A fully loaded cabinet can weigh several hundred pounds. I would not not trust that to be supported by a 1/4" back, unless the cleat was tied into the carcass sides.

   Not building it in such a way could lead to disastrous callbacks.

1. 
   shake_n_stir | Sep 27, 2004 05:53pm | #13

   I question the value of a cabinet back whether 1/2 inch or 1/4 for anything other than looks!  I have been in dozens of older houses, including my parent's, and none of the cabinets ahve backs.  The cabinets have a 1 x 4 clet across the top for screwing them to the wall.  I don't recall how the sides are attached to the tops or the bottoms to the sides, but my mother has one upper with a full set of china (12) and her daily dishes as well.  Ain't heard a big crash yet.

   I would build cabinets with backs because I would never want to repaint the wall inside the cabinet, but I would not do it for unnecessary strength.

   Most like the young bucks on the board have never seen such a thing, becasue in this prosperous age everyone wants the beauty of a wood back and the exact hundred buck cost is nothing.

1. 
   jackplane | Sep 27, 2004 06:08pm | #14

   That's all true. On older cabinets the cleat is tied into the top, and also the sides, because it could tip forward without this, especially in earthquake country.

     China hutches are self-supporting and need no cleats.

   Edited 9/27/2004 11:10 am ET by JACKPLANE

2. 
   Fingrs | Sep 27, 2004 06:30pm | #16

   Wanted to share something I learned a month or so back.  (BTW, in keeping with the subject ot the thread, I use 1/2" baltic birch or maple ply for cabinet backs.) 

   One of the kitchens I'm working on has a wall without studs...it's drywall glued to brick.  When it came time to hang upper cabinets, I was dreading the task, but the general contractor, who's Irish, showed me a trick they use in Ireland where all exterior walls are solid. 

   We put the upper cabinets in place sitting on little "stools" I knock together from scrap.  When all is level and plumb, you drill a 1/4" hole through the cabinet back and at least 1" into the masonry.  Insert a 1/4" hardwood dowel in the hole (some glue it in but that's not necessary), trim it flush with the inside cabinet surface, and drill a small pilot hole in the dowel.  Insert 1 1/4" screws with large flat heads into the pilot hole and drive them home.  Ta da!  perfect wall anchor!

   Works beautifully and very quickly. 

3. 
   jackplane | Sep 27, 2004 07:49pm | #17

   Neat!

4. 
   shake_n_stir | Sep 27, 2004 07:59pm | #18

   You apparantly missed the point about the china.  I was not talking about a china hutch.  My point was taht my mother keeps her china and daily dishes all in one upper cabinet and that unit does not have a back.  That is one heavy load in a cabinet.  And the backless version works fine.

   As I said, I think the back is for cosmetics.  I am sure it also makes it less likely to rack as it is hung.  The face frame also helps to prevent rack, but not nearly as well as a back would.  But, if one is careful when hanging there is no need to rack the case.

5. 
   lwj2 | Sep 28, 2004 01:01am | #19

   Lots of discussion back and forth here.

   I'm a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, last time I put a cabinet in, I was concerned about it falling with a heavy load. (Kids and cats that climb.)

   I used a 2x4 across the back with a french cleat, lagbolted to the studs and secured to the cabinet with No. 10 screws. The ex- told me that when she re-did the kitchen, the contractor cursed me up one side and down the other as he took it out. Admired the way I did it, tho.

   Regards,

   Leon Jester

   Roanoke VA

6. 
   notDusty | Sep 28, 2004 05:46pm | #20

             shake  n  stir  ,

      I would have to agree with you mostly about cabinet backs. In some states the building codes may require backs however I generally use backs only on sections with displays or glass areas . All my free standing work of course gets backs, but honestly as you said on face frame case work once the cabinet is screwed to the wall IMO it is a moot point whether or not there is a back. I always test the cabinets by supporting my weight from them , a load way over what will ever be in that one spot.When my clients see me hanging from the cabinets they get a certain feeling of security , and realize they are not going to fall. That strength in ,my opinion is a good example of the structural integrity and difference from pre fab cabinets , with or without a back I don't think a pre fab has the same back bone as custom .

                                         dusty

4. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Sep 23, 2004 04:13pm | #7

   ASK

   A really quick reply before I head off to  bed.

   The cabinets are not supported by the wall, they're supported by a plinth that you make and sit the boxes onto.  The front face of the plinth becomes the kicker/kickboard.

   The cabinets are screwed to the wall only to stop them moving off the plinth - it's not really a load bearing application

5. 
   SEBDESN | Sep 24, 2004 03:18am | #8

   An addendum to what every one else said. In the grand scheme of things, I have found it better, (not that much more loot, and I don't have to schlep those damn 90# sheets of melamine mdf around), to buy the boxes from some one like Cab Parts. They are surprisingly reasonable.

1. 
   ASK | Sep 24, 2004 04:10pm | #9

   Sebdesn,

   thanks for the tip.

   downloaded their catalogue.

   ASK

6. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Sep 25, 2004 08:21pm | #10

   You might consider Euro-style hanging rails for the uppers.   These were developed in Europe, where homes are older, and they aren't always straight and true.   The hanging rails are slick systems which let you adjust the positions of each box after you've hung it on the wall -- kinda like the Euro-style cup hinges.  It is like a french cleat, but with adjustablility.  One example is from Blum.  At Woodworkers Hardware, the rail is http://www.wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm?ProductID=B048S120 and the left hanging bracket is http://www.wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm?ProductID=B048N0510%2E03L%20WH.

1. 
   migraine | Sep 27, 2004 06:20pm | #15

   Boy, those things bring back memories.  I still have a case of them floating around somewhere.

   My preference is the 3/4" cleat without the knotch and I leave just enough room at the top of the cabinets to slip shims in.  Set all the cabinets on the cleat, screw them together, shim them top and bottom, and then screw them to the wall.  This top gap is then covered with a crown moulding.