Replies

1. 
   Floss | Apr 17, 2006 10:44pm | #1

   Two ideas that come to mind are bolting together with shallow mortise and tenon and mortise and tenon with pins either draw bored or not. Probably not necessary to draw bore since there will not be a whole lot of stress on the joints.

   Bolts are probably the easiest and fastest to construct with mortise and tenon going together faster since you don't have to turn a bunch of nuts.

   J.P.

   http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
1. 
   skidkid | Apr 18, 2006 06:10am | #4

   Thanks for the suggestions JP,

   I used bolts on my workbench's long  stretchers with through mortises; like a rock as they say; never thought of short mortises; is this for appearance or clearance or both?

   Just occurred to me that only the long aprons and stretchers have to be disassembled; the rest can remain as frames.

    

1. 
   Floss | Apr 18, 2006 02:57pm | #5

   Short mortises and tenons just to register the stretchers and add a little more rigidity to the whole thing. Probably not necessary for a drafting table but may aid in the assembly as far as alignment.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

2. 
   Midnight | Apr 18, 2006 03:18am | #2

   have you thought about through tennons and wedges...??

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   skidkid | Apr 18, 2006 05:41am | #3

   Jist a wee doch'n doris???

   No Mike, I never thought about through tenons and wedges; I am still at the sketching stage; moving stretchers around from the front of the leg to the back to the middle and what happens at the corner where 2 stretchers meet; should I stagger the heights; one high and one low or...or...

   To add to the challenge, I've since added some storage at the back; this storage is an old mahogany dresser with 8 drawers; cut off the top and legs and slide it in to sit on the lower back stretcher.

   How do you do tenons and wedges at the corners with 2 adjacent stretchers meeting?

   Thanks for the suggestion.

1. 
   Midnight | Apr 19, 2006 02:46am | #7

   How do you do tenons and wedges at the corners with 2 adjacent stretchers meeting?

   Simple answer is to tweak your dsign a bit to suit the joint you want to use... Personally I liked the look of the wedged through tennons that hold the bed I built together... Just to make things interesting I made em tusk tennons... perfectly suited to the generously sized side rails I used... The wedges kept the finished project a pure organic form; no mechanical fixings used anywhere in the project...

   Bottom line is if the idea's no good, toss it out in favour of something more suitable... that's part of the fun of designing a piece..

   Sounds like a grand project btw..Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   skidkid | Apr 19, 2006 05:31am | #9

   Here's the latest Mike, comments welcome.

   All through tenons; the long removable stretchers wedged; the short fixed stretchers glued and pinned with contrasting dowels, probably acacia.

   The storage dresser will be slide in; left loose.

   Footrest will have let in acacia wear strip.

   Mahogany stain if the boat comes in.

   When this piece is completed it is possible that future designs will not be done on the back of napkins.

    

1. 
   Midnight | Apr 20, 2006 02:55am | #13

   Sounds like the project plan is evolving from an interesting and useful project to one with class too.. There's a lot to be said for off the shelf KD hardware, but to my mind they always involve a compromise somewhere.. huge access holes for wrenches, channels to clear bolt threads, covers to hide bolt heads etc... To my mind there's a lot to be said aesthetically for a simple wedge.. dead simple to make, bullet proof in strength and you can make a feature of it too.. Does it get any better...? Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

2. 
   skidkid | Apr 20, 2006 05:39am | #15

   It gets better with a pint (Imperial of course) and fish and chips in newspaper while designing.

   Wedges will probably be acacia to match the dowels; the wood is black and shiny and reminds me of coal; think it IS bulletproof.

   Slange e vah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    

3. 
   Midnight | Apr 21, 2006 02:22am | #16

   just remember t gi yer hands a wipe before ya picj up the pencil...god knows where it'll shoot off to if you forget...  ;)

   <raisin glass..

   Slange Vaar..Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

3. 
   BMilton | Apr 18, 2006 11:56pm | #6

   Just a thought - how about the kind of bolts used in bed frames? They seem to hold real ridgid.

   Bob

    

1. 
   skidkid | Apr 19, 2006 04:55am | #8

   Thanks for the suggestion Bob,

   I'm leaning away from mechanical fasteners.

4. 
   cowtown | Apr 19, 2006 10:41am | #10

   I certainly appreciate the ethic involved in wanting to make one of these beasts. I personally cannot understand why a lot of engineer/architect type simply tossed this stuff in the garbage 20 years ago..

   But I cannot appreciate yer concept of using cedar for a core box top.

   To start with, it is in my practical observation dimensionally unstable when it comes to humidity and temp changes. Moverover it is inherently soft, so clamping one of them 5'ish adjustable arms on it (I checked the clamps on my arms, and they will accomodate 2" thickness) will certainly crush the wood.

   I took a peruse through a 1954 K&E catalogue, at a place in time that is damn near the apogee of manual drafting and there is no mention of cedar at all. Lower grade tables are pine/basswood with hardwood stabilizing battens, and the type of table you describe are without exception specified as "hardwood" .

   If you want I can scan the illustrations, including an x-section of the tops for Hudson drawing tables (which is incidentally only 1 1/16" thick). Just let me know. Perhaps you could derive some construction details from the illustrations.

   If you got the interest in seeing them, I also have other 50ish drafting catalogues that I can look into. Glad to help out if it is of interest.

   I daresay that the bonus of doing the 4-legged version is to be able to incorporate the drawer units underneath which are typically used to store instruments, That being said, these table-types are using a fair chunk of floor real-estate, which in my mind, and in my experience, is simply disproportionate to their utility.

   You simply cannot tilt the table vertical and push it up against a wall, ergo, you just got another flat surface to put things on, and one on which you don't want to use for non-drafting tasks for fear of damage.

   Let me know if you want the scans from the catalogues.

   Eric
   in Cowtown

1. 
   skidkid | Apr 19, 2006 05:55pm | #11

   Hello Eric,

   You bring back many memories and lots of good points; I spent the last 20 years in front of a massive wooden table, Dietzgen; couldn't see shipping it here at $1.25 a pound so gave it to my children; now I wish I had shipped it; it was KD.

   The "cedar" we use locally is very heavy, reddish brown in color, smells like cedar and is sticky inside in spots when ripped, not soft at all; I call it cedar; perhaps Hoadley fans can help out here; I think it comes from South America; I get it at the landfill.  The alternative is mahogany; I do have some pieces but they are about 7X10X70 inches and I have no band saw yet; you need 2 men and a boy just to move them.

   The top will be a torsion box; light grid frame and 2 skins of BB plywood; top skin about half inch; bottom about quarter inch; glued and brads; reinforcing blocks at the hinges and tilt mechanism attach points.

   I do agree these beasts have an enormous footprint; not for everybody; space is not an issue but the door opening will not accomodate large pieces.

   I would love to get your info on Hudson tables for construction methods or any other table for that matter; the Dietzgens used lots of iron for reinforcing the corners; many eyebolts and screws; I would like to avoid this mass production/assembly system; also they used metal channels over the breadboardy ends.

   This table will get used a lot for design; no more napkins.

1. 
   Newlimey | Apr 20, 2006 02:51am | #12

   Hi - Anywhere in your design you could use those two part aluminium interlocking biscuits?  - Newlimeyq;:)

1. 
   skidkid | Apr 20, 2006 05:19am | #14

   Hello Limey,

   The only metal in the design will be for the hinged top; one pair of ball bearing butts from an old door and maybe a few brads during glue up of the torsion box.

   Thanks for the suggestion.

2. 
   cowtown | Apr 21, 2006 09:17am | #17

   hey send me yer email, and I'll scan what I got for pix. No problem. As I said, I understand totally yer wish to do this. My email, minus the xxxx at the front and back is [email protected] xxxx.Dietzgen...... ya! OK. Up here in Canada we got Hughes Owens. Now tell me ya ain't got a slide rule collection. Eric in Calgary

1. 
   skidkid | Apr 21, 2006 06:54pm | #18

   No slide rules; how about a book of logarithms.

   Email address sent separate under KNOCKDOWN.

1. 
   cowtown | Apr 25, 2006 08:10am | #19

   oh I take a lot of ribbing for this passion I have for drafting stuff. OTOH, when folks are bidding against each other for Starrett and Stanley trammel points, drafting beam compasses go for substantially less on the on-line autions, despite their higher precision. Although most folks know that a WWing shop needs a set of scale rulers, french curves and the standard triangles, stuff like ellipsographs, 10 point dividers, etc do find periodic application. These devices were the epitomy of layout tools 50 years ago, and they STILL WORK!The slide rule is the original cordless solar calculator....if the sun is shining you can read it. Want a tangent for an angular construct, half the time yer calculator batteries has died on ya. Besides, it drives folks nuts when you pull it out and use it. Eric....
   And a donut don't cost a dollar yet.....not when you buy em by the dozen!

2. 
   skidkid | Apr 25, 2006 06:49pm | #20

   and a donut dont cost a dollar yet.............

   They do here and they are awful; the dunkin guys would make a fortune if they could only get a foot on the island.

   Only one franchise here; the chicken guy; and it is terrible, simply dreadful stuff; think they use seagulls.

   Still draggin leads.

   Slange e va.